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Subject: RE: is Rattlin Bog Irish? From: The Sandman Date: 04 Oct 21 - 05:14 PM It is a very good tune to use for the irish dance SIEGE OF ENNIS |
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Subject: RE: Origins: rathlin bog / Rattlin' Bog / Rattling Bog From: Felipa Date: 04 Oct 21 - 03:55 PM There is a Danish variant posted in another thread, which is similar to the Yiddish version. Malcolm Douglas also mentions "[Peter] Kennedy, Folk Songs of Britain and Ireland, 226-7: "The Tree on the Hill", a set from Morvah, Cornwall; with translation into Cornish). Danish variant https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=9488 Subject: ADD: Langt udi Skoven (Tree in the Forest) From: Malcolm Douglas - PM Date: 12 Oct 03 - 09:09 PM Here's a Danish form of the song. No traditional source is specified, unfortunately. LANGT UDI SKOVEN (THE TREE IN THE FOREST) (Danish tradition: from the repertoire of Engel Lund, 1936) Langt udi Skoven laa et lille Bjerg, Aldrig saae jeg saa deiligt et Bjerg, Bjerget ligger langt udi Skoven. Deep in the forest stands a little hill, I never saw so sweet a little hill, Hill, standing deep in the forest. Paa det lille Bjerg der stod et lille Træ, Aldrig saae jeg saa deiligt et Træ, Træet paa Bjerget, Bjerget ligger langt udi Skoven. On the little hill, there grew a little tree, I never saw so sweet a little tree, Tree on the hill, Hill, standing deep in the forest. Paa det lille Træ der var en lille Gren Aldrig saae jeg saa deilig en Gren; Grenen paa Træet, Træet paa Bjerget, Bjerget ligger langt udi Skoven. On the little tree, there grew a little branch, I never saw so sweet a little branch, Branch on the tree, Tree on the hill, Hill, standing deep in the forest. Paa den lille Gren der var en lille Kvist, Aldrig saae jeg saa deilig et Kvist, Kvisten paa Grenen, Grenen paa Træet, Træet paa Bjerget, Bjerget ligger langt udi Skoven. On the little branch, there grew a little twig, I never saw so sweet a little twig, Twig on the branch, Branch on the tree, Tree on the hill, Hill, standing deep in the forest. Paa den lille Kvist der var et lille Blad, Aldrig saae jeg saa deiligt et Blad, Bladet paa Kvisten, Kvisten paa Grenen, Grenen paa Træet, Træet paa Bjerget, Bjerget ligger langt udi Skoven. On the little twig, there grew a little leaf, I never saw so sweet a little leaf, Leaf on the twig, Twig on the branch, Branch on the tree, Tree on the hill, Hill, standing deep in the forest. Engel Lund: A First Book of Folk-Songs, Oxford University Press, 1936. |
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Subject: Add: FUNEM SHEYNEM VORTSL AROYS (Yiddish variant} From: Felipa Date: 04 Oct 21 - 03:45 PM FUNEM SHEYNEM VORTSL AROYS As sung by Ruth Rubin, New York, 1962 https://immigrationusa.yivo.org/items/show/4850 Funem sheynem vortsl aroys, Iz a sheyner boym aroys. Boym funem vortsl, vortsl fun der erd, Zint s’iz bashafn himl un erd. Funem sheynem boym aroys, Iz a sheyner tsvayg aroys. Tsvayg funem boym, boym funem vortsl, Vortsl fun der erd, Zint s’iz bashafn himl un erd. Funem sheynem tsvayg aroys, Is a sheyner nest aroys. Nest funem tsvayg, tsvayg funem boym, Boym funem vortsl, vortsl fun der erd, Zint s’iz bashafn himl un erd. Funem sheynem nest aroys, Iz a sheyner foygl aroys. Foygl funem nest, nest funem tsvayg, Tsvayg funem boym, boym funem vortsl, Vortsl fun der erd, Zint s’iz bashafn himl un erd. Funem sheynem foygl aroys, Iz a sheyner feder aroys. Feder funem foygl, foygl funem nest, Nest funem tsvayg, tsvayg funem boym, Boym funem vortsl, vortsl fun der erd, Zint s’iz bashafn himl un erd. Funem sheynem feder aroys, Iz a sheyner kishn aroys. Kishn funem feder, feder funem foygl, Foygl funem nest, nest funem tsvayg, Tsvayg funem boym, boym funem vorstl, Vortsl fun der erd, Zint s’iz bashafn himl un erd. Funem sheynem kishn aroys, Iz a sheyner kholem aroys. Kholem funem kishn, kishn funem feder, Feder funem foygl, foygl funem nest, Nest funem tsvayg, tsvayg funem boym, Boym