BS: Counter demonstrations to support troops

Subject: RE: BS: Counter demonstrations to support troops
From: DougR
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 03:33 PM

No Joe. I think you will find that when there have been criticizms of you I have always supported you. I did not mean to infer that you did not have a right to comment to Beccy about her thread. Since you are one of the managing class, though, your words carry a bit more weight than the average folk.

Larry and Don: you are comparing apples with oranges. Both the down and out vets of other wars deserve respect and attention, but Beccy's chief concern, and I think she has made this quite clear, are the young men and women fighting a war in Iraq at this very moment.

Beccy: I am not one to demonstrate about anything. Primarily because I question the value of demonstrations. I always have for whatever purpose. I salute those who believe they do accomplish something and do participate in them in promotion of whatever. I do totally support the troops, however, and vervently hope they all come back safely. Not all of them will, but I hope they do.

Lepus: your description of the folks who are putting their lives on the line in Iraq so that you are free to insult them is just that. Insulting.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Counter demonstrations to support troops
From: Ireland
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 03:35 PM

Sorry Beccy, not wishing to irritate you, Don has a very valid point,which illustrates the duplicity of standards within governments attitudes towards the very people they send to war.

I hope Joe does not give out to me, I have copied part of LtCol Tim Collins addressing the Royal Irish Regiment, on the eve of battle yesterday.
We go to war not to conquer. We are entering Iraq to free a people.
Show them respect.
If you are ferocious in battle, remember to be magnanimous in victory.

In his address to the troops, Lt Col Collins cautioned against actions which would bring the RIR into disrespect, not once did he advocate the indiscriminate action that Lupus has referred to.

I ask for all to give their military the support and understanding they need, you may not agree with them and what they do, but to be an effective force they have to obey their orders. I ask the you understand this and respect the people see this as their duty.

I must admit I do find the posturing of some US top brass, some person going on about hammer time, does not make for good public relations.

Subject: RE: BS: Counter demonstrations to support troops
From: artbrooks
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 03:44 PM

The statements that the government doesn't care about homeless veterans and doesn't acknowledge the existance are, in the words of the vernacular, a bunch of shit.

The Federal government, through the VA, has an active program of funding homeless programs, and the link to information on that is here. In addition, the agency manages a network of Domiciliaries for homeless veterans and funds State Veterans Homes as well. Many veterans on the street will not go to these places because they have a zero-tolerance for alcohol and drugs policy. There have been studies done that imply that many of the "veterans" on the street have no military service, but have learned to claim this as a way to elicit extra benefits. One study summary I do have says that 1/3 of homeless men in the 1980s were veterans...of all wars. It also states that, at that time, about 40% of adult males were veterans (Stolen Valor, B.G.Burkett, p. 317), which would indicate that homeless veterans were perportionate to the overall population.

The VA also has a very active medical research program on Gulf War issues. dedicating to studying the multiple issues that have been lumped into the term "Gulf War Syndrome" by the uninformed. The January 2002 report to Congress on this program is here.

Subject: RE: BS: Counter demonstrations to support troops
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 05:00 PM

Sayyyy, very perceptive, Doug. I was afraid I didn't get the whole "insulting" thing across when I said "fuck the troops," so thanks for noticing. :}

Like they're really "putting their lives on the line." You'd have a better chance of getting killed driving to work than you would watching from the safety of a boat while bombs and cruise missiles pulverise "the enemy" for you. Sorry, not impressed.

But... you're right, Doug. If they weren't over there, bombarding an annoying but mostly harmless third-world dictatorship into oblivion, we'd be living in, like, Nazi China or something, dude.

Let's see... Bagpuss. I'd say your brother, who considered joining an organisation that exists only to kill people, just because he might get the chance to fly a plane, was "misguided," at least. If I was offered my "dream job," but one of the conditions of being hired was that maybe, I might sort of have to, uh, blow a few people to Hell, I wouldn't have to think much before turning it down.

And maybe the ratio of "stupid" to "evil" and "misguided" is different over there (you're in the UK, right?), but here, soldiers are mostly "stupid."

