BS: War--Really Began Now

Subject: BS: War--Really Began Now
From: Sorcha
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 12:00 AM

I am in tears and just sick about this. We all knew it was probably inevitable, but hoped anyway.......

Just what does Bush hope to accomplish with this? Iraq is, after all, a Fundamentalist Muslim Country, and we will probably be only exchanging Saddam for another just like him. Unless Iraq turns out to be another American Protectorate......Imperialism/Colonialism at its best.......Amerraq...........right.

I can only hope not too many are killed and that it is over soon.

Oh,by the way, is this a "real" war, like WW1 and WWII or is it an armed conflict like VietNam? What does Congress say? Or did they have a "say"?

Subject: RE: BS: War--Really Began Now
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 12:07 AM

Sorcha-Iraq is a secular country, one of the few in the region. None of the Muslim fundamentalists are as repressive and brutal as the Ba'ath. It's not officially a war, and we'll probably never declare war again, now that Congress has ceded that power to the executive branch.

Subject: RE: BS: War--Really Began Now
From: JudyR
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 12:14 AM

You and me both. I was crying, too. I have asked myself so many questions -- what in god's name we really want. Does anybody actually believe this is a humanitarian mission? Or that Saddam has anything to do with Bin Laden?

And on a board that has too many flag wavers, I was derided for being "soft." What does an Iraqi mother tell her children about why the Americans are coming to hurt them?

Subject: RE: BS: War--Really Began Now
From: Sorcha
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 12:19 AM

I just wish I knew what Bush hopes to accomplish from this, aside from the Homeland Security Act (to turn the US into a police state). I just can't see any other reason for it. Sorry, Doug R and others.

Subject: RE: BS: War--Really Began Now
From: Amos
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 12:37 AM

Sorcha:

There are other reasons, but they are so problematic as to be difficult to see. I hate this. It wastes so much. All I can hope is that the resurrection of Iraq becomes a reality.

Hugs to ya,


A

Subject: RE: BS: War--Really Began Now
From: DougR
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 12:38 AM

Sorcha: don't apologize to me! Apologize to the Iraqi people because diplomatic efforts to settle this situation without war was not successful. I truly believe the Iraqi people will be better off when this is over. Don't blame Bush, Blair, or the leaders of the other thirty some odd countries that are bringing about regime change in Iraq. Blame the person responsible. Saddam Hussien.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: War--Really Began Now
From: khandu
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 12:41 AM

It is a big picture of smaller pictures I see far too often. In day-to-day life I see so many inflicting deep harm upon their fellow humans, many times, upon their own families. The lack of human understanding and compassion fueled by so many different self-serving/self-destructive entanglements seems to always end up wreaking havoc in the lives of everyone involved. And, in the big picture, who knows how far that havoc will reach?

It is a grievous thing.

Surely, there must be path, as obstacle-ridden as it may be, to Peace.

Ken

Subject: RE: BS: War--Really Began Now
From: GUEST,clint keller
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 02:03 AM

I think that anything that happens to Saddam will be far too good for him, but saying that it's his fault we launched "the first war without direct provocation in our nation's history,*" is granting him a lot of power over our country.

Like Ollie said to Stan, "See what you made me do?"

And who will be to blame for making us attack them next ? Those other Axis of Evil guys, N. Korea and Iran? Our allies Kuwait and Saudi Arabia? Why not? All those and more are oppressive governments long overdue for regime changes. How much of the world will we be forced to fight?

I'm for getting rid of all those bad guys, but not at the cost of our traditional American principles. To become monstrous because one is fighting monsters is to lose the battle immediately.

clint

* in the words of Dana Milbank of the Washington Post

Subject: RE: BS: War--Really Began Now
From: mg
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 02:43 AM

I think it is a humanitarian mission, although I don't think that it the primary goal, which I think is, rightly or wrongly, to make it safer for those in America and the rest of the world. I think there is a large humanitarian component but that is not driving it. I think when it is over, hopefully soon, with a minimum of casualties on both sides, and people can live in decency, we will see things more clearly. Of course, anything can happen and be unleashed. I can't predict it. But I think motives are good here. Mine are. I am not after their oil. mg

Subject: RE: BS: War--Really Began Now
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 03:09 AM

Tonight when I saw the night vision cameras, the scenes from 12 years ago came back so vividly it was almost like this was just a continuation. And suddenly I realized that this war was inevitable, that Bush jr picked up the banner from Bush sr; I'm sure he planned it from the start. Someday he will weep and say, But I promised my Dad! There's an inevitability to all this that boggles the mind.

