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Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer

McGrath of Harlow 17 Mar 03 - 08:07 PM
robomatic 17 Mar 03 - 08:09 PM
Áine 17 Mar 03 - 08:15 PM
Bobert 17 Mar 03 - 08:25 PM
smallpiper 17 Mar 03 - 08:28 PM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Mar 03 - 08:39 PM
InOBU 17 Mar 03 - 08:43 PM
GUEST 17 Mar 03 - 08:46 PM
CarolC 17 Mar 03 - 08:47 PM
GUEST,Nacker 17 Mar 03 - 08:47 PM
InOBU 17 Mar 03 - 08:55 PM
SINSULL 17 Mar 03 - 09:10 PM
GUEST 17 Mar 03 - 09:20 PM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Mar 03 - 09:21 PM
CarolC 17 Mar 03 - 09:59 PM
InOBU 17 Mar 03 - 10:38 PM
Donuel 17 Mar 03 - 10:47 PM
Malcolm Douglas 18 Mar 03 - 12:10 AM
Forum Lurker 18 Mar 03 - 01:00 AM
open mike 18 Mar 03 - 01:51 AM
open mike 18 Mar 03 - 01:55 AM
open mike 18 Mar 03 - 01:58 AM
Wolfgang 18 Mar 03 - 04:03 AM
Troll 18 Mar 03 - 04:53 AM
Nigel Parsons 18 Mar 03 - 05:15 AM
Troll 18 Mar 03 - 05:15 AM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Mar 03 - 05:27 AM
Nigel Parsons 18 Mar 03 - 05:30 AM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Mar 03 - 05:30 AM
Bagpuss 18 Mar 03 - 06:32 AM
Suffet 18 Mar 03 - 06:51 AM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Mar 03 - 07:44 AM
Wolfgang 18 Mar 03 - 07:48 AM
Beccy 18 Mar 03 - 09:29 AM
Bagpuss 18 Mar 03 - 09:52 AM
GUEST 18 Mar 03 - 09:56 AM
GUEST 18 Mar 03 - 09:58 AM
Beccy 18 Mar 03 - 10:02 AM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Mar 03 - 10:10 AM
GUEST 18 Mar 03 - 10:26 AM
Troll 18 Mar 03 - 10:37 AM
Forum Lurker 18 Mar 03 - 10:40 AM
Troll 18 Mar 03 - 11:07 AM
CarolC 18 Mar 03 - 11:24 AM
DougR 18 Mar 03 - 11:26 AM
CarolC 18 Mar 03 - 11:46 AM
GUEST 18 Mar 03 - 12:53 PM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Mar 03 - 12:54 PM
GUEST,Guest, Push Me Pull You 18 Mar 03 - 01:33 PM
Forum Lurker 18 Mar 03 - 01:37 PM
GUEST 18 Mar 03 - 01:42 PM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Mar 03 - 01:45 PM
Forum Lurker 18 Mar 03 - 02:23 PM
Troll 18 Mar 03 - 03:01 PM
CarolC 18 Mar 03 - 03:29 PM
GUEST 18 Mar 03 - 03:46 PM
Ireland 18 Mar 03 - 03:47 PM
CarolC 18 Mar 03 - 03:59 PM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Mar 03 - 04:18 PM
InOBU 18 Mar 03 - 05:50 PM
GUEST 18 Mar 03 - 06:23 PM
CarolC 18 Mar 03 - 06:54 PM
CarolC 18 Mar 03 - 06:58 PM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Mar 03 - 07:13 PM
GUEST,Guest, Push Me Pull You 18 Mar 03 - 07:31 PM
CarolC 18 Mar 03 - 07:53 PM
GUEST 18 Mar 03 - 09:19 PM
Janice in NJ 18 Mar 03 - 09:19 PM
GUEST 18 Mar 03 - 09:54 PM
Bobert 18 Mar 03 - 10:08 PM
CarolC 18 Mar 03 - 10:13 PM
CarolC 18 Mar 03 - 10:22 PM
InOBU 18 Mar 03 - 10:47 PM
McGrath of Harlow 19 Mar 03 - 07:44 AM
GUEST 19 Mar 03 - 09:55 AM
robomatic 19 Mar 03 - 09:26 PM
Bobert 19 Mar 03 - 09:50 PM
Troll 19 Mar 03 - 10:04 PM
Bobert 19 Mar 03 - 10:22 PM
CarolC 19 Mar 03 - 10:48 PM
Troll 19 Mar 03 - 10:58 PM
Forum Lurker 19 Mar 03 - 11:09 PM
CarolC 19 Mar 03 - 11:43 PM
CarolC 20 Mar 03 - 12:01 AM
Forum Lurker 20 Mar 03 - 12:11 AM
CarolC 20 Mar 03 - 12:48 AM
McGrath of Harlow 20 Mar 03 - 04:06 AM
Janice in NJ 20 Mar 03 - 06:43 AM
Wolfgang 20 Mar 03 - 07:47 AM
CarolC 20 Mar 03 - 11:35 AM
Janice in NJ 20 Mar 03 - 03:37 PM
CarolC 20 Mar 03 - 04:37 PM
McGrath of Harlow 20 Mar 03 - 05:03 PM
Forum Lurker 20 Mar 03 - 06:59 PM
InOBU 20 Mar 03 - 10:07 PM
CarolC 20 Mar 03 - 10:44 PM
Bobert 20 Mar 03 - 11:12 PM
Forum Lurker 20 Mar 03 - 11:52 PM
Janice in NJ 21 Mar 03 - 06:01 AM
CarolC 21 Mar 03 - 12:00 PM
CarolC 21 Mar 03 - 12:08 PM
InOBU 21 Mar 03 - 01:42 PM
CarolC 21 Mar 03 - 01:51 PM
CarolC 21 Mar 03 - 02:09 PM
CarolC 21 Mar 03 - 02:22 PM
CarolC 21 Mar 03 - 02:40 PM
Forum Lurker 21 Mar 03 - 05:27 PM
CarolC 21 Mar 03 - 05:43 PM
Janice in NJ 21 Mar 03 - 10:49 PM
CarolC 21 Mar 03 - 11:37 PM
CarolC 22 Mar 03 - 12:09 AM
CarolC 22 Mar 03 - 12:23 AM
Janice in NJ 22 Mar 03 - 10:18 AM
Forum Lurker 22 Mar 03 - 10:36 AM
CarolC 22 Mar 03 - 02:17 PM
CarolC 22 Mar 03 - 02:47 PM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Mar 03 - 04:17 PM
Janice in NJ 22 Mar 03 - 04:23 PM
CarolC 22 Mar 03 - 04:35 PM
Jack the Sailor 22 Mar 03 - 04:50 PM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Mar 03 - 04:53 PM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Mar 03 - 05:36 PM
GUEST,Push Me Pull You 22 Mar 03 - 06:23 PM
Janice in NJ 22 Mar 03 - 07:10 PM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Mar 03 - 07:23 PM
Troll 22 Mar 03 - 11:09 PM
InOBU 23 Mar 03 - 12:33 AM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Mar 03 - 02:57 PM
CarolC 23 Mar 03 - 08:08 PM
CarolC 23 Mar 03 - 10:01 PM
Suffet 24 Mar 03 - 06:35 AM
CarolC 24 Mar 03 - 08:46 AM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Mar 03 - 09:30 AM
Wolfgang 24 Mar 03 - 10:19 AM
Janice in NJ 24 Mar 03 - 06:17 PM
CarolC 24 Mar 03 - 06:40 PM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Mar 03 - 06:43 PM
Jack the Sailor 24 Mar 03 - 07:13 PM
GUEST, heric 24 Mar 03 - 07:19 PM
CarolC 24 Mar 03 - 07:30 PM
Suffet 24 Mar 03 - 08:41 PM
CarolC 24 Mar 03 - 11:38 PM
GUEST 27 Mar 03 - 02:49 PM
GUEST,Push Me Pull You 27 Mar 03 - 08:53 PM
CarolC 27 Mar 03 - 10:01 PM
Forum Lurker 27 Mar 03 - 11:01 PM
CarolC 27 Mar 03 - 11:06 PM
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CarolC 27 Mar 03 - 11:34 PM
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Subject: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 08:07 PM

"army bulldozer crushes US peace protester"

"An Israeli army bulldozer crushed an American peace activist to death in the Gaza Strip yesterday in what witnesses described as a deliberate killing. Rachel Corrie, 23, died as she attempted to prevent the military destroying homes in the Rafah refugee camp, one of the most dangerous in the occupied territories."

I don't post this with a view to starting an acrimonious thread. But I think this deserves to be noticed, and what with all the news about war, it's the kind of thing that gets seqeezed out of the media - especially when the media has an agenda of its own, and she was protesting against "the wrong people". And "BS" didn't seem the right heading.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: robomatic
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 08:09 PM

I submit that BS is the perfect heading. This should get re-posted in the proper place.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: Áine
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 08:15 PM

Dear Kevin,

When I heard this story on the radio this morning, I thought that surely one of the Mudcatters would be able to write a song to the memory of this brave young woman -- and I knew that you would be the perfect person to do so. So, I'm not surprised that you were the one to begin a thread about Rachel.

I hope that you can reach that wonderful part of you, where your most beautiful poetry lives, and put words to music for this young life.

Thank you so much for the songs you have given us.

Le meas is grá is mise Áine


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 08:25 PM

Thanks fir posting this, McGrath. I heard about this yesterday and cut out the article from the Washington Post (with photo) and have carried it around with me in my shirt pocket all day.

A real sweet looking girl. I heard a tape of her on Pacifica this morning and she sounded like a sweet girl, too.

The Isrealis are claiming it was an accident but the witnesses, of which there were mnay, say it was deliberate. They even report that the bulldozer made a second pass over Rachel Corrie.

This world is out of control insane and, unfortunately, it seems that the US and its allies are the ones responsible for most of it with their arrogant, anti-human, anti-earth policies.

But this is an obituary. My prayers go out to the familiy of Rachel Corrie tonight!

Sweet kid who, though saddened by her death, am very proud. These 20 something kids have something special in their moral make up that gives me hope that the planet will strvive the idiots who have hyjacked it.

Peace

Bobert


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: smallpiper
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 08:28 PM

Its such a pity that the Israile's have learnd fuck all from what the nazi's did to them! And don't give me any sanctimonious shite they are behaving as badly as the bastards who tried to eliminate them.

They should be ashamed of themselves!


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 08:39 PM

You may note, robomatic, that the line at the top of the threads about the splitting system says "BS/Non-music threads are listed below".

This is (at this point anyway) a non-music thread, and could well belong in that part of the page - but the death of a brave young women protesting against brutality is not what I think of as "BS".

What this reminded me of was the famous newsfilm we all saw of the lone protestor in China standing in front of a column of advancing tanks, with his shopping bag in his hands. And the tanks stopped rather than run him over.

Searching form anything about this through Google didn't throw up much - until I typed in Rachel's home state, Washington, with her name, and up came this page about commemorations of September 11th one year after, and her name crops up way down the page - "Convergence for Peace at Percival Landing: Percival Landing will be a peace place all day Wednesday, starting with a dawn vigil beginning before the sun rises at 6:44 a.m. The first plane hit the World Trade Center one year ago at 6:45 Pacific Daylight Time. Throughout the day, people are invited to bring picnics, guitars, readings and artwork to share to create a community space for peace, social justice, anti-racism and critical thinking. A wall of reflections will be compiled throughout the day. The sponsor is the Olympia Movement for Justice and Peace, which can be reached at www.omjp.org or through Rachel Corrie at 753-1794."

And that led me to this site , with a picture of Rachel, and a note about what happened:

"The Olympia Movement for Justice & Peace, and the entire Olympia community, mourns the loss of our beloved sister, daughter, and friend, Rachel Corrie, who was killed today in Gaza by an Israeli army bulldozer as she attempted to protect a Palestinian home from demolition.

"We wish to extend our deepest sympathies to the Corrie family. Rachel was a tireless worker for social justice, a compassionate, loving, humble, even shy young woman who, over and over, put aside her own fears to promote peace and human rights, especially for those least able to protect themselves. She is an irreplaceable part of the Olympia community, and will be sorely missed."

And you'll note there's no hate in that notice, and it doesn't belong in this thread either, I'd say.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: InOBU
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 08:43 PM

As to it being an accident. Quaker's young men and women who have come back from Ramalah have been verbally abused by Israelies. I would not be surprised if this was intentional. There are no words.
Larry


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 08:46 PM

Peaceful? Click her to see a picture of Rachel Corrie teaching Palestinian children to burn the American flag.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 08:47 PM

And the tanks stopped

--McGrath of Harlow

I don't have a talent for writing songs, but I think this would be an excellent title for a song.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: GUEST,Nacker
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 08:47 PM

Developer: "Mr. Dent, have you any idea of the damage that will occur to that bulldozer if we let it run you over?"