And Ireland, see above. And it's LEPUS.

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Counter demonstrations to support troops
From: michaelr
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 07:32 PM

DougR -- you don't think parading around in a Civil War uniform constitutes a "demonstration" of some sort?

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: BS: Counter demonstrations to support troops
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 07:34 PM

Well danged, Beccy. Looks as if ya' got yerseff a good ol' fashion whoppin' here. Hey, I know about 'em. Trouble is really in the name of the thread. "Counter demonstartions to support our troops". The implication in using the word "counter" is that one cannot support peace and the troops. It is inherently arrogant in that in it you assume and pass judgement. Hey, I've done exactly what you have done so I know what I'm talking about here.

I believe that you have been caught up in the somewhat narrowminded "With us or against us" stand of Mr. Bush. It has done nothing but alienated much of the world and in you're disguising it in the name of your thread, you have reaped, as Bush, pretty much what you have sowed.

And I'm not passing judgement here since I do the same thing, just an observation. But when I do it, I expect to get the "blast" and am not shocked when it comes my way.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Counter demonstrations to support troops
From: JudyR
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 07:49 PM

Art-- You say that statements that the government doesn't care about homeless veterans and doesn't acknowledge the existance are, in the words of the vernacular, a bunch of shit."

Let me just say that in caring for their veterans, Republican administrations have been shamefully remiss. I have a disabled veteran friend (who is also the son of a man who lost his leg in WWII and was the president of Veterans Affairs). He has told me that in years when funding for every other program has been increased, VA benefits have decreased, or at most, stayed the same. Particularly under Reagan. And now Bush is talking out of one side of his mouth about "our boys" while cutting veterans benefits with the other hand.

As for the homeless veterans, Reagan unleashed onto them onto the streets by cutting budgets for half-way houses, mental institutions and hospitals. It was the first time since the Depression we have seen homeless on our streets, and shamefully, it continues to this day. I don't think blaming the veterans for those who are somehow caught "lying." Granted, there may be some with zero tolerance" re the drug and alcohol rules, but I would almost be willing to bet that whatever patch the govt. is putting on the problem is not nearly enough to address the problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Counter demonstrations to support troops
From: artbrooks
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 09:22 PM

JudyR...I'm not a fan of either Mr. Reagan or Mr. Bush, but it is simply not true that funds for veterans programs have decreased annually, either in the budget or in funds adjusted for inflation. It is also true, and I say this as a person who worked for the VA from 1974 to 2001, that the agency generally did better under Democratic administrations.

Subject: RE: BS: Counter demonstrations to support troops
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 09:37 PM

art and Judy: You're both right. Our Vets haven't gotten the level of serives that they deserve but neither has the rest of the population. Health care in America is the best in the world for, ahhhh, those that can afford it. Unfortunately, that's only the very wealthy and a few folks who are lucky enough to work for good employers who are still able to enroll their employees in good programs.

But with 41M folks withotu any type of health insurance and another 100M that are enrolled in programs that can be cancelled if you get sick, it ain't hard to see that their is a trend here and it doesn't favor vets and/or the working class (of wihich most vets belong.)

Yeah, most of us are getting shafted in Boss Hog's America...

And it's gonna get a lot worse and may not get better if we can't get Boss Hog's heel off out necks...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Counter demonstrations to support troops
From: JudyR
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 03:08 AM

Art, sounds like you know what you're talking about! He did say that Reagan wanted to make VA hospitals open to Medicaid patients, which would have caused a disaster of overcrowding, he said. He may have just meant the Republicans, who he hates with a passion. I see some of this myself, though -- one of our two VA hospitals had to close as an overnight facility a few years ago (don't remember the year, could even have been Clinton), making veterans have to travel miles and miles out of their way.

Bobert -- yeah, I'm with you on the need for health care. None of my friends have jobs that provide health care, and several of them live in fear of being dropped from their expensive plans all the time. How we can be waging a war and spending billions at this time, when our own needs are so dire...and will only get worse...grrrrrrr. !!!!!

