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BS: Shock and Awe

khandu 20 Mar 03 - 01:15 PM
Deda 20 Mar 03 - 01:57 PM
Don Firth 20 Mar 03 - 02:03 PM
Mudlark 20 Mar 03 - 02:25 PM
Amos 20 Mar 03 - 03:09 PM
Forum Lurker 20 Mar 03 - 03:09 PM
Little Hawk 20 Mar 03 - 03:55 PM
khandu 20 Mar 03 - 04:39 PM
GUEST,joe 20 Mar 03 - 05:03 PM
mg 20 Mar 03 - 05:18 PM
Greg F. 20 Mar 03 - 05:23 PM
GUEST,joe 20 Mar 03 - 05:32 PM
Greg F. 20 Mar 03 - 06:33 PM
Forum Lurker 20 Mar 03 - 07:05 PM
Little Hawk 20 Mar 03 - 07:11 PM
McGrath of Harlow 20 Mar 03 - 07:36 PM
Mudlark 20 Mar 03 - 10:07 PM
mack/misophist 20 Mar 03 - 10:16 PM
Little Hawk 20 Mar 03 - 10:28 PM
Sorcha 20 Mar 03 - 10:31 PM
Little Hawk 20 Mar 03 - 10:59 PM
Barry Finn 20 Mar 03 - 11:18 PM
Forum Lurker 20 Mar 03 - 11:56 PM
Deda 21 Mar 03 - 12:49 AM
mg 21 Mar 03 - 02:01 AM
Hrothgar 21 Mar 03 - 02:13 AM
alanabit 21 Mar 03 - 03:25 AM
mooman 21 Mar 03 - 04:47 AM
InOBU 21 Mar 03 - 05:31 AM
Greg F. 21 Mar 03 - 08:33 AM
Little Hawk 21 Mar 03 - 08:48 AM
Bobert 21 Mar 03 - 09:42 AM
DougR 21 Mar 03 - 11:23 AM
Forum Lurker 21 Mar 03 - 11:26 AM
Willie-O 21 Mar 03 - 12:22 PM
mg 21 Mar 03 - 04:10 PM
GUEST 22 Mar 03 - 03:40 PM
reggie miles 23 Mar 03 - 10:10 AM
GUEST,Geordie 24 Mar 03 - 08:46 AM
Ebbie 24 Mar 03 - 11:20 PM
DougR 25 Mar 03 - 12:43 AM
Peg 25 Mar 03 - 01:17 AM
Wolfgang 25 Mar 03 - 05:28 AM
Ebbie 25 Mar 03 - 02:26 PM
DougR 25 Mar 03 - 03:17 PM
Don Firth 25 Mar 03 - 04:38 PM

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Subject: BS: Shock and Awe
From: khandu
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 01:15 PM

I am shocked that, after all these centuries, mankind is still savage.
I am awed that, after all these centuries, we have lasted this long.

We must be inherently stupid, despite all our intelligence.

k


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Subject: RE: BS: Shock and Awe
From: Deda
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 01:57 PM

And inherently intelligent, despite all our stupidity.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shock and Awe
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 02:03 PM

Well, it is rather amazing that we've lasted this long. But considering the outpouring of protest against this war from all over the world, I would really hesitate to say that "mankind is still savage." I think humanity is fundamentally good. It is those who seek and often attain positions of power who are the savages.

One of the main things we need to learn now is that anyone who seeks a position of power should be viewed with the utmost suspicion.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Shock and Awe
From: Mudlark
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 02:25 PM

While I agree that power corrupts (etc.) and there is much good in basic humanity, I also think there is a glitch in mankind, something Arthur Koestler wrote about at length, which he dubbed (and wrote a book called) the ghost in the machine. Pathology that, like a piece of bad progamming, buried in otherwise solid software, predisposes man to self-destruction. To one degree or another, and at one time or another, it makes us all our own worst enemy. Laws, religion, culture, civilization have been able to temper this, but not overcome it.

I write letters, sign petitions, send contributions, but somehow my intuitive best bet seems to me to try and keep my own ghost from fouling up what I do. Knowing it is there, even as I think of myself as a pacific "good person" helps.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shock and Awe
From: Amos
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 03:09 PM

UNfortunately some laws, religions, and cultures actually reinforce the lizard-brain. But my impression is not that Koestler attributed the dark side of humanity to the Ghost, but rather to the machine. In other words, he was trying to determine what if any evidence there was for a spiritual component within the biochemical legacy of evolution. I could be misremembering it though -- I read the book long before I had any reason to think I could understand it! :>)

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Shock and Awe
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 03:09 PM

We have a strong competetive impulse, which sometimes causes us to be destructive towards others. The actual self-destructive tendencies, through risky behavior, may be an exaggerated method to demonstrate fitness: "See, I'm so tough that I can poison myself with alcohol, tobacco, cocaine, etc. and still be healthy, so I'm obviously a better choice for a mate." Jared Diamond wrote a chapter about this in the book "Why is Sex Fun?"

