BS: Get out of debt now!

Subject: BS: Get out of debt now!
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 11:31 AM

If you go to the Congressional legislation search engine and type in H.B. 975 you'll see new national bankruptcy legislation. GWBush and the Republicans passed this in Texas and made it harder to qualify under state law for bankruptcy, and not it's going nation-wide.

Now that so many people are in debt up to the eyeballs, they're going to change the rules so you can't declare bankruptcy. So if that was your plan, you'd better do it NOW.

If and when the war with Iraq starts, American Airlines and/or United Airlines will fold. If both do, 150,000 unemployed overnight. And that's just the beginning of that one little problem...support services and the ripple effect will put no telling how many out of work. I've heard lots of economists lately talking about a 'Perfect Storm' coming up...where one financial disaster will trigger another and lead to the collapse of banking as we know it. Not much you can do about that, but you can look to your debt. And H.R.975 WILL be passed in all likelihood, so if you plan to declare bankruptcy, you'd better do it now.

Subject: RE: BS: Get out of debt now!
From: jimmyt
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 12:05 PM

Oh, and by the way, Guest forgot to mention.................THE SKY IS FALLING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!run for your lives!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Get out of debt now!
From: jimmyt
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 12:30 PM

The more I think about it, have you considered the ripple effect on small business if people actually took your advice? In fact many small businesses operate on such a slender profit margin that if there was an increase in bankruptcies, they would have to lay employees off because the funds to pay them would be gone in the bankruptcy courts.

THis is about as logical as saying times are hard, why not steal? The cost of shoplifting is factored in to businesses and guess what? Passed along to all the other consumers! Bankruptcy is not a positive force in the economy. It is a very negative one.

There are some instances where bankruptcy is an inevitable consequence of hardship, divorce, tragedy, etc. But to just file bankruptcy because you have managed to get yourself in too much debt is irresponsible and certainly not looking out for the best interest of the economy.

Subject: RE: BS: Get out of debt now!
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 05:11 PM

Do you even know what I'm talking about? The govt is changing the rules under which you borrowed. They've just let a hundred corporate scandals go unpunished while encouraging lending institutions to issue unsecured credit, and they've done it for this moment...so they could CHANGE THE RULES UNDER WHICH YOU BORROWED and shackle you to high interest rates just as the economy collapses. The govt is cheating, and you have no obligation to honor any financial commitment to it. The best interest of the economy is served when the govt is forced to act responsibly.

Subject: RE: BS: Get out of debt now!
From: jimmyt
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 05:57 PM

THat, my friend, is unmitigated bullshit   If you borrow the money, you have a moral obligation to pay it back. period, end of story I had to borrow 75 thousand dollars to get my education. I finished in 1982 My last ten thousand dollars was borrowed at the lovely rate of 10.5 percent interest. By the time I got it all paid off my payback was about $230,000, but By God, I borrowed the money I owed it, and I felt an obligation to pay it back. When you owe money, you should pay it back!!! yes, I know about that!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Get out of debt now!
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 07:08 PM

Well, I'm not going to get into all the in's and out's of the federal legislation but it is "preditor lender" friendly and has been supported by major contributors to Bush's election campaign: the credit card companies. Yeah, the small mom-n-po companies will still be written off but the credit card companies, which are a major conributor toward assisting folks in getting in trouble finacially, are getting major protection. Hmmmmmm?

Credit card companies practice their own brand of terrorism. The get credit cards in the hands of college kids, who then end up dropping out of college to pay them off. They should be held at least partially responsible with their "preditory" practices.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Get out of debt now!
From: jimmyt
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 07:48 PM

I have no disagreement with you on this issue, Bobert, but the generalization that people should "Go bankrupt" is certainly as irresponsible an act as anything else.

Subject: RE: BS: Get out of debt now!
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 10:11 PM

Absolutely right, jimmyt! There should be alot more chapet 7's and a lot less chaper 13's.

But we need to look at the sources of the troubles that folks find themselves in and we need to look for the patterns. Most people get into trouble with an income-to-debt ratio that puts them on the ragged edge. Lenders should back away from these folks but they don't. Instead, they, like any gambler, roll the dice. We see it all the time... with lenders who lend at usuary rates perfectly willing to lend to a guy who they have to know is in trouble. These folks tend to be the "credit card" folks.

The "credit card folks" charge a lot of interest and in reality try to hook as many folks as they can into paying just the interst. This is good business for them but bad business for the poor shmo who's just trying to get by. Now, these folks who charge 4 to 5 times prime rate want the US government to guarentee their *returns*. Hmmmmm?

