Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer

Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 01:42 PM

Forum Lurker,

When Jordan controlled East Jerusalem from 1948-1967, Jews were denied access to their holy sites, including the Western Wall, the holiest site in Judaism. However, since the city was unified in 1967, both Arabs and Israelis, Moslems and Jews (not to mention Christians), have had full access to their holy sites in Jerusalem. Control of the Moslem holy sites, BTW, has continued to be in the hands of the Moslems.

Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 01:45 PM

It doesn't take long for people to turn their back from the dead person does it?

Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 02:23 PM

GUEST of 1:42 I know that perfectly well, but don't see the relevance.

McGrath- Thread creep happens, evein in obits.

Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: Troll
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 03:01 PM

Lurker, it would be open to EVERYONE. That's what being an international city means.
UN forces could enforce the division against the IDF with little or no problem if the US and, say, China made up the UN forces.
I don't believe that there would be any problems once the division was in place.
The problem would be in getting the politicians in this country to grow enough backbone to do the job. Frankly,I don't think that will EVER happen.

troll

Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 03:29 PM

Well, troll and Forum Lurker, all of those fine distinctions may just end up being moot points anyway. If the Israeli government gets its way, all of the Palestinians will probably be forcibly expelled from Israel/Palestine eventually anyway:

Forced Removal

Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 03:46 PM

If they continue to blow themselves and others up with home made bombs maybe they should be sent away. What would you do if it started happening in the US and Canada? Get a bumper sticker that says, "Hug a bomber today."

Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: Ireland
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 03:47 PM

The one thing I admire about this perfect example of a human being was the fact that she was trying to change things, save lives without taking another persons life to do it.

Rachel Corrie gave all she had and it is our short comings if we do not realise or respect that.

It is a sad fact but in losing her life it has highlighted the plight of the situation. I think we take the latest reports of Israeli intrusions with the same attitude people looked at the N.I. situation in the end, a take no notice they are always at it attitude. Sorry if I have generalised too much.

McG of H was right in starting this thread, for what it is worth I agree with what he said.

Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 03:59 PM

If they continue to blow themselves and others up with home made bombs maybe they should be sent away.

They are blowing themselves up in response to the very kinds of things mentioned in the last link I posted. There was a time when there weren't any suicide bombers in Israel/Palestine. But the tighter the Israeli government squeezes the Palestinians, the more they become radicalized and then you end up with problems like suicide bombers.

What would you do if it started happening in the US and Canada? Get a bumper sticker that says, "Hug a bomber today

If my government was creating the problem by treating people who resort to these kinds of tactice in the way the Israeli government is treating the Palestinians, I would protest against my government.

Oh, yeah, I forgot. I've already done that.

Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 04:18 PM

Here's what Rachel had to say in one of those emails, trying to understand where the violence comes from:

If any of us had our lives and welfare completely strangled, lived with children in a shrinking place where we knew, because of previous experience, that soldiers and tanks and bulldozers could come for us at any moment and destroy all the greenhouses that we had been cultivating for however long, and did this while some of us were beaten and held captive with 149 other people for several hours - do you think we might try to use somewhat violent means to protect whatever fragments remained?

I think about this especially when I see orchards and greenhouses and fruit trees destroyed - just years of care and cultivation. I think about you and how long it takes to make things grow and what a labour of love it is.

Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: InOBU
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 05:50 PM

In that same vien, McGrath, I think of how long it takes to raise a young woman with a social conscience, how long it takes to raise a nation from the ashes of the holocaust and what a great shame it is that both are thrown away in the same action...
Peace and sanity
Larry

Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 06:23 PM

I agree InOBU - only who defines the social conscience as right or wrong? I would not say that the driver of the bulldozer had any less a social conscience than she did. Both were doing what they believed to be right - whatever the hell right is.

Well CarolC you say that violence perpetuates violence. So they blow themselves up and Israel responds. Who are you to say who or what is right? Maybe they need to quit blowing themselves up first?

Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 06:54 PM

No, GUEST. You have it backwards. It is not Israel that responds. Israel is the aggressor, and the Palestinians respond to that agression. When Israel stops its acts of aggression against the Palestinians, there will be peace in Israel and Palestine.

Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 06:58 PM

(that is, of course, unless the Israeli government succeeds in its program of ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians from Israel/Palestine)

Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 07:13 PM

Once you get into a cycle of violence it becomes almost arbitrary to identify who started it. Unless of course we point to the real source of it - the Jew haters in Europe over the ages, and more especially the architects of the Jewish Holocaust.

What is more important is to recognise who it is who benefits from the continued violence and counter-violence, and who suffers most from it.

Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: GUEST,Guest, Push Me Pull You
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 07:31 PM

Maybe the point you are tripping over without acknowldging it, McGrath and Carol, is that we are dealing with continual stimulous - response, and either side can go back farther and farther, biblically far in this sad case. The letters you are quoting are from one of those sides, that Ms. Corrie happened to pick. It really could have been the other side, like some kid from the U.S. who got blown up in a university cafeteria. The ending for Ms. Corrie was likewise tragic, but to me doesn't constitute a 'peaceful' action. More like non-violent resistance. Maybe she wasn't aware that the Palestinian authority has likewise bulldozed houses, has executed numerous alleged 'informers' including women. Maybe she was as well-informed as you say, in which case she chose a side, apparently a side you agree with, but by no means fair nor unbiased. Her letters and the photographs of her indicate profound bias.

Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 07:53 PM

There are a lot of things the Israeli government does to the Palestinians that many or maybe even most people don't know about, GUEST, Push Me Pull You. For instance, do you know what the Israeli government is doing to the Palestinians in the West Bank with regard to access to water?

The Israeli government is and has been instituting a systematic and relentless oppression of the Palestinian people in order to get them off of what little land they have left. This will not stop unless people wake up to what is happening and say "no" to the Israeli government, or until the Israeli government succeds in it's ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians.

And heaven help Israel, the US, Americans, and Jews around the world if Israel succeeds in the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians from Israel/Palestine.

Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 09:19 PM

CarolC keeps going on and on and on and on and on about how Israel is "ethnic cleansing" the Palestinians. She has repeated her blood libel so many times that there are probably some people stupid enough to believe her lies.

And what is her source? She provides links to a disreputable web site that no one in the world takes seriously. Anyone can put up a website. It doesn't mean diddly. I could create a site that says Jack The Sailor is really a woman and that she and CarolC are lesbians. That statement has about as much credibility as anything CarolC has to say.

In 2002, when one Isaeli politician suggested removing Palestinians, he was shot down by ebery other politician in Israel. Yet CarolC keeps trying to present this as official Isreali policy. It's as if David Duke of the KKK made a statement about African Americans and then someone was stupid enough to then insist that because David Duke said it, it is official American policy. What a crock of shit.

Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 09:19 PM

Rachel Corrie was foolhardy enough to believe she could use her nonviolence in face of a merciless and remorseless oppressor. But maybe that is just the kind of foolhardiness this moment in history demands. Fifty-five years of armed struggle have brought the Palestinian Arabs not one day closer to independence. If anything, their lot is more wretched than ever. But imagine for a moment they had engaged instead in a disciplined Gandhian campaign of noncooperation, boycotts, civil disobedience, and collective self-help. Instead of bulldozers and tanks, Arab Palestine would now be facing the mundane tasks of statehood: water rights and foreign trade and whose mug to put on their currency. Call it, if you will, a failure of leadership.

Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 09:54 PM

In answer to Beccy at 10:02, you need to read this thread

thread.cfm?threadid=51762

to know why Larry is refered to as a "a lying PR flak for a vicious child beater."

Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 10:08 PM

Hey, irregardless of which side has the greatest tools for ddestruction of life in their arsinal, the cyle of violence between Isaeal and the Palestine and vice versa is unacceptable. Sure, one can look at Israel as the "bullies" and leave it right there. But it is a conflict, a war, and both sides need to pull back and stop attacking each other with the weapons that are at their disposal.

But this won't happen until the US tells both sides in unmistakenable terms that this behavior is totatlly unacceptable. The US can do this and must do this. It should tell Sharon that there will be no more money. They should tell Arafat to get off his butt and tell Hamas to chill!

Yep, until the US decides to quit cow-tieing and exert a leadership role, there will be more and more of what we have seen. One Israeli killed and 10 Palestinians! The ratios won't change. The cyle won't change.

In these times when the US has a wonderful opportuintiy to stand up for peace, it seems more like the deer in the headlights. I blame this more on Bush, thought Clinton didn't talk tought either. Hey, it's Bush's watch now!

Bobert

Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 10:13 PM

My links on this thread are from the Gush Shalom website. Gush Shalom is an Israeli human rights organization. Here is their home page:

Gush Shalom

And the page with information about their organization:

Introduction to Gush Shalom

Here is the home page for Not In My Name, a Jewish human rights organization based here in the US.

Not In My Name

Here is a letter to the Israeli government that is posted to the NIMH site on the subject of Palestinian expulsion. Our guest is using the tactic of attacking the credibility of the messenger because he/she can't dispute the factuality of what I have said:

American Academics Join Israeli Colleagues In Warning Against Ethnic Cleansing

"We, American academics and intellectuals, applaud our courageous Israeli colleagues for their recent letter warning of the possibility of ethnic cleansing in Israel and the Occupied Territories. The 187 Israeli signatories express concern that the "fog of war" [against Iraq] "could be exploited by the Israeli government to commit further crimes against the Palestinian people, up to full- fledged ethnic cleansing."

The Israeli professors point out that: "The Israeli ruling coalition includes parties that promote 'transfer' of the Palestinian population as a solution to what they call 'the demographic problem'. Politicians are regularly quoted in the media as suggesting forcible expulsion, most recently MKs [members of the Israeli parliament] Michael Kleiner and Benny Elon, as reported on Yediot Ahronot website on September 19, 2002. In a recent interview in Israeli daily Ha'aretz, Chief of Staff Moshe Ya'alon described the Palestinians as a 'cancerous manifestation' and equated the military actions in the Occupied Territories with 'chemotherapy', suggesting that more radical 'treatment' may be necessary. Prime Minister Sharon has backed this 'assessment of reality'. Escalating racist demagoguery concerning the Palestinian citizens of Israel may indicate the scope of the crimes that are possibly being contemplated."

Benjamin Netanyahu, the newly appointed Israeli foreign minister, previously advocated expelling Palestinians while the world was distracted with events at Tiananmen Square.

We join with our Israeli colleagues in calling for vigilance as events unfold in Israel and the Occupied Territories. With an average of more than $10 million dollars per day of American tax dollars going to Israel, we believe Americans cannot remain silent while crimes as abhorrent as ethnic cleansing are being openly advocated.

We urge our government to communicate clearly to the government of Israel that the expulsion of people according to race, religion or nationality would constitute crimes against humanity and will not be tolerated."

Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 10:22 PM

For more information, see this thread. It'll help you understand, Janice from NJ, why what you are suggesting would never have worked:

Hypocrisy Rules - OK?

Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: InOBU
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 10:47 PM

My dear misinformed anonimous Guest who wrote..."Larry is refered to as a "a lying PR flak for a vicious child beater." As a matter of fact, Ms. Toogood's case has been settled to the satifaction of all, she is no longer facing two 5 year jail terms. As to refering to me as a liar, I not only stand by all I say but I sign my name to that which I say, unlike your own dear cowardly self.
Larry

Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 07:44 AM

Nothing "foolhardy" about non-violent resistance. People who engage in it know that they risk death, just as anyone who engages in resistance. The difference is that they do not risk killing others and reinforcing the cycle of violence.

Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 09:55 AM

Bobert - "Hey, irregardless of which side has the greatest tools for ddestruction of life in their arsinal, the cyle of violence between Isaeal and the Palestine and vice versa is unacceptable. Sure, one can look at Israel as the "bullies" and leave it right there. But it is a conflict, a war, and both sides need to pull back and stop attacking each other with the weapons that are at their disposal.

But this won't happen until the US tells both sides in unmistakenable terms that this behavior is totatlly unacceptable. The US can do this and must do this. It should tell Sharon that there will be no more money. They should tell Arafat to get off his butt and tell Hamas to chill!"

Well we are doing that in Iraq and you say we are being jerks and abusing our power - now it's OK? And we are giving Iraq and the surrounding areas the message that if they continue to do the same old we're going to come in and change things.

I'm sure Hamas will just say "Right USA - we'll stop - yep uh huh - "

How about you and the rest of the Shields of the world do what Ghandi did - have all of you just walk up to every military item in the arsenal and after a few hundred thousand of you are dead the world will go _ Ohhhhhh let's stop - -

Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: robomatic
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 09:26 PM

I was taught to spell his name 'Gandhi'.

I think the comment about massive Palestinian non-violent resistance was telling. Unfortunately it has not been tried. It has been said "The Palestinians have never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity."

The failure of the Arab states surrounding Israel to take on the re-settlement of these miserable people, unlike Israel's taking on the resettlement of Jews from Arab lands, has led to an incredibly one-sided and (one would think) indefensible position designed to lead to an Israeli state that will have indefensible borders and no control over its own waterways and water table.

Not for nothing has it been observed that Israel only has to lose once. To this date the Arab countries have encouraged Palestinians to take this approach. The result has been increased misery to both the Israeli and Palestinian peoples.

And in spite of this, there are Israeli parties, organizations, and websites which are taking on Palestinian advocacy. I am not aware of a similar openness to criticism and democratic ideals on the Palestinian side. Reminds me of the difference between an open society and a totalitarian one. The open society is full of people critiquing it and the other one is bleating endlessly how it is the only way, has the only right, is purely good and all else is evil. It mistakes intransigency for strength, flexibility for weakness, and brings down ever more sorrow on its own people and causes.

Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 09:50 PM

troll:

I agree whole heartedly.

Hey, will someone get the smelling salts! Poor troll done passed out!

Yeah, I'd love to see the UN in Jerusalem. And I'd love to see Israel pull back the recent settlements. And, believe it or not, I have said the same thing about a DMZ. Get these folks the heck *away* from one another for now and maybe for a long time. Let them live their lives without the constant fear of one another.

Now, with that settled, howz about a portion of what the US routinely sends to Israel each year aid in its defense to go toward creating investment seed money for the Palestinians? Deal?

Danged! Me and troll on the same page?

There must be some catch...

Bobert

Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: Troll
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 10:04 PM

Bobert, if you're waiting for me, you're backing up. I made this suggestion several years ago. So rather than belabor the point, I'll just say that there may be hope for you yet. After all, if you can accept one conservatives idea, there are probably others that make sense too.

troll

Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 10:22 PM

troll:

Don't get too carried away, but we're like mind on this one. I don't see this as too conservastive at all unless this is one of those situations where the left and right are so far out that they touch.

But this works fir me just fine and I don't see any downside to it.

How about a few bucks from Israel's aid package to go toward building a Palestianian economy?

Can we agree on that?

Bobert

p.s. Well I reckon that even knotheads like you, T. and Dougie gotta be right (ahh, corrct) occasionally, but don't go get no big head over it!

Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 10:48 PM

I think the comment about massive Palestinian non-violent resistance was telling. Unfortunately it has not been tried. It has been said "The Palestinians have never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity.

Talk about blood libels. This is simply not true. Here are two quotes from Israeli government leaders that directly contradict that particular "Big Lie"...