Arthur Dent: "No, what?"

Developer: "None, whatever!"


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: InOBU
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 08:55 PM

So on the scale of things in the Universe, Guest... burning a flag is not peaceful, next to, say crushing a human under a bull dozer... well as the old story goes, I would not send you to the store for eggs.
Larry


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: SINSULL
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 09:10 PM

Several of her fellow students and teachers were interviewed on a radio show this morning. They claim that she was well aware of the danger in the region and was willing to suffer the consequences of following her conscience. I can't help but admire her courage.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 09:20 PM

I've always wondered why certain Mudcatters of such powerful conscience, McGrath of Harlow, CarolC, Jack the Sailor, etc., spend so much time as computer pundits in this insular little group rather than having the courage of Rachel Corrie and go put themselves on the line.

Anybody can talk the talk. It's quite another thing to walk the walk.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 09:21 PM

I'd be happy to see all the flags in the world burn, if it could save one life.

There was a pregnant women the other day who was killed when they bulldozed the house she was in. She was a Palestinian of course.

Maybe that was an accident. Maybe Rachel's death was as well. The ones who were driving the bulldozers will have to live with what they have done in both cases, and they know whether it was or not.

Non-violent protest, when it gets serious, does involve taking the risk of being killed, and in some cases actually being killed. Gandhi knew that. When people let hate take over because a non-violent protestor has been killed, it undermines the whole power of the protest. In this case, it's a kind of betrayal of the girl who put her body in the way of the killing machine, as if her death somehow invalidated her witness.

The word "martyr", which literally means "witness" gets thrown around too easily in the setting of Palestine and Israel. In particular it is used by Palestinians as the term for suicide bombers.

Rachel was a different kind of martyr. The best thing that could happen out of this would be if some young Palestinian, who was thinking of becoming a suicide bomber were to think again, and turn towards a type of protest that might lead instead to her kind of martyrdom, instead of the futile and horrible bombings that help to keep the extremists in power in Israel, and strengthen the influence of the other extremists among Palestinians.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 09:59 PM

We all serve in our own way and to the best of our abilities, GUEST. Even you.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: InOBU
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 10:38 PM

Hey Guest:
Being you don't put your name on anything, we don't know who the hell you are. In fact many of us HAVE been on the front lines of social change, feel free to run our names in google or whatever, and you will find we put in our time. Now, Rachel went beyond the call, but no need to assume we are arm chair activists, who ever the hell you are.
Larry


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 10:47 PM

After viewing the pictures of her being run over twice and her mouth gushing blood I have nothing but contempt for the driver, who probably lost a loved one in a suicide bombing and was extracting a personal revenge.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 12:10 AM

I don't see any flag burning in the photo our nameless correspondent indicates. Perhaps it was somewhere else; out of shot, maybe, or in another country. Perhaps it was just a troublemaker's fantasy. Certainly, American and Israeli "patriots" will be doing their level best to make the girl out to be some sort of terrorist. As the two most persistent sponsors of state terrorism in the world, I suppose they would know.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 01:00 AM

My local newspaper, usually fairly anti-Israel, reported that the bulldozer reversed and stopped after running her over. If anyone has any evidence that it was intentional, I would rather see it than simply see allegations. The last thing non-violent protest is meant to foment is hate.

Now, for the part that will really get flak: while I admire her courage and conviction, I cannot say the same for her intelligence. Kneeling in front of a bulldozer on a narrow road and hoping that the driver will see you in time to stop is not brave, it is foolhardy. There are better ways to protest than throwing your life away.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: open mike
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 01:51 AM

the song that comes to mind is one in which there is a
character named Darling Corey. As the song goes,
I believe he was buried -- perhaps he was a bootlegger,
at any rate the lyrics might be made to fit since her
name is so close...I heard that her body was being held
in a hospital until the arrival of her parents to take her
home...such a sad journey and on the eve of the world coming
to the brink of such an even as looms on the horizon.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: open mike
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 01:55 AM

on cheking into the song, Corey was a
female, and did in fact die in the song...
These lyrics may easily be adapted to
the case of Rachel Corrie in some way...


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Subject: Lyr Add: DARLING COREY
From: open mike
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 01:58 AM

I hope that someone who is good with
words can make these say something
fitting to honor this brave martyr/witness.

DARLING COREY

Wake up, wake up, Darlin' Corey.
What makes you sleep so sound?
Them revenue officers a'commin'
For to tear your still-house down.

Well the first time I seen Darlin' Corey
She was settin' by the side of the sea,
With a forty-four strapped across her bosom
And a banjo on her knee.

Dig a hole, dig a hole, in the medder
Dig a hole, in the col' col' groun'
Dig a hole, dig a hole in the medder
Goin' ter lay Darlin' Corey down.

(above verse frequently used as chorus)
The next time I seen Darlin' Corey
She was standin' in the still-house door
With her shoes and stockin's in her han'
An' her feet all over the floor.

Wake up,wake up Darlin Corey.
Quit hangin' roun' my bed.
Hard likker has ruined my body.
Pretty wimmen has killed me mos' dead

Wake up, wake up my darlin';
Go do the best you can.
I've got me another woman;
You can get you another man.

Oh yes, oh yes my darlin'
I'll do the best I can,
But I'll never take my pleasure
With another gamblin' man.

Don' you hear them blue-birds singin'?
Don' you hear that mournful sound?
They're preachin' Corey's funeral
In some lonesome buryin' groun'


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: Wolfgang
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 04:03 AM

It is very sad news.

As for songwriting, there is already at least one song about a girl crushed by a tank. It is called Watching TV' (Roger Waters) and it is about a Chinese girl crushed at Tianamen Place in June, 1989. The more peaceful outcome McGrath remembers was in May or even April, 1989.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: Troll
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 04:53 AM

Having had some experience with both tanks and bulldozers, I must agree with Forum Lurker. What happened is a tragedy all the way around, but when someone places themselves in harms way, the world should not be surprised if harm comes to them.
My prayers are with her family. These are hard times.

troll


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Subject: Lyr Add: RICHARD CORY (Edwin Arlington Robinson)
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 05:15 AM

Anyone looking for other inspiration to write, may I suggest the poem "Richard Cory" (found Here), which has already been re-written and set to music by Simon & Garfunkel. Either the poem or the song could prove inspirational.


RICHARD CORY
Edwin Arlington Robinson. 1869?

WHENEVER Richard Cory went down town,
We people on the pavement looked at him:
He was a gentleman from sole to crown,
Clean favored, and imperially slim.

And he was always quietly arrayed,
And he was always human when he talked;
But still he fluttered pulses when he said,
"Good-morning," and he glittered when he walked.

And he was rich? yes, richer than a king,
And admirably schooled in every grace:
In fine, we thought that he was everything
To make us wish that we were in his place.

So on we worked, and waited for the light,
And went without the meat, and cursed the bread;
And Richard Cory, one calm summer night,
Went home and put a bullet through his head.

Nigel


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: Troll
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 05:15 AM

BTW, Malcolm Douglas, if you'll read the story below the picture, it states that Rachel Corrie was burning a mock US flag at a rally in Gaza. The stars are clearly drawn on the crude flag she is holding.
The photo is from AP and was taken by one Khalil Hamra. The story that I read about her death off the Reuters wire, stated that she was laying on the ground in front of the bulldozer and that visibility is very poor close-up in the armoured 'dozers used by the IDF.
I will assume that the Reuters report is fairly accurate as they are not known as a hot-bed of conservative thought.

troll


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 05:27 AM

Here's a link to a bunch of emails Rachel sent to her people back in Washington State over the February in the last few weeks after she got outvto Gaza in January - http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,916246,00.html

Worth reading, really worth reading. Here is just a taste:

Hi friends and family, and others,

I have been in Palestine for two weeks and one hour now, and I still have very few words to describe what I see. It is most difficult for me to think about what's going on here when I sit down to write back to the United States. Something about the virtual portal into luxury.

I don't know if many of the children here have ever existed without tank-shell holes in their walls and the towers of an occupying army surveying them constantly from the near horizons. I think, although I'm not entirely sure, that even the smallest of these children understand that life is not like this everywhere. An eight-year-old was shot and killed by an Israeli tank two days before I got here, and many of the children murmur his name to me - Ali - or point at the posters of him on the walls.


No indication she was kneeling in front of the killdozer - what I've read is she was standing there with the others, on the rubble, and she may have stumbled. No point in pointing a finger at the driver. Maybe he didn't mean to kill her, maybe he did, either way he was just a pawn in the game. I imagine it won't be long and they'll have robots doing that kind of driving to cut out the chance of them thinking what they are doing. Maybe in a sense they already are using robots.


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Subject: Lyr Add: RICHARD CORY (Paul Simon)
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 05:30 AM

And, for the sake of comparison:

RICHARD CORY
Paul Simon

They say that Richard Cory
Owns one half of this whole town
With political connections
To spread his wealth around
Born into society
A banker's only child
He had everything a man could want
Power, grace, and style

Chorus
But I, I work in his factory
And I curse the life I'm living
And I curse my poverty
And I wish that I could be
Oh I wish that I could be
Yes I wish that I could be
Richard Cory

The papers print his picture
Almost everywhere he goes
Richard Cory at the opera
Richard Cory at a show
And the rumours of his parties
And the orgies on his yacht
He surely must be happy
With everything he's got
Chorus

He freely gave to charity
He had the common touch
They were grateful for his patronage
And they thanked him very much
So my mind was filled with wonder
When the evening headline read
Richard Cory went home last night
And put a bullet through his head
Chorus


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 05:30 AM

And here's something I wrote last night.

Well I know her name was Rachel, and they say that she was shy,
And they say she's got a family to mourn,
And they live out on the West Coast, that's half a world away,
Only twenty three – she'd hardly yet been born,
But she was standing in the way of the war
Standing in the way of the war.
Standing in the path of the monster once again.
Trying to find some way to stop the killing and the pain
Standing in the way of the war.

Standing in the way of the hatred rolling down,
Standing up with nothing in her hands,
All the way from Washington to the Gaza strip she came,
And she died there with that nothing in her hands.
She was standing in the way of the war
Standing in the way of the war.
Standing in the path of the monster once again.
Trying to find some way to stop the killing and the pain
Standing in the way of the war.

Standing in the way as the crushing tracks came on,
"We shall not be moved, just like a tree"
All that she could do was put her body on the line
And hope that she could make the driver see.
She was standing in the way of the war
Standing in the way of the war.
Standing in the path of the monster once again.
Trying to find some way to stop the killing and the pain
Standing in the way of the war.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: Bagpuss
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 06:32 AM

From a guardian article


"She was standing on top of a pile of earth," said another activist, Richard Purssell, who was a few feet away. "The driver cannot have failed to see her. As the blade pushed the pile, the earth rose up. Rachel slid down the pile. It looks as if she got her foot caught. The driver didn't slow down; he just ran over her. Then he reversed the bulldozer back over her again. She was very courageous."

Other activists said the bulldozer had approached from several metres away and that Ms Corrie, who was wearing a brightly coloured jacket, was waving and they were shouting at the driver to stop but he ignored them.

Witnesses said another protester had been slightly injured about half an hour earlier when the same bulldozer knocked him into barbed wire.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: Suffet
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 06:51 AM

Regarding that photo from February 15, it is ambiguous at best. It looks like she is holding a child's drawing with a couple of stars, one thin red line, and one thin blue line. Is that an American flag? Maybe, and maybe not. And anyway it is unclear what she is doing with it. But even if she is burning a representation of Old Glory, is that not a peaceful protest? It may offend some people, but it is certainly not violent. And were it here in the USA it would still be Constitutionally protected free speech.

I don't know who our anonymous GUEST is, but he/she is merely trying to defame Rachel Corrie's memory and belittle her activism. I wish he/she would have the courage to reveal his/her identity.

As for my own identity, just do Google searches for "Stephen Suffet" and for "Steve Suffet" and you will know more about me than I know about myself.

--- Steve


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 07:44 AM

I've stuck that song of mine up on my song website, with a streaming audio file (Real Audio) - Rachel Corrie

(And here's a link direct to the sound file.)


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: Wolfgang
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 07:48 AM

"burns a makeshift US flag" has been taken by the international press agencies directly from the Rafah based peace activists' publication about that incident in February 2003. They have been there, they have published that sentence. I think that settles it. That the young woman in their publication then was named 'Alice' had another easily understandable reason. The similarity of 'Alice' and Rachel is too obvious.

link for documentation

But does it matter here who is right about that detail? I don't think so.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: Beccy
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 09:29 AM

I know a man who accidentally ran over his own son in a bulldozer. The boy, 3 years old, was supposed to be indoors, but snuck out and made the fatal mistake of playing behind his Dad's bulldozer. When his Dad backed over him he died almost instantly. The boy didn't know any better.

