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Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer From: CarolC Date: 27 Mar 03 - 11:34 PM *G* Maybe not. But we don't have to send them money if we don't like what they're doing with it. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer From: Forum Lurker Date: 27 Mar 03 - 11:13 PM That's ridiculous. We can't hold other nations to higher standards than we ourselves hold to. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer From: CarolC Date: 27 Mar 03 - 11:06 PM I don't necessarily think they're admirable goals. But I do think that our financial and military aid should be conditional upon Israel abiding by the terms of the UN resolutions and the Geneva convention. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer From: Forum Lurker Date: 27 Mar 03 - 11:01 PM CarolC- Well, they did it before we started giving them aid, from a far weaker position, against far stronger opposition. It would probably reduce Iraeli quality of life, and increase the number of Israeli casualties from terrorists. If you think those are admirable goals, by all means lobby for it. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer From: CarolC Date: 27 Mar 03 - 10:01 PM Oh yeah? I wonder how long Israel could hold on to that land without the BILLIONS of dollars of financial and military aid they recieve every year from the US taxpayers. Maybe we should let them try. After all, it's our money. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer From: GUEST,Push Me Pull You Date: 27 Mar 03 - 08:53 PM I think it's fine going into the minutiae If you wish to answer: But it's their land. My short anser is: Not any more. Arigato |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer From: GUEST Date: 27 Mar 03 - 02:49 PM Mt. Scopus was probably an Irgun operation with a triple purpose, (1) to divert world attention from Deir Yassin four days before, (2) to blame the Arabs and in doing so inflame the more moderate zionist elements against them, (3) to punish the M.D.A. (zionist Red Cross)and Haddassah itself for helping the international Red Cross rescue the survivers and take the bodies away from Deir Yassin. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer From: CarolC Date: 24 Mar 03 - 11:38 PM Thanks for that link Steve. And the fact that the Grand Mufti was installed by the British does not negate the fact that many Palestinian Arabs heeded his calls to kill the Jews. I've decided to address this point because I think it sorely needs to be addressed. The fact that you make this point shows me that you missed my point entirely. I said: "To hold "the Palestinians" responsible for the atrocities committed by this man whom they didn't want, didn't appoint, and who victimized them along with Jews, would be as wrong as holding all Jews responsible for the actions of Ariel Sharon. And that would be very wrong indeed." I did not say that the Palestinians who committed these acts should not be held responsible. I said that it is wrong to punish or hold responsible an entire people ("the Palestinians") for the actions of some of them. We would never advocate punishing or holding responsible all Jews ("the Jews") for the actions of the Irgun terrorists. We would never advocate punishing or holding reponsible all Jews or Israelis for the actions of Ariel Sharon. And yet you seem to be justifying the collective punishment of an entire people based on the actions of some of the members of that group of people. Collective punishment is not only morally wrong, it is also against international law and the Geneva convention. Why the double standard? |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer From: Suffet Date: 24 Mar 03 - 08:41 PM Greetings: At the risk of being dragged into someone else's fight, let me give Jack the Sailor the documentation he asked of Janice. The International Committee of the Red Cross sent a team to Deir Yassin on April 11, 1948, two days after the Irgun committed the massacre. In their report, the investigators also mentioned the April 13 reprisal attack near Mount Scopus that Janice calls the Hadassah Hospital massacre. Here is a link to an English translation of that ICRC report, the original being in French. Read it and draw your own conclusion. There are many other sources, including the Hadassah website which Janice cited earlier. --- Steve |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer From: CarolC Date: 24 Mar 03 - 07:30 PM Interesting point, JtS. It does seem a bit hypocritical for people in the US and Israel, both of them countries that won their independence using violent methods and terrorist tactics, to completely deny any sort of basic human rights to the Palestinians because they are also using violence as a way of trying to gain their independence. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer From: GUEST, heric Date: 24 Mar 03 - 07:19 PM Gabdhi? |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer From: Jack the Sailor Date: 24 Mar 03 - 07:13 PM Janice in NJ, if it is you who are alleging this massacre and putting it forth as part of you dubious point it is you who should find the links and provide the sources to back up you assertions. " That there have been Palestinian nonviolent activists does not mean that an organized and disciplined nonviolent campaign has been attempted by the Palestinians" I guess that it depends upon your perception of the qualifiers that you have used. There have been organized campaigns, I would submit that the campaign in which Rachel died was one of them. There have been dicplined campaigns there have been nonviolent ones. Would it satisfy you if we, and CarolC especially, were to admit that Yasser Arafat is not Ghandi? Even Ghandi protest was not completely organized and diciplined there was also violence perpetrated buy Indians during the same years as the campaigns. Was he not killed by one of the very people he trying to liberate? Fighting for freedom is not always pretty. People don't alway do what you would expect. They do what they can. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 24 Mar 03 - 06:43 PM "Foolhardy: foolishly venturesome, delighting in needless risks." Concise Oxford dictionary. I don't think "foolhardy" is the right word at all, and I don't think there's anything to be said for being foolhardy, except in games, and this isn't a game. I think maybe Janice might be thinking of "Reckless: Devoid of caution, regardless of cosequences, rash; heedless of danger." And that is not at all the same thing. But I'd say the best word is just "courageous" - and that's something I'm sure we need more of. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer From: CarolC Date: 24 Mar 03 - 06:40 PM I personally have no problem with your having asked the questions, and I was prepared to continue answering them until you felt they had been fully addressed. However, since you have thrown in the proverbial towel, and since answering your questions takes up a lot of my time, I'll now focus my energies on other things |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer From: Janice in NJ Date: 24 Mar 03 - 06:17 PM I was expressing frustration at what appeared to be a conscious effort to deny that the Hadassah Hospital massacre ever took place. As such, it seemed just too much like the Big Lies we hear all too frequently. I just couldn't imagine that, protests to the contrary notwithstanding, someone as articulate and well informed as CarolC could be so inept in finding anything about the incident on the Internet. My conclusiuon, which I now admit was likely mistaken, is that she was engaged in a campaign of disinformation. I apologize for the tone of my remarks. However, I make no apology whatsoever for the four questions I posed on March 20. I have followed CarolC's links carefully, but I still believe the issues I raised have not been fully addressed. That there have been Palestinian nonviolent activists does not mean that an organized and disciplined nonviolent campaign has been attempted by the Palestinians. And the fact that the Grand Mufti was installed by the British does not negate the fact that many Palestinian Arabs heeded his calls to kill the Jews. Nor do I apologize for regarding Rachel Corrie as foolhardy, even though I admire her foolhardiness. More important, I still believe hers was the kind of foolhardiness we could use more of, as opposed to the Bush-Blair brand of foolhardiness. But enough already. Your favorite fruitcake throws in the proverbial towel! |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer From: Wolfgang Date: 24 Mar 03 - 10:19 AM That almost puts her in the same league as the Holocaust deniers I can understand that you consider Carol's posts and links about Palestine as one-sided (or: half of the truth, to use McGrath's words), Janice, but that comparison, even with the slight modifier 'almost' is completely out of proportion, in my eyes. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 24 Mar 03 - 09:30 AM And here is a link that gives you Pat Humphries singing that song of hers - http://www.npr.org/programs/atc/features/2002/may/humphries/ |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer From: CarolC Date: 24 Mar 03 - 08:46 AM Thanks Steve. Like I said earlier in this thread; we all serve in our own way and to the best of our abilities. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer From: Suffet Date: 24 Mar 03 - 06:35 AM To Carol and Janice, in memory of Rachel Corrie... It's a hungry restless feeling that don't do no one no good, And everything I'm here saying, you can say it just as good, You're right from your side, but I'm right from mine, It's just one too many mornings and a thousand miles behind. -- Bob Dylan, One Too Many Mornings If we ever expect people to forgive their enemies, we can start by forgiving our friends. -- Pete Seeger, explaining why he started appearing with Burl Ives again. When we get there we'll discover All of the gifts we've been given to share, Have been with us since life's beginnings, We never noticed they were there." -- Pat Humphries, Swimming to the Other Side As I think about it, Pat's song is too damn good and important for just an excerpt. Here's a link to the complete lyrics. --- Steve |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer From: CarolC Date: 23 Mar 03 - 10:01 PM The following article names several Palestinian organizations that work toward non-violent solutions in Israel/Palestine: Peace Teams News This is a multi-national web-based peace initiative that includes people of several Arab nationalities. It also lists a few more Palestinian organizations that are working to help bring peace in Israel/Palestine: MidEastWeb Group |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer From: CarolC Date: 23 Mar 03 - 08:08 PM In answer to Janice from NJ's question #1, here are a couple of organizations started by Palestinians that use nonviolent approaches to solving problems between Israel and Palestine: Arab Association for Human Rights Mansur Kardosh was HRA's Chairperson from its establishment in 1988 until his death in November 1998. He spent all of his life defending the cause of the Palestinian people and was untiring in his struggle for justice and human rights. As a result, he suffered arrests and exile, yet he continued to work with dedication and self-sacrifice. The late Abu Tawfiq, Mansur Kardosh, was born in Nazareth in 1921, and was educated first at the Friends School in Ramallah, and then in Beirut. Following the 1948 Nakbah, he became involved in a number of political activities. In 1959, he co-founded the El-Ard Movement, which campaigned against the conditions of military rule prevailing over the Palestinian minority. He remained one of the Movement's leaders until the Israeli Minister of Defence outlawed it in 1966. In 1975, the late Abu Tawfiq helped to establish the Al-Saut Publishing Association, and subsequently to set up the Friends of Prisoners Association. As its Chairperson for 8 years, he worked tirelessly to defend the rights of Palestinian political prisoners. In the 80s he established the Association for Growth and Development; in 1988, the Arab Association for Human Rights (HRA), and in 1997, he helped establish Adalah. He remained the HRA's Chairperson until his death. Mansur Kardosh was a man of high integrity and dedication, who gave of himself generously and courageously. He faced many forms of harassment for his political attitudes and activities, and was regularly arrested and even exiled from Nazareth. He gained his moral stature in his ability to persist, in his unbreakable belief in human rights and justice, and also in his personal qualities. Abu Tawfiq exemplified an attitude of tolerance and compassion, and was to those around him both a teacher and a compass: in honesty, justice and patriotism. He is sorely