BS: Lessons of Gulf War I

Subject: BS: Lessons of Gulf War I
From: outfidel
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 10:59 AM

As we prepare for Gulf War II, let's bear in mind the suffering in Iraq from Gulf War I (Source: UNICEF)
-- civilian death toll of 110,000 people -- 70,000 of whom were children under age 15
-- combined death toll of 500,000 people as a result of the war and economic sanctions in the last 12 years
-- death rate for Iraqi children under age 5 doubled between the late 1980s and the late 1990s

Also, if you have the stomach for it, check out the photos that did NOT make it onto CNN in "The Unseen Gulf War"

Subject: RE: BS: Lessons of Gulf War I
From: Troll
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 11:32 AM

I looked at the photos.
People die in wars. It's not pretty but it happens.
Saddam invaded Kuwait. The UN forces, led by the US drove him out. He signed a cease-fire agreement that he then refused to honor, knowing that the sanctions would not be lifted until he did. He stole food from his own people by skimming money from the Oil for Food program.
I, for one, will not accept the blame for the deaths of the Iraqis who died in the first Gulf War. Those deaths are on the soul of Saddam Hussein and the blood of his countrymen is on his hands.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Lessons of Gulf War I
From: DougR
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 11:44 AM

Hear, hear, troll. Isn't it amazing that when blame for those casualities are assigned, Saddam comes out smelling like a rose.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Lessons of Gulf War I
From: outfidel
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 11:53 AM

> People die in wars. It's not pretty but it happens.

"Woe unto the world because of offenses; for it must needs be that offenses come, but woe to that man by whom the offense cometh." -- Abraham Lincoln, quoting the Bible

Re: blame -- I never said or implied that Saddam was blame-free. He's a butcher and a tyrant. But there's plenty of blame to go around. Saddam is at the top of the list, but ignoring the role & responsibility of the US/UN takes an act of blind faith.

Subject: RE: BS: Lessons of Gulf War I
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 01:58 PM

And don't forget the UK, which in many ways screwed things up in the first place, when it drew arbitrary boundaries round the country it cobbled together and called Iraq, and the bit they chopped off and called Kuwait, to suit the interests of the oil barons at the time.

Subject: RE: BS: Lessons of Gulf War I
From: Troll
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 03:12 PM

Golly Kevin. Life is SO unfair.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Lessons of Gulf War I
From: Ireland
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 03:20 PM

In many ways screwed things up,elaborate please. While your at it McG of H, at what time in history do we draw a line under the past and realise that mistakes have been made and that the beating sticks should be put away?

Saddam bankrupted his country,and what do we get,the Brits did it bs,it is this lack of putting the blame were it actually belongs that perpetuates the situation.

Saddam if he was any kind of man at all would have taken action which was beneficial for his people, he made conscious decisions, no one held a gun to his head.

As you have pointed out before Mc G of H, as there are different courses of action to take before the US/UK go to war with Iraq, Saddam had the same options, since the day and hour he came to power.

This man gassed his own people,who can be blamed for that? Because the Brits in the past acted wrongly does that give reason or excuse to such action? No!

Subject: RE: BS: Lessons of Gulf War I
From: Troll
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 11:37 PM

Ireland, you need to realize that there are many people who, because their political G-d and Savior was not elected see everything that their country does as wrong and they will go all the way back to the stone age to find justification for their position.
Mostly, they are jealous because they are out of power. It is not only important that they win. Their oponents must lose.
And any action that helps toward that goal is aceptable.
In the US, the liberals hate Bush so much that they would rather see Saddam remain in power than see him overthrown by a Republican.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Lessons of Gulf War I
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 03:27 AM

MGOH,

"And don't forget the UK, which in many ways screwed things up in the first place, when it drew arbitrary boundaries round the country it cobbled together and called Iraq,"

The boundaries were drawn up by the French and the British as a result of the dismemberment of the Ottoman Empire at the end of the First World War.

"....and the bit they chopped off and called Kuwait, to suit the interests of the oil barons at the time."

That is totally incorrect, the Sheikdom of Kuwait existed long before the end of the First World War. The present city was established back in the 1600's. The link to Baghdad was through allegiance to the Caliph of Baghdad for protection, but Kuwait has always been independent. The ruler of Kuwait signed a treaty with the British in 1899, to guarantee the sovereignty of Kuwait. This was done while the Ottoman Empire was still in existence - it had nothing to do with oil, at the time it had everything to do with a proposed railway link between the Mediterranean and the Persian Gulf.

Subject: RE: BS: Lessons of Gulf War I
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 04:08 AM

And Saddam was armed and supported by the USA over 20 years back because they were at was with IRAN (after the Shah of Persia departed into exile, and the Ayatolla Khomeni took power).
Saddam was then regarded as an ally of the west, and treated accordingly.
At that time he was a mudering psychopath who treated his opponents exactly the same way he treats them now.
There are other dictators around the world who treat their political opponents as barbarically as Saddam. I seem to recall that the English cricket team was expected to play a World Cup Cricket tournament in one of them about a month ago. Bush will happily support and trade with these.
It is strange that his behaviour is ignored or even tolerated by the USA when is supporting them against another country, but suddenly becomes the justification for USA to invade when Bush wants a scapegoat for the actions of terrorists who were resident in The USA, and European countries such as Germany before September 11 two years back.
Without a mandate from the United Nations this is an illegal invasion of a sovereigh country.