What's my point? I feel horrible for Rachel Corrie's death, but she was in a situation where she was aware of the danger. She probably did not go to the protest expecting to die, but surely she went expecting some conflict. That is, after all, why she was in the region- to try to end conflict.

I pray that her soul is at rest. I also pray that this does not become something that it isn't.

Beccy


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: Bagpuss
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 09:52 AM

I think pointing out that she was in a dangerous situation voluntarily, misses the point. The point is that the Palestinian people are not in that situation voluntarily and have to live with this terror every day. And there are plenty of palestinians killed in a similar manner, its just that they dont get the same attention. What this woman and many other brave souls like her did is to put themselves in considerable danger in order to highlight what is happening there and to try to protect some of the people having their homes and lives destroyed by the Israeli Army.

If this was an *accident* - I am sure there have been many other similar accidents caused because of the disregard for human life shown by the Israeli Army (ie it is an accident mainly because they don't even bother to check whether there are any people in the way).

Bagpuss


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 09:56 AM

I'd be happy to see all the flags in the world burn, if it could save one life.

Unfortunately, McGrath, burning flags, real flags or mock flags, will not save any lives. On the contrary, when Rachel Corrie burned that flag in front of Palestinian children, she was reenforcing hatred. That is hardly the act of a peace loving person. As you well know, the hatred taught to the Palestinian children has too often led them into situations where they will be killed. Be they rock throwers or be they terrorist suicide murderers.

Here in America, burning an American flag may be protected by freedom of speech. However, if you go to a football or baseball stadium and try it, you'll be very lucky to come out alive.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 09:58 AM

Inobu,

I have nothing to learn from a person who dedicates himself to being a lying PR flak for a vicious child beater.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: Beccy
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 10:02 AM

Guest- Please identify yourself so that we may either curse you or agree with you, each in our own way...

And what do you mean about the PR lackey?


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 10:10 AM

Focusing on the killing itself is looking in the wrong direction.The question isn't, "W.why did the driver run her down, was it intentional, carelessness, or a pure accident?" Asking that is surely to look in the wrong direction.

Rachel knew she was putting herself at risk, and so do the otherpeace activists. The driver knew there was a real possibility of his killing someone, either running them down, or crushed in a falling buildinmg, like that pregnant woman I mentioned who was killed a few days ago.

The question is, why did Rachel feel it necessary to risk her life to stop what is happening in Gaza, and why did the driver feel it necessary to risk killing innocent people like that?

And for the answer to the first question, I suggest people read those emails she sent home.

Getting angry at the driver is a waste of energy. The blame for his actions lies with the people who gave him his orders, and the people who gave them their orders. Yes, and the people on the other side who helped put those people into power, by becoming trapped in a disastrous cycle of atrocity and counter-atrocity.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 10:26 AM

Beccy,

Remember the woman who was caught on video tape last year beating her helpless litle girl? Inobu is her PR flak. Search the Mudcat archives, you'll see how much credibility he has a truth teller.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: Troll
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 10:37 AM

Where are the "human shields" in The Sudan to stand between the slavers and their prey? Where are the protesters marching to protest the actions of Robert Mugabe in Zimbabwe?
You don't know do you.
Just like no one acted as a "human shield" for the women who were murdered by the Taliban. Just like no one protests the treatment of the Kurds in Iraq and Turkey whose right to a country of their own is atleast as strong as the Palestinian Arabs.
I could say that it's because the Israeli-Palestinian Arab conflict is higher profile and therefore cooler to protest.
But I won't say that. I'll just assume that people aren't aware of what's going on in the rest of the world.

troll


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 10:40 AM

McGrath-the information I've seen is that the protestor's normal method was to kneel, similarly to the Muslim position for prayer. The paper also reported that she was kneeling in this fashion at the time. I agree that the real focus should be on ending the violence on both sides, but I have no idea how to do it.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: Troll
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 11:07 AM

Make Jerusalem an international city under governance of the Sec Gen of the UN and move the UN there. Tear down the settlements on the West Bank or remove their IDF protection. Move out of the Occupied Territories (or divide them) and build two ten-foot high walls 50 yards apart down the border. The IDF on one side and the Palestinian police on the other and ANYONE caught trying to sneak across gets shot. Put the border crossings under the control of UN forces and tell both sides that if there is any trouble, they'll get their butts kicked back to last Tuesday and DO it a few times. The Israelis have their country, the Palestinian Arabs have their country and the killing stops.
Of course, no politician in his right mind on either side would ever dare suggest it. They could lose their job.

troll


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 11:24 AM

Perhaps the bulldozer driver was Moshe Nissim. Here's an interview with him that was originially published in the Israeli newspaper, Yediot Aharonot:

Moshe Nissim


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: DougR
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 11:26 AM

There are some good ideas there, troll. I especially think it would be helplful to the whole world to move the U.N. there.

What happened to this young lady is tragic. As a few others have pointed out, however, she must have known the risk she was taking. If blame must be assigned, I think it must be assigned to her. People must take personal responsibility for their actions. She was attempting to do something heads of state have not been able to accomplish ...stop the armed conflict between Israel and the Palestinians. She should have known better. I don't know, under those circumstances whether her action should be described as courageous or foolish. I rather think it was the latter, however.

I feel so sad for her family and friends. I feel sad,too, for those protestors who will follow in her footsteps, convinced that their deaths will stop the conflict.

DougR


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 11:46 AM

I could say that it's because the Israeli-Palestinian Arab conflict is higher profile and therefore cooler to protest.

Or perhaps it's because the US gives Israel billions of dollars every year to help them commit attrocities. It's our tax dollars that pay for this. We have a responsibility to speak up.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 12:53 PM

You mess with the bull you might just get the horn - too bad about the kid. I admire her willingness to go and do what she did though. But she knew the risks.

And yep them danged Israelis - atrocities up the bazoo - they go out and hire people to blow themselves up on buses and in school yards. What a crock of shit. You folks really think that America is the only bad guy out there? Get a life -


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 12:54 PM

"People must take personal responsibility for their actions".

I'm sure that Rachel took responsibility for her actions. That is the essence of non-violence. So must the driver, and the people who gave the driver their orders amd the people who justify the collective punishments, and the bulldozing of homes and seem to shrug off the deaths of civilians, women, children in the Palestinian ghetto.

If the Palestinians in their desperation could follow in the footsteps of Rachel and turn to a non-violent struggle that would not be something to be sad about. Perhaps as many would be killed as have died in misguided suicide bomb attacks, but their deaths would bring peace nearer, and break the cycle of atrocity and counter atrocity.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: GUEST,Guest, Push Me Pull You
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 01:33 PM

She reminds me of the character in "The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie" who went over to defend the brave men fighting in the Spanish American War and was killed on the wrong side.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 01:37 PM

Troll-I agree on the settlements, and on the withdrawal from the occupied territories. I can't say the same for Jerusalem. Not only does it deny the obviously superior Israeli claim to the holy sites on the Temple Mount (we were there first, and our book says so, and theirs doesn't, nyah nyah nyah), but it would turn the city into the focus of all of the strife that occurs in the entire region, as it would have to be accessible to both Arabs and Israelis. Further, the UN couldn't possibly enforce such a division, especially against the IDF.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 01:42 PM

Forum Lurker,

When Jordan controlled East Jerusalem from 1948-1967, Jews were denied access to their holy sites, including the Western Wall, the holiest site in Judaism. However, since the city was unified in 1967, both Arabs and Israelis, Moslems and Jews (not to mention Christians), have had full access to their holy sites in Jerusalem. Control of the Moslem holy sites, BTW, has continued to be in the hands of the Moslems.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 01:45 PM

It doesn't take long for people to turn their back from the dead person does it?


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 02:23 PM

GUEST of 1:42 I know that perfectly well, but don't see the relevance.

McGrath- Thread creep happens, evein in obits.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: Troll
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 03:01 PM

Lurker, it would be open to EVERYONE. That's what being an international city means.
UN forces could enforce the division against the IDF with little or no problem if the US and, say, China made up the UN forces.
I don't believe that there would be any problems once the division was in place.
The problem would be in getting the politicians in this country to grow enough backbone to do the job. Frankly,I don't think that will EVER happen.

troll


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 03:29 PM

Well, troll and Forum Lurker, all of those fine distinctions may just end up being moot points anyway. If the Israeli government gets its way, all of the Palestinians will probably be forcibly expelled from Israel/Palestine eventually anyway:

Forced Removal


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 03:46 PM

If they continue to blow themselves and others up with home made bombs maybe they should be sent away. What would you do if it started happening in the US and Canada? Get a bumper sticker that says, "Hug a bomber today."


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: Ireland
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 03:47 PM

The one thing I admire about this perfect example of a human being was the fact that she was trying to change things, save lives without taking another persons life to do it.

Rachel Corrie gave all she had and it is our short comings if we do not realise or respect that.

It is a sad fact but in losing her life it has highlighted the plight of the situation. I think we take the latest reports of Israeli intrusions with the same attitude people looked at the N.I. situation in the end, a take no notice they are always at it attitude. Sorry if I have generalised too much.

McG of H was right in starting this thread, for what it is worth I agree with what he said.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 03:59 PM

If they continue to blow themselves and others up with home made bombs maybe they should be sent away.

They are blowing themselves up in response to the very kinds of things mentioned in the last link I posted. There was a time when there weren't any suicide bombers in Israel/Palestine. But the tighter the Israeli government squeezes the Palestinians, the more they become radicalized and then you end up with problems like suicide bombers.

What would you do if it started happening in the US and Canada? Get a bumper sticker that says, "Hug a bomber today

If my government was creating the problem by treating people who resort to these kinds of tactice in the way the Israeli government is treating the Palestinians, I would protest against my government.

Oh, yeah, I forgot. I've already done that.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 04:18 PM

Here's what Rachel had to say in one of those emails, trying to understand where the violence comes from:

If any of us had our lives and welfare completely strangled, lived with children in a shrinking place where we knew, because of previous experience, that soldiers and tanks and bulldozers could come for us at any moment and destroy all the greenhouses that we had been cultivating for however long, and did this while some of us were beaten and held captive with 149 other people for several hours - do you think we might try to use somewhat violent means to protect whatever fragments remained?

I think about this especially when I see orchards and greenhouses and fruit trees destroyed - just years of care and cultivation. I think about you and how long it takes to make things grow and what a labour of love it is.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: InOBU
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 05:50 PM

In that same vien, McGrath, I think of how long it takes to raise a young woman with a social conscience, how long it takes to raise a nation from the ashes of the holocaust and what a great shame it is that both are thrown away in the same action...
Peace and sanity
Larry


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 06:23 PM

I agree InOBU - only who defines the social conscience as right or wrong? I would not say that the driver of the bulldozer had any less a social conscience than she did. Both were doing what they believed to be right - whatever the hell right is.

Well CarolC you say that violence perpetuates violence. So they blow themselves up and Israel responds. Who are you to say who or what is right? Maybe they need to quit blowing themselves up first?


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 06:54 PM

No, GUEST. You have it backwards. It is not Israel that responds. Israel is the aggressor, and the Palestinians respond to that agression. When Israel stops its acts of aggression against the Palestinians, there will be peace in Israel and Palestine.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 06:58 PM

(that is, of course, unless the Israeli government succeeds in its program of ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians from Israel/Palestine)


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 07:13 PM

Once you get into a cycle of violence it becomes almost arbitrary to identify who started it. Unless of course we point to the real source of it - the Jew haters in Europe over the ages, and more especially the architects of the Jewish Holocaust.

What is more important is to recognise who it is who benefits from the continued violence and counter-violence, and who suffers most from it.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: GUEST,Guest, Push Me Pull You
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 07:31 PM

Maybe the point you are tripping over without acknowldging it, McGrath and Carol, is that we are dealing with continual stimulous - response, and either side can go back farther and farther, biblically far in this sad case. The letters you are quoting are from one of those sides, that Ms. Corrie happened to pick. It really could have been the other side, like some kid from the U.S. who got blown up in a university cafeteria. The ending for Ms. Corrie was likewise tragic, but to me doesn't constitute a 'peaceful' action. More like non-violent resistance. Maybe she wasn't aware that the Palestinian authority has likewise bulldozed houses, has executed numerous alleged 'informers' including women. Maybe she was as well-informed as you say, in which case she chose a side, apparently a side you agree with, but by no means fair nor unbiased. Her letters and the photographs of her indicate profound bias.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 07:53 PM

There are a lot of things the Israeli government does to the Palestinians that many or maybe even most people don't know about, GUEST, Push Me Pull You. For instance, do you know what the Israeli government is doing to the Palestinians in the West Bank with regard to access to water?

The Israeli government is and has been instituting a systematic and relentless oppression of the Palestinian people in order to get them off of what little land they have left. This will not stop unless people wake up to what is happening and say "no" to the Israeli government, or until the Israeli government succeds in it's ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians.