Don Firth-While most ambitious people are power-hungry, ambition is also necessary to do great good. Someone content to contribute in a small way doesn't make as big a splash.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shock and Awe
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 03:55 PM

I think the real problem here is not stupidity, but fear.

People are afraid of not having enough, thus they compete ruthlessly for resources and create power structures that hoard huge amounts for the benefit of a wealthy few at the top. The USA, with 6% of the world's population, uses up 50% of the world's resources annually. That is a criminally irresponsible allocation of wealth, maintained through monetary power and force of arms.

Saddam Hussein and his family and key associates hoard the resources of their small country to the detriment of the general population in just the same manner. Equally criminal behaviour, maintained through local monetary power and force of arms.

Now the big criminals in America are trying to steal the small criminal's hoard of oil...and provide themselves with a permanent base in the Middle East from which they can rob other small players of their resources.

This would not happen in a world climate not dominated by fear. If people were unafraid, they would share willingly and equally with one another, and not take more than they need...so they would not feel obliged to hoard things. They would help each other.

Fear is the problem. Acute fear leads to actions which are indeed very stupid. And that's what you see happening now, on the part of both the USA and Iraq.

It is ordinary people everywhere who pay the price for it. The pity is that a lot of those ordinary people can so easily be fooled into supporting these criminal actions. As was said in the movie "Gangs Of New York" by Boss Tweed: "You can always get one half of the poor to kill the other half for you."

Boss Tweed is still playing the same game, only worldwide.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Shock and Awe
From: khandu
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 04:39 PM

I do not disagree, LH. But to fear is stupid.

k


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Subject: RE: BS: Shock and Awe
From: GUEST,joe
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 05:03 PM

i would love to contribute to this thread with a display of massive & overwhelming eloquence, but i can't seem to sustain a coherent
thought to the extent of the previous entries. Awe, Shocks!


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Subject: RE: BS: Shock and Awe
From: mg
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 05:18 PM

the oil argument is temporary at best. We will laugh at oil in maybe 2 years, like we laugh at candles made out of smelt (fish) and sperm oil lanterns now. We just won't need it for domestic purposes at least. For starters we can turn down our heat, put on sweaters, walk and bike more etc. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Shock and Awe
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 05:23 PM

???????????


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Subject: RE: BS: Shock and Awe
From: GUEST,joe
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 05:32 PM

oh, come on, you get it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shock and Awe
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 06:33 PM

Not you, joeguest- the claim we won't need oil in 2 years.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shock and Awe
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 07:05 PM

We had better not need it in 20, or things will start geting hairy. Given our exponential growth in oil use, the supplies will have started drying up by then. I agree with Little Hawk that fear is a strong motivator, but I don't think a fearless society would be a good thing: people who aren't afraid of anything are called sociopaths.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shock and Awe
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 07:11 PM

Hmmm...

Mary either means:

1. There is going to be a worldwide planetary catastrophe shortly (such as a major shift of the planet Earth on its axis...causing the utter collapse of most of our societal systems)

Or...

2. She made a misprint and meant to say "2 generations"! There is enough oil available right now to last a whole lot longer than 2 years, which is why George Bush is so keen to take over the Iraqui share of those resources.

Or...

3. She's expecting a miracle breakthrough in energy supply shortly, which is freely marketed to the public...

Or else 4. she's become incoherent... :-)

If possibility #1 above holds any interest for you, there's all kinds of hypothetical info about it on Zetatalk.com and another site called "Troubled Times". I'm not taking sides on it, but it makes for interesting reading.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Shock and Awe
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 07:36 PM

Weren't Shock and Awe the people who put Spitting Image together?


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Subject: RE: BS: Shock and Awe
From: Mudlark
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 10:07 PM

Amos...as I recall, Koestler was making a case for this evolutionary glitch to be the flip side of all the good stuff...creativity, humor, intelligence...the other side of the evolutionary coin. But tho I've read Ghost/Machine and Act of Creeation several times, I'm still not sure I grasp the fine points...haha...or even the coarse ones.