What I'd like to know is how in the world did we, as a nation, allow this man to become president???? Was it also inevitable?

Like everyone else, I'm just sick tonight. But angry too.

Subject: RE: BS: War--Really Began Now
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 08:03 AM

Saddam Hussein missed his chance, all right. If he had given up power and moved elsewhere he could have looted the country's treasury AND become a martyr, giving it all up so that his country could have peace.
He could have then been a hero to many and spared them much death and destruction.

(Please note that I am not in any way discussing the "rightness" or "wrongness" of what the US, etc. are doing.)

This cannot be a war, as it was not constitutionally declared. Congress seems to be composed of gutless wonders these days -- and we call them "leaders."

Subject: RE: BS: War--Really Began Now
From: MMario
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 08:22 AM

According to the news there are two *DIVISIONS* of Iraqi preparing to surrender without firing...

Subject: RE: BS: War--Really Began Now
From: mooman
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 08:25 AM

Very sad and very angry.

As the Scottish MP George Galloway said some 6 months ago, this must be more than Osama Bin Laden could ever have wished for...a US-dominated force invading an Arab country without broad international support or sanction. I hate to think what the consequences will be in igniting fundamentalist Moslem fury and acting as a recruiting call to terrorism in trouble spots all across the globe.

I read what Dr Blix had to say to BBC "Today" this morning and he is a very, very disappointed man.

All I can do now is to hope for a swift end to war, for minimum casualties and to express compassion for all who suffer.

A despondent moo

Subject: RE: BS: War--Really Began Now
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 08:34 AM

very despondent....yeah.........

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: War--Really Began Now
From: MarkS
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 08:59 AM

Let us all hope and pray that it is over quickly with a minimum of casualties

Subject: RE: BS: War--Really Began Now
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 09:00 AM

saying that it's his fault we launched "the first war without direct provocation in our nation's history,*" is granting him a lot of power over our country. [emphasis mine]

That's precisely why he's already half won this conflict; the U.S. by its actions is empowering him AND the next ten generations of terrorists.

And it will reap the whirlwind.

Subject: RE: BS: War--Really Began Now
From: alanabit
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 09:04 AM

Actually I was hoping for a couple more casualties. NO - not yet more people killed and mutilated. I was hoping that the political careers of those who so cold bloodedly initiated this war will become casualties. Otherwise ditto to Mooman's comments above.

Subject: RE: BS: War--Really Began Now
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 09:14 AM

I'm sorry alanabit.....To ruin a political career you have to do something seriously horrific, something that disgusts the constituency so much that you are lower than a snake's belly in a rut. Getting a blowjob and lying about it.......Now that's serious!!!

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: War--Really Began Now
From: Wolfgang
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 09:24 AM

There was a fine comment in my newspaper today: America, may we call you Empire now? by Marcia Pally. It is very long and a translation from English. I haven't found it to link, so if anyone finds it in one of your newspapers I'd appreciate a link here to the English version.

Another comment in a German magazine: Iraq is attacked not because it has weapons of mass destruction but because it has them not yet, at least not the ones the USA really fear. Every little (or big) despot will now learn the lesson: First get your WMDs (the big ones) and then confront the USA. If the USA really would fear that Saddam has already reliable missiles with atomic warheads that would go only as far as Israel they would have had second thoughts about the attack. This war may be the start of a new weapon race and the end of proliferation control.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: War--Really Began Now
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 09:52 AM

Or perhaps you could remain true to your beliefs and while supporting getting our troops home, you aren't afraid to call a spade a spade. I think that will ruin your political career. Here's what Dennis Kucinich, Congressional Rep from Ohio said yesterday:

"This is a sad day for America, the world community, and the people of Iraq. Tonight, I hope and pray for the safe return of our troops and the end to this unjustified war.

"President Bush has launched an unprovoked attack against another country. Iraq does not pose an imminent threat to the United States or any of its neighboring nations. Iraq was not responsible for the terrorist attacks of September 11. Tonight, President Bush has commanded U.S. forces to go to war in violation of American traditions of defensive war that have lasted since George Washington. This war is wrong; it violates the Constitution and international law"

Let's see how his career goes.........

