Folk Music on BBC Radio 3 Now

Subject: BBC Radio 3 English Music night tonight!
From: treewind
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 01:07 PM

It's Tonight - don't forget!

A Place Called England

"Fiona Talkington presents an examination of the state of English folk and traditional music live from BBC Birmingham. A feast of live music includes performances from Waterson:Carthy, Oysterband, John Spiers and Jim Moray. There are also expert personal insights including a special contribution from June Tabor on love lyrics. All the live music will be available here soon after the show."

An hour and a half to go!
(getting my minidiscs ready....)

Anahata

Subject: RE: BBC radio 3 English Music night tonight!
From: Ed.
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 02:35 PM

Just started. The first listener's comment read out, was from a certain Malcolm Douglas...

Subject: Folk Music on BBC Radio 3 Now
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 02:37 PM

a special night of folk music, its just started and is on all night.

Subject: RE: Folk Music on BBC Radio 3 Now
From: greg stephens
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 02:43 PM

First blood to Malcolm Douglas. the boy done good!!!

Subject: RE: Folk Music on BBC Radio 3 Now
From: Ed.
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 02:52 PM

Just to remind non UK people, it can be listened to online here

Subject: RE: Folk Music on BBC Radio 3 Now
From: greg stephens
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 03:17 PM

45 minutes in before they dared play a traditional recording! Are they scared of folk music?

Subject: RE: Folk Music on BBC Radio 3 Now
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 04:03 PM

They probably think that no one will listen unless it's made "relevant" by a modern re-interpretation. Actually, they opened with Norma Waterson, and I think she sang a traditional piece; the shock of hearing Fiona Talkington quote me straight afterwards rather drove it out of my head. I'll have to listen to that bit again later.

Georgina Boyes gave poor old Cecil Sharp rather a hard time, I thought; even her praise was grudging. It's particularly unfair of a modern, university-trained folklorist to criticise him for not doing things the way they're done now. Had he been born a century later, I expect that he might have met with less qualified approval from her; though they probably wouldn't have liked each other, having I suspect too many character traits in common.

Jim Moray sounds pleasant enough, but I wouldn't exactly describe him as ground-breaking. We were doing those sorts of things to traditional songs thirty years ago, so I'm not sure why he's there; perhaps because he's a young up-and-coming.

Oh, second thoughts; I don't like his Week Before Easter very much. A bit thin, hurried and strangled-sounding. Not a patch on Pete Morton's False Bride to my mind, not to mention the Coppers set that he said he'd based it on...

Subject: RE: Folk Music on BBC Radio 3 Now
From: SussexCarole
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 04:04 PM

Thanks Ed couldn't find it on the radio

Subject: RE: Folk Music on BBC Radio 3 Now
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 04:20 PM

I'm looking forward to Boden and Squires.

I just think it's amazing that Radio 3 are broadcasting this - and how little appreciation there is of the shortcomings in broadcasting traditional music that it was programmed directly against the Mike Harding show on Radio 2.

I got home late so haven't heard all of it - has anyone mentioned the Licensing Bill yet?

Kitty

Subject: RE: Folk Music on BBC Radio 3 Now
From: John Routledge
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 04:25 PM

Miner's life now on Very interesting version.

Subject: RE: Folk Music on BBC Radio 3 Now
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 04:26 PM

Not so far.

Subject: RE: Folk Music on BBC Radio 3 Now
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 04:27 PM

That was in answer to Kitty, of course.

Subject: RE: Folk Music on BBC Radio 3 Now
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 04:29 PM

I need some Guinness, not sure why but every time I hear folkk musiv I get a weird craving for Guinness!

Subject: RE: Folk Music on BBC Radio 3 Now
From: greg stephens
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 04:31 PM

Sure,Malolm D, Norma W was up first. My point was that I would have liked some hardline actual trad folk, even if only a snippet, before we hit revival icons.It was indeed 45 minis(I timed it) before we had he real thing. I think a BBC American folk music programme would not make you wait 45 mins before you got to Leadbelly or the chaingangs or Charlie Poole or whatever. A boat skipper said to me once, which I always remember, "its not on the telly because they're scared of it".
   And if you want another a beef, all the instrumental so far is Son of Southern Dance Music.There are other ways to play tunes. My grandfather was just as good as any body else's granfather, even if he lived in Cumberland.

Subject: RE: Folk Music on BBC Radio 3 Now
From: GUEST,MCP
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 04:42 PM

I've e-mailed my threepenworth asking for a long program of recordings of (earlier) traditional singers (as opposed to the current crop). (And supporting academic teaching of folk music).

