BS: Indian or Native American?

Subject: RE: BS: Indian or Native American?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Mar 03 - 04:32 PM

As a kid, no-one ever talked about American Indians, they were Red Indians. I was very disappointed when I found they weren't actually red.

Subject: RE: BS: Indian or Native American?
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 16 Mar 03 - 03:21 PM

If I talk to one of the members of the nearby Tsuu-T'ina Nation, he would laugh if I called him a "first nation." He is a Tsuu-T'ina or an Indian; "First Nations" is used only when they or outsiders are making speeches or lobbying about something or other.

And please do not confuse Inuit with Indians.

Subject: RE: BS: Indian or Native American?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 16 Mar 03 - 02:16 PM

Best to lose the term "noble." It's an artifact and is not appreciated by most Indians I know.

Subject: RE: BS: Indian or Native American?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Mar 03 - 02:02 PM

My two cents

I believe the precise, correct term would be North America Aborignal.
Of course Aboriginal has come to be associated only with "Native Australians"

I think enough people probably know who Geronimo was that you could call him what you wanted to and folks would understand. I think the name you choose will be a big factor in how you want to characterize him. If you want to portray him as a savage who preyed on "white" settlers then Indian is a perfect word. But If you are going to protray him as something more noble, then you would do well to explain what the term "indian" means to you.

Look at what you want to say. Think about the message, the right word will come to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Indian or Native American?
From: Nemesis
Date: 16 Mar 03 - 01:42 PM

Thanks everyone .. the context of the talk being given (Title: Geronimo didn't build casinos: The American Indian in Myth and Reality) is about representations of them in films (notoriously "DWW") making them footnotes to Frontier history and how "we" want them to be, rather than how they actually were or are ..

So, as an all embracing name I guess "American Indians" ..(qualified as indigenous peoples) ... just wanted to get it as near correct as poss (if not (clumsily?) politically correct **g**)
Interesting discussion though, it's turned out to be!

Subject: RE: BS: Indian or Native American?
From: Mooh
Date: 16 Mar 03 - 07:28 AM

Okay, so I'm Canadian...First Nations or Indigenous Peoples.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: BS: Indian or Native American?
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 Mar 03 - 07:11 AM

In many ways this reminds my of the recent "Redneck" thread, as well as earlier threads that discussed "Blue Tailed Fly" and the infamous "N-word".

As someone in an earlier thread said, "We can tell when a word is used as an insult." I never considered "Indian" an insult until "Native American" came around, and I thought that a lousy construction. (Mind you, I grew up in a racially mixed neighborhood and never even heard the word "nigger" until I got to high school. When we played "Cowboys and Indians" everyone wanted to be Indians, because they always won.)

Subject: RE: BS: Indian or Native American?
From: artbrooks
Date: 16 Mar 03 - 02:22 AM

KUNM, in Albuquerque

Subject: RE: BS: Indian or Native American?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 16 Mar 03 - 12:11 AM

Art, are you in Albuquerque? That's the only place I've heard that program with any regularity. What are the call letters of the station?

Subject: RE: BS: Indian or Native American?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Mar 03 - 12:11 AM

Native American is a silly term, rather like African-American, I think. It's a clumsy attempt to mollify people who are trying desperately to be "modern" and politically correct, which is their psychological problem, not mine. However, if it makes them happy to say Native American, that's okay with me. I can't see why it makes them unhappy if I say "Indian" or American Indian in the context of a conversation where it is plainly obvious that I do not mean people from India.

First Nations is another clumsy term, and could actually be a misleading one in some cases. The American Indians were and are a people of many nations, some of which have displaced others out of various areas of land in very ancient times...so who was really first?

Then you've got the Inuit.

What difference does it make what you call American Indians as long as the context makes it clear whom you are referring to, and it's not a deliberately insulting or pejorative term?

"Call me any name you like, I will never deny it" - Bob Dylan

"A rose by any other name would smell as sweet." - Shakespeare

Names are temporary labels, nothing more. When the fashion changes, so may the name. It doesn't matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Indian or Native American?
From: artbrooks
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 10:45 PM

I listen regularly to a radio program called "Native America Calling", which is for, by and about Indians. (And no, I'm not one, but they discuss a lot of interesting issues.) The people on it, except for the occasional Washington bureaucrat who is required to be politically correct, invariably use the word "Indian", without any "American" attached to it.

Subject: RE: BS: Indian or Native American?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 10:28 PM

It is best to use the tribal affiliation, such as Apache, Lummi, Taino, Choctaw, etc.

People who are Indians generally prefer American Indian over the politically correct "Native American" if you have to use a label. Most Indians simply call themselves Indians.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Indian or Native American?
From: Sorcha
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 09:49 PM

My Mescalero Apache friend says Apache is just fine. He hates Native American and prefers Indian to that.

Subject: RE: BS: Indian or Native American?
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 09:01 PM

I, too, like "First Nations" and applaud Canadians for thinking it up.