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: War--Really Began Now
From: Deda
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 10:09 AM

Also praying for a quick end -- both to this unjustifiable war and to this monstrous administration.

Subject: RE: BS: War--Really Began Now
From: Ireland
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 10:18 AM

What about the reports that Iraq military are using weapons which they said they did not have?

Subject: RE: BS: War--Really Began Now
From: jeffp
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 10:24 AM

Haven't seen any of those - have you?

Subject: RE: BS: War--Really Began Now
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 10:27 AM

Spaw, another two who are doing the same are Daschle and Byrd. I sent them both emails of support and asked them to continue to speak out. They are both getting a LOT of flack, esp. from GOP members.

I hope someone can find an English version of the article Wolfgang noted. It is good to read the perspectives from around the world.

Sad, angry, frustrated, in despair, praying, giving thanks that it ends now, limiting my news to reading online, as hearing and seeing it make the headache and blood pressure worse.

How in hell, indeed, Ebbie, did that bastard get into office. We need that revolution my daughter has always predicted.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: War--Really Began Now
From: Ireland
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 10:29 AM

I heard reports on the news about such weapons being used,wondered if anyone knows if it is fact or fiction. Sort of justification for action taken, I think it was on the Fox news chnl.

Subject: RE: BS: War--Really Began Now
From: alanabit
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 01:54 PM

You are right 'Spaw. I will bet you that if I went around asking most Mudcatters to give public details about their last blow jobs, I would soon find my nose sticking out the other side of my head. We are now being told effectively, "Mind your own business", when we want to know the details of weapons of mass destruction which have been found. That's politics folks. Put your pecker in the wrong place and they can impeach you for telling lies about it - or telling the voyeuristic bastards where to put it. Drop tons of ordinance on an already defenceless and impoverished people and you can ensure your re-election - even in the face of higher unemployment, budget deficit and unemployment.

Subject: RE: BS: War--Really Began Now
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 02:06 PM

If its on FOX "News"- a wholly owned subsidiary of the Republican National CCommittee & with its record of wholesale fabrication of broadcast of unsubstantiated "facts"- I would go with fiction, Ireland. About this or about anything else.

Subject: RE: BS: War--Really Began Now
From: Willie-O
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 02:23 PM

Agree with you about Fox, Greg, but it appears pretty well substantiated that they fired a few Scuds into Kuwait to little effect. No chem/bio warheads, needless to say. (Of course, it's not what you'd call a 'free press' in northern Kuwait today.)

I read the report about the Iraqi divisions surrender several hours ago in Debka.com , a highly partisan Israeli political news site:
"DEBKAfile's Kuwait correspondent reports from sources with the US 3rd Infantry Division on the Kuwait-Iraq border: The surrender of the Iraqi 11th and 51st divisions is under negotiation with US military officers and is expected in the coming hours. The two divisions represent two-thirds of the Iraqi army in the south."

This was reported before the oilfield burning started, with a note that these divisions are assigned to protect the (unspecified) oilfields.

Check this out, its a weblog from a very perceptive young Baghdad resident. Where is Raed? Last updated a few hours ago.

Willie-O

Subject: RE: BS: War--Really Began Now
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 02:48 PM

Clint Keller, Greg F.-The Spanish-American War was just as unprovoked, and even more unjustified. We survived that one okay, so here's hoping we do it again.

Subject: RE: BS: War--Really Began Now
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 02:52 PM

Willie-O, thanks, very much, for that link. It is riveting.

Subject: RE: BS: War--Really Began Now
From: GUEST,clint keller
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 04:21 PM

Lurker:

Yeah, I thought about that after I said it. Then there was Vietnam, with the phony Gulf of Tonkin business, and the Mexican war -- "Polk's War" -- and I don't know what else.

I guess I just wanted to belong to a country that only shot in self- defense.

But we've always had that ideal, haven't we? Or has it all been hypocrisy? Decent people don't kill others because of what they might possibly do, do they?

Maybe I'm just an elderly innocent. Maybe we should go with the folk wisdom:
Why wait for the law? Let's string 'em up now.
Kill 'em all; let God sort 'em out.
If you see a guy walking down the street with a dog following him & carrying a guitar, arrest him. If he ain't done something he's going to.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: War--Really Began Now
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 04:54 PM

people don't kill others because of what they might possibly do, do they?