I want a regime change. I wish it could happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Counter demonstrations to support troops
From: *daylia*
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 07:59 AM

Troll wanted to me to "Tell us daylia, what perfect planet do you live on that you feel you can instruct us in the way we should run our country?

The beautiful planet upon which I am currently incarnate is governed by many "laws of nature", one of which is the "law of equal return". In physics, this translates roughly to "for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction". In human social affairs, the Hindus have long called it "karma", meaning "whatever you do comes back to you."

Apparently the present rulers of the US, and many of your past ones, consider it their divine (?) "right" to "enforce American principles and American interests" upon the rest of the planet, using "all means necessary" (your President's words), legal or illegal, moral or immoral.

If you don't like the "returns" this earns you, in the form of unsolicitied advice about how to run your country, then either get another President, take those "American principles and American interests" back to the drawing board, or both. Preferably both, and the quicker the better, for the sake of the rest of my beautiful planet and all life upon it.

Simpler yet, how about giving your rulers a crash course in the meaning of the word "boundaries", or maybe "international law"? "Ethics" and "compassion" might prove helpful as well.

Or maybe they just need a reminder that unlike in your "World Series", in real life the US is only one (relatively puny) part of the world, and not the whole thing.

If you still don't understand where I'm coming from, an elementary geography lesson would likely help you, Troll.

Oh yes, and I wanted to change the word "victim" in the statement I made above "I wish only the best for your family members stationed in Iraq, and all other victims of your government's propoganda machine."

I was trying to be compassionate when I said that, and I do wish the best for everyone involved in this conflict. But as someone pointed out above, the truth is that soldiers are not really 'victims' of the propoganda machine unless they are forced to fight. Your soldiers freely chose their brainwashing, their present role as high-tech, gov't-salaried murderers of innocent people and illegal invaders of a sovereign nation. They are therefore willing accomplices, not victims, in the vicious criminal act currently underway in Iraq.

Sadly, they too will reap what they sow. As will we all.

I'd say "God help us all", but "God" helps those who help themselves.
So that's my BIG helping for y'all! Don't choke on it now!

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Counter demonstrations to support troops
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 09:58 AM

daylia:

Whereas I am in agreement with you in all most everything you say I might just throw a few thoughts into the mix.

Many of these soldiers never thought in their wildest dreams that they would end up having to fight. When we look at the past decade or so, though there have been wars, these wars have been fought and won (for a lack of a better term since no one really wins a war except Satan...) from the air with bombs.

With that said, lots of kids who have been heavily recruited in high school have joined the military as a means of getting an education. This partly expalins why so many of ground troops are from variuos minorities. These folks, as well as most of the world's population in the year 2000 could not have forseen the events that would unfold as the result of aa arrogant, unilaterialist President.

So, I'm sure that the majority of these folks deep down inside are womndering just what the heck went wrong with their plans to move up in life. Bad timing.

Now I know I am not speaking of all these people but enough of them for me to feel needs our good thoughts and prayers that they will not be put in harms way or inflict harm on anyone else.

Peace

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Counter demonstrations to support troops
From: *daylia*
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 10:21 AM

Bobert I see your point, but it's difficult for me to empathize with the soldiers. I've been in the situation of badly needing a job myself, but I have never considered a military career even though that is a 'tradition' in my family. Why? Two reasons:

1. I can't stand taking orders from anyone, least of all political rulers who all too often have only their personal ambitions at heart.

2. I could never sacrifice my own principles re the sanctity of life for a paycheck. Guess I'd rather die myself than get paid to kill innocent people.

That sounds pretty simplistic, but the truth is usually very simple. The soldiers in question have elected to put themselves in harm's way, and to harm innocent people. They could just as easily elect to lay down their arms and go home asap. And until they do, I don't think any amount of praying is going to help them.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Counter demonstrations to support troops
From: DougR
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 10:56 AM

daylia: well I, for one, agree. Your thinking does sound pretty simplistic.

michaelr: I don't know. I never gave much thought to people who "parade around in Civil War uniforms." I don't do it myself, but if someone wants to do it, okay by me.