Mick

Subject: RE: Folk Music on BBC Radio 3 Now
From: Ed.
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 04:52 PM

What was the Harry Cox song in Tony Engle's piece?

I assume it's something off 'Voice of the People' (which I've never had the money to buy)

'Twas cracking anyway, and would like to hear it again.

Subject: RE: Folk Music on BBC Radio 3 Now
From: GUEST,MCP
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 04:55 PM

I think that's what he started his piece with with, but I was involved in some cooking at the time and wasn't paying full attention at that moment.

Mick

Subject: RE: Folk Music on BBC Radio 3 Now
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 05:03 PM

True enough, Greg (earlier post). I wasn't sure if you meant traditional material or performance. I suspect that the radio people might not see a signifant distinction between Norma and Harry Cox, except that she's alive and he isn't. She's rather on the cusp, perhaps, coming from a background where traditional music was normal in the family, but having made her name in the revival field. I do see what you mean, though, and I don't disagree. The emphasis on Southern repertoires and styles would be partly down to the people involved, I expect (Ian Anderson for a start). Boka Halat turned out to be hardly different from a previous project, "Urban Folk".

Shirley Collins made an interesting point; the majority of the younger players seem to be learning their material from records made by Revival performers, many of whom recorded drastically-altered forms of songs as found in tradition, in styles that had very little in common with those that had gone before. Essentially, what they are doing is just as much out-of-context as were the orchestral arrangements of Vaughan Williams or George Butterworth. The difference is that Vaughan Williams and Butterworth knew that; several people who have spoken on the programme so far seem to think that the Revival styles of the 1960s and 70s reflect some "ancient" idiom. Perhaps to them it really does seem that long ago!

Subject: RE: Folk Music on BBC Radio 3 Now
From: Nemesis
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 05:29 PM

Well, I'm bored stupid by it .. too much talking (spoiled by better debates here on Mudcat) and not enough music!

Subject: RE: Folk Music on BBC Radio 3 Now
From: GUEST,MCP
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 05:29 PM

A similar point to Shirley's was made at The National (UK festival) by Jeff Davis (IIRC) in an American context (or in a general contect but with American examples). That you needed to go back to the source singers and learn what they were doing vocally to understand the possibilities (If I understood correctly, he favoured trying to learn as exact an imitation of the singers as you could, in order to appreciate the details of the style. This is pretty much how jazz players learn their art too; there are stories of those who insisted you be able to sing the improvisation of earlier masters before being allowed to play them on your instrument).

Mick

Subject: RE: Folk Music on BBC Radio 3 Now
From: greg stephens
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 05:41 PM

I withdraw my complaint that the instrumental is all Son of Southern Dance dance Music. We've now had the usual dollop of Son of Edinburgh Session, triplets and bouncing bow fiddle. still be nice to hear a fair bit of English dance music, though. And if you think I'm speaking as a boring old fart traddie, please remember I'm a hardline avant garde weirdo who was working with Afro percussion fusion synthesiser blah blah in the 70's: but at least I had an idea what the English bits of the fusion sounded like.

Subject: RE: Folk Music on BBC Radio 3 Now
From: nutty
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 05:43 PM

The problem with that approach is that many of the source singers were a ripe old age when the collections were made. I have always contended that they way you sing a song when you are 80yrs old is not neccessarily the way you would sing it at 20.

Subject: RE: Folk Music on BBC Radio 3 Now
From: nutty
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 05:47 PM

BTW ....... I was replying to Guest MCP's comments

Subject: RE: Folk Music on BBC Radio 3 Now
From: Santa
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 05:47 PM

I can listen to music on CDs anytime: to hear the performers talking and discussing is wonderful. For my money they could cut the singing in half and the tunes almost completely.   The one part that could have been more informative was where Tim Van Eyken and Fiona tried to get musicians talking about what made English music distinctive, but it was sidetracked immediately.

However, if you were missing traditional songs, you now have Shirley Collins.

Subject: RE: Folk Music on BBC Radio 3 Now
From: BanjoRay
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 05:55 PM

I'd forgotten how great Shirley Collins is - her feel for an English song is unmatchable. Maybe I'm biased because she's a banjo player...
Ray

Subject: RE: Folk Music on BBC Radio 3 Now
From: Ed.
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 05:57 PM

Sorry to repeat myself, but I'd really like to know what the Harry Cox song was. Yes, I should have listened more closely, but I got distracted.