Little Hawk...I agree that fear is a powerful motivator, and a very sneaky one as well, buried deep where a lot of people dont even realize it's operating. The "I've got mine, Jack...EEK! don't take it" syndrome is widespread and operates at a number of levels. I think so many people at the lower levels can be fooled into supporting such insanity as this war because of their own little fears, and the hope that teaming up with the big criminal will accrue both safety and status...sort of like the servants in the Big House lording it over the servants from the lesser houses.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shock and Awe
From: mack/misophist
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 10:16 PM

khandu,

Have no fear. Now that it's possible for man to destroy the earth, it's only a matter of time before we do it. That's one of the reasons I support NASA.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shock and Awe
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 10:28 PM

That's it exactly, Mudlark. The people around here (in central Ontario, Canada) who enthusiastically support the US-led war on Iraq more or less seem to fit this description, most typically...

They are the poorest, least educated people in town. They eat at the local greasy spoons and the donut shops. They are on welfare or working at the gas station or the garage. They are almost all male, and most often rather young males, mouthy, vulgar and loud, with baseball caps on backwards. Between talking with relish about how Saddam is gonna finally get his "ass kicked", they make dirty jokes, swear loudly between every 3 or 4 words, and talk about sports and other manly subjects like that. They read the Toronto Sun (the Reader's Digest condensed version of Mein Kampf in a newspaper).

They think Iraquis wear turbans.

They are the most ignorant and benighted people in this town, and could no more plow their way through the editorial page than levitate or sing grand opera with Pavarotti.

They are assholes, bottom feeders, and losers.

That's typically, mind you...there ARE a few local conservatives who do not exactly fit this description, although they probably do read the Sun.

The above yobbos I have described comprise maybe 15 per cent of the local adult population, I'd say, at the most.

That's George Bush's constituency up here. That and some rich businessmen. It tells you a lot, doesn't it? Tyrants love an ignorant mob, which can easily be fooled and manipulated.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Shock and Awe
From: Sorcha
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 10:31 PM

Well, in the Long Term/Universe sense, we really haven't been here very long.............we'll blow ourselves to kingdom come sooner that the dinosuars were obliberated I think.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shock and Awe
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 10:59 PM

Well, possibly... If we do, I will just reincarnate somewhere else or come back as a lemur or something along that line. Maybe a hawk. :-)

No matter what the New World Order comes up with, I doubt that it will kill all of us.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Shock and Awe
From: Barry Finn
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 11:18 PM

We're not gonna need oil for much longer Mary. Bush is ready to give us a new style bio hydrogen car (along with 3 rolls of duct tape, 2 rolls of plastic & 1 Alaskan natural wonder, no need to pass out chicken here) that'll save the world from self destruction. Untill then though, who ever is the Commander-In-Chief of an occupying force of an overthrown nation is the lord master & ruler supreme of that nation, no questions. So we'll have to wait on that vechical & suck every oil well dry before we get that god damn almighty world liberating car. Wouldn't want the future of big oil's 'gang of 40'(Bush's VP & appointees) to miss out on the one last drop of that life giving, death defying, blood sucking, fish feeding necture of the gods, would we, they might need it to finance the next plundering of another nation's valuable natural resource or maybe funnel it into some mass weapon arms developer/manufacture's R & R & make a killing in that field next. Hell, "we don't need any of your stinking oil" anyway. Hasn't oil been around far longer that it needed to be, isn't it time for the few to let the of rest of us move on? Oh shit, people use to say that I was pathalogicly affirmative, what's happened to me & why is my sky falling? Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: Shock and Awe
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 11:56 PM

We aren't the first species to come close to destroying the Earth's ecology. Cyanobacteria tried it first, and came a lot closer with a much simpler tool: oxygen. Life will continue, no matter what we do to destroy it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shock and Awe
From: Deda
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 12:49 AM

We have a long, long way to go to catch up with the dinosaurs, longevity-wise. I think our chances are slim. Now that the nuclear genie has gotten out of the bottle not only into the big-muscle, "respectable" nations but even into the axis of evil, North Korea, not to mention India and Pakistan, it's only a matter of time until somebody uses it who doesn't have the international Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval. That is, somebody widely regarded as nuts. Once someone crazy uses it, the nations that don't think of themselves as crazy could easily be forced into a kind of ricocheting nuclear showdown. I guess some human life could survive, but they won't have a very habitable planet for a VERY long time.