Bobert, etc: I have been more pleased by my treatment at VA clinics than I have those provided by my HMO. I would rate the VA as excellent when it comes to medical care. I defer to Art on other matters, who is much more familiar with other aspects of the VA than I am.

Beccy: it appears you are fighting an uphill battle with your thread, but not to be surprised. As Joe said, just remember where you are.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Counter demonstrations to support troops
From: *daylia*
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 11:12 AM

Doug, remember this?

"Tis the gift to be simple,
'Tis the gift to be free,
'Tis the gift to come down where we ought to be,
And when we find ourselves in the place just right,
It will be in the valley of love and delight.

When true simplicity is gained,
to bow and to bend, we will not be ashamed
To turn, turn, will be our delight,
'Til by turning, turning, we come round right."

Here's to bowing, bending, turning, and true simplicity!!

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Counter demonstrations to support troops
From: Ireland
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 12:10 PM

I do not want to cause offence here, I do have to ask, no Army no armed forces at all, who keeps the wolf from the door?

Try to answer this as if you are in the real world, that is Bin Laden and his ilk exist. None of this if every one put down there weapons crap either, pure simple logic is all that is asked for, how would we defend our children,family, loved one's and fellow citizens and protect our weak?

Subject: RE: BS: Counter demonstrations to support troops
From: GUEST,Penny S. (elsewhere)
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 12:13 PM

This was in The Guardian last Saturday. I found it moving.

The Sniper's Tale

Though I opposed the war, and still do, and resent being told that now it is being fought I should shut up and support our troops, I do feel that some support is required. Not shutting up. (What is the war for, if we lose that freedom?) Those who are bearing the burden of other men's decisions deserve to receive the cover they are promised, the logistical support they need, medical support, the knowledge that behind the lines are people working to make their task as easy and as safe as it can be.
That support cannot come from us. (I'd learn to knit socks if required.) It comes from the governments concerned making sure that everything about the campaign is set up to work properly. It should already be in place. The rest of us can pray - that's private. We can support families, if we know any - still private. We can urge that adequate arrangements are made for those returning after the war. That's public, and something that, on the evidence of Elizabeth 1's Poor Laws, has a long standing failure rate.
If we go out to say "Support the troops" it can too easily be made to mean "Support the War", and these two are not the same. With the warb now in progress, I support fighting it as cleanly as possible, as quickly as possible, and with as few casualties as possible, on all sides. Much of the talk I heard on the radio from the military this morning sounded as if that's what they would like, too. But I still will not support it as something we had to do, now.
I know that many join up because they do see it as a job that has to be done, in the interests of others who cannot do it for themselves, and though there are bad apples in every bunch of people, I wouldn't say they have chosen to join a group dedicated to killing, and insult them for it. I wouldn't think any serious army would find eager killers very reliable soldiers, anyway, and I imagine that a lot of the bad-mouthing the enemy that goes on is like operating theatre humour. It's needed to protect the mind from the unbearable.

Hold them in the light out there - they are all in a dark place not of their choosing.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Counter demonstrations to support troops
From: *daylia*
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 12:37 PM

Ireland, if humans ever evolve to the point where armies and weapons are a just a sordid memory, it will be because everyone lays down their arms and goes home to tend their own gardens. There would no longer be "wolves at the door". And such an action would be best begun by the biggest, most dangerous "wolves" setting an example for all the little hyenas to follow, so to speak.

Pretty simple, straightforward logic. But I'm not holding my breath for that bright day - as long as it pays to be a "wolf" (no disrespect to wolves intended), there will be wolves at the door.

Sad but true.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Counter demonstrations to support troops
From: artbrooks
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 12:50 PM

The idea that most, or even many, of the women and men in uniform are there because they can't get jobs or need money for higher education is a gross insult to them. However, I suppose that's the point.