missed. Palestinian Group Advocates Path of Non-Violent Resistance Published on Monday, September 24, 2001 in the Toronto Star The Palestine Center for Conflict Resolution and Reconciliation This is the story of what happened to this organization when the Israeli army sent tanks and troops into Bethlehem, declaring the area a military zone and effectively imprisoning people in their homes. Noah's Story Here are links to other organizations advocating non-violent solutions that are either Palestinian organizations, or cooperative efforts between Palestinians and Israelis: The Palestinian Independent Commission for Citizens' Rights (PICCR) The PICCR was established in 1994 and accorded official status by Yasser Arafat as an independent organization which oversees government actions in the area of citizens' rights. PICCR's goal is to ensure the compliance of the Palestinian Authority with international human rights standards and the principles of good government... ...In its first year of operation, 350 complaints were submitted, about one fourth of which resulted in intervention from PICCR to the ministry or agency involved, recommending a change of policy. Law : The Palestinian Society for the Protection of Human Rights & the Environment Adalah Addamir Prisoner ' Support Center The Alternative Information Center Al Liqa' Center for Religious and Heritage Studies in the Holy Land Coalition of Women for a Just Peace Democracy and Workers Rights Center Negev Coexistence Forum Friends of the Earth Middle East (FoEME) Gaza Community Mental Health Programme (GCMHP) Israel-Palestine Center for Research and Information (IPCRI) Ittijah: Union of Arab Community Based Associations The Mandela Institute for Prisoners Palestine Human Rights Information Center (PHRIC) Palestinian Center for Human Rights (PCHR) Palestinian Human Rights Monitoring Group (PHRMG) The Social Development Committee of Haifa Ta'ayush Arab Jewish partnership The Peoples' voice Here is a page of links to human rights and peace groups and organizations from around the world: Ariga : Human Rights and Peace Groups |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 23 Mar 03 - 02:57 PM "He knew that the British Government would not kill his followers if they offered no violence but sat passively." Ever heard of the Amritsar massacre? Gabdhi knew that the British were quite capable of killing unarmed opponents. He also knew that Inbdians were quite capable of turning to violent revolt. Once again, non-violence is not about not being on the receiving end of violence, it's about refusing to be on the delivering end. Nobody says that because soldiers get killed in a war that in itself means that the war was unsuccesful. Where does the idea come from that when non-violent activists get killed this must mean that non-violence doesn't have a chance of working? |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer From: InOBU Date: 23 Mar 03 - 12:33 AM Dear Troll: I have to say, thank God Gandhi was not at Bloody Sunday in Derry, but than again, he knew of Jillianwalla, so did he not fight for knowlege of the peaceful intent of the British. No. If you think the British love life more than the Germans or French, ask Eric Stolier, the husband of an old friend of my mother. Eric is the only survivor of the 800 + Rumanian Jewish refugees of the Sturma. Who killed the 800 + souls aboard that "ship"? The Rumanian nazi's who forced them to flee? The ship owners who put 800 people in a converted wooden schooner built in 1830, hanging together - just bearly by use of rusted metal plates? The Turks who, after the Struma drifed into their waters when the engine failed, starved them for months in the harbour than towed them to see among mines in a sinking crippled ship? The Russians who torpedoed the doomed ship? The British who refused to allow the ship into Palsitine, knowing by then the fate of Rumanian Jews? Well, I would not put much faith in the humanity of many nations today. Hope for a better world Larry |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer From: Troll Date: 22 Mar 03 - 11:09 PM As I have posted before, Gandhi was sucessful because he knew his enemy. He knew that the British Government would not kill his followers if they offered no violence but sat passively. Had he tried passive resistance against the Germans of the French, for instance, it would have been a different story and a very short one at that. troll |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 22 Mar 03 - 07:23 PM I take it, Push-me, that you haven't been reading the news too attentive recently - or maybe it's that the papers round your way are selective in what they print. There have been a number of cases where people have been killed in their homes by those bulldozers. It happened only the other day to a pregnant Palestinian woman. Death and destruction go hand in hand together. Here's a quote from an Amnesty International site about such an incident: "I looked and saw one of the large bulldozers coming from the west side bulldozing the al-Shu'bi family house and I saw the house tilt over. Without even thinking, I yelled to the soldier in the bulldozer, 'Let the residents leave the house.' At this point the soldier came out of the bulldozer, took his weapon and started to fire in my direction." Ten members of the Shu'bi family were buried under their house in Nablus for six days, only two survived. |
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Subject: Lyr Add: TREADMARKS (Susan Weber) From: Janice in NJ Date: 22 Mar 03 - 07:10 PM Let's take a moment to recall that a similar incident happened here in America. This is taken from the Southern Poverty Law Center's Civil Rights Memorial: REV. BRUCE KLUNDER was among civil rights activists who protested the building of a segregated school by placing their bodies in the way of construction equipment. Klunder was crushed to death when a bulldozer backed over him. APRIL 7, 1964 -- Cleveland, Ohio Here are the lyrics to Treadmarks, a song Susan Weber wrote about the incident 30 years later: His neighbors say he was a soft-spoken man, Fond of joke and quick to smile. He led his people to the promised land. Walked with them the extra mile. Standing at the pulpit on a warm spring day In Cleveland, nineteen sixty-four. Young Reverend Bruce said in his peaceful way: We can't sit quiet anymore. They want to build a school house for colored children. With hasty plans, no place for