Subject: RE: Folk Music on BBC Radio 3 Now
From: greg stephens
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 05:59 PM

I'm not missing traditional songs, I have been talking about traditional singers. Yes, Shirley Collins is on, and I love her singing. But there is a qualitative difference between what she does and what the traditional singers do, which is perfectly obvious. I just feel this programme should reflect both strands, and perhaps as it's billed as a one-off look at English music, it should bend a little more to the tradition.

Subject: RE: Folk Music on BBC Radio 3 Now
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 06:02 PM

Mick's right about the Jeff Davis session at the National a few years ago, when he advocated imitating the source singer. I thought this interesting because I've always tried to sing my own version, not copy someone else's.

Subject: RE: Folk Music on BBC Radio 3 Now
From: GUEST,MCP
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 06:02 PM

nutty

If that was re my last post about Jeff Davis, I agree that (in general) 80 year old singers are not usually the best exemplars. Jeff Davis had some very good recordings of American singers (some of the Warner recordings among them), and there are extant a great many recordings of English traditional singers who were still capable of giving very good performances when recorded.

(I'm not sure I'd want to hear version of singers aged 20 compared to when aged 30, 40 or 50. While technically singers may fade with age, interpretation generally improves. Norma mentioned the increase of sessions in recent years and I see this as one of the sources of good young instrumental players - you can play on every tune and use all the time to hone your skills. But singers get a look in more rarely - they don't get the same practice time in sessions. I think singers have a longer maturation time than instrumentalists. However, I try never to get involved in matters of opinion - I find it wastes too much time on matters that have too many equally valid standpoints, so I think I've already gone too far down this road).

Mick

Subject: RE: Folk Music on BBC Radio 3 Now
From: greg stephens
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 06:04 PM

The've had fun having a go at Vaughan Williams and C Sharpe, but most of the music heard here(including the music I make) comes more properly into that category. I like White Stripe and Kurt Cobain. They were turned on by Leadbelly. Not by Peter Paul and Mary and the Kingston Trio, or Spider John Koerner, or me or Martin Carthy. Long live folk music,and let's, for God's sake, make sure they get a chance to hear it.

Subject: RE: Folk Music on BBC Radio 3 Now
From: greg stephens
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 06:07 PM

Norma waterson has just said what turned her on was Margaret Barry and Walter Pardon. See what I mean? Took this evening's programming nearly an hour before it got to music from that area.

Subject: RE: Folk Music on BBC Radio 3 Now
From: GUEST,MCP
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 06:12 PM

Herga Kitty

The point of Jeff's talk was not to not do your own version (if that makes sense). The point of the imitation was to understand what the traditional singers were doing before doing your own thing. It's the same as classical musicians or jazz musicians listening to and copying earlier players and imitating them to learn how great players treated the material, as a precursor to making your own treatment. I'm sure Jeff wouldn't want anyone to spend their life being a Frank Profitt tribute (one-person) band. (Though it wouldn't be the first time I've heard a singer in a folk club and known immediately which singer a singer has taken a song from - it takes time to distance yourself from your source and develop you own voice).

Mick

Subject: RE: Folk Music on BBC Radio 3 Now
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 06:26 PM

I know. But some singers never get past the copy, especially if someone like June Tabor has sung the "definitive" version. And apart from Harry Cox (and other East Anglian singers) who inspired singers 30 or 40 years ago it seems mainly to be the revival singers who leave the indelible stamp. You can hear echoes of June, Tony Rose and Bert Lloyd....

Subject: RE: Folk Music on BBC Radio 3 Now
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 06:29 PM

It's not about imitating source-singers; it's about understanding what they were doing, and building a personal approach based on that. Many of us will have started out copying the styles of revival performers, some of whom had taken the trouble to understand what they were doing; some of whom had not. We ought to try to move beyond that, if we're serious about it, in order to find our own voices. I wouldn't like to think that June Tabor has recorded a "definitive" arrangement of any traditional song!

Interestingly, the programme has just has its first message complaining about "the Folk Police", unsurprisingly from someone who doesn't see why she should be expected actually to listen to traditional singers before trying her hand at their songs. Gawd Strewth. The Instant Gratification Culture strikes again.