Subject: RE: BS: Counter demonstrations to support troops
From: Troll
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 12:59 PM

Kipling said it better than I ever could in his poem, "Tommy Atkins:
"Now makin' mock 'o uniforms that guards you while you sleep,
Is cheaper than them uniforms. And they're starvation cheap."
italics mine
So pontificate away, all of you who mock those whohelp to keep you free. You'll change your tune when another Hitler or Tojo arises and you want soldiers to protect you.
"...But it's 'special train for Atkins' when the drums begins to play."

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Counter demonstrations to support troops
From: *daylia*
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 01:02 PM

PS imo Bin Laden and "his ilk" are no different than Bush and "his ilk". Just a lot poorer and less powerful. At present Bin Laden, and Saddam Hussein are being used, rather transparently, as a scapegoat, a distraction for the square-eyed propoganda-slurping masses, by the Bushies and their ill as they carry out their illegal plans for economic and military global domination.

Oops, that's ilk. Ill ilk. *whew* try sayin that 10X fast!

Subject: RE: BS: Counter demonstrations to support troops
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 01:04 PM

Penny, thanks so much for the link to that extraordinary excerpt. Also, for your very astute and profound words. It is a pleasure, as always, to read your take on things.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Counter demonstrations to support troops
From: *daylia*
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 01:09 PM

Troll maybe one day you'll wake up and find that another Hitler has arisen, and he's in your White House right now, working very hard to relieve you of whatever's left of your 'freedom'.

There's a lot of people here who've woken up a long time ago though ... and if what they (and I) suspect proves to be true, it's them you'll be lining up to thank as they save your sorry butt.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Counter demonstrations to support troops
From: Ireland
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 01:13 PM

That's it Daylia ? That is your answer if, old saying here, if your granny had balls she would be your granda.

Saying if, does not answer my question, come into the real world,deal with the situations we have. I take offence when people like you advocate the utter nonsense of day dreams and wishful thinking, while others are left to make real decisions and take real action, none of the what if crap.

While I agree that people have the right to argue against the war at the very least cut the if only crap. I agree with what Artbrooks has said, it is an insult to those who feel in their heart that they are doing some good.

So far nine men have lost their lives,they put their money where their mouth is, it is so easy to sit at the keyboard and mouth off.

All I say is may they rest in peace and their sacrifice as far as I'm concerned is not in vain, at least they were trying to do something.

Before anyone says it I do regret the loss of Iraqi or any other lives, and I'll not insult their memory (Iraqi military) by insinuating the same crap about them as has been put across about our troops.

Subject: RE: BS: Counter demonstrations to support troops
From: Ireland
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 01:24 PM

Thats the point Daylia, who protects their citizens from Bush and his ilk? Are the Iraqi military meant to lay down their arms?

Subject: RE: BS: Counter demonstrations to support troops
From: *daylia*
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 01:32 PM

Ireland I am in the real world. I have the same access to the very same "facts" of the matter as you do, and I have drawn different conclusions. Time will tell which conclusions are correct.

I've always thought that military "solutions" are the least desirable ones in solving international problems. Unfortunately, they are the ones that continue to reap the biggest profit - and I'm not talking about soldier's salaries here.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Counter demonstrations to support troops
From: *daylia*
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 01:42 PM

Are the Iraqi military meant to lay down their arms? Of course not, Ireland. I certainly wouldn't if any of that 'ill ilk' broke into my home and tried to rob/kill me! Invaders are not 'innocent people', and self-defence is my right and my responsibility.

That's why I said that disarmament must start from the top down, if it's ever going to happen on a global scale. But how to go about doing that is a real challenge - and it won't even begin if no one believes it's possible.

Subject: RE: BS: Counter demonstrations to support troops
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 03:35 PM

When I graduated from high school and entered the University of Washington in 1949, I found myself surrounded by a number of older men (men in their late twenties or early thirties are "older" to an eighteen-year-old). These were World War II veterans going to school on the G. I. Bill. They were mature, serious, goal-oriented students who had seem something of the world, and going to school with such friends and classmates was a unique experience. I was fortunate. And for the service they had rendered to their country, the government expressed its gratitude in concrete and meaningful ways.