the kids to play. There is no kindness in the walls they're building. Just white folks keeping blacks away. (chorus) Tread marks deep across the pastor's shoulders. Head turned sideways, glasses bent. Tread marks making little children older. Who will hear their soul's lament? The people came to that construction site. A muddy field, a band of kin. Young Reverend Bruce had wrestled all through the night, To find the plan that he brought with him. Some folks lay down before that towering shovel. Bruce walked slowly to the rear. He put himself behind that huge bulldozer, Shouting warnings none could hear. Some say the minister had wildly rushed Beneath those mighty grinding treads. Others claim their friend was cruelly crushed. But all could see the man lay dead. (repeat chorus) (instrumental bridge) Children wonder, half a lifetime later, Why did he do that tragic act? Who can tell them, "Hold your shoulders straighter". Who's had tread marks across his back? (repeat chorus) Will someone write a song for Rachel Corrie 30 years from now? I dearly hope she is remembered, not just in a name, but in the message she brought to Israelis and Palestinians alike. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer From: GUEST,Push Me Pull You Date: 22 Mar 03 - 06:23 PM A bit of creep has got into this thread. But on the 20th McGrath wrote re: Rachel: "But at present it seems to me the main focus should be on what is happening at the present, and stopping the killing and destruction that is taking place which makes things worse, and leads to more killing and desruction. That was what Rachel was trying to do." Rachel was NOT trying to stop any killing. She was trying to stop a bulldozer. And unlike the Chinese student in front of the Chinese tank, which you were favorably comparing to the Israeli dozer operator, she was not standing where she could be seen. And if the opinions expressed in this forum are anything to go by, she didn't increase any peaceful understanding of the issues, but further polarized existing issues. Way to go, Rache. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 22 Mar 03 - 05:36 PM Non-violent resistance doesn't mean people don't get killed. It might even mean just as many people getting killed. Perhaps even more people. The point is that there is a hope that their deaths will achieve something that wouldn't have been achieved by violent resustance. Non-violent resistance isn't a soft option for achieving the goals you want without pain and risk and a very heavy cost, including deaths. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 22 Mar 03 - 04:53 PM You've both clicked over to the other thread and read InOBU's song about Rachel Corrie? Yes, and I had noticed that both Janice and Carol don't seem too far apart in their positions. Of course you need to be quite close to have a fist fight... |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer From: Jack the Sailor Date: 22 Mar 03 - 04:50 PM Janice in NJ, I cannot share your faith in Gandhiesque resistance. It was tried in China in 1989 and the subsequent reprisals were shown on television worldwide. The fighting between the Israeli's and the Palestinians are because two nations are tring to occupy the same land which is probably not large enough for either. If you put two tigeresses and their cubs on an Island only large enough to support one they will fight. Does it matter which one strikes first? I'm glad that you are on Carol's side. I shudder to think of where this debate might have gone if you weren't |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer From: CarolC Date: 22 Mar 03 - 04:35 PM Beats me, Janice. My view must have been clouded by your accusations that I should be compared to holocaust deniers and people of that sort. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer From: Janice in NJ Date: 22 Mar 03 - 04:23 PM In keeping with the spirit of nonviolence, sisterhood, and common courtesy, I'll let the "fruitcake" remark go unanswered. Anyway, as one who has participated in ILGO's attempts to march in the New York Saint Patrick's Day parades, I have been called a lot worse. But let me ask an important question: Does CarolC not understand that we are essentially on the same side? I truly believe that we both wish to see the Israelis evacuate the Arab territories they captured in 1967. I believe we both wish to see the establishment of an independent Palestinian Arab state. I believe we both wish to see this come about without further violence. And I believe we both wish to honor the bravery of Rachel Corrie, the young woman who lost her life because she chose to speak Truth to Power. Has anyone noticed? Or are y'all just enjoying a good old-fashioned cat fight? |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 22 Mar 03 - 04:17 PM Now that piece about the Haddassah massacre posted by Janice at 21 Mar 03 - 10:49 PM provides a clear example of the distortions that creep into reports on a cycle of violence. Read that report about the massacre of April 13th out of context and the fact that out follows hard upon the massacre of Deir Yassan on April 9th and was a reprisal form that isn't apparent. But a context is provided for a later atrocity - "In retaliation, 2 buildings housing British, Iraqis and local Arabs, are blown up on May 13th." And I'm not accusing Janice of distortion here. Nor am I suggesting that a counter-atrocity in reprisal for an atrocity (which is itself a counter-atrocity) is in any way ever justified. But inevitably any account of these kind of events risks distorting what is going on, by virtue of the date at which is starts and finishes, and the incidents which are included and not included. That is the process by which two sides in any intercommunal conflict build up completely different stories about what has happened over the years, and each presents a one-sided picture. Even when story is factually true, neither is complete. And half the truth is in effect a kind of lie. What Carol C seems to me to be doing is to try to ferret out and present the half of the truth that tends to be left out. But as I said up the thread, I think that making sense of the past and setting record straight is not the main priority, in face of some of the things that are being done right now, while the attention of the world is turned to other things. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer From: CarolC Date: 22 Mar 03 - 02:47 PM Janice (look, I'm talking to you!) the problem with your search parameters is the quotes. I copy/pasted your exact search parameters and you saw the results above. I have just now tried your key words without using the quotes and I did get several hits. Interestingly, one of them was this page, located about four hits down the page. This page is in the site I mentioned above (maintained by Palestinians) that I won't use in support of any of my posts unless I can find corroborating sources. I still don't understand why you maintain that I'm denying that it happened, and you're still a fruitcake. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer From: CarolC Date: 22 Mar 03 - 02:17 PM Janice, you're a fruitcake. I'm not going to talk to you any more, but I'll answer the questions you posed because they've been put out there, and they deserve an answer. Have a nice life. Forum Lurker, I think I phrased that badly. What I was trying to say, and I hope I do a better job of it this time, is that if I see something that could be construed as being critical of Israel, or even something that disputes the prevailing point of view about events in the region, and it comes from a Palestinian or Arab source (or any source that promotes hatred of any kind), I will not use it. What I will do is see if I can find it in some other kind of source. That might include a website maintained by Jews, or maybe a news source that is held to certain standards of journalistic accountability. There is a website that I would dearly love to provide links to because it contains a lot of quotes from early Zionist leaders. It is a site that is maintained by displaced Palestinians. I will not provide any links to that site unless I can find another corroborating source for those quotes in a site that is maintained by either Jews, an international human rights organization, or a university's historical department, or something along those lines. Conversely, if I see material that is critical of Palestinians, or that promotes an historical view that seems like it could be biased against Palestinians, and it is in a site that is maintained by a Jewish organization, I would like to find a source for it that maintained by someone who is not affiliated with any Jewish organizations. I would like to find it in a site that is maintained by Palestinians, or an international human rights organization, or something along those lines. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer From: Forum Lurker Date: 22 Mar 03 - 10:36 AM CarolC-you say that your sources come from both sides, because they belong to Jewish and Palestinian groups, not one or the other. Are all "Jewish" sources necessarily on the Israelie side of the conflict? Since they obviously aren't, how is a Jewish apologist site for Palestinian terrorism any different than a Palestinian site for the same purpose? |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer From: Janice in NJ Date: 22 Mar 03 - 10:18 AM People, do not be fooled by a disinformation campaign disguised as dialogue. Do not use the links above, but go to Google yourself and search for "Hadassah Hospital 1948" as I did. You will get more than ten pages of hits, many of them accounts from contemporary and credible sources. Even better, type in "Hadassah Hospital April 13, 1948" and follow the results carefully and with a critical eye. But then again, maybe Bloody Sunday was the result of IRA gunmen firing into the crowd of Civil Rights marchers? Maybe the Holocaust never happened, and those piles of bodies were the corpses of German soldiers killed on the Russian front? Maybe the Polish officers of the Katyn Forest were killed by the Nazis? And maybe the dead of Mount Scopus were Irgun terrorists on their way to massacre Arabs when they thought they came under fire, opened up with automatic weapons, and then mistakenly shot others in their same convoy? Far fetched? Of course, but we have all seen arguments like that. So let's look at what the report of the International Committee of the Red Cross on the Deir Yassin massacre had to say about the Hadassah Hospital attack, which it regarded as retaliation: A "take no prisoners" massacre by Arab guerrillas of a convoy of medical personnel to Hadassah Hospital on Mount Scopus, that included Jewish medical personnel, occurred on the 13th in Sheikh Jerakh near Mt. Scopus. Seventy-eight civilian medical personnel were killed, as well as five of the defenders accompanying the convoy. The British forces, who witnessed the entire incident, did almost nothing to stop it, apparently to allow retribution for Deir Yassin. An additional massacre of surrendered defenders at Kfar Etzion on May 14, 1948, has also been attributed to Deir Yassin. Yup, Deir Yassin happened. Bloody Sunday happened. The Holocaust happened. The Katyn Forest happened. And Hadassah Hospital happened. Never allow anyone to consign any of these down some Orwellian "memory hole." |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer From: CarolC Date: 22 Mar 03 - 12:23 AM Ha. Joke's on me. I left the colon in on that search. But then I used the same search without the colon at the end and this is what I got: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=%22Hadassah+Hospital+1948%22&btnG=Google+Search |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer From: CarolC Date: 22 Mar 03 - 12:09 AM Ok. I tried "Hadassah Hospital 1948". This is what I got. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=%22Hadassah+Hospital+1948%22%3A&btnG=Google+Search But I'm going to continue to see what I can find. I don't like to rely on information that only comes from organizations representing one side of the debate. If you look at the "about us" links in most of the sites I use quotes from, you'll see that most of them are websites that belong to Jewish organizations. I never use a quote that can only be found on a Palestinian or Arab website, unless it's a direct quote from an historic figure, and even then, I try to find the quote elsewhere before I use it. And I prefer not to blindly accept information that can only be found on websites that belong to Jewish organizations. Propaganda is a common thing on both sides of this debate. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer From: CarolC Date: 21 Mar 03 - 11:37 PM Janice, did you completely miss my post of Date: 21 Mar 03 - 02:22 PM? In it I included a lot of information about violence committed by Arabs agains Jews. Nowhere did I deny that the attack on the hospital convoy happened. I only said that I didn't find anything about it in my searches, which is entirely true. A lot of what I find in searches is just plain blind luck. I'm no genius at doing searches. Sometimes I don't find the right combination of key words. In this case I didn't think to include the name of the hospital in the search. There is no need for you to get nasty. And you don't serve any good purpose by turning this into a mudslinging match. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer From: Janice in NJ Date: 21 Mar 03 - 10:49 PM First of all, I have followed the links CarolC provided. Some are useful, others not so, but I have read them all. What I cannot believe is that CarolC could find nothing about the Hadassah Hospital massacre. That almost puts her in the same league as the Holocaust deniers, but I'll give her the benefit of the doubt and just ask her to try harder. For example, the following hit came from a Google search for "Hadassah Hospital 1948": April 13, 1948 – Attack on Hadassah Convoy to Mount Scopus After months of sporadic attacks on traffic to Hadassah Hospital on Mount Scopus, local Arabs set mines in the road in the Sheik Jarrah area to block a convoy of 10 vehicles (trucks, buses and ambulances) carrying supplies, nurses, doctors, scientists, and patients. In the attack, 78 are killed, their bodies mutilated, and tens of other are wounded. British soldiers delay intervention for 6 hours while the attack and killing continue. The local Arab Higher Committee praises the attack, declaring that if the British had not interfered, all the Jews would have been killed. Days later, on April 26th, Sheik Jarrah is captured by Jewish forces. British soldiers force a Jewish retreat because the May 14th evacuation route from Jerusalem is to be through this area. Arab forces are allowed to reenter. In retaliation, 2 buildings housing British, Iraqis and local Arabs, are blown up on May 13th. From the Jerusalem archives website. Or else, go to the Hadassah website. You may not like to hear the truth -- anymore than the Israelis and their apologists here in America like to hear the truth about the present struggle -- but please don't pretend that what did happen didn't happen. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer From: CarolC Date: 21 Mar 03 - 05:43 PM CarolC-have you encountered any Israeli leaders whose role was similar to Al-Husseini's? No. I haven't run across any myself. I am not aware of any of the leaders of the Zionist movement or any Israeli leaders who were appointed by some outside political entity as al Husseini was by the British. Did the Israelis have a say in whether Irgun massacred Arabs? Well, I think it would be fair to say that the leaders of Israel had some say in what the Irgun did, being the architects of the agenda that the Irgun were fighting for, even though officially they try to maintain an appearance of separation. Whereas, it was the British who put al Husseini in power against the wishes of the moderate Arab majority, and with an agenda that was not agreed to by the majority of the Arabs in the area, or even by the Arab leaders who preceded Britain's appointment of al Husseini to be their new leader. So, should all of the European Jewish settlers be held responsible for what the Irgun did? No, definitely not. Should the Israeli (Zionist) leadership of that time be held responsible for the expulsion and terrorization of the Palestinians? Absolutely. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer From: Forum Lurker Date: 21 Mar 03 - 05:27 PM CarolC-have you encountered any Israeli leaders whose role was similar to Al-Husseini's? You seem to be characterizing the actions of the Israelis as fairly universal, while stating that the Palestinians were entirely innocent. Did the Israelis have a say in whether Irgun massacred Arabs? |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer From: CarolC Date: 21 Mar 03 - 02:40 PM Now, when I saw that al-Husseini was installed in the British created postion of Grand Mufti, against the wishes of the Arabs of the region, and when I saw what a nasty character he was and how he clearly didn't represent the Palestinians, seeing as how he was just as happy to kill Arabs as Jews, I found myself wondering why the British created that position and installed him in it. I need to do some more research on it, but I find myself thinking that the Palestinians were the scapegoats in a battle between the British and the European Jewish settlers. The Palestinians had no say in the appointment of al-Husseini. They didn't want him. If they tried to resist him, they were killed. And now they are being blamed for the atrocities committed by him. So, Janice in NJ, my answer to your question of who started the aggression in Israel/Palestine is most certainly not the Palestinians. To hold "the Palestinians" responsible for the atrocities committed by this man whom they didn't want, didn't appoint, and who victimized them along with Jews, would be as wrong as holding all Jews responsible for the actions of Ariel Sharon. And that would be very wrong indeed. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer From: CarolC Date: 21 Mar 03 - 02:22 PM Some information on violence committed by Arabs against Jews from this site: http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_mandate_grand_mufti.php The first Palestine High Commissioner. Sir Herbert Samuel arrived in Palestine on July 1, 1920. He was a weak administrator who was too ready to compromise and appease the extremist, nationalistic Arab minority led by Haj Amin al-Husseini. When the existing Arab Mufti of Jerusalem (religious leader) died in 1921, Samuels was influenced by anti-Zionist British officials on his staff. He pardoned al-Husseini and, in January 1922, appointed him as the new Mufti, and even invented a new title of Grand Mufti. He was simultaneously made President of a newly created Supreme Muslim Council. Al-Husseini thereby became the religious and political leader of the Arabs. The appointment of the young al-Husseini as Mufti was a seminal event. Prior to his rise to power, there were active Arab factions supporting cooperative development of Palestine involving Arabs and Jews. But al-Husseini would have none of that; he was devoted to driving Jews out of Palestine, without compromise, even if it set back the Arabs 1000 years. William