It's perfectly true that singers recorded in old age are unlikely to be at their best; but there will still be recognisable echoes of what was, in what remains. We have to do the best we can with what we have. The mistake is to assume, as so many people have, that (for example) Harry Cox recorded in old age is either typical of how English folk song sounded, or how it ought to sound. We have to listen to what he's doing, and consider how he would have sounded in his best days (probably in his 40s; there are a few recordings of him from that period, though most are later). In his youth his songs were recorded on paper rather than tape, but his reputation attests to a very considerable ability, and there were clearly many more like him. It's still evident in the recordings of his later years, though there are plenty of people who have neither the knowledge nor the imagination to see that.

The fact that, by contrast, traditional Scottish and Irish singers have often been recorded at the height of their powers, tends to distort the perception of English singing very much to its disadvantage. The apparent difference in quality is in reality simply a demographic accident.

That inability to make the requisite jump of imagination has led to a great many misconceptions. One is the tendency people have to imagine that the nasal style affected by revival singers (mainly in the '50s and '60s, though it still lingers) is somehow typical of English song. It isn't. It was borrowed in the early years of the mid-20th century revival, largely by people trying to copy Irish and Traveller singing styles.

Subject: RE: Folk Music on BBC Radio 3 Now
From: nutty
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 06:33 PM

Mick .... I'm confused

If you don't want to involve yourself in matters of opinion .. why are you posting to site such as this.

Surely what you are doing is posting YOUR opinion ..... which we are expected to give due consideration.

Subject: RE: Folk Music on BBC Radio 3 Now
From: greg stephens
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 06:35 PM

Now we're on the University of English folk music. God, what would happen if some of those students heard a few folk musicians.But I think ther is quite an efficient filtering sytem.

Subject: RE: Folk Music on BBC Radio 3 Now
From: nutty
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 06:36 PM

That's an excellent summary ... Malcolm

Subject: RE: Folk Music on BBC Radio 3 Now
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 06:40 PM

Hmm.. the students don't seem to have a very strong grasp of history, do they? Mind you, neither did I at their age. Fortunately, nobody interviewed me on the radio!

Aha; Eliza is just now dealing with the "Folk Police" silliness. Good for her.

Subject: RE: Folk Music on BBC Radio 3 Now
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 06:42 PM

Malcolm

You are of course right about definitive versions etc. Also about English source singers mostly being recorded when they were past their prime. But some of June's early renditions of eg The Lover's Ghost and Sheath and Knife were so powerful that they really stamped her interpretation onto other singers, (and in the case of Sheath and Knife, about 35 years ago,including Tony Rose).

Kitty

Subject: RE: Folk Music on BBC Radio 3 Now
From: nutty
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 06:47 PM

But Hille ...also take on board Nic Jones' recent admission about writing the tunes to such as Tom O'Bedlam and passing them off as traditional.

Subject: RE: Folk Music on BBC Radio 3 Now
From: greg stephens
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 06:48 PM

Well the finale was the original Brigg fair and then a bit of Vaughan Williams style choral stuff from the students at Newcastle. Was that meant to be an ironic look at the 20's approach to folk song collecting, or the vibrant relevant future? You tell me.

Subject: RE: Folk Music on BBC Radio 3 Now
From: nutty
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 06:48 PM

sorry ...I meant Kitty .... I'm getting tired

Subject: RE: Folk Music on BBC Radio 3 Now
From: GUEST,MCP
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 06:50 PM

nutty

If you look at my posting history on Mudcat you'll see that it relates almost entirely to matters of fact on songs, singers or music; I post words, I post tunes, I post information about people or places. I come here for the useful nuggest of information I find and that's why I still come here and post. I don't post in BS threads and I try to avoid getting involved in matters of opinion - there are too many opinions, everyone has them, mostly people don't change and I don't want to get involved in discussions of them.

Nonetheless, I naturally I have my own opinions, but mostly try to keep them to myself. Unfortunately fuelled by the radio 3 evening, and (not Guiness but) a weird craving for wine, I got carried away and let an opinion slip. It is my opinion, but have no wish for anyone to give it any consideration whatsoever. I have no wish for anyone else to agree with it and I don't mind if anyone disagrees with it either; it's just an opinion. I already regret writing it; please disregard it, or better still have a JC delete it.


Mick

Subject: RE: Folk Music on BBC Radio 3 Now
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 06:57 PM

What Kitty says is quite true, but it's something we need to be moving beyond, I think.

Interestingly, the Newcastle students have just sung a choral arrangement of Brigg Fair which has a lot more in common with Percy Grainger's arrangement than with Joseph Taylor's set. It even includes the extra lines that Grainger grafted on from Henry Burstow's Low Down in the Broom (an unrelated song) to fill the gaps.