Since then, the government hasn't done quite as well. Perhaps the fact that World War II was the last "good" war this country was involved in has something to do with it. As far as I can remember, veterans of the Korean conflict were well take care of, but it's well known that many Vietnam veterans have had a rough time of it. And this was not because of protesters or the large numbers of people who were opposed to the war, but because the government has pretty much turned it's back on them, ignoring their concerns and difficulties.

This was repeated in spades following the Gulf War. Tens of thousands of troops came back with a variety of debilitating but unexplained symptoms that came to be known as "Gulf War Syndrome." The government denies that such a thing exists. Nevertheless, there it is! See HERE.

If I were one of our fighting personnel, I would be far less upset by people protesting against this war than I would be about the possibility that I could come home from the war debilitated by a wound, an injury, or an illness incurred while serving my country, and find that I've been mustered out, dumped on the street, ignored, and left to fend for myself.

It has nothing to do with "apples and oranges," Doug. It has to do with the history of lies, duplicity, and ingratitude of our own government. Just because you ignore a problem—or an injustice—that doesn't mean it isn't there.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Counter demonstrations to support troops
From: Beccy
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 03:40 PM

Thistles and roses, daylia... thistles and roses...

Ya'll have wrecked the thread. It's yours now. Have fun.

Subject: RE: BS: Counter demonstrations to support troops
From: artbrooks
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 03:55 PM

Don Firth: not true. The US government, through the VA, treats, does research, and pays monetary compensation for diseases related to the Gulf War. There is no scientific evidence for a condition called "Gulf War Syndrome" that affects all veterans of that conflict, but there are other, identifiable and treatable medical issues. Also, did you know that Vietnam veterans (and I am one) have higher employment rates and lower suicide rates (and I mention this specifically because of the erroneous data out there) than the veteran population on the whole?

Subject: RE: BS: Counter demonstrations to support troops
From: Ireland
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 04:05 PM

"I could never sacrifice my own principles re the sanctity of life for a paycheck. Guess I'd rather die myself than get paid to kill innocent people."

"PS imo Bin Laden and "his ilk" are no different than Bush and "his ilk".

What is it Daylia that you object to? You would take up arms against such ilk, therefore you would take up arms against Bin Laden,when are your principles not offended?

"Of course not, Ireland. I certainly wouldn't if any of that 'ill ilk' broke into my home and tried to rob/kill me! Invaders are not 'innocent people', and self-defence is my right and my responsibility."

Invaders are not innocent people, tell me this Daylia, what manner of use would an individual effort be to an organised aggressor of superior numbers? Would you cope with them? Who would defend the weak? Who would you call on for help? Would you be willing to pay that person for help in protecting your family? Would you recompense the family of those who came to help you and were wounded or killed?

Your argument of invaders and the action you would take make you no different from the people you condemn. I would never be convinced that you would turn down assistance from an army unit if your life was at risk.

Subject: RE: BS: Counter demonstrations to support troops
From: stevetheORC
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 04:07 PM

Hi All

As I have said previously in this thread I do not support the action taking place in Iraq for one minuet.
But I will ask that people stop slaging off the squadies (Grunts to our US inlaws) these are for the most part kids who joined up for a bit of adventure, see the world.
Some do it to gain a education, some because they want to serve and protect there country and yes some because they have nowhere else to go.
Believe me they do not join thinking 'Hey I can go kill someone now' as some seem to belive, they are trained to follow orders cus this is what keeps them alive.
If they fail to carry out a legitamate order they face a court martial and possible imprisonment (please dont tell me 'well thats what i would do' cus you woud'nt)
By all means slag off the politicos and there ilk who started this but leave the kids alone.