Since when did the government become the collection agents for the loan sharks?

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Get out of debt now!
From: jimmyt
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 10:54 PM

I have absolutely no argument with what you say, Bobert. I think Credit card companies are going to get their just reward when they let young people get in over their heads financially, and I have no sympathy for them when they get burned. I do, however, think someone planning to go bankrupt just because the system allowed them to get in over their heads financially is a lot like someone who eats too much candy and gets sick blaming the candy company. Somehow we have to train our young people to not spend more than they can pay for.

Subject: RE: BS: Get out of debt now!
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 10:59 PM

I agree, jimmyt...

Without reservations...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Get out of debt now!
From: Sorcha
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 11:33 PM

And I have jimmyt. Trained them that is.

Subject: RE: BS: Get out of debt now!
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 11:58 PM

Bushit. You don't change the rules of a game in the middle of the game. The US govt is stealing pension funds...don't they OWE people that money? Why is it OK for the govt to change 401K rules and bankrupt people?

If you have been thinking of going bankrupt, folks, do it now. Bush did this legislation in TX and lots and lots of families have lost their homes as a result. Major illness...too bad. Sell your house, weakling. If you see bankruptcy at the end of the road for you, cash in your chips. Now.

Subject: RE: BS: Get out of debt now!
From: jimmyt
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 07:45 AM

Interesting that the Legislature if Georgia just passed new lagislation to protect the consumers from predatory lending institutions and put a cap on interest rates.

Subject: RE: BS: Get out of debt now!
From: Sam L
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 09:58 AM

It's interesting. I'm not sure what I think about it, but I suppose there maybe should be a grandfather clause to be fair to people who had a particular idea what they were getting into. I'm not sure about it--in most businesses the "rules of the game" can be expected to change. Tax law changes, prices of materials, shipping, employees, people's willingness to spend--pretty much everything changes. I think it wouldn't be a bad idea, generally to make bankrupcy more difficult, but exactly how to do it, and all the consequences--I don't know.

   I think most all lending is predatory, and it's only a matter of degree. I read about a man who made billions buying bad debt, on the idea that if you treated people decently, didn't insult them, they'd pay better. He based it on his own experience, after he had a business fail--whoever shouted at him most was the last he wanted to pay. There's a great truth in that. But eventually he over-reached, the company got into cooking the books, and the whole thing crashed. There was another great truth in that, too. The economy may well be limitless, but the better part of growing up is learning that WE have limits.

Subject: RE: BS: Get out of debt now!
From: jimmyt
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 10:12 AM

Fred, It is so nice when you and I agree! I started in business with the firm belief that people were generally honest, and if treated decently, would pay the bills that they owed. After all, I paid my bills, no matter what. Sometimes due to circumstances beyond my control (a sick child, an unexpected auto repair, etc.) it took a little longer than expected, but I was brought up that if you owed money, you paid it back. Setting out on this course in business, I encountered $12000 of bad debt in the first three months that was never collected. That sort of thing kind of gives you some wisdom about people. I have forgiven many thousands of dollars of debt over the years when I could see the hardship of unforseen circumstances, but by and large, there is a new mentality that I see ever increasing that the responsibility of debt is not being accepted by the people who incur it.

Subject: RE: BS: Get out of debt now!
From: YOR
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 12:43 PM

I saw a woman in the gas station the other morning ranting to the station owner about the cost of gas and cigarettes. She was blaming everyone. She left really pissed and drove off in her Lexus SUV. I told the station owner, "Now thats comedy!" That really made my day.

The local TV news did a story last year about a couple/family who got in bad debt, 45K+ not counting the cars and house, to explain how this happened they pulled out the family photo album and showed all the fun filled vacations they took all over the world. Yeah, I bet England, Australia, Hawaii and Rio were lots of fun.

I can't bleed for most people like these.

Enjoy, Roy

Subject: RE: BS: Get out of debt now!
From: MMario
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 12:49 PM

But if the banking systems are going to collapse - why bother declaring bankruptcy?

Subject: RE: BS: Get out of debt now!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 10:40 PM

A very good piece of advice to anyone, D.G. (getting out of debt, I mean...) One of the most dangerous things you can do right now is to be in debt, because the whole situation out there is very fragile, and there may indeed be a financial collapse rather analagous to what happened in Russia not very long ago, when enraged mobs were smashing open bank machines, because their savings had vanished into thin air.