"We have a skeleton, we didn't complete the house. The Oslo agreement has had a rather short occasion to implement itself, and that was between 1993 and 1996. The Oslo agreement was stopped in 1996 when the government in Israel was changed and Mr. Netanyahu became the Prime Minister. I think that the foundations and the structure of Oslo are still the best ones available. And once we shall have an opportunity, we shall complete the building that may withstand the winds of the outside world, and the skepticism of the people."

--Shimon Peres, September 24, 2001

According to Yitzhak Rabin, Arafat and the PLO were willing to work with him in stopping terrorism. (This was during the time when the Palestinians still had hope because they thought the Oslo agreement would be implemented)...

"In the last two years, not one Israeli has been killed by PLO terrorism," Rabin said. The real threat, he said, does not come from Israel's old adversaries - he pointedly included Syrian President Hafez al-Assad in the faded threat category - but from "the ugly wave of" Iranian-supported Islamic fundamentalism.

--Yitzhak Rabin

Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: Troll
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 10:58 PM

The money thing works for me. If there is a working peace, they won't have to spend so much on defense. Glad to see you're coming around.
Even a blind pig will find an acorn if he roots long enough.
Keep rootin'.

troll

Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 11:09 PM

CarolC-The Palestinians do still continue terrorist attacks, though. They ought to realize that continued attacks by Palestinians are the only thing that makes people support Sharon's position, and that ceasing the attacks would benefit everyone. Recall also that when Rabin said that PLO violence had stopped, he was referring only to the PLO itself, not any Palestinian terrorist groups, and that Hamas has become much more powerful since Rabin's assassination. The Palestinians are not guiltless in the cycle of bloodshed. Also, where did you pull blood libels from and why do you use the phrase in such a poor fashion?

Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 11:43 PM

Forum Lurker, this thread demonstrates that the only way a death that happens in the occupied territories to a non-Israeli gets any attention or sympathy, is if it happens to someone who is not a Palestinian. The ratio of deaths of Palestinians as compared to Israelis is staggering.

How do you think the Palestinians can get any kind of balanced reporting or attention to their plight when people like you and I don't ever hear about the five or more Palestinians who are killed for every Israeli who is killed in Israel/Palestine? If they try to use passive resistance, you will simply never hear about it. They did try passive resistance in some peaceful protests, and many of them were killed for it even though they were not armed, or even throwing stones. And on at least one occassion, this happened to Israeli citizens who were of Palestinian ancestry, inside Israel, and not the occupied territories. Did you ever hear about that?

I leave you with the words of these American Jews:

Who Will Speak Out?

Alone Among My Peers at My Yeshiva University High School Reunion

On The Rabbis and the Future of Jewish Life

Living with the Holocaust: The Journey of a Child of Holocaust Survivors

Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 12:01 AM

I just saw your question about blood libels. I was accused of blood libel earlier in this thread.

Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 12:11 AM

I hear about Palestinians killed on a more regular basis than Israelis, and each Palestinian death is given more space in the paper than the Israeli deaths. Your media of choice apparently doesn't report it as heavily as mine. Passive resistance can't do any worse than violent resistance, since all that terrorist attacks do is give the IDF more reason and better excuse for the use of force.

Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 12:48 AM

I hear about Palestinians killed on a more regular basis than Israelis, and each Palestinian death is given more space in the paper than the Israeli deaths.

The fact is that Palestinians are killed on a more regular basis than Israelis. But I almost never see or hear a name or a life story along with the death statistics. Just X number of Palestinians were killed in a retaliatory action by Israel. Whenever Israelis get killed I often hear the names of the ones killed, their age, what they did for a living, how many family members are left to mourn them. If you hear the same kinds of things on a regular basis about the Palestinians who are killed, please tell me what your news source is.

As I said before, when Palestinians have tried passive resistance in the past, they just got butchered for it, and few people outside of Israel and Palestine ever heard about it. Did you ever hear about those peaceful protests, and the deaths of the people who participated in them?