Orc

Subject: RE: BS: Counter demonstrations to support troops
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 04:11 PM

Art, we must be living on different planets. But I'm open. Can you link to some authoritative, non-controversial date?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Counter demonstrations to support troops
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 04:12 PM

"data," that is. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Counter demonstrations to support troops
From: Penny S.
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 04:19 PM

Kat, thanks for the comment - but I don't feel it's entirely mine. It drew on another source.
When I read Swofford's piece, I was deeply impressed with his style, as well as the content, and felt glad that he had been spared to become such a writer. And then wondered how many other mute inglorious Swoffords had fallen in the sand last time. On both sides. We talk too loosely of loss of life, without thinking of the loss of mind, of all the little things the fallen would have done, the bright mornings they would have woken to, the snow they would have cleared, the smiles they would have exchanged across the breakfast table, the jewelled spider web they might have observed, the cups of coffee they would have savoured...all the minutiae of life that will not come again. Maybe there are books lost, art lost, songs lost: there are also letters to loved ones lost, post-it notes telling of love, each life gone as valuable as Swofford's.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Counter demonstrations to support troops
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 04:39 PM

Don:

If you want proof that there's no such thing as Gulf War Syndrome all you have to do is ask the government. They'll be glad to deny it and masybe even send you a color brochure explaining how wonderful depleted uranium is. Might of fact, they're thinking of bottling it up and selling it in the health food stores.

Ahhhh, now back to the *real world*. On another thread concerning the the government's attempts to sweep the ill effects of DU's under the carpet, I presented a lot of info that I don't have bookmarked but can get it should anyone be seriously interested in learning something new rather than just arguing.

Someone pointed out that 9 servicemen have been killed which while terribly shameful, we be pale in comparison top the number of folks who come home from this war sick with DU.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Counter demonstrations to support troops
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 04:58 PM

Last I heard, there were two Marines killed in a fire-fights. Earlier, twelve were killed, eight British and four Americans, when their CH-46 Sea Knight helicopter crashed nine miles south of the Iraqi border town of Umm Qasr. No enemy fire was reported in that incident. So far, we're killing more of our own than the Iraqis are. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Counter demonstrations to support troops
From: artbrooks
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 05:03 PM

This link didn't work last time, but here is the URL for last year's VA report to Congress on Gilf War health care issues: http://www.va.gov/OCA/testimony/24ja02FM_usa.htm. Also, go to www.va.gov/search/ and search for "gulf war" to get a wide variety of studies, reports, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Counter demonstrations to support troops
From: Ireland
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 05:07 PM

So far, we're killing more of our own than the Iraqis are. . . .

Is this some kind of gloat?

Subject: RE: BS: Counter demonstrations to support troops
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 06:46 PM

I don't think Don meant it as a gloat, Ireland. I think he meant it to point out that with all the scarey stuff that the Bush admibnistration has used to sell the war, we are now seeing that Iraq's military is indeed very, very weak. Just as lots of us have been saying. All this scare of Weapons of Mass Destruction and here more American and Brits have been killed in a single helicopter accident. Meanwhile, anyone looking at the television today must have some comprehension that a lot of Iraqis have died and a lot more will.

This is not a war at all because war implies fighting. There is little fight to it. This is a showcasing of US might. Iraq's military is grossly overmatched. The most difficult part of this thing will be the "policing" of Baghdad where pockets of resistence will be difficult to root out.

But, contrary to the fact the the US will come up with some WMD evidence (even if they have to fabricate it) it sure looks very much as the PR to sell this *thing*, was just that...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Counter demonstrations to support troops
From: artbrooks
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 06:50 PM

Bobert, I hope that you're right (for a change...*BG*) and the US Congress has the cohones to use the word "impeach" if it turns out that there never were any WMDs.

Subject: RE: BS: Counter demonstrations to support troops
From: michaelr
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 07:45 PM

Sorry Doug -- I had you confused with another Mudcatter, whose pictures show him in a Civil War uniform.

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: BS: Counter demonstrations to support troops
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 08:38 PM

No, Ireland, it was not any kind of "gloat."

I am opposed to this war, but as you may well comprehend by reading my posts, I do have a great deal of concern for the members of our Armed Forces. I object strenuously to their being put in harm's way for no good cause, but the idea that I am gloating over their deaths is. . . . Well, I won't take offense because you don't know me. I'll just explain that it was not a gloat, it was in the nature of a weary sigh.