Ziff, in his book "The Rape of Palestine," summarizes: Implicated in the [1920] disturbances was a political adventurer named Haj Amin al Husseini. Haj Amin, was sentenced by a British court to fifteen years hard labor. Conveniently allowed to escape by the police, he was a fugitive in Syria. Shortly after, the British then allowed him to return to Palestine where, despite the opposition of the muslim High Council who regarded him as a hoodlum, Haj Amin was appointed by the British High Commissioner as Grand Mufti of Jerusalem for life. [P. 22] Al-Husseini represented newly emerging proponents of militant, Palestinian Arab nationalism, a previously unknown concept. Once he was in power, he began a campaign of terror and intimidation against anyone opposed to his rule and policies. He killed Jews at every opportunity, but also eliminated Arabs who did not support his campaign of violence. Husseini was not willing to negotiate or make any kind of compromise for the sake of peace. In 1929, major Arab riots were instigated against the Jews of Palestine In April, 1936 six prominent Arab leaders formed the Arab Higher Committee, with the Grand Mufti Haj Amin al-Husseini as head of the organization, joining forces to protest British support of Zionist progress in Palestine. In the same month, riots broke out in Jaffa commencing a three-year period of violence and civil strife in Palestine that is known as the Arab Revolt Using the turmoil of the Arab Revolt as cover, al-Husseini consolidated his control over the Palestinian Arabs with a campaign of murder against Jews and non-compliant Arabs, the recruitment of armed militias, and the raising of funds from around the Muslim world using anti-Jewish propaganda. In 1937 the Grand Mufti expressed his solidarity with Germany, asking the Nazi Third Reich to oppose establishment of a Jewish state, stop Jewish immigration to Palestine, and provide arms to the Arab population. Following an assassination attempt on the British Inspector-General of the Palestine Police Force and the murder by Arab extremists of Jews and moderate Arabs, the Arab Higher Committee was declared illegal by the British. The Grand Mufti lost his office of President of the Supreme muslim Council, his membership on the Waqf committee, and was forced into exile in Syria in 1937. The British deported the Arab mayor of Jerusalem along with other members of the Arab Higher Committee. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer From: CarolC Date: 21 Mar 03 - 02:09 PM Terrorism Statistics for 1940 - 1949 Centre for Defence and International Security Studies The page in the first link contains reports of terrorist activity around the world from 1945 to 1949. I don't know how complete this list is (I'm still searching for information on that), but of the terrorist acts listed, I have included only those committed by Jewish terrorists and Arab terrorists. This site lists 10 terrorist acts committed by Jewish terrorists in this time period, killing 409 people (at least 254 of them women and children, and five of those killed were Jewish), and wounding 121. It lists one terrorist act committed by Arabs during this time period, killing 13 (presumably Jewish) Terrorism from 1940 to 1949: 1945 October 31 Jewish terrorist offensive against British rule in Palestine begins, with a wave of bomb attacks on police vehicles, railway sites and Haifa oil refinery. One policeman, one soldier and two railway workers killed. November 27 Eight British soldiers killed in bomb attack on police station Jerusalem, Palestine, in Jewish Irgun terrorist attack 1946 July 22 Ninety people killed and forty five wounded after Jewish terrorists blow up the King David Hotel in Jerusalem, Palestine, which was home to British government and military offices. The terrorists held workers at pistol point while they planted the explosives in the basement of the hotel. October 31 British embassy in Rome, Italy, wrecked by two bombs in suit cases left by Jewish Irgun terrorists. No casualties. 1947 July 12 Jewish Irgun terrorists kidnap and then hang two British Army sergeants. The terrorists were trying to secure the release of three Irgun members who had been sentenced to death by the British authorities in Palestine. September 29 Jewish Irgun terrorists bomb police station in Haifa, Palestine, killing four British and four Arab policemen, as well as two Arab civilians. Forty six people injured. December 12 Twenty Arabs, five Jews and two British soldiers killed and thirty wounded in Jewish terrorist bomb attacks on buses in Haifa and Ramleh, Palestine. British mandate to rule Palestine ends on 15 May 1948; state of Israel established. December 29 Jewish Irgun terrorists throw grenades from passing taxi into café near the Damascus gate, Jerusalem, Palestine, killing eleven Arabs and two British policemen. 1948 (This is the year Ghandi was killed.) March 11 Headquarters of the Jewish Agency, Jerusalem, Palestine, destroyed by Arab car bomb killing thirteen and injuring eighty four. April 9 Jewish Irgun terrorist group attacks Deir Yassim, Palestine, murdering two hundred and fifty four Arab women and children captured in the remains of the village. September 17 United Nations mediator in Palestine, Swedish Count Folke Bernadotte, murdered by Jewish Stern gang extremist in Jerusalem, Palestine, who fired at point blank range through window of his official car. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer From: CarolC Date: 21 Mar 03 - 01:51 PM Here's the first part of my answer to question number 2: Among the most atrocious of these incidents was the April 1948 massacre, in which Palestinian Arabs wiped out a convoy of 78 doctors, nurses, and medical students who were making their way to Hadassah Hospital on Mount Scopus in Jerusalem. I did several Google searches, but I could find no mention of "the April 1948 massacre, in which Palestinian Arabs wiped out a convoy of 78 doctors, nurses, and medical students". I did turn up a lot of other interesting stuff, however. I found this one particularly interesting: Letter from Ardeshir Mehta to Rabbi Michael Lerner of Tikkun magazine Norman Finkelstein (see his bio at http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/id17.htm), in Image and Reality of the Israel-Palestine Conflict, writes much more graphically: "By 1948, the Jew was not only able to 'defend himself' but to commit massive atrocities as well. Indeed, according to the