I don't advocate the killing of Israelis by Palestinians any more than I would advocate the killing of Palestinians by Israelis. But I reiterate the fact that when Israel gives the Palestians hope for a better future, the numbers of violent incidents against Israelis goes down. When the Israeli government increases its oppression of the Palestinians, or reneges on its agreements with them, the amount of violence against Israelis increases. So clearly Sharon's policies (and Netanyahu's policies before him), are not producing the effect he says they're meant to produce. They are producing the opposite effect.

Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 04:06 AM

The term "blood libel" gets thrown around very loosely. Historically it means the lie about Jews being supposed to kill Christian Childrento use the blood as part of a secret Passovr ritual - a version of it is incorporated in the ballad Little Sir Hugh.

It's been a horribly persistant libel over the centuries, and it still gets peddled. It's been suggested that it's a distortion of a libel against Christians by Romans, based on rumours about the Eucharist. It's a lie that should always be challenged.

But the term also seems to get used in a very different sense, as an accusation against allegations that the Israeli government or its agents have been responsible for atrocities against civilians. That seems to me an unworthy and quite unjustifiable extension of the expression. Sadly it seems that such atrocities have taken place, and have nothing to do with "blood libel" any more than they would if it was some other country or people being accused. It's not a blood libel against Palestinians to say thta some of them have caried out suicide bomb attacks, it's a sad truth.

Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 06:43 AM

CarolC tells us, "They [the Palestinian Arabs] did try passive resistance in some peaceful protests, and many of them were killed for it even though they were not armed, or even throwing stones. And on at least one occassion, this happened to Israeli citizens who were of Palestinian ancestry, inside Israel, and not the occupied territories. Did you ever hear about that?"

My response, and I speak as someone who referred to the Israelis as "a merciless and remorseless oppressor," are these questions:

1. When did the Palestinian Arabs ever try an organized and disciplines campaign of nonviolent resistance? I do not mean "passive resistance in some peaceful protests" within a larger context of armed struggle, such as the IRA and its sympathizers have done in Ireland. I mean a Gandhian style campaign which differentiates itself both from armed struggle and from submissive collaboration.

2. Was it not the Palestinian Arabs who initiated the violence? I do not mean launching the Intifada. I mean the organized attacks on Jews in Palestine that go back to at least 1929 and continued with little abatement until the end of the 1948-1949 Arab-Israeli War. Among the most atrocious of these incidents was the April 1948 massacre, in which Palestinian Arabs wiped out a convoy of 78 doctors, nurses, and medical students who were making their way to Hadassah Hospital on Mount Scopus in Jerusalem. There were certainly massacres committed by the other side -- Deir Yassin readily comes to mind -- but until the aftermath the 1967 war, most acts of violence against civilians were committed by the Arab side.

3. Was it not the Palestinian Arab leadership and the Arab states who rejected the United Nations attempt to resolve the Palestine conflict peacefully in 1947? I know that no one relishes to play the role of a Michael Collins -- and I still enjoy singing Take It Down from the Mast, Irish Traitors -- but there are times when one must realize that the struggle should be political and diplomatic, not military. The Jewish leaders in Palestine didn't like the UN plan -- and it was a Jewish rather than an Arab terrorist who assassinated the UN's chief mediator -- but they were savvy enough to accept the plan in principle. If the Arab leaders had done the same, then such things as borders, the rights of minorities living in each others' territory, resettlement of refugess, etc., would have been settled by negotiations, not force of arms. And the lot of the Palestinians would likely be a heck of a lot better than it is now.

4. Is it too late for the Palestinians of organize a Gandhian campaign at this juncture of history? That question cannot be answered before it is tried. A Gandhian campaign is likely to be met, at least initially, with violence and slander -- which is exactly what happened to Rachel Corrie -- but that must not be the excuse for abandoning the campaign. I still maintain that Rachel Corrie was foolhardy, but hers is exactly the kind of foolhardiness that our present times demand. Through her nonviolent act, she was speaking not only to her Israeli adversaries but to her Palestinian comrades as well.

Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: Wolfgang
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 07:47 AM

A letter to my Palestinian friends in which Marcia Pailly speaks many of my thoughts.

And I would sometimes wish that of the famous UNSC resolution 242 not only the part
Withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict (mind: it does not say 'the territories' or 'all'; and that was omitted with purpose) is paraphrased or cited in our discussions but also the following
...respect for and acknowledgement of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area.... Both governments involved have a lot to account for in which (quite different) ways they do not honour yet that UNSC demand.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 11:35 AM

Fair questions, Janice in NJ. Some of my answers to your questions are in this thread (that I also linked to above), especially some of your questions about who started the aggression back in the early days of Israel. This thread would be a good start for you while I work on gathering the rest of the information I need to fully answer your questions:

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=56679&messages

Keep in mind that Jewish and Arab Palestinians were living in relative peace before the European Zionists started settling in that area. And the "Palestinians" did at that time commit some atrocities
such as the one you mention. But from your words, I gather you have not heard of the "Nakba" or of the many Palestinian villiages such as Deir Yassin that were brutalized, emptied, and some even slaughtered in cold blood by the European settlers during that same time period. I'll start working on the documentation later today.

Here are a couple to start you off with:

Dier Yassin Remembered

A link to the above site can be found in this site, which is maintained by people who describe themselves as Israeli Zionists:

Coming to Terms with Deir Yassin (by) Ami Isseroff

Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 03:37 PM

I do know about Deir Yassin, and I said so in my second question above, but that's not the main point I was making. Each side has committed acts of violence against the other, but the first organized -- some would say orchestrated -- and sustained armed attacks came from Palestinian Arabs against Jewish settlers and sabras (Palestine-born Jews) alike in August 1929. During a week of one-sided violence, 133 Jews were killed throughout Palestine, including children and the elderly. The attacks were led by Hajj Amin al-Husseini, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, who falsely accused the Jewish community of planning to raze Islamic holy sites. Contemporay newspaper accounts reported that al-Husseini issued the call "Itbak al-Yahudeen!" which means "Slaughter the Jews!" More anti-Jewish violence occurred during the late 1930s, which led the British authorities to suspend Jewish immigration in 1939.

While these historical events cannot justify Israel's present day brutality, they certainly help us understand its origins.

"The villainy you teach me I will execute, and it shall go hard, but I will better the instruction." --- Spoken by Shylock in The Merchant of Venice by William Shakespeare.

Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 04:37 PM

I haven't even begun to answer your questions, Janice. As I said, I will answer them later today (possibly tomorrow). I'm not going to make a halfbaked effort with my answers since you obviously put a lot of time and thought into your questions.

Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 05:03 PM

When you ahve a cycle of atrocity it may sometimes be possible to identity one incident from one side whiuch started it, but aftrer it's been going on for a couple of generations that ceases to be too relevant.

Imagine this was a vendetta, which in a sense it is. At the root of it from one point of view there would be a particular act of violence by people on one side against people on the other; but dig down past thta root and there will always be other disputes and grievances that led up to that.

Unravelling history like that might make sense as part of some kind of process of truth and reconciliation, in which each side would concentrate its attention on its own atrocities againstvthe other side.

Maybe that'll come about in time, and maybe there are things people can do about it at present. (I believe there were some people working along those lines at one time.) But at present it seems to me the main focus should be on what is happening at the present, and stopping the killing and destruction that is taking place which makes things worse, and leads to more killing and desruction. That was what Rachel was trying to do.

Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 06:59 PM

McGrath-I agree. Past responsibility is less important than current actions.

Janice-I'm as interested in the answer to your first question as you are, but I think I can answer the others. 2) The violence was pretty much simultaneously begun by both sides, but the Arabs were better armed and more numerous, so they had more success. 3)Yes, you are correct. 4)It is never too late to stop killing, as long as anyone is left alive. CarolC's statement about the counterproductivity of Israeli violence holds equally true for Palestinian terrorism: the more Israelis they kill, the harder the IDF tries to stop them.

Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: InOBU
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 10:07 PM

There is a report, at the demo today, that another American was shot by Israeli soldiers, and a large number of Palistinians as well, anyone heard the details?
Peace
Larry

Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 10:44 PM

I can see this is going to take me at least a couple of days now. I'll post my answers on Saturday or Sunday.

Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 11:12 PM

Janice;

As far as trying to find a workable plan, I think that digging up stuff that is pushing 5 generations old is a tad non-productive. I mean if we just got back to the creation of Israel, you'll find that Palestinians were good little prisoners for pushing three decades.

But that's not even the isssue. The issue is today and what can be done to stop a cycle of viole3nce on both sides of the conflict. Yeah, I could say that it's all Isreals fault for having the arrogance to bulldoze and occupy Palestian terrrotory. And I couold say that it's the Palestianian's fault for continuing to not reign in the terror of Hamas.

But in reality it is both side's fault. The fact that Isreal has the "fire power" doesn't change the fact that both sides need to chill.

And if the US were to take an "active" role, this could be done. At some point in time it must. Remoinds me of the sick person who doesn't want to go to the doctor for fear of finding out that he or she is indeed, ahhh, sick....

Bobert

Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 11:52 PM

What could the U.S. do, except get the Palestinians so angry at us they forget about bombing Israelis? That much we're already trying for.

Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 06:01 AM

I'm Irish-American, so I'm an expert at digging up stuff that's 50 generations old. A mere 5 generations is only the day before yesterday.

My point, however, is not to fix blame, but to understand the current situation. That's why we study history. And whenever I search the historical record, it becomes clear that the first organized and sustained violence were the Arab attacks against Jews throughout Palestine during August 1929.

And yes, I have heard of al-Nakba, which is Arabic for the Catastrophe, meaning the Israeli Declaration of Independence and the events that followed. The irony is that the Catastrophe, including the Israeli annexation of certain lands allocated to the Arab State of Palestine under the 1947 UN Partition Plan, came about in great part because the combined armies of Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, and the Trans-Jordan invaded Israel on its first day of existence.

Once again, none of this justifies Israel's current policy of brutality, but it helps us understand its origins.

Subject: RE: Obit: Peaceful protestor killed by bulldozer
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 12:00 PM

The irony is that the Catastrophe, including the Israeli annexation of certain lands allocated to the Arab State of Palestine under the 1947 UN Partition Plan, came about in great part because the combined armies of Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, and the Trans-Jordan invaded Israel on its first day of existence.

This is simply not true. It's one of the many myths about Israel that have been foating around for a long time to the great harm of the Palestinian people. Since you don't seem to be reading my links, I'll provide the relevent text here:

Statehood and Expulsion

What was the Arab reaction to the announcement of the creation of the state of Israel?

"The armies of the Arab states entered the war immediately after the State of Israel was founded in May. Fighting continued, almost all of it within the territory assigned to the Palestinian state...About 700,000 Palestinians fled or were expelled in the 1948 conflict." Noam Chomsky, "The Fateful Triangle."

Was the part of Palestine assigned to a Jewish state in mortal danger from the Arab armies?

"The Arab League hastily called for its member countries to send regular army troops into Palestine. They were ordered to secure only the sections of Palestine given to the Arabs under the partition plan. But these regular armies were ill equipped and lacked any central command to coordinate their efforts...[Jordan's King Abdullah] promised [the Israelis and the British] that his troops, the Arab Legion, the only real fighting force among the Arab armies, would avoid fighting with Jewish settlements...Yet Western historians record this as the moment when the young state of Israel fought off "the overwhelming hordes' of five Arab countries. In reality, the Israeli offensive against the Palestinians intensified." "Our Roots Are Still Alive," by the Peoples Press Palestine Book Project.