But I'll use "Indians" or "American Indians" or, better, refer to the nation of the person.

As a Potawattomi once said to me, "God, don't call me a Native American! Anybody born here is a native. Call me a Potawattomi or, if you really must, an Indian."

Subject: RE: BS: Indian or Native American?
From: X
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 09:00 PM

I'm one of the American Indigenous People you speak of. All I have to say is..."I say "tomato" you say "tomato" let's call the whole thing off!"

Subject: RE: BS: Indian or Native American?
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 08:51 PM

Oh christ, if you run into someone whose ancestry you think might include pre-columbian indigenes, ask them how they want their ethnicity described. For me, "Abekani" is fine (just don't ask me to prove it since it's only family legend).

Subject: RE: BS: Indian or Native American?
From: open mike
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 07:52 PM

how about indigenous?
i, too , like the canadian term first nations,
but that would need an explanation,,or would it?>

Subject: RE: BS: Indian or Native American?
From: Haruo
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 07:42 PM

I agree, Nicole, that Chiricahua or Mescalero would be an improvement over plain Apache, although the "wide variety of cultures and regions" subsumed under "Apache" is not nearly as wide as that under "Native American" or "American Indian", and from the . Whether Goyathlay would particularly care, I am not sure. And what about "Bedonkohe Apache" (the group he was born into)? There appears to have been a great deal of fluidity among the Chiricahua and their near neighbors as to which bands were regarded as which "kind" of Apache. For people who are not really politically organized above the village level, and even more when the villages are nomadic in location, this is a normal state of affairs (something similar obtained here in the Northwest Coast region); it was the exigencies of the treaty-making and reservation-allocating process that was largely to credit or blame for the firm identification of "tribes" among groups like the Apache or the Puget Sound Salish.

I will agree with Guest that "American Indian" works as far as it goes (though the young lady who died in the recent shuttle disaster, whose name escapes me, is proof of the ambiguity of that solution, too...)

Most Native Americans and/or American Indians with whom I am acquainted do not make a big deal of the terminology, and when they do, they are just as lacking in unanimity on the subject as Euro-Americans like me who pontificate on the subject. Same goes for Alaskan Eskimos, many of whom are not Inuit but Yupik; if asked whether they are "Alaska Native" they will say yes, but if asked open-endedly for their ethnicity they will say "Eskimo". In my experience.

Haruo

Subject: RE: BS: Indian or Native American?
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 07:25 PM

As a member of the Southwestern Association for Indian Arts, promoting Indian Arts with the historic Indian Market and awards in Santa Fé every year, I see no need for the cumbersome Native American. We speak of Native American Arts in some literature.

Website: SWAIA

Subject: RE: BS: Indian or Native American?
From: Midchuck
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 07:24 PM

"Native American" doesn't work, because I am, literally speaking, an native American, even though I'm only 1/64 or 1/128, or maybe less...one of those people we're talking about. I was born in the USA. Native American. Q.E.D.

"Indian" doesn't work because they aren't from India, or anywhere near there. Columbus was just plain lost.

I asked someone who worked in some kind of teaching or social function on a reservation, what they themselves preferred, and she said, as suggested above, to use the particular Nation or tribe name, instead of any generic one. But you don't always know what it is.

I kind of like the Canadian term, "First Nations." But if we adopt it, the Canadians are likely to think of themselves as entirely too clever, so that's no good either...

Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: Indian or Native American?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 06:59 PM

american indian works....

Subject: RE: BS: Indian or Native American?
From: NicoleC
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 06:50 PM

I suspect Geronimo would prefer to be called Chiricahua Apache, or even Mescelero instead of lumped in with a generic term for a wide variety of cultures and religions.

Subject: RE: BS: Indian or Native American?
From: Haruo
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 06:49 PM

If it's specifically about Geronimo, how about calling him Apache? Calling him a Native American is about as meaningful as calling Julius Caesar (or Boadicea!) a Native Eurasian, don't you think? You might also call him, at least parenthetically, by his proper name, Goyathlay. (As Crazy Horse really ought to be called Taśunka Witco, Chief Joseph — Hinmatuyalatkeht, Chief Seattle — si?aL, etc.

Haruo

Subject: RE: BS: Indian or Native American?
From: SINSULL
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 06:32 PM

Native American is what I hear most. When "Indian" is used it is almost always followed by "American Indian, not India Indian."

Subject: RE: BS: Indian or Native American?
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 06:19 PM

I once did some research on this very subject. The answer is there is no right answer. Here is a link that might help:

Ojibwe web site

Subject: BS: Indian or Native American?
From: Nemesis
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 05:47 PM

Putting together publicity for our festival .. there's a talk about Geronimo ..etc etc

Help! What do the USA's Native people prefer to be called these days .. IS it Indians? Or is it still Native Americans? The person giving the talk says these days it's "Indians" ..

People of the Tribes - if you're out there please help .. Ethnologists / New Agers .. thank you but, let's hear it from Crazy Horse's own mouth please?

Thanks