Sure they do- all the time. Its known as second degree murder or first degree manslaughter, depending upon circumstances.

Subject: RE: BS: War--Really Began Now
From: David Ingerson
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 04:59 PM

I sure hope this is wrong, because I'm already sick and sad and angry enough about the war. But I read an analysis reprinted in Utne Reader that if the United States can get control of Iraq's oil and can maintain strong influence over the oil in Kuwait, Qatar, and Venezuela, it might be able to destabalize OPEC or even render it impotent. The price of oil would become unregulated and plummet, allowing the oil magnates to reap huge(r) profits. In addition, the united states could control the flow of oil to Europe (some troglodites on this side of the pond see a united Europe as a potential enemy) and it would ruin the Russian economy which is apparently propped up with international oil sales.

Then we would show the whole world who is boss--and how democracy REALLY works.

It makes me sick and ashamed.

David

Subject: RE: BS: War--Really Began Now
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 05:08 PM

David, David-

This has been the BuShite agenda from the get-go. Do you suppose its an accident that Baby Bush and most of the cabinet- Rice, Cheney Etc. are oil company executives or CEO's of companies poised to make a fortune out of the war and its aftermath...?

Subject: RE: BS: War--Really Began Now
From: Willie-O
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 05:13 PM

Yeah, imagine, somebody just like us, tapping away at his keyboard in between trips to the shelter or whatever. Hope he's able to keep doing that in the days ahead.

W-O
should be writing a user manual. instead I've been looking at stuff like that all day and making notes about the most intriguing in my livejournal

Subject: RE: BS: War--Really Began Now
From: robomatic
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 05:22 PM

Folks, my two cents FWIT:

I remember thinking, right after 911, that if George was serious about this war on terrorism, then Iraq and Korea would HAVE to be on his s+++list. I think if it wasn't for the Twin Towers this would not be happening. I'll go this one better. If Gore were now President, this would still be happening, possibly with U.N. involvement.

I just re-watched the Frontline series compendium "The Long Road to War" The Frontline people are nobody's Conservative think tank. If anything, quite the opposite. They didn't even take a narrative position, simply showed the history of how we got here after the Persian Gulf War. The Iraqi dictator had a 10 Billion dollar nuclear program going, he had biological weapons factories, for the most part the original, more powerful, inspection teams did not find them without Iraqi informants. He has had years to prepare for the latter-day inspectors, a virtually unlimited budget, well trained scientists and engineers, and an excellent sense of taking just enough rope but not enough to fashion a noose with, until this very day.

So the necessity of dealing with this dictator is a no-brainer in my opinion. The people who fashion World Trade Center attacks have to be deprived of their present and future resources. It would have been much better to have the U.N. with us, but, as the French say, C'est La Vie.

I think the loss of civilian life on the Iraqi side will be far less than what's being predicted, unless the Iraqi military uses them as shields or continues to prey off them the way their government has for a couple of decades.

For better or worse, not by way of justification, the U.S. has initiated other military actions without being sanctioned by the U.N: Grenada, Panama. And so have the French: Algeria, and so have the English: Falklands.

I think the way we go about doing this is just as important as what we do, and I share the concerns of others on the list with respect to that. The 'peace' is gonna be a tougher sell than the war.

Thanks for letting me vent.

Subject: RE: BS: War--Really Began Now
From: NicoleC
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 05:27 PM

Yes and no. It's not about US control per se. Americans are perfectly happy to pay for oil; it's not like anyone is planning on stealing it. It's about which corporations earn a profit off the oil sales; which are now guarenteed to be US corporations that happen to meet the mandatory criteria of being willing donors to the Republican Party and those companies with financial ties to the current administration.

The ongoing war over oil is onlt going to get more vicious. Like any addict, the US thinks it needs a bigger and bigger oil fix instead of finding more productive and healthy solutions like getting off the drug instead. Geologists are telling us that oil supplies are due to run out within a few decades. Like starving dogs, the pack is going to fight over what's left of the oil carcass. Unlike dogs, however, we must sugar our self-interest with delusions of how noble and humanitarian we are, despite our clear hypocrasy of ignoring the same crimes anywhere else that doesn't have what we want at the moment.