Fear isn't always stupid. Theoretically I believe that we're all immortal spirits, and at some level we can't really be harmed, but that doesn't mean that I'm free of fear, or even that I can foresee that. True freedom from fear -- well, devoutly to be wished, but not likely in this lifetime.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shock and Awe
From: mg
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 02:01 AM

Oh hell..someone could invent a car, a factory, whatever, that could be run by stoking the engine with corncobs. I think sucking oil out of the earth is an inherently stupid thing to do...we had it in abundance, probably still do, but there are so many alternatives we will switch to one family at a time that it will just be obsolete very soon.

mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Shock and Awe
From: Hrothgar
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 02:13 AM

Seems to me that the problem comes down to people who want to show their strength by blowing up somebody else.

If Dubya (and, to be fair to him, a lot of other politicians) wanted to show real political and moral strength, they would be finding ways to restrict oil usage now. Trouble is, that's too hard and might cost votes. What Sir Humphrey would refer to as a "courageous decision."


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Subject: RE: BS: Shock and Awe
From: alanabit
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 03:25 AM

You are right Hrothgar. However, if you are looking for integrity and moral strength, you may have to look a little further than Dubya. Some of us can remember what happened to Jimmy Carter when he told the American public that they did not have the right to use up the world's oil resources.In any event, I wouldn't look to Dubya for any sort of leadership. He is essentially a follower. He played to the yob element in his gallery after the September 11th attacks. A strong leader would have had the bottle to tell the public that it would take time to identify the culprits and make America safe. Unfortunately, America has a president with a weak mind and a strong military machine. That is why we are at war.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shock and Awe
From: mooman
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 04:47 AM

Dear Forum Lurker,

While very many ambitious people have certanly done great good I don't think it is necessarily a prerequisite. I could probably name a dozen rather unambitious and relatively unknown people who have done enormous good for humanity with purely altruistic motives. And many people who have done what are in themselves relatively small things have sparked off or ultimately contributed to a major movement for good.

Yours in peace,

moo


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Subject: RE: BS: Shock and Awe
From: InOBU
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 05:31 AM

I am shocked that Bliz Krieg is alive and well in the 21st Century
and Awed at the fact that so many Americans support it.

I am shocked that Americans call liberty the loss of all our defining freedoms...
and awed that so many Americans don't care...

I am shocked that we are following a fool over the cliff
and awed that so many americans are marching along.

Larry


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Subject: RE: BS: Shock and Awe
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 08:33 AM

I think "Shuck and Jive" would be a more appropriate phrase for this Keystone Cops bunch.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shock and Awe
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 08:48 AM

Well, Larry, it happened in Germany once, and Germans are just as smart and civilized as Americans.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shock and Awe
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 09:42 AM

Well, danged! Yeah, I agree with LH. that *S & A* is meant to scare folks and for folks who are illprepared to defend themselves, like Iraq, it work's purdy well. And there are an entire list of other nations with weak militaries that it would work equally well,

Problem with *S & A" is that the other two countries on Bush's hit list have a little *S & A* of their own. Maybe, Bush will have to have them demoted and bring up a couple countries from the minor league, like Syria and Lybia to round out the Axis?

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Shock and Awe
From: DougR
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 11:23 AM

Arghhhhhh! I agree with Greg F. on something! Mary, I think your two year forecast is a bit too optomistic. Maybe fifteen years though.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Shock and Awe
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 11:26 AM

Mooman-I didn't mean necessarily personal ambition, but a strong desire to accomplish great things, whether they are for your own benefit or others'.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shock and Awe
From: Willie-O
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 12:22 PM

LH, since I am also in Central Ontario, I know exactly who you're talking about. The age range and gender of Canadian supporters of this war is broader though than you suggest.   Listening to the CBC phone-ins they've adhered to a rather strict protocol the past few days of pro-war, then anti-war, then pro-war, then anti-war...I believe that the pro-war side is definitely a minority, (the Globe & Mail last month reported about 80% against a non-UN sanctioned war) but they are benefitting from this equal-time policy.

A recurring theme I hear from these folks, aside from "I remember Hitler...", is "The U.S. is our friend, therefore we should go to war with them any time they do." What the fuck?

Bill
neither shocked nor awed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shock and Awe
From: mg
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 04:10 PM

I don't mean the transition would be made in 2 years...too soon to retool unless absolutely forced to...but we are artificially being kept on an oil life support system and obviously need to phase out...easy things first. Wear 2 sweaters. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Shock and Awe
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Mar 03 - 03:40 PM

for shock and awe, read murder, massacre and incompetence


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Subject: RE: BS: Shock and Awe
From: reggie miles
Date: 23 Mar 03 - 10:10 AM