And heaven help Israel, the US, Americans, and Jews around the world if Israel succeeds in the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians from Israel/Palestine.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 09:19 PM

CarolC keeps going on and on and on and on and on about how Israel is "ethnic cleansing" the Palestinians. She has repeated her blood libel so many times that there are probably some people stupid enough to believe her lies.

And what is her source? She provides links to a disreputable web site that no one in the world takes seriously. Anyone can put up a website. It doesn't mean diddly. I could create a site that says Jack The Sailor is really a woman and that she and CarolC are lesbians. That statement has about as much credibility as anything CarolC has to say.

In 2002, when one Isaeli politician suggested removing Palestinians, he was shot down by ebery other politician in Israel. Yet CarolC keeps trying to present this as official Isreali policy. It's as if David Duke of the KKK made a statement about African Americans and then someone was stupid enough to then insist that because David Duke said it, it is official American policy. What a crock of shit.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 09:19 PM

Rachel Corrie was foolhardy enough to believe she could use her nonviolence in face of a merciless and remorseless oppressor. But maybe that is just the kind of foolhardiness this moment in history demands. Fifty-five years of armed struggle have brought the Palestinian Arabs not one day closer to independence. If anything, their lot is more wretched than ever. But imagine for a moment they had engaged instead in a disciplined Gandhian campaign of noncooperation, boycotts, civil disobedience, and collective self-help. Instead of bulldozers and tanks, Arab Palestine would now be facing the mundane tasks of statehood: water rights and foreign trade and whose mug to put on their currency. Call it, if you will, a failure of leadership.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 09:54 PM

In answer to Beccy at 10:02, you need to read this thread

thread.cfm?threadid=51762

to know why Larry is refered to as a "a lying PR flak for a vicious child beater."


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 10:08 PM

Hey, irregardless of which side has the greatest tools for ddestruction of life in their arsinal, the cyle of violence between Isaeal and the Palestine and vice versa is unacceptable. Sure, one can look at Israel as the "bullies" and leave it right there. But it is a conflict, a war, and both sides need to pull back and stop attacking each other with the weapons that are at their disposal.

But this won't happen until the US tells both sides in unmistakenable terms that this behavior is totatlly unacceptable. The US can do this and must do this. It should tell Sharon that there will be no more money. They should tell Arafat to get off his butt and tell Hamas to chill!

Yep, until the US decides to quit cow-tieing and exert a leadership role, there will be more and more of what we have seen. One Israeli killed and 10 Palestinians! The ratios won't change. The cyle won't change.

In these times when the US has a wonderful opportuintiy to stand up for peace, it seems more like the deer in the headlights. I blame this more on Bush, thought Clinton didn't talk tought either. Hey, it's Bush's watch now!

Bobert


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 10:13 PM

My links on this thread are from the Gush Shalom website. Gush Shalom is an Israeli human rights organization. Here is their home page:

Gush Shalom

And the page with information about their organization:

Introduction to Gush Shalom

Here is the home page for Not In My Name, a Jewish human rights organization based here in the US.

Not In My Name

Here is a letter to the Israeli government that is posted to the NIMH site on the subject of Palestinian expulsion. Our guest is using the tactic of attacking the credibility of the messenger because he/she can't dispute the factuality of what I have said:

American Academics Join Israeli Colleagues In Warning Against Ethnic Cleansing

"We, American academics and intellectuals, applaud our courageous Israeli colleagues for their recent letter warning of the possibility of ethnic cleansing in Israel and the Occupied Territories. The 187 Israeli signatories express concern that the "fog of war" [against Iraq] "could be exploited by the Israeli government to commit further crimes against the Palestinian people, up to full- fledged ethnic cleansing."

The Israeli professors point out that: "The Israeli ruling coalition includes parties that promote 'transfer' of the Palestinian population as a solution to what they call 'the demographic problem'. Politicians are regularly quoted in the media as suggesting forcible expulsion, most recently MKs [members of the Israeli parliament] Michael Kleiner and Benny Elon, as reported on Yediot Ahronot website on September 19, 2002. In a recent interview in Israeli daily Ha'aretz, Chief of Staff Moshe Ya'alon described the Palestinians as a 'cancerous manifestation' and equated the military actions in the Occupied Territories with 'chemotherapy', suggesting that more radical 'treatment' may be necessary. Prime Minister Sharon has backed this 'assessment of reality'. Escalating racist demagoguery concerning the Palestinian citizens of Israel may indicate the scope of the crimes that are possibly being contemplated."

Benjamin Netanyahu, the newly appointed Israeli foreign minister, previously advocated expelling Palestinians while the world was distracted with events at Tiananmen Square.

We join with our Israeli colleagues in calling for vigilance as events unfold in Israel and the Occupied Territories. With an average of more than $10 million dollars per day of American tax dollars going to Israel, we believe Americans cannot remain silent while crimes as abhorrent as ethnic cleansing are being openly advocated.

We urge our government to communicate clearly to the government of Israel that the expulsion of people according to race, religion or nationality would constitute crimes against humanity and will not be tolerated."


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 10:22 PM

For more information, see this thread. It'll help you understand, Janice from NJ, why what you are suggesting would never have worked:

Hypocrisy Rules - OK?


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: InOBU
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 10:47 PM

My dear misinformed anonimous Guest who wrote..."Larry is refered to as a "a lying PR flak for a vicious child beater." As a matter of fact, Ms. Toogood's case has been settled to the satifaction of all, she is no longer facing two 5 year jail terms. As to refering to me as a liar, I not only stand by all I say but I sign my name to that which I say, unlike your own dear cowardly self.
Larry


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 07:44 AM

Nothing "foolhardy" about non-violent resistance. People who engage in it know that they risk death, just as anyone who engages in resistance. The difference is that they do not risk killing others and reinforcing the cycle of violence.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 09:55 AM

Bobert - "Hey, irregardless of which side has the greatest tools for ddestruction of life in their arsinal, the cyle of violence between Isaeal and the Palestine and vice versa is unacceptable. Sure, one can look at Israel as the "bullies" and leave it right there. But it is a conflict, a war, and both sides need to pull back and stop attacking each other with the weapons that are at their disposal.

But this won't happen until the US tells both sides in unmistakenable terms that this behavior is totatlly unacceptable. The US can do this and must do this. It should tell Sharon that there will be no more money. They should tell Arafat to get off his butt and tell Hamas to chill!"

Well we are doing that in Iraq and you say we are being jerks and abusing our power - now it's OK? And we are giving Iraq and the surrounding areas the message that if they continue to do the same old we're going to come in and change things.

I'm sure Hamas will just say "Right USA - we'll stop - yep uh huh - "

How about you and the rest of the Shields of the world do what Ghandi did - have all of you just walk up to every military item in the arsenal and after a few hundred thousand of you are dead the world will go _ Ohhhhhh let's stop - -


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: robomatic
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 09:26 PM

I was taught to spell his name 'Gandhi'.

I think the comment about massive Palestinian non-violent resistance was telling. Unfortunately it has not been tried. It has been said "The Palestinians have never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity."

The failure of the Arab states surrounding Israel to take on the re-settlement of these miserable people, unlike Israel's taking on the resettlement of Jews from Arab lands, has led to an incredibly one-sided and (one would think) indefensible position designed to lead to an Israeli state that will have indefensible borders and no control over its own waterways and water table.

Not for nothing has it been observed that Israel only has to lose once. To this date the Arab countries have encouraged Palestinians to take this approach. The result has been increased misery to both the Israeli and Palestinian peoples.

And in spite of this, there are Israeli parties, organizations, and websites which are taking on Palestinian advocacy. I am not aware of a similar openness to criticism and democratic ideals on the Palestinian side. Reminds me of the difference between an open society and a totalitarian one. The open society is full of people critiquing it and the other one is bleating endlessly how it is the only way, has the only right, is purely good and all else is evil. It mistakes intransigency for strength, flexibility for weakness, and brings down ever more sorrow on its own people and causes.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 09:50 PM

troll:

I agree whole heartedly.

Hey, will someone get the smelling salts! Poor troll done passed out!

Yeah, I'd love to see the UN in Jerusalem. And I'd love to see Israel pull back the recent settlements. And, believe it or not, I have said the same thing about a DMZ. Get these folks the heck *away* from one another for now and maybe for a long time. Let them live their lives without the constant fear of one another.

Now, with that settled, howz about a portion of what the US routinely sends to Israel each year aid in its defense to go toward creating investment seed money for the Palestinians? Deal?

Danged! Me and troll on the same page?

There must be some catch...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: Troll
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 10:04 PM

Bobert, if you're waiting for me, you're backing up. I made this suggestion several years ago. So rather than belabor the point, I'll just say that there may be hope for you yet. After all, if you can accept one conservatives idea, there are probably others that make sense too.

troll


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 10:22 PM

troll:

Don't get too carried away, but we're like mind on this one. I don't see this as too conservastive at all unless this is one of those situations where the left and right are so far out that they touch.

But this works fir me just fine and I don't see any downside to it.

How about a few bucks from Israel's aid package to go toward building a Palestianian economy?

Can we agree on that?

Bobert

p.s. Well I reckon that even knotheads like you, T. and Dougie gotta be right (ahh, corrct) occasionally, but don't go get no big head over it!


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 10:48 PM

I think the comment about massive Palestinian non-violent resistance was telling. Unfortunately it has not been tried. It has been said "The Palestinians have never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity.

Talk about blood libels. This is simply not true. Here are two quotes from Israeli government leaders that directly contradict that particular "Big Lie"...

"We have a skeleton, we didn't complete the house. The Oslo agreement has had a rather short occasion to implement itself, and that was between 1993 and 1996. The Oslo agreement was stopped in 1996 when the government in Israel was changed and Mr. Netanyahu became the Prime Minister. I think that the foundations and the structure of Oslo are still the best ones available. And once we shall have an opportunity, we shall complete the building that may withstand the winds of the outside world, and the skepticism of the people."

--Shimon Peres, September 24, 2001

According to Yitzhak Rabin, Arafat and the PLO were willing to work with him in stopping terrorism. (This was during the time when the Palestinians still had hope because they thought the Oslo agreement would be implemented)...

"In the last two years, not one Israeli has been killed by PLO terrorism," Rabin said. The real threat, he said, does not come from Israel's old adversaries - he pointedly included Syrian President Hafez al-Assad in the faded threat category - but from "the ugly wave of" Iranian-supported Islamic fundamentalism.

--Yitzhak Rabin


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: Troll
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 10:58 PM

The money thing works for me. If there is a working peace, they won't have to spend so much on defense. Glad to see you're coming around.
Even a blind pig will find an acorn if he roots long enough.
Keep rootin'.

troll


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 11:09 PM

CarolC-The Palestinians do still continue terrorist attacks, though. They ought to realize that continued attacks by Palestinians are the only thing that makes people support Sharon's position, and that ceasing the attacks would benefit everyone. Recall also that when Rabin said that PLO violence had stopped, he was referring only to the PLO itself, not any Palestinian terrorist groups, and that Hamas has become much more powerful since Rabin's assassination. The Palestinians are not guiltless in the cycle of bloodshed. Also, where did you pull blood libels from and why do you use the phrase in such a poor fashion?


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 11:43 PM

Forum Lurker, this thread demonstrates that the only way a death that happens in the occupied territories to a non-Israeli gets any attention or sympathy, is if it happens to someone who is not a Palestinian. The ratio of deaths of Palestinians as compared to Israelis is staggering.

How do you think the Palestinians can get any kind of balanced reporting or attention to their plight when people like you and I don't ever hear about the five or more Palestinians who are killed for every Israeli who is killed in Israel/Palestine? If they try to use passive resistance, you will simply never hear about it. They did try passive resistance in some peaceful protests, and many of them were killed for it even though they were not armed, or even throwing stones. And on at least one occassion, this happened to Israeli citizens who were of Palestinian ancestry, inside Israel, and not the occupied territories. Did you ever hear about that?

I leave you with the words of these American Jews:

Who Will Speak Out?

Alone Among My Peers at My Yeshiva University High School Reunion

On The Rabbis and the Future of Jewish Life

Living with the Holocaust: The Journey of a Child of Holocaust Survivors


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 12:01 AM

I just saw your question about blood libels. I was accused of blood libel earlier in this thread.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 12:11 AM

I hear about Palestinians killed on a more regular basis than Israelis, and each Palestinian death is given more space in the paper than the Israeli deaths. Your media of choice apparently doesn't report it as heavily as mine. Passive resistance can't do any worse than violent resistance, since all that terrorist attacks do is give the IDF more reason and better excuse for the use of force.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 12:48 AM

I hear about Palestinians killed on a more regular basis than Israelis, and each Palestinian death is given more space in the paper than the Israeli deaths.

The fact is that Palestinians are killed on a more regular basis than Israelis. But I almost never see or hear a name or a life story along with the death statistics. Just X number of Palestinians were killed in a retaliatory action by Israel. Whenever Israelis get killed I often hear the names of the ones killed, their age, what they did for a living, how many family members are left to mourn them. If you hear the same kinds of things on a regular basis about the Palestinians who are killed, please tell me what your news source is.