Subject: RE: BS: War--Really Began Now
From: David Ingerson
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 05:54 PM

Greg,

I have always believed most of the motivation is about oil. But I thought it stopped at profits. That's bad enough. But viewing Europe as the next superpower enemy, destroying OPEC and the Russian economy--that is downright sick and extremely scary. At least with a multinational PAX, even though most people are not free and huge numbers are poor, at least there was some semblance of peace and a chance for people to organize and better themselves to some degree. But with the superpowers at each others' throats--well, it all looks pretty bleak.

David

Subject: RE: BS: War--Really Began Now
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 06:07 PM

For more on how corporate America will benefit from its self-made war, please read Corporate America Divvies Up The Post-Saddam Spoils by Arianna Huffington.

Here are a few excerpts:

The Bush administration is currently in the process of doling out
over $1.5 billion in government contracts to American companies
lining up to cash in on the rebuilding of postwar Iraq.

To further expedite matters, the war-powers-that-be invoked
"urgent circumstances" clauses that allowed them to subvert the
requisite competitive bidding process -- the free market be
damned -- and invite a select group of companies to bid on the
rebuilding projects.

So just which companies were given first crack at the post-Saddam
spoils?

Between them, the bidders -- a quartet of well-connected corporate consortiums that includes Bechtel Group, Fluor Corp., and, of course, Vice President Cheney's old cronies at Halliburton -- have donated a
combined $2.8 million over the past two election cycles, 68
percent of which went to Republicans.

Where else will a $2.8 million ante offer you a one-in-four shot at raking in a $1.5 billion payoff?

She goes on to outline the Bush admin.'s plans to give Iraq "political and economic stability," rebuilding schools, the banking system, and health care system. She quotes dollar amounts, etc. I urge everyone to give this article a read. It is sickening.

IMO, if Bush wants to do so much over there to repair the kinds of things which are so broken over here, with our tax dollars, then I think he should go over there and set himself up as the next little despot and renounce his American citizenship!

Subject: RE: BS: War--Really Began Now
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 06:31 PM

I agree, David, it IS pretty bleak, and for just the reasons you state.

The psychopathic personalities now in charge in the U.S. Gov't. simply DON'T CARE about the poor, about real freedom, about peace, about anyone but the rich (themselves) actually bettering themselves. They don't care because they are upper-crust C-students who know no history or geography and/or because they are psychopaths who cannot care due to their disorder.

It is MORE bleak because this gang was allowed to take over the government through a sleazy coup d'etat with little or no opposition, nor are they getting anything like serious opposition even now...

bleak indeed

Subject: RE: BS: War--Really Began Now
From: Amos
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 06:34 PM

Kat,

I think that is a Grand Idea of the first order!!

He seems to have a flair for the kind of intransigent bullying that the Iraqis are accustomed to. Unfortunately, he is never going to learn to pronounce Sa'alla'm aleikum or Ensh'alla -- hell, he can't even pronounce "nuclear".

Maybe we should just drop him off in Baghdad with $100 in dinar and a five gallon jug of water, and perhaps a tea-towel for his head, and see how he fares, eh??

Nothing like immersion to teach language skills -- that's how he learned his stupidity, after all!

A

Subject: RE: BS: War--Really Began Now
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 07:11 PM

Sorcha penned:
"Just what does Bush hope to accomplish with this? Iraq is, after all, a Fundamentalist Muslim Country, and we will probably be only exchanging Saddam for another just like him. Unless Iraq turns out to be another American Protectorate......Imperialism/Colonialism at its"

Iraq is *not* a "fundamentalist Muslim country".   By that regions standards, they are *very* secular.

Subject: RE: BS: War--Really Began Now
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 07:12 PM

robomatic-Saddam has not in any way been linked to the WTC attacks. He has never supported Al Qaeda. Iran and Saudi Arabia are the real sponsors of terrorism.

David-Destroying OPEC's near-monopoly would really be a good thing. It's what's kept us allied with Saudi Arabia, one of the largest sponsors of terrorism in the world.

Subject: RE: BS: War--Really Began Now
From: robomatic
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 08:31 PM

Forum Lurker - thanks for the response, but that wasn't my point. Saddam's Iraq is a source in itself for terrorism. So is N. Korea. BTW I believe that Iraq has supported some Al Qaeda visitations, although as you say, we do not have evidence Iraq was directly involved with 911.