Just now listening to journalist Peter Paphides' comments, and am rather taken aback by his ignorance and presumption. He needs to do a little more research.

Subject: RE: Folk Music on BBC Radio 3 Now
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 06:58 PM

It appears that the Panel agrees. I wonder who booked the twerp?

Subject: RE: Folk Music on BBC Radio 3 Now
From: greg stephens
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 07:12 PM

Well I put in a serious plea for multi-culturalism on the Radio 3 thread leading up to this(based firmly on English music) so the finale was pretty appropriate and I was very happy with it. An old hymn, written by a Portsmouth woman(Sarah Doudney), music by an American composer(Ira Sankey), inspired by a legendary Bahamian guitarist(Joseph Spense) and covered by the Grateful Dead and the Incredible Sting Band, not to mention the Boat Band and the Zimbabwe Boys.

Subject: RE: Folk Music on BBC Radio 3 Now
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 07:18 PM

Malcolm

I hope you're coming to the National and we can chat about the way forward (to move beyond)in the bar. I had an interesting conversation with Jane Burgess in the bar at the National a few years ago, about the discrepancy between young musicians (who seem prodigiously talented and technically brilliant)and young singers (who are mainly conspicuous by their absence or who need time to mature).

Kitty

PS Apologies to any brilliant young singers I haven't met yet.

Subject: RE: Folk Music on BBC Radio 3 Now
From: greg stephens
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 07:20 PM

OK we've all heard it. Overall opinions? I'd say, for doing it, 10/10. How they did it,2/10.

Subject: RE: Folk Music on BBC Radio 3 Now
From: RolyH
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 07:20 PM

A good program.

Some talked sense.Some talked rubbish.Too tired now to sort out who was doing what.Will have to listen again.

Ed,the Harry Cox song was Georgie

Subject: RE: Folk Music on BBC Radio 3 Now
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 07:30 PM

Roly H
Oh thanks, because I heard the Harry Cox transmission and it was a great rendition and I'd registered that it was not the "Geordie"
version in the Penguin book of folk songs.
Kitty

Subject: RE: Folk Music on BBC Radio 3 Now
From: vectis
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 08:00 PM

At least the BBC have recognised that folk exists on Wednesday nights.

Subject: RE: Folk Music on BBC Radio 3 Now
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 08:00 PM

I haven't been to the National for years, but I'll get there again eventually. Too broke this year, unfortunately. The main reason the young players are technically so advanced is that they started a lot younger than we did; many encouraged almost from birth by parents who were already involved in the music in one way or another. That's not to detract from their obvious abilities, but a lot of them did have an existing, supportive context to develop in that we had to do without.

For all that, I don't think that most of them have a greater maturity in their playing than do the singers; it's more that, with instrumental music, it's easier to mistake polished technique for understanding. Some of them will do very well indeed, but I hope they'll be the ones who have the patience to learn their craft without hurrying too much.

In one respect, at least, they're at a disadvantage; although they've attained a higher degree of polish in their playing at a much earlier age than did most of the previous generation, it's also the case that, a generation ago, it was possible to define a genuinely innovative style at quite a young age (Carthy and Jones both did it); they, however, will have to live in the shadow of their predecessors. Some will get around that by going for iconoclasm, but that's a road that only exceptionally talented (or exceptionally lucky) folk can get away with (and they won't be the ones Peter Paphides came up with!)

Tonight's broadcast only confirmed for me that, although young people are producing a lot of fine music at the moment, it really isn't significantly different from what was being done when I was their age; though they are doing it with greater technical skill than we were able to.

That's as it should be, perhaps; it's a pity, though, that so many journalists and similar media pontificators insist on pretending that it's all new and cutting-edge; they are perhaps too wedded to the commercially-generated "youth culture" that dominates certain other musical genres to be able to understand that traditional music is just that; although it changes with time, those changes are always provisional until they are rejected or assimilated. Anyone who says "such-and-such is the future" or, for that matter, "such-and-such is not the future" is over-reaching themselves.

I'd like to think, though, that the future will be based on a proper understanding of the past. The mid-20th century folk revival has thrown up a lot of things that are not yet part of a definable tradition; they may become so, but impatience or a desperate search for novelty or coolness won't decide that; only time will do it.