As I said before, when Palestinians have tried passive resistance in the past, they just got butchered for it, and few people outside of Israel and Palestine ever heard about it. Did you ever hear about those peaceful protests, and the deaths of the people who participated in them?

I don't advocate the killing of Israelis by Palestinians any more than I would advocate the killing of Palestinians by Israelis. But I reiterate the fact that when Israel gives the Palestians hope for a better future, the numbers of violent incidents against Israelis goes down. When the Israeli government increases its oppression of the Palestinians, or reneges on its agreements with them, the amount of violence against Israelis increases. So clearly Sharon's policies (and Netanyahu's policies before him), are not producing the effect he says they're meant to produce. They are producing the opposite effect.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 04:06 AM

The term "blood libel" gets thrown around very loosely. Historically it means the lie about Jews being supposed to kill Christian Childrento use the blood as part of a secret Passovr ritual - a version of it is incorporated in the ballad Little Sir Hugh.

It's been a horribly persistant libel over the centuries, and it still gets peddled. It's been suggested that it's a distortion of a libel against Christians by Romans, based on rumours about the Eucharist. It's a lie that should always be challenged.

But the term also seems to get used in a very different sense, as an accusation against allegations that the Israeli government or its agents have been responsible for atrocities against civilians. That seems to me an unworthy and quite unjustifiable extension of the expression. Sadly it seems that such atrocities have taken place, and have nothing to do with "blood libel" any more than they would if it was some other country or people being accused. It's not a blood libel against Palestinians to say thta some of them have caried out suicide bomb attacks, it's a sad truth.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 06:43 AM

CarolC tells us, "They [the Palestinian Arabs] did try passive resistance in some peaceful protests, and many of them were killed for it even though they were not armed, or even throwing stones. And on at least one occassion, this happened to Israeli citizens who were of Palestinian ancestry, inside Israel, and not the occupied territories. Did you ever hear about that?"

My response, and I speak as someone who referred to the Israelis as "a merciless and remorseless oppressor," are these questions:

1. When did the Palestinian Arabs ever try an organized and disciplines campaign of nonviolent resistance? I do not mean "passive resistance in some peaceful protests" within a larger context of armed struggle, such as the IRA and its sympathizers have done in Ireland. I mean a Gandhian style campaign which differentiates itself both from armed struggle and from submissive collaboration.

2. Was it not the Palestinian Arabs who initiated the violence? I do not mean launching the Intifada. I mean the organized attacks on Jews in Palestine that go back to at least 1929 and continued with little abatement until the end of the 1948-1949 Arab-Israeli War. Among the most atrocious of these incidents was the April 1948 massacre, in which Palestinian Arabs wiped out a convoy of 78 doctors, nurses, and medical students who were making their way to Hadassah Hospital on Mount Scopus in Jerusalem. There were certainly massacres committed by the other side -- Deir Yassin readily comes to mind -- but until the aftermath the 1967 war, most acts of violence against civilians were committed by the Arab side.

3. Was it not the Palestinian Arab leadership and the Arab states who rejected the United Nations attempt to resolve the Palestine conflict peacefully in 1947? I know that no one relishes to play the role of a Michael Collins -- and I still enjoy singing Take It Down from the Mast, Irish Traitors -- but there are times when one must realize that the struggle should be political and diplomatic, not military. The Jewish leaders in Palestine didn't like the UN plan -- and it was a Jewish rather than an Arab terrorist who assassinated the UN's chief mediator -- but they were savvy enough to accept the plan in principle. If the Arab leaders had done the same, then such things as borders, the rights of minorities living in each others' territory, resettlement of refugess, etc., would have been settled by negotiations, not force of arms. And the lot of the Palestinians would likely be a heck of a lot better than it is now.

4. Is it too late for the Palestinians of organize a Gandhian campaign at this juncture of history? That question cannot be answered before it is tried. A Gandhian campaign is likely to be met, at least initially, with violence and slander -- which is exactly what happened to Rachel Corrie -- but that must not be the excuse for abandoning the campaign. I still maintain that Rachel Corrie was foolhardy, but hers is exactly the kind of foolhardiness that our present times demand. Through her nonviolent act, she was speaking not only to her Israeli adversaries but to her Palestinian comrades as well.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: Wolfgang
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 07:47 AM

A letter to my Palestinian friends in which Marcia Pailly speaks many of my thoughts.

And I would sometimes wish that of the famous UNSC resolution 242 not only the part
Withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict (mind: it does not say 'the territories' or 'all'; and that was omitted with purpose) is paraphrased or cited in our discussions but also the following
...respect for and acknowledgement of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area.... Both governments involved have a lot to account for in which (quite different) ways they do not honour yet that UNSC demand.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 11:35 AM

Fair questions, Janice in NJ. Some of my answers to your questions are in this thread (that I also linked to above), especially some of your questions about who started the aggression back in the early days of Israel. This thread would be a good start for you while I work on gathering the rest of the information I need to fully answer your questions:

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=56679&messages

Keep in mind that Jewish and Arab Palestinians were living in relative peace before the European Zionists started settling in that area. And the "Palestinians" did at that time commit some atrocities
such as the one you mention. But from your words, I gather you have not heard of the "Nakba" or of the many Palestinian villiages such as Deir Yassin that were brutalized, emptied, and some even slaughtered in cold blood by the European settlers during that same time period. I'll start working on the documentation later today.

Here are a couple to start you off with:

Dier Yassin Remembered

A link to the above site can be found in this site, which is maintained by people who describe themselves as Israeli Zionists:

Coming to Terms with Deir Yassin (by) Ami Isseroff


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 03:37 PM

I do know about Deir Yassin, and I said so in my second question above, but that's not the main point I was making. Each side has committed acts of violence against the other, but the first organized -- some would say orchestrated -- and sustained armed attacks came from Palestinian Arabs against Jewish settlers and sabras (Palestine-born Jews) alike in August 1929. During a week of one-sided violence, 133 Jews were killed throughout Palestine, including children and the elderly. The attacks were led by Hajj Amin al-Husseini, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, who falsely accused the Jewish community of planning to raze Islamic holy sites. Contemporay newspaper accounts reported that al-Husseini issued the call "Itbak al-Yahudeen!" which means "Slaughter the Jews!" More anti-Jewish violence occurred during the late 1930s, which led the British authorities to suspend Jewish immigration in 1939.

While these historical events cannot justify Israel's present day brutality, they certainly help us understand its origins.

"The villainy you teach me I will execute, and it shall go hard, but I will better the instruction." --- Spoken by Shylock in The Merchant of Venice by William Shakespeare.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 04:37 PM

I haven't even begun to answer your questions, Janice. As I said, I will answer them later today (possibly tomorrow). I'm not going to make a halfbaked effort with my answers since you obviously put a lot of time and thought into your questions.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 05:03 PM

When you ahve a cycle of atrocity it may sometimes be possible to identity one incident from one side whiuch started it, but aftrer it's been going on for a couple of generations that ceases to be too relevant.

Imagine this was a vendetta, which in a sense it is. At the root of it from one point of view there would be a particular act of violence by people on one side against people on the other; but dig down past thta root and there will always be other disputes and grievances that led up to that.

Unravelling history like that might make sense as part of some kind of process of truth and reconciliation, in which each side would concentrate its attention on its own atrocities againstvthe other side.

Maybe that'll come about in time, and maybe there are things people can do about it at present. (I believe there were some people working along those lines at one time.) But at present it seems to me the main focus should be on what is happening at the present, and stopping the killing and destruction that is taking place which makes things worse, and leads to more killing and desruction. That was what Rachel was trying to do.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 06:59 PM

McGrath-I agree. Past responsibility is less important than current actions.

Janice-I'm as interested in the answer to your first question as you are, but I think I can answer the others. 2) The violence was pretty much simultaneously begun by both sides, but the Arabs were better armed and more numerous, so they had more success. 3)Yes, you are correct. 4)It is never too late to stop killing, as long as anyone is left alive. CarolC's statement about the counterproductivity of Israeli violence holds equally true for Palestinian terrorism: the more Israelis they kill, the harder the IDF tries to stop them.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: InOBU
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 10:07 PM

There is a report, at the demo today, that another American was shot by Israeli soldiers, and a large number of Palistinians as well, anyone heard the details?
Peace
Larry


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 10:44 PM

I can see this is going to take me at least a couple of days now. I'll post my answers on Saturday or Sunday.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 11:12 PM

Janice;

As far as trying to find a workable plan, I think that digging up stuff that is pushing 5 generations old is a tad non-productive. I mean if we just got back to the creation of Israel, you'll find that Palestinians were good little prisoners for pushing three decades.

But that's not even the isssue. The issue is today and what can be done to stop a cycle of viole3nce on both sides of the conflict. Yeah, I could say that it's all Isreals fault for having the arrogance to bulldoze and occupy Palestian terrrotory. And I couold say that it's the Palestianian's fault for continuing to not reign in the terror of Hamas.

But in reality it is both side's fault. The fact that Isreal has the "fire power" doesn't change the fact that both sides need to chill.

And if the US were to take an "active" role, this could be done. At some point in time it must. Remoinds me of the sick person who doesn't want to go to the doctor for fear of finding out that he or she is indeed, ahhh, sick....

Bobert


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 11:52 PM

What could the U.S. do, except get the Palestinians so angry at us they forget about bombing Israelis? That much we're already trying for.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 06:01 AM

I'm Irish-American, so I'm an expert at digging up stuff that's 50 generations old. A mere 5 generations is only the day before yesterday.

My point, however, is not to fix blame, but to understand the current situation. That's why we study history. And whenever I search the historical record, it becomes clear that the first organized and sustained violence were the Arab attacks against Jews throughout Palestine during August 1929.

And yes, I have heard of al-Nakba, which is Arabic for the Catastrophe, meaning the Israeli Declaration of Independence and the events that followed. The irony is that the Catastrophe, including the Israeli annexation of certain lands allocated to the Arab State of Palestine under the 1947 UN Partition Plan, came about in great part because the combined armies of Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, and the Trans-Jordan invaded Israel on its first day of existence.

Once again, none of this justifies Israel's current policy of brutality, but it helps us understand its origins.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 12:00 PM

The irony is that the Catastrophe, including the Israeli annexation of certain lands allocated to the Arab State of Palestine under the 1947 UN Partition Plan, came about in great part because the combined armies of Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, and the Trans-Jordan invaded Israel on its first day of existence.

This is simply not true. It's one of the many myths about Israel that have been foating around for a long time to the great harm of the Palestinian people. Since you don't seem to be reading my links, I'll provide the relevent text here:

Statehood and Expulsion

What was the Arab reaction to the announcement of the creation of the state of Israel?

"The armies of the Arab states entered the war immediately after the State of Israel was founded in May. Fighting continued, almost all of it within the territory assigned to the Palestinian state...About 700,000 Palestinians fled or were expelled in the 1948 conflict." Noam Chomsky, "The Fateful Triangle."

Was the part of Palestine assigned to a Jewish state in mortal danger from the Arab armies?

"The Arab League hastily called for its member countries to send regular army troops into Palestine. They were ordered to secure only the sections of Palestine given to the Arabs under the partition plan. But these regular armies were ill equipped and lacked any central command to coordinate their efforts...[Jordan's King Abdullah] promised [the Israelis and the British] that his troops, the Arab Legion, the only real fighting force among the Arab armies, would avoid fighting with Jewish settlements...Yet Western historians record this as the moment when the young state of Israel fought off "the overwhelming hordes' of five Arab countries. In reality, the Israeli offensive against the Palestinians intensified." "Our Roots Are Still Alive," by the Peoples Press Palestine Book Project.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 12:08 PM

Here's some information about the Israelis' motivations for their actions during the Nakba (from the same page):

Ethnic cleansing of the Arab population of Palestine

"Joseph Weitz was the director of the Jewish National Land Fund...On December 19, 1940, he wrote: 'It must be clear that there is no room for both peoples in this country...The Zionist enterprise so far...has been fine and good in its own time, and could do with 'land buying' - but this will not bring about the State of Israel; that must come all at once, in the manner of a Salvation (this is the secret of the Messianic idea); and there is no way besides transferring the Arabs from here to the neighboring countries, to transfer them all; except maybe for Bethlehem, Nazareth and Old Jerusalem, we must not leave a single village, not a single tribe'...There were literally hundreds of such statements made by Zionists." Edward Said, "The Question of Palestine."

Ethnic cleansing - continued

"Following the outbreak of 1936, no mainstream (Zionist) leader was able to conceive of future coexistence without a clear physical separation between the two peoples - achievable only by transfer and expulsion. Publicly they all continued to speak of coexistence and to attribute the violence to a small minority of zealots and agitators. But this was merely a public pose..Ben Gurion summed up: 'With compulsory transfer we (would) have a vast area (for settlement)...I support compulsory transfer. I don't see anything immoral in it,'" Israel historian, Benny Morris, "Righteous Victims."