former director of the Israeli army archives, 'in almost every village occupied by us during the War of Independence, acts were committed which are defined as war crimes, such as murders, massacres, and rapes' [...] Uri Milstein, the authoritative Israeli military historian of the 1948 war, goes one step further, maintaining that 'every skirmish ended in a massacre of Arabs.'" Note that these are all Jewish, and indeed for the most part Israeli, accounts of what happened, so they cannot be dismissed as "Arab propaganda". This violent expulsion and expropriation of their property, the event called by Palestinians al-Nakba or "the Disaster" (with a Capital D, as it were), is the very origin of the continuing violence in the Holy Land. This is precisely what before 1948 they feared would happen. As Benny Morris writes, "[Arab opposition to Zionism stemmed from] fear of territorial displacement and dispossession". And this is why they resisted the expropriation of their property with armed force in 1948. This fact is clearly demonstrated by the fact that on March 22, 1945 the Arab states of that time issued the "Alexandria Protocol", which stated: "The rights of the Arabs [of Palestine] cannot be touched with prejudice to peace and stability in the Arab world. [... the Arab states were] second to none in regretting the woes which have been inflicted on the Jews of Europe. [...] But [...] there can be no greater injustice and aggression than solving the problem of Europe Jews by [...] inflicting injustice on the Palestine Arabs." (From Righteous Victims by Benny Morris, p. 172.) |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer From: InOBU Date: 21 Mar 03 - 01:42 PM Dear folks... there are a few songs about Rachel above... drop in on the post there. Cheers Larry |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer From: CarolC Date: 21 Mar 03 - 12:08 PM Here's some information about the Israelis' motivations for their actions during the Nakba (from the same page): Ethnic cleansing of the Arab population of Palestine "Joseph Weitz was the director of the Jewish National Land Fund...On December 19, 1940, he wrote: 'It must be clear that there is no room for both peoples in this country...The Zionist enterprise so far...has been fine and good in its own time, and could do with 'land buying' - but this will not bring about the State of Israel; that must come all at once, in the manner of a Salvation (this is the secret of the Messianic idea); and there is no way besides transferring the Arabs from here to the neighboring countries, to transfer them all; except maybe for Bethlehem, Nazareth and Old Jerusalem, we must not leave a single village, not a single tribe'...There were literally hundreds of such statements made by Zionists." Edward Said, "The Question of Palestine." Ethnic cleansing - continued "Following the outbreak of 1936, no mainstream (Zionist) leader was able to conceive of future coexistence without a clear physical separation between the two peoples - achievable only by transfer and expulsion. Publicly they all continued to speak of coexistence and to attribute the violence to a small minority of zealots and agitators. But this was merely a public pose..Ben Gurion summed up: 'With compulsory transfer we (would) have a vast area (for settlement)...I support compulsory transfer. I don't see anything immoral in it,'" Israel historian, Benny Morris, "Righteous Victims." Ethnic cleansing - continued "Ben-Gurion clearly wanted as few Arabs as possible to remain in the Jewish state. He hoped to see them flee. He said as much to his colleagues and aides in meetings in August, September and October [1948]. But no [general] expulsion policy was ever enunciated and Ben-Gurion always refrained from issuing clear or written expulsion orders; he preferred that his generals 'understand' what he wanted done. He wished to avoid going down in history as the 'great expeller' and he did not want the Israeli government to be implicated in a morally questionable policy...But while there was no 'expulsion policy', the July and October [1948] offensives were characterized by far more expulsions and, indeed, brutality towards Arab civilians than the first half of the war." Benny Morris, "The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947-1949" I've decided to answer your questions one at a time. I'll be starting with #2 first. I'll be back in a little while with that |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer From: CarolC Date: 21 Mar 03 - 12:00 PM The irony is that the Catastrophe, including the Israeli annexation of certain lands allocated to the Arab State of Palestine under the 1947 UN Partition Plan, came about in great part because the combined armies of Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, and the Trans-Jordan invaded Israel on its first day of existence. This is simply not true. It's one of the many myths about Israel that have been foating around for a long time to the great harm of the Palestinian people. Since you don't seem to be reading my links, I'll provide the relevent text here: Statehood and Expulsion What was the Arab reaction to the announcement of the creation of the state of Israel? "The armies of the Arab states entered the war immediately after the State of Israel was founded in May. Fighting continued, almost all of it within the territory assigned to the Palestinian state...About 700,000 Palestinians fled or were expelled in the 1948 conflict." Noam Chomsky, "The Fateful Triangle." Was the part of Palestine assigned to a Jewish state in mortal danger from the Arab armies? "The Arab League hastily called for its member countries to send regular army troops into Palestine. They were ordered to secure only the sections of Palestine given to the Arabs under the partition plan. But these regular armies were ill equipped and lacked any central command to coordinate their efforts...[Jordan's King Abdullah] promised [the Israelis and the British] that his troops, the Arab Legion, the only real fighting force among the Arab armies, would avoid fighting with Jewish settlements...Yet Western historians record this as the moment when the young state of Israel fought off "the overwhelming hordes' of five Arab countries. In reality, the Israeli offensive against the Palestinians intensified." "Our Roots Are Still Alive," by the Peoples Press Palestine Book Project. |
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