Subject: RE: Folk Music on BBC Radio 3 Now
From: Ralphie
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 09:24 PM

Blimey!!
This has certainly woken you all up....and Jolly good job too.
Don't forget to register your comments (both pro and anti) to the Late Junction site at the Beeb.
No Comment...No more programmes. That simple.
I was at Maida Vale doing a band for Peelie, so haven't heard the show yet. I hope my mate recorded it for me. will find out on Friday.
Off to enjoy what's left of my birthday now. (NO..Don't start a bloody thread!!)
Thanks to all, for the interest shown in the programme.
Regards Ralphie

Subject: RE: Folk Music on BBC Radio 3 Now
From: GUEST,Santa
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 07:38 AM

I apologise for having listed my comments on last night's broadcast in the other thread.... However, there was one question raised my good wife last night, which I find echoes here today:

If there is no Folk Police/Establishment, why is it a bad thing just to sing a song, without having paid some kind of apprenticeship?

I see above complaints about having to listen to some original before singing a song, about instant gratification culture, about heaven help students should they meet a real folk singer.....

As for the last point - come on! Sandra Kerr, Alistair Anderson and Karen Tweed teach these students. Not real folk singers/musicians? Must be a funny definition of "real".

Subject: RE: Folk Music on BBC Radio 3 Now
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 08:25 AM



I don't think anyone is saying you have to, but its a very good idea to have spent time studying the roots and watching how others perform before you do so yourself, for the same reason as its a good idea to have learnt the basics of plumbing before you decide to replace the central heating boiler yourself.   No one says you can't leap straight in, but you'll probably do a better job with little more patient an approach.

Subject: RE: Folk Music on BBC Radio 3 Now
From: GUEST,Eliza C
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 10:06 AM

DMcG,
Hear hear. Besides, it is very hard to define what the whole of the folk scene thinks, because there are so many opinions on the subject. I find that the majority of performers and audience care little how much anyone has studied, so I reckon it is OK to express the opinion that it is better to study, so everyone can think about it for a bit if they care to...
Also there is the idea that most folk music (trad music, anyway)is about continuity, and it can only enrich your understanding of the weight of experience behind the material and the old performers if you listen to all the generations available to you, including your own. Of course you don't have to.
cheers,
ec

Subject: RE: Folk Music on BBC Radio 3 Now
From: greg stephens
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 10:19 AM

Studying the material is a wonderful thing to do in itself, there are so many layers and they go back to the year dot. I get a bottle of gin most years and put it in a jar with some brown sugar, and bung in berries of all kinds as and when they are in season. Then at Christmas you drink this gorgeous reddy-purple nectar, and every mouthful has your whole diary of the summer in it. You dont get that in an ordinary drink. That's what folk-songs and tunes are like, theyve got all that stuff put into them, and it's all there for you when you play it.
EC: I want to talk Kurds with you, would you get in touch if you have a minute(and I have a couple of good tunes for you too). My email is boatband(at)cwctv.net

Subject: RE: Folk Music on BBC Radio 3 Now
From: Sooz
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 01:38 PM

Why did they call the programme "A place called England"? I didn't hear all of it as I was out hearing live music at a gig, but I don't suppose they played Maggie Holland's excellent song with the same title. Oops - its a contemporary song (shock horror) but likely to be part of tomorrows tradition. Evolution can't just stop!

Subject: RE: Folk Music on BBC Radio 3 Now
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 02:02 PM

They played quite a bit of contemporary material; some relevant, some not. Maggie Holland's song was included, of course, sung by June Tabor if I remember correctly. Essentially, it was a discussion of tradition, so it wouldn't have been very useful to have included too many modern songs that may or may not become part of a tradition at some unknown point in the future. On the whole, the parts where people speculated about possible future developments were the least successful, I thought.

Subject: RE: Folk Music on BBC Radio 3 Now
From: Sooz
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 04:13 PM

I stand corrected - I did record the programme so I'll listen to the rest now.

Subject: RE: Folk Music on BBC Radio 3 Now
From: Santa
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 04:57 PM

DMcG: I agree with you and Eliza entirely, except for the one point - fairly clearly some (only some) people are saying that you do HAVE to - and it is nothing to do with learning to perform per se. Criticism was expressed of someone (implicitly young? newcomer, anyway) hearing a traditional folk song and getting up and singing it themselves without having studied how the traditional folk singers sang it. No, I don't have the programme recorded to pick the bones over, and don't want to make too big a thing of a small piece of the whole - but reread Malcolm and Greg's postings above.

I thought one of Martin Carthy's comments went right to the heart of the matter - that it doesn't matter what people do to the songs, because the songs were still there and couldn't be damaged. So let people come to the songs and sing them - they can discover the joys of the history afterwards.