Ethnic cleansing - continued

"Ben-Gurion clearly wanted as few Arabs as possible to remain in the Jewish state. He hoped to see them flee. He said as much to his colleagues and aides in meetings in August, September and October [1948]. But no [general] expulsion policy was ever enunciated and Ben-Gurion always refrained from issuing clear or written expulsion orders; he preferred that his generals 'understand' what he wanted done. He wished to avoid going down in history as the 'great expeller' and he did not want the Israeli government to be implicated in a morally questionable policy...But while there was no 'expulsion policy', the July and October [1948] offensives were characterized by far more expulsions and, indeed, brutality towards Arab civilians than the first half of the war." Benny Morris, "The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947-1949"


I've decided to answer your questions one at a time. I'll be starting with #2 first. I'll be back in a little while with that


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: InOBU
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 01:42 PM

Dear folks... there are a few songs about Rachel above... drop in on the post there. Cheers Larry


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 01:51 PM

Here's the first part of my answer to question number 2:

Among the most atrocious of these incidents was the April 1948 massacre, in which Palestinian Arabs wiped out a convoy of 78 doctors, nurses, and medical students who were making their way to Hadassah Hospital on Mount Scopus in Jerusalem.

I did several Google searches, but I could find no mention of "the April 1948 massacre, in which Palestinian Arabs wiped out a convoy of 78 doctors, nurses, and medical students". I did turn up a lot of other interesting stuff, however. I found this one particularly interesting:

Letter from Ardeshir Mehta to Rabbi Michael Lerner of Tikkun magazine

Norman Finkelstein (see his bio at http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/id17.htm), in Image and Reality of the Israel-Palestine Conflict, writes much more graphically: "By 1948, the Jew was not only able to 'defend himself' but to commit massive atrocities as well. Indeed, according to the former director of the Israeli army archives, 'in almost every village occupied by us during the War of Independence, acts were committed which are defined as war crimes, such as murders, massacres, and rapes' [...] Uri Milstein, the authoritative Israeli military historian of the 1948 war, goes one step further, maintaining that 'every skirmish ended in a massacre of Arabs.'" Note that these are all Jewish, and indeed for the most part Israeli, accounts of what happened, so they cannot be dismissed as "Arab propaganda".

This violent expulsion and expropriation of their property, the event called by Palestinians al-Nakba or "the Disaster" (with a Capital D, as it were), is the very origin of the continuing violence in the Holy Land. This is precisely what before 1948 they feared would happen. As Benny Morris writes, "[Arab opposition to Zionism stemmed from] fear of territorial displacement and dispossession". And this is why they resisted the expropriation of their property with armed force in 1948.

This fact is clearly demonstrated by the fact that on March 22, 1945 the Arab states of that time issued the "Alexandria Protocol", which stated:

"The rights of the Arabs [of Palestine] cannot be touched with prejudice to peace and stability in the Arab world. [... the Arab states were] second to none in regretting the woes which have been inflicted on the Jews of Europe. [...] But [...] there can be no greater injustice and aggression than solving the problem of Europe Jews by [...] inflicting injustice on the Palestine Arabs." (From Righteous Victims by Benny Morris, p. 172.)


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 02:09 PM

Terrorism Statistics for 1940 - 1949

Centre for Defence and International Security Studies

The page in the first link contains reports of terrorist activity around the world from 1945 to 1949. I don't know how complete this list is (I'm still searching for information on that), but of the terrorist acts listed, I have included only those committed by Jewish terrorists and Arab terrorists. This site lists 10 terrorist acts committed by Jewish terrorists in this time period, killing 409 people (at least 254 of them women and children, and five of those killed were Jewish), and wounding 121. It lists one terrorist act committed by Arabs during this time period, killing 13 (presumably Jewish)

Terrorism from 1940 to 1949:

1945

October 31

Jewish terrorist offensive against British rule in Palestine begins, with a wave of bomb attacks on police vehicles, railway sites and Haifa oil refinery. One policeman, one soldier and two railway workers killed.

November 27

Eight British soldiers killed in bomb attack on police station Jerusalem, Palestine, in Jewish Irgun terrorist attack

1946

July 22

Ninety people killed and forty five wounded after Jewish terrorists blow up the King David Hotel in Jerusalem, Palestine, which was home to British government and military offices. The terrorists held workers at pistol point while they planted the explosives in the basement of the hotel.

October 31

British embassy in Rome, Italy, wrecked by two bombs in suit cases left by Jewish Irgun terrorists. No casualties.

1947

July 12

Jewish Irgun terrorists kidnap and then hang two British Army sergeants. The terrorists were trying to secure the release of three Irgun members who had been sentenced to death by the British authorities in Palestine.

September 29

Jewish Irgun terrorists bomb police station in Haifa, Palestine, killing four British and four Arab policemen, as well as two Arab civilians. Forty six people injured.

December 12

Twenty Arabs, five Jews and two British soldiers killed and thirty wounded in Jewish terrorist bomb attacks on buses in Haifa and Ramleh, Palestine. British mandate to rule Palestine ends on 15 May 1948; state of Israel established.

December 29

Jewish Irgun terrorists throw grenades from passing taxi into café near the Damascus gate, Jerusalem, Palestine, killing eleven Arabs and two British policemen.

1948

(This is the year Ghandi was killed.)

March 11

Headquarters of the Jewish Agency, Jerusalem, Palestine, destroyed by Arab car bomb killing thirteen and injuring eighty four.

April 9

Jewish Irgun terrorist group attacks Deir Yassim, Palestine, murdering two hundred and fifty four Arab women and children captured in the remains of the village.

September 17

United Nations mediator in Palestine, Swedish Count Folke Bernadotte, murdered by Jewish Stern gang extremist in Jerusalem, Palestine, who fired at point blank range through window of his official car.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 02:22 PM

Some information on violence committed by Arabs against Jews from this site:

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_mandate_grand_mufti.php

The first Palestine High Commissioner. Sir Herbert Samuel arrived in Palestine on July 1, 1920. He was a weak administrator who was too ready to compromise and appease the extremist, nationalistic Arab minority led by Haj Amin al-Husseini. When the existing Arab Mufti of Jerusalem (religious leader) died in 1921, Samuels was influenced by anti-Zionist British officials on his staff. He pardoned al-Husseini and, in January 1922, appointed him as the new Mufti, and even invented a new title of Grand Mufti. He was simultaneously made President of a newly created Supreme Muslim Council. Al-Husseini thereby became the religious and political leader of the Arabs.

The appointment of the young al-Husseini as Mufti was a seminal event. Prior to his rise to power, there were active Arab factions supporting cooperative development of Palestine involving Arabs and Jews. But al-Husseini would have none of that; he was devoted to driving Jews out of Palestine, without compromise, even if it set back the Arabs 1000 years.

William Ziff, in his book "The Rape of Palestine," summarizes:

Implicated in the [1920] disturbances was a political adventurer named Haj Amin al Husseini. Haj Amin, was sentenced by a British court to fifteen years hard labor. Conveniently allowed to escape by the police, he was a fugitive in Syria. Shortly after, the British then allowed him to return to Palestine where, despite the opposition of the muslim High Council who regarded him as a hoodlum, Haj Amin was appointed by the British High Commissioner as Grand Mufti of Jerusalem for life. [P. 22]

Al-Husseini represented newly emerging proponents of militant, Palestinian Arab nationalism, a previously unknown concept. Once he was in power, he began a campaign of terror and intimidation against anyone opposed to his rule and policies. He killed Jews at every opportunity, but also eliminated Arabs who did not support his campaign of violence. Husseini was not willing to negotiate or make any kind of compromise for the sake of peace.

In 1929, major Arab riots were instigated against the Jews of Palestine . They began when al-Husseini falsely accused Jews of defiling and endangering local mosques, including al-Aqsa. The call went out to the Arab masses: "Itbakh al-Yahud!" — "Slaughter the Jews!" After the killing of Jews in Hebron, the Mufti disseminated photographs of slaughtered Jews with the claim that the dead were Arabs killed by Jews.

In April, 1936 six prominent Arab leaders formed the Arab Higher Committee, with the Grand Mufti Haj Amin al-Husseini as head of the organization, joining forces to protest British support of Zionist progress in Palestine. In the same month, riots broke out in Jaffa commencing a three-year period of violence and civil strife in Palestine that is known as the Arab Revolt . The Arab Higher Committee led the campaign of terrorism against Jewish and British targets.

Using the turmoil of the Arab Revolt as cover, al-Husseini consolidated his control over the Palestinian Arabs with a campaign of murder against Jews and non-compliant Arabs, the recruitment of armed militias, and the raising of funds from around the Muslim world using anti-Jewish propaganda. In 1937 the Grand Mufti expressed his solidarity with Germany, asking the Nazi Third Reich to oppose establishment of a Jewish state, stop Jewish immigration to Palestine, and provide arms to the Arab population. Following an assassination attempt on the British Inspector-General of the Palestine Police Force and the murder by Arab extremists of Jews and moderate Arabs, the Arab Higher Committee was declared illegal by the British. The Grand Mufti lost his office of President of the Supreme muslim Council, his membership on the Waqf committee, and was forced into exile in Syria in 1937. The British deported the Arab mayor of Jerusalem along with other members of the Arab Higher Committee.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 02:40 PM

Now, when I saw that al-Husseini was installed in the British created postion of Grand Mufti, against the wishes of the Arabs of the region, and when I saw what a nasty character he was and how he clearly didn't represent the Palestinians, seeing as how he was just as happy to kill Arabs as Jews, I found myself wondering why the British created that position and installed him in it.

I need to do some more research on it, but I find myself thinking that the Palestinians were the scapegoats in a battle between the British and the European Jewish settlers. The Palestinians had no say in the appointment of al-Husseini. They didn't want him. If they tried to resist him, they were killed. And now they are being blamed for the atrocities committed by him.

So, Janice in NJ, my answer to your question of who started the aggression in Israel/Palestine is most certainly not the Palestinians.

To hold "the Palestinians" responsible for the atrocities committed by this man whom they didn't want, didn't appoint, and who victimized them along with Jews, would be as wrong as holding all Jews responsible for the actions of Ariel Sharon. And that would be very wrong indeed.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 05:27 PM

CarolC-have you encountered any Israeli leaders whose role was similar to Al-Husseini's? You seem to be characterizing the actions of the Israelis as fairly universal, while stating that the Palestinians were entirely innocent. Did the Israelis have a say in whether Irgun massacred Arabs?


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 05:43 PM

CarolC-have you encountered any Israeli leaders whose role was similar to Al-Husseini's?

No. I haven't run across any myself. I am not aware of any of the leaders of the Zionist movement or any Israeli leaders who were appointed by some outside political entity as al Husseini was by the British.

Did the Israelis have a say in whether Irgun massacred Arabs?

Well, I think it would be fair to say that the leaders of Israel had some say in what the Irgun did, being the architects of the agenda that the Irgun were fighting for, even though officially they try to maintain an appearance of separation. Whereas, it was the British who put al Husseini in power against the wishes of the moderate Arab majority, and with an agenda that was not agreed to by the majority of the Arabs in the area, or even by the Arab leaders who preceded Britain's appointment of al Husseini to be their new leader.

So, should all of the European Jewish settlers be held responsible for what the Irgun did? No, definitely not. Should the Israeli (Zionist) leadership of that time be held responsible for the expulsion and terrorization of the Palestinians? Absolutely.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 10:49 PM

First of all, I have followed the links CarolC provided. Some are useful, others not so, but I have read them all. What I cannot believe is that CarolC could find nothing about the Hadassah Hospital massacre. That almost puts her in the same league as the Holocaust deniers, but I'll give her the benefit of the doubt and just ask her to try harder.

For example, the following hit came from a Google search for "Hadassah Hospital 1948":

April 13, 1948 – Attack on Hadassah Convoy to Mount Scopus

After months of sporadic attacks on traffic to Hadassah Hospital on Mount Scopus, local Arabs set mines in the road in the Sheik Jarrah area to block a convoy of 10 vehicles (trucks, buses and ambulances) carrying supplies, nurses, doctors, scientists, and patients. In the attack, 78 are killed, their bodies mutilated, and tens of other are wounded. British soldiers delay intervention for 6 hours while the attack and killing continue.

The local Arab Higher Committee praises the attack, declaring that if the British had not interfered, all the Jews would have been killed.

Days later, on April 26th, Sheik Jarrah is captured by Jewish forces. British soldiers force a Jewish retreat because the May 14th evacuation route from Jerusalem is to be through this area.

Arab forces are allowed to reenter. In retaliation, 2 buildings housing British, Iraqis and local Arabs, are blown up on May 13th.


From the Jerusalem archives website.