The only shock and awe around here is reserved for those who protest the war. The police are using little known (even to the marchers) tactics (loopholes) to justify the cancellation of legally obtained march permits to protest. They then proceeded to ascend upon the assembled peaceful gathering them like fish in a net and not allowing those who wish to leave the area peacefully. In the process they've beaten the crowds with baseball bat sized clubs and other nonlethal riot control weapons. The weird thing about it is, there was no riot. Only the out of control actions of hundreds of police types quelling the peaceful protest. I suppose GeeDubya wants everybody to go along with his ideas or go directly to jail. The officers involved were even refusing to identify themselves by covering their names on their uniforms so their acts of civil disobedience could not be traced back to them. The police have been covertly photographing the marchers, no doubt to brand the demonstrators who have exercised their right to protest the war as radicals and unpatriotic. I dare say that even the Iraqi soldiers have not met with such treatment by our troops abroad. There's blood in the streets right here in our cities and it ain't due to some foreign terrorists. It's being shed by the terrorists we've elected to offices of authority all across this land of ours. I'm starting to feel like making a quick exit out of Dodge.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shock and Awe
From: GUEST,Geordie
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 08:46 AM

Someday a man will drive into a self serve gas station and pour the last bit of gas on the planet into his 4x4. A few days later he will pull up in front of Walmart and discover that it is in darkness, lights off, automatic doors permenantly closed, an obnoxious greeter out of work. Thousands of cars in lot the have been left beind, their owners trying to find wild berries at the roadside.
   Suddenly it will occur to us that two hundred dollar sneakers that cost three dollars to make is not the road to happiness, nor is the two car garage or the swimming pool or the dvd player.We in the west wwill have waged war, destoyed the planet and cancelled the futire just for the right to have too much of everything.
    We don't need more, we need less, a whole lot less consumption of oil.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shock and Awe
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 11:20 PM

reggie miles, where did this happen? I hadn't heard that.

As to Shock!! and Awe!!, there was a retired military general on tv this morning who said that 'Shock and Awe' has not yet happened, that it will take place inside Baghdad when the coalition forces engage the Republican Guard (Ha! Wonder how that cognomen makes our Republicans feel?).

My question is how can precision missiles rain devastation on a city with our own forces inside it? The Iraqi's are the ones with knowledge of the tunnels.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shock and Awe
From: DougR
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 12:43 AM

Ebbie: what's a cognomen?

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Shock and Awe
From: Peg
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 01:17 AM

well said, Geordie. I fully agree.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shock and Awe
From: Wolfgang
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 05:28 AM

Ullman (inventor of this tactic) speaking to the Guardian about how it works

The phrase, as used by the Pentagon now, has not been helpful

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Shock and Awe
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 02:26 PM

A name.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shock and Awe
From: DougR
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 03:17 PM

I see.


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Subject: RE: BS: Shock and Awe
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 04:38 PM

Methinks those who are "Shocked" and "Awed" are not the Iraqis, but Bush and his minions.

Bush, with his "I'm giving you forty-eight hours to get out of the country" John Wayne imitation, paints himself into a corner with his own tongue because Hussein is still there when the forty-eight hours are up. He has to do something to keep from looking like an ass, so against the advice of the military, he prematurely orders the troops in. We start the war with a bang by taking a shot at Hussein. And missing! Then we manage to kill some of our own with a helicopter collision, followed by shooting down a British Tornado jet with a Patriot missile. The "coalition," starting the charge by stumbling over their own feet undoubtedly gave Hussein a severe case of the giggles.

One of the results of our initial assaults is the loss of electrical power in Basra, a city of 1,000,000 people. Without electricity, there is no water. With no potable water, disease is likely. Kofi Annan warns the U. S. about the possibilities of a "humanitarian disaster" as a result, and what the world reaction will undoubtedly be if we don't stave it off immediately. The humanitarian supplies are sitting on ships out in the harbor, but they're afraid to bring them in because, in Bush's haste to launch the war, they didn't have enough time to de-mine the harbor.

On top of this, it turns out that instead of our troops being greeted with ticker-tape parades as the Bush Administration kept predicting, they're being met with unexpectedly fierce resistance. In addition, some of the Iraqis know how to fight dirty (e.g., show a white flag, then start shooting) which is the sort of thing you do when you're desperate We knew all along (history repeats itself) that in another act of desperation, Hussein would put his military installations in among the resident of Baghdad so we can't take them out without killing a lot of civilians. Instant propaganda victory. And—it turns out that although most Iraqis don't like Hussein and do want to get rid of him, they regard the Americans, not as liberators, but as invaders, hell-bent on conquest. They don't like it.

Principle:— It's usually a mistake to believe your own propaganda.

Don Firth


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This Thread Is Closed.


Mudcat time: 26 October 2:59 AM EDT

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