Subject: RE: BS: Lessons of Gulf War I
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 05:35 AM

From Geoff the Duck's post above:

"..Saddam was armed and supported by the USA over 20 years back because they were at wa(r) with IRAN..."

That is incorrect, Saddam was not armed by the USA - By France, by Russia and by China, yes, by the USA, no. The US supplied Iraq with intelligence information.

"Saddam was then regarded as an ally of the west, and treated accordingly."

The aid given to Saddam Hussein by the countries mentioned above was given with the sole purpose of ensuring Iraq's existing borders. The aid was given because Iraq appeared to be losing the war against Iran that was started by Saddam Hussein. Basra and southern Iraq looked as if it would fall to Iran, that was considered undesireable at the time by many nations within the region and by many nations with interests in the area. Saddam's Iraq has never been an ally of the west, among other reasons, Saddam's policy with regard to Israel would never permit it.

The USA's objections to Robert Mugabe's regime in Zimbabwe have at times been more vociferous than those expressed by Britain and its Commonwealth. The USA in no way supports that regime.

The USA and the UK have tried everything within their power to obtain some form of mandate from the United Nations that would allow enforcement of existing UN Security Council Resolutions regarding Iraq. That process was brought to a halt by a clear statement by France that they would veto any resolution that would permit such enforcement.

The anti-war peace movement harps on about US Imperialism, about the legality of war, about the potential loss of innocent Iraqi civilians.
They state that they are anti-Bush - not pro-Hussein. But the latter is what they have proved to be, these Saddam apologists have bolstered his belief that once more he thumb his nose at the international community and get away with it - in doing so he has seriously underestimated the resolve of those aligned against him. Hundreds if not thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians are at present dying in Iraq at the hands of this man and his regime.

Some may argue that this war is "illegal" - that does not alter the fact that when it comes it will be justifiable, to sit back and do nothing is morally indefensible.

The lesson of Gulf War 1 - Get rid of this man and his regime and ensure that it is not allowed to re-invent itself and return.

Subject: RE: BS: Lessons of Gulf War I
From: Wolfgang
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 06:52 AM

History of Kuwait"

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Lessons of Gulf War I
From: Gervase
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 09:00 AM

Not armed by the US? I was under the impression that Iraq was given large quantities of Sarin precursor by the Bush Sr administration even after the attack on Halabjah.

Subject: RE: BS: Lessons of Gulf War I
From: DougR
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 01:50 AM

Right, McGrath, you shouldn't miss an opportunity to trash your own country!

Outfidel: it was unseemly of you to not mention the U.K. in your list of countries to blame.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Lessons of Gulf War I
From: SarahC
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 01:55 AM

Welcome to Mordor!

Subject: RE: BS: Lessons of Gulf War I
From: Stephen L. Rich
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 11:22 AM

Unfortunately, one of the other lessons of that war was for the anti-war movement and it was not learned.

The lesson is this:
When the government has mobilised the troops and have started calling in the reserves it means that the decision HAS ALREADY BEEN TAKEN!!! At that point it it TOO LATE to take to the streets in protest. The war, at that point, is all but a done deal and no amount of demonstration to the contrary is going to stop it.

It's a damned shame that things are that way, but there it is.

Stephen Lee

Subject: RE: BS: Lessons of Gulf War I
From: toadfrog
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 11:43 PM

For reasons almost too numerous to mention, the first Gulf War was an entirely different matter. It responded to a clear, impermissible act of aggression. It was authorized by the United Nations. It was not the first installment in a doctrine which says America will now run the world. And if you will excuse the grubby economic comment, it was not likely to bankrupt the United States. I personally believe it was justified. By the way, has anyone noticed the TIMES OF LONDON article on the speech given by Bush, Senior, at Tufts University? I assume it's already been discussed in the Forum; has it? Sounds as if he had some pretty sound criticisms of his son. But maybe that's just spin.

Subject: RE: BS: Lessons of Gulf War I
From: outfidel
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 09:06 AM

> In the US, the liberals hate Bush so much that they would rather see Saddam remain in power than see him overthrown by a Republican.

Personally, I don't hate Bush and I'm not liberal. I voted for GWB in 2000.

I would rather see Saddam remain in power under inspections by the UN than see 100,000+ innocent Iraqi civilians get killed.

> Outfidel: it was unseemly of you to not mention the U.K. in your list of countries to blame

Unseemly only if I were tried to compile an exhaustive list of countries to blame. But I didn't, so it's not.

But thanks for your Ms. Manners-like concern -- wouldn't want to appear "unseemly" in public.