Or else, go to the Hadassah website.

You may not like to hear the truth -- anymore than the Israelis and their apologists here in America like to hear the truth about the present struggle -- but please don't pretend that what did happen didn't happen.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 11:37 PM

Janice, did you completely miss my post of Date: 21 Mar 03 - 02:22 PM? In it I included a lot of information about violence committed by Arabs agains Jews.

Nowhere did I deny that the attack on the hospital convoy happened. I only said that I didn't find anything about it in my searches, which is entirely true. A lot of what I find in searches is just plain blind luck. I'm no genius at doing searches. Sometimes I don't find the right combination of key words. In this case I didn't think to include the name of the hospital in the search.

There is no need for you to get nasty. And you don't serve any good purpose by turning this into a mudslinging match.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Mar 03 - 12:09 AM

Ok. I tried "Hadassah Hospital 1948". This is what I got.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=%22Hadassah+Hospital+1948%22%3A&btnG=Google+Search

But I'm going to continue to see what I can find. I don't like to rely on information that only comes from organizations representing one side of the debate. If you look at the "about us" links in most of the sites I use quotes from, you'll see that most of them are websites that belong to Jewish organizations. I never use a quote that can only be found on a Palestinian or Arab website, unless it's a direct quote from an historic figure, and even then, I try to find the quote elsewhere before I use it. And I prefer not to blindly accept information that can only be found on websites that belong to Jewish organizations. Propaganda is a common thing on both sides of this debate.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Mar 03 - 12:23 AM

Ha. Joke's on me. I left the colon in on that search. But then I used the same search without the colon at the end and this is what I got:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=%22Hadassah+Hospital+1948%22&btnG=Google+Search


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 22 Mar 03 - 10:18 AM

People, do not be fooled by a disinformation campaign disguised as dialogue. Do not use the links above, but go to Google yourself and search for "Hadassah Hospital 1948" as I did. You will get more than ten pages of hits, many of them accounts from contemporary and credible sources. Even better, type in "Hadassah Hospital April 13, 1948" and follow the results carefully and with a critical eye.

But then again, maybe Bloody Sunday was the result of IRA gunmen firing into the crowd of Civil Rights marchers?

Maybe the Holocaust never happened, and those piles of bodies were the corpses of German soldiers killed on the Russian front?

Maybe the Polish officers of the Katyn Forest were killed by the Nazis?

And maybe the dead of Mount Scopus were Irgun terrorists on their way to massacre Arabs when they thought they came under fire, opened up with automatic weapons, and then mistakenly shot others in their same convoy?

Far fetched? Of course, but we have all seen arguments like that. So let's look at what the report of the International Committee of the Red Cross on the Deir Yassin massacre had to say about the Hadassah Hospital attack, which it regarded as retaliation:

A "take no prisoners" massacre by Arab guerrillas of a convoy of medical personnel to Hadassah Hospital on Mount Scopus, that included Jewish medical personnel, occurred on the 13th in Sheikh Jerakh near Mt. Scopus. Seventy-eight civilian medical personnel were killed, as well as five of the defenders accompanying the convoy. The British forces, who witnessed the entire incident, did almost nothing to stop it, apparently to allow retribution for Deir Yassin. An additional massacre of surrendered defenders at Kfar Etzion on May 14, 1948, has also been attributed to Deir Yassin.

Yup, Deir Yassin happened. Bloody Sunday happened. The Holocaust happened. The Katyn Forest happened. And Hadassah Hospital happened. Never allow anyone to consign any of these down some Orwellian "memory hole."


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 22 Mar 03 - 10:36 AM

CarolC-you say that your sources come from both sides, because they belong to Jewish and Palestinian groups, not one or the other. Are all "Jewish" sources necessarily on the Israelie side of the conflict? Since they obviously aren't, how is a Jewish apologist site for Palestinian terrorism any different than a Palestinian site for the same purpose?


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Mar 03 - 02:17 PM

Janice, you're a fruitcake. I'm not going to talk to you any more, but I'll answer the questions you posed because they've been put out there, and they deserve an answer. Have a nice life.

Forum Lurker, I think I phrased that badly. What I was trying to say, and I hope I do a better job of it this time, is that if I see something that could be construed as being critical of Israel, or even something that disputes the prevailing point of view about events in the region, and it comes from a Palestinian or Arab source (or any source that promotes hatred of any kind), I will not use it. What I will do is see if I can find it in some other kind of source. That might include a website maintained by Jews, or maybe a news source that is held to certain standards of journalistic accountability.

There is a website that I would dearly love to provide links to because it contains a lot of quotes from early Zionist leaders. It is a site that is maintained by displaced Palestinians. I will not provide any links to that site unless I can find another corroborating source for those quotes in a site that is maintained by either Jews, an international human rights organization, or a university's historical department, or something along those lines.

Conversely, if I see material that is critical of Palestinians, or that promotes an historical view that seems like it could be biased against Palestinians, and it is in a site that is maintained by a Jewish organization, I would like to find a source for it that maintained by someone who is not affiliated with any Jewish organizations. I would like to find it in a site that is maintained by Palestinians, or an international human rights organization, or something along those lines.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Mar 03 - 02:47 PM

Janice (look, I'm talking to you!) the problem with your search parameters is the quotes. I copy/pasted your exact search parameters and you saw the results above. I have just now tried your key words without using the quotes and I did get several hits. Interestingly, one of them was this page, located about four hits down the page. This page is in the site I mentioned above (maintained by Palestinians) that I won't use in support of any of my posts unless I can find corroborating sources.

I still don't understand why you maintain that I'm denying that it happened, and you're still a fruitcake.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Mar 03 - 04:17 PM

Now that piece about the Haddassah massacre posted by Janice at 21 Mar 03 - 10:49 PM provides a clear example of the distortions that creep into reports on a cycle of violence.

Read that report about the massacre of April 13th out of context and the fact that out follows hard upon the massacre of Deir Yassan on April 9th and was a reprisal form that isn't apparent. But a context is provided for a later atrocity - "In retaliation, 2 buildings housing British, Iraqis and local Arabs, are blown up on May 13th."

And I'm not accusing Janice of distortion here. Nor am I suggesting that a counter-atrocity in reprisal for an atrocity (which is itself a counter-atrocity) is in any way ever justified. But inevitably any account of these kind of events risks distorting what is going on, by virtue of the date at which is starts and finishes, and the incidents which are included and not included.

That is the process by which two sides in any intercommunal conflict build up completely different stories about what has happened over the years, and each presents a one-sided picture. Even when story is factually true, neither is complete. And half the truth is in effect a kind of lie.

What Carol C seems to me to be doing is to try to ferret out and present the half of the truth that tends to be left out.

But as I said up the thread, I think that making sense of the past and setting record straight is not the main priority, in face of some of the things that are being done right now, while the attention of the world is turned to other things.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 22 Mar 03 - 04:23 PM

In keeping with the spirit of nonviolence, sisterhood, and common courtesy, I'll let the "fruitcake" remark go unanswered. Anyway, as one who has participated in ILGO's attempts to march in the New York Saint Patrick's Day parades, I have been called a lot worse. But let me ask an important question: Does CarolC not understand that we are essentially on the same side? I truly believe that we both wish to see the Israelis evacuate the Arab territories they captured in 1967. I believe we both wish to see the establishment of an independent Palestinian Arab state. I believe we both wish to see this come about without further violence. And I believe we both wish to honor the bravery of Rachel Corrie, the young woman who lost her life because she chose to speak Truth to Power.

Has anyone noticed? Or are y'all just enjoying a good old-fashioned cat fight?


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Mar 03 - 04:35 PM

Beats me, Janice. My view must have been clouded by your accusations that I should be compared to holocaust deniers and people of that sort.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Mar 03 - 04:50 PM

Janice in NJ, I cannot share your faith in Gandhiesque resistance. It was tried in China in 1989 and the subsequent reprisals were shown on television worldwide. The fighting between the Israeli's and the Palestinians are because two nations are tring to occupy the same land which is probably not large enough for either. If you put two tigeresses and their cubs on an Island only large enough to support one they will fight. Does it matter which one strikes first?

I'm glad that you are on Carol's side. I shudder to think of where this debate might have gone if you weren't


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Mar 03 - 04:53 PM

You've both clicked over to the other thread and read InOBU's song about Rachel Corrie?

Yes, and I had noticed that both Janice and Carol don't seem too far apart in their positions. Of course you need to be quite close to have a fist fight...


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Mar 03 - 05:36 PM

Non-violent resistance doesn't mean people don't get killed. It might even mean just as many people getting killed. Perhaps even more people. The point is that there is a hope that their deaths will achieve something that wouldn't have been achieved by violent resustance.

Non-violent resistance isn't a soft option for achieving the goals you want without pain and risk and a very heavy cost, including deaths.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: GUEST,Push Me Pull You
Date: 22 Mar 03 - 06:23 PM

A bit of creep has got into this thread. But on the 20th McGrath wrote re: Rachel:

"But at present it seems to me the main focus should be on what is happening at the present, and stopping the killing and destruction that is taking place which makes things worse, and leads to more killing and desruction. That was what Rachel was trying to do."

Rachel was NOT trying to stop any killing. She was trying to stop a bulldozer. And unlike the Chinese student in front of the Chinese tank, which you were favorably comparing to the Israeli dozer operator, she was not standing where she could be seen.

And if the opinions expressed in this forum are anything to go by, she didn't increase any peaceful understanding of the issues, but further polarized existing issues.

Way to go, Rache.


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Subject: Lyr Add: TREADMARKS (Susan Weber)
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 22 Mar 03 - 07:10 PM

Let's take a moment to recall that a similar incident happened here in America. This is taken from the Southern Poverty Law Center's Civil Rights Memorial:

REV. BRUCE KLUNDER was among civil rights activists who protested the building of a segregated school by placing their bodies in the way of construction equipment. Klunder was crushed to death when a bulldozer backed over him.

APRIL 7, 1964 -- Cleveland, Ohio



Here are the lyrics to Treadmarks, a song Susan Weber wrote about the incident 30 years later:

His neighbors say he was a soft-spoken man,
Fond of joke and quick to smile.
He led his people to the promised land.
Walked with them the extra mile.

Standing at the pulpit on a warm spring day
In Cleveland, nineteen sixty-four.
Young Reverend Bruce said in his peaceful way:
We can't sit quiet anymore.

They want to build a school house for colored children.
With hasty plans, no place for the kids to play.
There is no kindness in the walls they're building.
Just white folks keeping blacks away.


(chorus)
Tread marks deep across the pastor's shoulders.
Head turned sideways, glasses bent.
Tread marks making little children older.
Who will hear their soul's lament?


The people came to that construction site.
A muddy field, a band of kin.
Young Reverend Bruce had wrestled all through the night,
To find the plan that he brought with him.

Some folks lay down before that towering shovel.
Bruce walked slowly to the rear.
He put himself behind that huge bulldozer,
Shouting warnings none could hear.

Some say the minister had wildly rushed
Beneath those mighty grinding treads.
Others claim their friend was cruelly crushed.
But all could see the man lay dead.


(repeat chorus)
(instrumental bridge)


Children wonder, half a lifetime later,
Why did he do that tragic act?
Who can tell them, "Hold your shoulders straighter".
Who's had tread marks across his back?


(repeat chorus)

Will someone write a song for Rachel Corrie 30 years from now? I dearly hope she is remembered, not just in a name, but in the message she brought to Israelis and Palestinians alike.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Mar 03 - 07:23 PM

I take it, Push-me, that you haven't been reading the news too attentive recently - or maybe it's that the papers round your way are selective in what they print.

There have been a number of cases where people have been killed in their homes by those bulldozers. It happened only the other day to a pregnant Palestinian woman. Death and destruction go hand in hand together.

Here's a quote from an Amnesty International site about such an incident:

"I looked and saw one of the large bulldozers coming from the west side bulldozing the al-Shu'bi family house and I saw the house tilt over. Without even thinking, I yelled to the soldier in the bulldozer, 'Let the residents leave the house.' At this point the soldier came out of the bulldozer, took his weapon and started to fire in my direction." Ten members of the Shu'bi family were buried under their house in Nablus for six days, only two survived.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: Troll
Date: 22 Mar 03 - 11:09 PM

As I have posted before, Gandhi was sucessful because he knew his enemy. He knew that the British Government would not kill his followers if they offered no violence but sat passively.
Had he tried passive resistance against the Germans of the French, for instance, it would have been a different story and a very short one at that.

troll


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: InOBU
Date: 23 Mar 03 - 12:33 AM

Dear Troll:
I have to say, thank God Gandhi was not at Bloody Sunday in Derry, but than again, he knew of Jillianwalla, so did he not fight for knowlege of the peaceful intent of the British. No. If you think the British love life more than the Germans or French, ask Eric Stolier, the husband of an old friend of my mother.
Eric is the only survivor of the 800 + Rumanian Jewish refugees of the Sturma. Who killed the 800 + souls aboard that "ship"? The Rumanian nazi's who forced them to flee? The ship owners who put 800 people in a converted wooden schooner built in 1830, hanging together - just bearly by use of rusted metal plates? The Turks who, after the Struma drifed into their waters when the engine failed, starved them for months in the harbour than towed them to see among mines in a sinking crippled ship? The Russians who torpedoed the doomed ship? The British who refused to allow the ship into Palsitine, knowing by then the fate of Rumanian Jews? Well, I would not put much faith in the humanity of many nations today.
Hope for a better world
Larry


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Mar 03 - 02:57 PM

"He knew that the British Government would not kill his followers if they offered no violence but sat passively."