Subject: RE: BS: War--Really Began Now
From: David Ingerson
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 09:17 PM

Iraq's government is secular; much of it's population is Shiit Muslim, not the fundamentalist sort--I forget their name--that dominates Saudi, Iran, and forms a significant minority in many other Arab and north African countries, especially Algeria.

Because they are a secular government, the Baath party is an enemy of the fundamentalist Al Quada (SP?). The policies of Bush are pushing them closer together. If left alone, they would be fighting against each other tooth and nail.

David

Subject: RE: BS: War--Really Began Now
From: Frankham
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 09:21 PM

The war has been going on for some time. The American people have been asleep. Bush has been dropping bombs in Iraq.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: BS: War--Really Began Now
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 10:09 PM

David Ingerson-You're thinking of the Sunni Muslims. The Shiites could be just as fundamentalist, if they had the power, but I believe Iraq is the only country with a Shiite majority.

Subject: RE: BS: War--Really Began Now
From: Sorcha
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 10:34 PM

OK, OK, so Iraq is NOT a "fundamentalist" Muslim country. Sorry. Any other bones to pick? (grin-not mad)

Subject: RE: BS: War--Really Began Now
From: NicoleC
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 11:57 PM

You're thinking of the Wahhabi sect of Islam. That's one of the most fundamentalist forms of Islam, and the religion of the Saudi Royal family. The Taliban is of a closely related sect; bin Laden is (was?) Wahhabi.

Wahhabism is a sub-sect of Sunni Islam.

Sunni adherents (including sub-sects) are about 85% of Muslims worldwide.

Shiite Islam originated in Iraq.
In Iraq, about 95% of the population is Muslim.
Shiites are about 55-60% of the population.
Sunni Kurds are estimate at 20% and Sunni Arabs at about 15-20%

Subject: RE: BS: War--Really Began Now
From: Troll
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 12:03 AM

So Iraq has no connection to terrorists? Ask yourself this question. Where do the terrorists get their explosives, their arms, their chemicals?
Well, one thing is for sure, they don't manufacture these goods themselves. They don't have the factories needed to make the ingredients that go into things like semtex.
They BUY them from countries like North Korea, France and Iraq. Sometimes the ingredients are "dual use", sometimes not but the old saw still holds true: terrorists don't make bombs, states make bombs.
There is, of course, no actual proof that Iraq has sold to terrorists, mores the pity, but it's certainly a strong possibility. To say that bin Laden could not make common cause with Saddam to harm the US because of religious differences is naive. Bin Laden will use any tool he can find, even a secular state like Iraq. After all, the 9/11 suicide pilots used the US as their training ground.
I believe that the link will be proved in time.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: War--Really Began Now
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 12:08 AM

Troll-most terrorists don't use Semtex. It's far too expensive, either to produce or purchase. Use double the weight of ammonium nitrate, which any idiot can make with a bag of fertilizer, and you can get the same effect. For higher-end stuff, just about every former Soviet satellite has plenty of military equipment and will gladly boost its economy by selling what they don't need.

Subject: RE: BS: War--Really Began Now
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 12:32 AM

corrections

Subject: RE: BS: War--Really Began Now
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 12:45 AM

RR, THANK YOU FOR THAT!! Great stuff!!

Subject: RE: BS: War--Really Began Now
From: Hrothgar
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 02:04 AM

Onya, Rustic!

The best way to support our troops is to bring them home.

Subject: RE: BS: War--Really Began Now
From: David Ingerson
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 12:33 PM

Sorry to have to disagree, Troll, but it's not an old saw and it never was true. First, terrorists can and do make bombs--witness Oklahoma City. Second, most governments buy their bombs from munitions manufacturers, most of which are right here in the good ol' US of A.

David

Subject: RE: BS: War--Really Began Now
From: David Ingerson
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 12:46 PM

Thank you, NicoleC, for your correction and detailed info!

DAvid

Subject: RE: BS: War--Really Began Now
From: GUEST,clint keller
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 02:04 PM

Subject: RE: BS: War--Really Began Now
From: GUEST,clint keller
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 02:15 PM

Figured out, finally, what was troubling me about the pre-emptive strike thing, why it seems different this time from the Spanish-American War et al.

It's true we've done it before; what's been gnawing on my mind is that this is the first time it's been declared a national policy.

Individual cops have shot first and asked questions later, with different degrees of success, but if the police department makes it an official policy, that's scary. And that's why a lot of the world is scared of us.

It takes me a while, sometimes

clint