What a needless waste!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Counter demonstrations to support troops
From: Troll
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 11:21 PM

Bobert, please explain the Scuds that have been fired into Kuwait in the last 24 hours. Iraq was not supposed to have any. Saddam said so.
The reason the resistance has been sporadic is that the elite units of Saddams army are in and around Baghdad, not down in the south around Basra. And of course the Iraqi army is grossly overmatched. What the hell do you think this is, a western where the good guy goes out to meet the bad guy all alone because it wouldn't be fair otherwise? Saddam only has 50,000 men under arms so that's all we'll send?
Get Real.
as far as the old accusation that we'll find WMDs even if we have to plant the evidence, there are tons of anthrax that were found after the Gulf War. Even Blix admitted that they have found absolutely no evidence that it was destroyed. What does Saddam need to do, blow up your house before you wil accept the fact that he is a danger to the world?
Or are you so blinded by your personal animus toward George Bush that you will refuse to believe any evidence that might show that his decision was based on valid assumptions?

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Counter demonstrations to support troops
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 11:34 PM

Beautifully put, as well, Penny. It is good to give such thoughts an "airing" for too many people never think of what have been lost, along with the physical bodies, as you point out.

StevetheOrc, well said. I agree.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Counter demonstrations to support troops
From: InOBU
Date: 22 Mar 03 - 07:36 AM

Dear Troll:
I am no fan of Sadam Husain, but REALLY! You are offended because a government lied about its military capability? A pal of mine in law school uncovered and sued the US governement over our nerve gas production that we are not supposed to have. We just murdered six suspects in Yemin, something not provided for under cour constitution or international law... wait I misspoke, it is found under our constitution, it is a high crime and misdeminor for which the president should be impeached... so the moral indignation is a bit much. We just invaded a nation who has made no military incursions against us, or any neighbor recently, and we are shocked that they make a token effort fighting back? AND Please don't say we are doing it for the Kurds, who we just opened the way to be conquored by the Turks (a peaceful and chearful bunch of people)
Cheers
Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Counter demonstrations to support troops
From: InOBU
Date: 22 Mar 03 - 07:40 AM

Re Turkey... where are Oliver and Hardy to say, "It is another fine mess you've gotten us into!"

Subject: RE: BS: Counter demonstrations to support troops
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Mar 03 - 07:49 AM

troll:

The US has said all along that Iraq had SCUD missles. I never thought they were an issue since the US has sold this war in the premise of the following three scarey weapons: nuclear, chemical and biological. Not SCUD's. Think NBC here if that makes it easier to keep the reasons'de jour in mind. Nuclear (N).... Biological (B) and Chemical (C).... NBC.

Now that's what the war was sold, for those who bought!

I didn't and most of the world didn't!

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Counter demonstrations to support troops
From: Ireland
Date: 22 Mar 03 - 08:16 AM

Now that's what the war was sold, for those who bought!

I didn't and most of the world didn't!

I do not buy it either,I do take offence at people pouring scorn on the military,they have no option,if the military was a democracy we would be in trouble. Are people going to say they did not feel a little bit more secure when the troops patrolled the streets after the Sept 11 attack?

We have to look on the military as a tool at the disposal of the government, not attack the individual components of the tool, by all means as StevetheOrc says slag off the politicos and there ilk who started this but leave the kids alone.

It is bad enough for the loved ones of those who have died, I believe they honestly thought they were serving their country, by doing what they were ordered to do, and that takes courage.

Don I apologise if I offended you, Lupes would that go against your opinion of the military, albeit I'm ex army, but I still apologise. The armed forces are not the arseholes some make them out to be, and I will not apologise for answering such crappy claims.

Daylia any chance of answering my questions, or is it not as straight forward as you would like to think.

Subject: RE: BS: Counter demonstrations to support troops
From: artbrooks
Date: 22 Mar 03 - 09:38 AM

According to US military reports, as passed along by CNN and MSNBC, the missiles that have been shot are a combination of Al-Samoud 2s (which the Iraqis were in the process of destroying when the war began) and a shorter ranged weapon. There have been no verified reports yet of SCUDs being fired.