The phony money game is approaching the point where the bubble may burst at any time, and it was built on outrageously irresponsible use of credit (deficit spending) by the system and the general public (whom the system encourages to spend foolishly and bankrupt themselves) .

It is such good advice at any time to advise people NOT to be in debt that it surprises me that anyone could fault you for it, though they can debate whether or not this is the best time to declare bankruptcy if they want to. I think, though, that your most vociferous opponents have just invested a lot of ego into dumping on you as a matter of course, rather than giving much thought to anything you say.

You must be one of those "evil" people who is just automatically always wrong, I guess... (joke)

I have taken the utmost care not to be in debt to anyone for a long time now, partly by just keeping my life fairly simple...partly by not buying what I cannot afford on the day I buy it, which means...I have accepted not owning a house up to this point, and I have accepted being single also (which seems to suit me quite well).

It all depends what you expect out of life, doesn't it?

Life is beautiful. Money is handy, but you don't need more of it than what you actually need, and the same goes for possessions. If people in general decided to follow that credo, the financial system would collapse, because it has been built on excess and waste.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Get out of debt now!
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 12:12 AM

Hey, I just thought I'd pass the bill number along. One of the reasons for the war with Iraq is to get peoples' minds off the everyday skullduggery the govt engages in, and this is one of the things congress will be voting on. But it won't be in the news. And if you're on the VERGE of bankruptcy and woke up tomorrow and found you couldn't declare...well, that wouldn't do anyone any good.

Subject: RE: BS: Get out of debt now!
From: Sam L
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 10:02 AM

Jimmyt, I guess it was bound to happen sooner or later!

Well, personally, I don't have a lot of debt, I have a house, and could've paid it off, but thought I'd let my mother hang on to my inheritance after my dad died. In my late thirties I got a credit card, for emergencies and travel. I agree with Little Hawk in my own attitude and habits. But then, I'm just not ambitious--I try to think of my greatest ambition... and wind up thinking about my favorite foods, jokes that were really funny... nice weather. I can see how someone who wanted to do something might need to borrow to get it going. So I wouldn't want to generalize too far about never having debt.

Subject: RE: BS: Get out of debt now!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 02:40 PM

Yes, it depends on the particular circumstances...

Remember, paper money is in truth worthless. Absolutely worthless. It's a promise, that's all, and it emanates from people who break their promises more often than they break wind.

What makes it seem to be worth something is this: We have all agreed to pretend it's worth something. As long as that pretense holds, so does the value of the money.

As for credit cards, they are a promise OF a promise! Even more worthless, in fact. It's a big, phony game. If you must play it, then don't get out on a limb while you do so, cos when the tree falls you will land very hard.

It would be interesting to hear from Andres in Argentina on this. I think I shall PM him.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Get out of debt now!
From: jimmyt
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 02:43 PM

Little Hawk, send me all your paper money from Canada and I will buy it with coins 50cents on the dollar or even gold coins!

Subject: RE: BS: Get out of debt now!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 06:00 PM

Ah, but jimmy...people around here are still playing the game. As long as they do, my paper money remains useful, despite the fact that it really has no intrinsic worth. Since I can still get 100 cents on the dollar here, your deal is not presently attractive to me.

The coins, by the way, are not worth all that much either, but they are worth something...if you know how to work the metal in useful ways.

If the paper money collapses at some point, I will consider your deal, however.

As for gold...it's fairly useful for certain things, and very attractive, but you can't eat it.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Get out of debt now!
From: jimmyt
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 06:37 PM

You know, Littlwe Hawk, I can't help but admire you for your convictions. We may not agree on much , but you seem to have it figured out, your value system and general views on things, and I sort of wish I had the clarity you do. Hell, I just flounder along trying to be a decent person, help a few folks along the way but yet, I hate to say it, I try to accumulate as much of that paper currency as I can. If it all goes to hell and I show up wanting a meal someday, You can grin and say I told you you can't eat gold!

Subject: RE: BS: Get out of debt now!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 08:36 PM

Jimmy - Well, gee...thanks for the kind words. :-) If you do show up under those circumstances, I will do my best to share the food with you.

I keep hoping it won't come to that kind of a crash, but it's a high risk situation out there these days.

Man, I never thought about any of this crazy stuff when I was a kid! I was mainly worried about the class bullies back then, but I never thought the fabric of society could fall down around me. The world seemed pretty dependable then.