Ever heard of the Amritsar massacre? Gabdhi knew that the British were quite capable of killing unarmed opponents. He also knew that Inbdians were quite capable of turning to violent revolt.

Once again, non-violence is not about not being on the receiving end of violence, it's about refusing to be on the delivering end. Nobody says that because soldiers get killed in a war that in itself means that the war was unsuccesful. Where does the idea come from that when non-violent activists get killed this must mean that non-violence doesn't have a chance of working?


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Mar 03 - 08:08 PM

In answer to Janice from NJ's question #1, here are a couple of organizations started by Palestinians that use nonviolent approaches to solving problems between Israel and Palestine:

Arab Association for Human Rights

Mansur Kardosh was HRA's Chairperson from its establishment in 1988 until his death in November 1998. He spent all of his life defending the cause of the Palestinian people and was untiring in his struggle for justice and human rights. As a result, he suffered arrests and exile, yet he continued to work with dedication and self-sacrifice.

The late Abu Tawfiq, Mansur Kardosh, was born in Nazareth in 1921, and was educated first at the Friends School in Ramallah, and then in Beirut. Following the 1948 Nakbah, he became involved in a number of political activities.

In 1959, he co-founded the El-Ard Movement, which campaigned against the conditions of military rule prevailing over the Palestinian minority. He remained one of the Movement's leaders until the Israeli Minister of Defence outlawed it in 1966.

In 1975, the late Abu Tawfiq helped to establish the Al-Saut Publishing Association, and subsequently to set up the Friends of Prisoners Association. As its Chairperson for 8 years, he worked tirelessly to defend the rights of Palestinian political prisoners. In the 80s he established the Association for Growth and Development; in 1988, the Arab Association for Human Rights (HRA), and in 1997, he helped establish Adalah. He remained the HRA's Chairperson until his death.

Mansur Kardosh was a man of high integrity and dedication, who gave of himself generously and courageously. He faced many forms of harassment for his political attitudes and activities, and was regularly arrested and even exiled from Nazareth. He gained his moral stature in his ability to persist, in his unbreakable belief in human rights and justice, and also in his personal qualities. Abu Tawfiq exemplified an attitude of tolerance and compassion, and was to those around him both a teacher and a compass: in honesty, justice and patriotism. He is sorely missed.


Palestinian Group Advocates Path of Non-Violent Resistance Published on Monday, September 24, 2001 in the Toronto Star

The Palestine Center for Conflict Resolution and Reconciliation

This is the story of what happened to this organization when the Israeli army sent tanks and troops into Bethlehem, declaring the area a military zone and effectively imprisoning people in their homes.

Noah's Story


Here are links to other organizations advocating non-violent solutions that are either Palestinian organizations, or cooperative efforts between Palestinians and Israelis:

The Palestinian Independent Commission for Citizens' Rights
(PICCR)


The PICCR was established in 1994 and accorded official status by Yasser Arafat as an independent organization which oversees government actions in the area of citizens' rights. PICCR's goal is to ensure the compliance of the Palestinian Authority with international human rights standards and the principles of good government...

...In its first year of operation, 350 complaints were submitted, about one fourth of which resulted in intervention from PICCR to the ministry or agency involved, recommending a change of policy.

Law : The Palestinian Society for the Protection of Human Rights & the Environment

Adalah

Addamir Prisoner ' Support Center

The Alternative Information Center

Al Liqa' Center for Religious and Heritage Studies in the Holy Land

Coalition of Women for a Just Peace

Democracy and Workers Rights Center

Negev Coexistence Forum

Friends of the Earth Middle East (FoEME)

Gaza Community Mental Health Programme (GCMHP)

Israel-Palestine Center for Research and Information (IPCRI)

Ittijah: Union of Arab Community Based Associations

The Mandela Institute for Prisoners

Palestine Human Rights Information Center
(PHRIC)


Palestinian Center for Human Rights (PCHR)

Palestinian Human Rights Monitoring Group (PHRMG)

The Social Development Committee of Haifa

Ta'ayush Arab Jewish partnership

The Peoples' voice


Here is a page of links to human rights and peace groups and organizations from around the world:

Ariga : Human Rights and Peace Groups


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Mar 03 - 10:01 PM

The following article names several Palestinian organizations that work toward non-violent solutions in Israel/Palestine:

Peace Teams News

This is a multi-national web-based peace initiative that includes people of several Arab nationalities. It also lists a few more Palestinian organizations that are working to help bring peace in Israel/Palestine:

MidEastWeb Group


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: Suffet
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 06:35 AM

To Carol and Janice, in memory of Rachel Corrie...


It's a hungry restless feeling that don't do no one no good,
And everything I'm here saying, you can say it just as good,
You're right from your side, but I'm right from mine,
It's just one too many mornings and a thousand miles behind.


-- Bob Dylan, One Too Many Mornings



If we ever expect people to forgive their enemies, we can start by forgiving our friends.

-- Pete Seeger, explaining why he started appearing with Burl Ives again.



When we get there we'll discover
All of the gifts we've been given to share,
Have been with us since life's beginnings,
We never noticed they were there."


-- Pat Humphries, Swimming to the Other Side

As I think about it, Pat's song is too damn good and important for just an excerpt. Here's a link to the complete lyrics.


--- Steve


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 08:46 AM

Thanks Steve. Like I said earlier in this thread; we all serve in our own way and to the best of our abilities.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 09:30 AM

And here is a link that gives you Pat Humphries singing that song of hers - http://www.npr.org/programs/atc/features/2002/may/humphries/


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: Wolfgang
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 10:19 AM

That almost puts her in the same league as the Holocaust deniers

I can understand that you consider Carol's posts and links about Palestine as one-sided (or: half of the truth, to use McGrath's words), Janice, but that comparison, even with the slight modifier 'almost' is completely out of proportion, in my eyes.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 06:17 PM

I was expressing frustration at what appeared to be a conscious effort to deny that the Hadassah Hospital massacre ever took place. As such, it seemed just too much like the Big Lies we hear all too frequently. I just couldn't imagine that, protests to the contrary notwithstanding, someone as articulate and well informed as CarolC could be so inept in finding anything about the incident on the Internet. My conclusiuon, which I now admit was likely mistaken, is that she was engaged in a campaign of disinformation. I apologize for the tone of my remarks.

However, I make no apology whatsoever for the four questions I posed on March 20. I have followed CarolC's links carefully, but I still believe the issues I raised have not been fully addressed. That there have been Palestinian nonviolent activists does not mean that an organized and disciplined nonviolent campaign has been attempted by the Palestinians. And the fact that the Grand Mufti was installed by the British does not negate the fact that many Palestinian Arabs heeded his calls to kill the Jews.

Nor do I apologize for regarding Rachel Corrie as foolhardy, even though I admire her foolhardiness. More important, I still believe hers was the kind of foolhardiness we could use more of, as opposed to the Bush-Blair brand of foolhardiness.

But enough already. Your favorite fruitcake throws in the proverbial towel!


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 06:40 PM

I personally have no problem with your having asked the questions, and I was prepared to continue answering them until you felt they had been fully addressed. However, since you have thrown in the proverbial towel, and since answering your questions takes up a lot of my time, I'll now focus my energies on other things


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 06:43 PM

"Foolhardy: foolishly venturesome, delighting in needless risks." Concise Oxford dictionary.

I don't think "foolhardy" is the right word at all, and I don't think there's anything to be said for being foolhardy, except in games, and this isn't a game.

I think maybe Janice might be thinking of "Reckless: Devoid of caution, regardless of cosequences, rash; heedless of danger." And that is not at all the same thing.

But I'd say the best word is just "courageous" - and that's something I'm sure we need more of.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 07:13 PM

Janice in NJ, if it is you who are alleging this massacre and putting it forth as part of you dubious point it is you who should find the links and provide the sources to back up you assertions.

" That there have been Palestinian nonviolent activists does not mean that an organized and disciplined nonviolent campaign has been attempted by the Palestinians"

I guess that it depends upon your perception of the qualifiers that you have used.

There have been organized campaigns, I would submit that the campaign in which Rachel died was one of them. There have been dicplined campaigns there have been nonviolent ones. Would it satisfy you if we, and CarolC especially, were to admit that Yasser Arafat is not Ghandi? Even Ghandi protest was not completely organized and diciplined there was also violence perpetrated buy Indians during the same years as the campaigns. Was he not killed by one of the very people he trying to liberate?

Fighting for freedom is not always pretty. People don't alway do what you would expect. They do what they can.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 07:19 PM

Gabdhi?


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 07:30 PM

Interesting point, JtS. It does seem a bit hypocritical for people in the US and Israel, both of them countries that won their independence using violent methods and terrorist tactics, to completely deny any sort of basic human rights to the Palestinians because they are also using violence as a way of trying to gain their independence.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: Suffet
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 08:41 PM

Greetings:

At the risk of being dragged into someone else's fight, let me give Jack the Sailor the documentation he asked of Janice. The International Committee of the Red Cross sent a team to Deir Yassin on April 11, 1948, two days after the Irgun committed the massacre. In their report, the investigators also mentioned the April 13 reprisal attack near Mount Scopus that Janice calls the Hadassah Hospital massacre. Here is a link to an English translation of that ICRC report, the original being in French. Read it and draw your own conclusion. There are many other sources, including the Hadassah website which Janice cited earlier.

--- Steve


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 11:38 PM

Thanks for that link Steve.

And the fact that the Grand Mufti was installed by the British does not negate the fact that many Palestinian Arabs heeded his calls to kill the Jews.

I've decided to address this point because I think it sorely needs to be addressed. The fact that you make this point shows me that you missed my point entirely. I said:

"To hold "the Palestinians" responsible for the atrocities committed by this man whom they didn't want, didn't appoint, and who victimized them along with Jews, would be as wrong as holding all Jews responsible for the actions of Ariel Sharon. And that would be very wrong indeed."

I did not say that the Palestinians who committed these acts should not be held responsible. I said that it is wrong to punish or hold responsible an entire people ("the Palestinians") for the actions of some of them. We would never advocate punishing or holding responsible all Jews ("the Jews") for the actions of the Irgun terrorists. We would never advocate punishing or holding reponsible all Jews or Israelis for the actions of Ariel Sharon.

And yet you seem to be justifying the collective punishment of an entire people based on the actions of some of the members of that group of people. Collective punishment is not only morally wrong, it is also against international law and the Geneva convention. Why the double standard?


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 02:49 PM

Mt. Scopus was probably an Irgun operation with a triple purpose, (1) to divert world attention from Deir Yassin four days before, (2) to blame the Arabs and in doing so inflame the more moderate zionist elements against them, (3) to punish the M.D.A. (zionist Red Cross)and Haddassah itself for helping the international Red Cross rescue the survivers and take the bodies away from Deir Yassin.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: GUEST,Push Me Pull You
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 08:53 PM

I think it's fine going into the minutiae of Israel's War for Independence. BUT: That's what it was. Israel won. Rather than take the cheap line of 'get over it' I propose we get ON with it. I suggest that alleviating Israel's concern with being provided defensible borders would go a long way to alleviating the problem. This would entail the resettlement of BOTH Israelis AND Palestinians. The Israelis have already shown they have the capability of resettlements when they stand to gain. Let's see if the Palestinians are up to THAT challenge!

If you wish to answer: But it's their land. My short anser is:

Not any more.

Arigato


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 10:01 PM

Oh yeah? I wonder how long Israel could hold on to that land without the BILLIONS of dollars of financial and military aid they recieve every year from the US taxpayers. Maybe we should let them try. After all, it's our money.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 11:01 PM

CarolC- Well, they did it before we started giving them aid, from a far weaker position, against far stronger opposition. It would probably reduce Iraeli quality of life, and increase the number of Israeli casualties from terrorists. If you think those are admirable goals, by all means lobby for it.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 11:06 PM

I don't necessarily think they're admirable goals. But I do think that our financial and military aid should be conditional upon Israel abiding by the terms of the UN resolutions and the Geneva convention.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 11:13 PM

That's ridiculous. We can't hold other nations to higher standards than we ourselves hold to.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 11:34 PM

*G*

Maybe not. But we don't have to send them money if we don't like what they're doing with it.


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