funem vortsl, vortsl fun der erd, Zint s’iz bashafn himl un erd. translation - OUT OF THE BEAUTIFUL ROOT Out of the beautiful root, A beautiful tree grew. Tree from the root and root from the earth, Since heaven and earth were created. From the beautiful tree, A lovely branch grew. Branch from the tree, tree from the root, Root from the earth, Since heaven and earth were created. From the lovely branch, There came a pretty nest. Nest from the branch, branch from the tree, Tree from the root, root from the earth, Since heaven and earth were created. From the pretty nest, A beautiful bird was born. Bird from the nest, nest from the branch, Branch from the tree, tree from the root, Root from the earth, Since heaven and earth were created. From the beautiful bird, A fine feather came. Feather came from the bird, bird from the nest, Nest from the branch, branch from the tree, Tree from the root, root from the earth, Since heaven and earth were created. From the fine feather, A lovely pillow was made. Pillow from the feather, feather from the bird, Bird from the nest, nest from the branch, Branch from the tree, tree from the root, Root from the earth, Since heaven and earth were created. Out of the lovely pillow, A sweet dream was born. Dream from the pillow, pillow from the feather, Feather from the bird, bird from the nest, Nest from the branch, branch from the tree, Tree from the root, root from the earth, Since heaven and earth were created Sung by Polina Belilovsky see Yiddish in Hebrew characters and also a translation to French at http://yidlid.org/chansons/vortsl/index.html music sheet & midi http://yidlid.org/chansons/vortsl/index.html#melo I am seeing links to an article which I don't yet have access to, but the introduction suggests that there is also a German language version of this song which appears related to The Rattlin' Bog. "Funem (sh)eynem vortsl aroys?!—Approaches to the Study of Parallel Eastern Yiddish and German Folk Songs" In: European Journal of Jewish Studies Author: Andreas Schmitges Online Publication Date: 25 Jun 2014 The Rattlin' Bog · Lorin Sklamberg and Susan McKeown https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zeQ0mRCMkTM |
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Subject: RE: Origins: rathlin bog / Rattlin' Bog / Rattling Bog From: Lighter Date: 12 Jun 20 - 03:08 PM Here's an 1893 glimpse, from the Barton County Democrat (Great Bend, Kans.) (Sept. 28, 1893), p.3: "...and the katydid disputed with the wife of its bosom, and the wood tick whetted his tushes on the trees, and the green grass grew all around, all around, and the green grass grew all around." "Tush" = an old rural form of "tusk." Not what you're thinking. And this, in the Bridgeport (Conn.) Standard (May 16, 1873), p. 4: "A horror-stricken state of boiled-down nothingness still reigns supreme in this community. Green peas are selling for forty cents a quart, and the green grass grows all around." |
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Subject: RE: Origins: rathlin bog / Rattlin' Bog / Rattling Bog From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 25 May 20 - 07:56 PM It now seems to me that the word we sang was "prettiest," not "finest." In any case, the words of a Virginia version - which seem to be rather older than 1907- appeared in the Richmond Times Dispatch Sunday Magazine (June 14, 1936), p. 5, as sung by Martha Davis of Harrisonburg: There was a tree on yonder hill, And a cu-ri-ous tree it was, sir. And on that tree there was a limb, Limb on the tree, tree on the hill, And a cu-ri-ous tree. And on that tree there was a limb.... The final stanza is, And on that bird there was a feather, And a curious feather it was, sir. Feather on the bird, bird in the egg, egg in the nest, nest on the bough, bough on the limb, limb on the tree, tree on the hill, And a cu-ri-ous tree. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: rathlin bog / Rattlin' Bog / Rattling Bog From: Lighter Date: 25 Apr 20 - 01:03 PM The earliest reference I've found to the usual American form of the song is this: The Honey Jar: A Receptacle for Literary Preserves (Columbus, O.) Vol. 9, 1907, p. 102: "....where high-priced birds sing the latest songs, and the green grass grows all around, all around." When I was in grade school in NYC (ca1957), we sang this in chorus. As I recall, it went: Now in the woods there was a tree, The finest tree you ever did see: The tree in the wood And the green grass grew all around, all around, And the green grass grew all around. Now on the tree there was a limb, The finest limb you ever did see: The limb on the tree and the tree in the woods, And the green grass grew all around, all around, And the green grass grew all around. [Similarly:] ...branch... ...twig... ...nest... ...egg... ...bird... It would have been "circular" had it started out with a bird on the tree, but I don't think it did - at least not as far as I can recall. The tune differed from "The Rattling Bog." The rhythmical "green grass"refrain was almost identical to the concluding two lines of the refrain of Stephen Foster's "The Glendy Burke" - though we didn't know it at the time. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: rathlin bog / Rattlin' Bog / Rattling Bog From: Steve Shaw Date: 25 Apr 20 - 07:53 AM From: GUEST Date: 06 Feb 19 - 05:02 AM "I first heard this c. 1966/7 in my home town of Peebles in the Scottish Borders. We had "Saturday morning pictures" which some times featured live music, notably local beat group The Livewires. Sometimes we had a young lady folk singer who I think was involved with the Girl Guides. She used to sing "Rattling Bog" I always thought the "Rare bog, a rattling bog" meant a bog of some quality and distinction (by bog standards) She sang; In the valley was a bog, a rare bog a rattling bog and the bog's down in the valley o. Then; In the bog there was a tree And on the tree there was a branch And on the branch there was a twig And on the twig there was a leaf And on the leaf there was a nest And on the nest there was an egg And on the egg there was a bird Can't remember any more than that!" That's the version I know (or knew!) The only time I ever heard and sang it was in the Bucks Inn in Malham in 1970 when I was on a botany field course. One of our bunch was a bit of a folkie and he got us singing this in the pub (along with Chicken On A Raft and Good Luck To The Barley Mow!) The version was the same as this and I can remember a feather on that bird, but that's all I can remember! |
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Subject: RE: Origins: rathlin bog / Rattlin' Bog / Rattling Bog From: Jim Carroll Date: 22 Apr 20 - 10:52 AM Pretty popular among Irish Travellers, sometimes called 'The Field Down in the Valley O Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Origins: rathlin bog / Rattlin' Bog / Rattling Bog From: GUEST Date: 22 Apr 20 - 10:29 AM A quick look at the Roud index for Roud 129 indicates that the song was found all over the English speaking world, especially in England and the USA but rarely in Ireland. As for trying to analyse and rationalise the word "rattling", remember that folk songs don't have to make sense or have hidden meanings! Tradsinger |
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Subject: RE: Origins: rathlin bog / Rattlin' Bog / Rattling Bog From: BrooklynJay Date: 19 Apr 20 - 07:22 PM I love it! You've made my day. Thanks so much for posting the lyrics. When I got married in October 2018, my brother-in-law and his two boys sang Rattlin' Bog - and it was quite enjoyable. Now, however, I have a new song to learn to help pass these days of near-confinement. Never know when it will come in handy. World, you have been warned. Jay |
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Subject: ADD: Fido, the Rabid Dog (Liz Milner) From: Lotusland Date: 19 Apr 20 - 05:26 PM FIDO, THE RABID DOG (New Lyrics by Liz Milner. Tune is Hi Ho The Rattling Bog) Fido, the rabid dog, he bit my sister Sally- o Fido, the rabid dog, he bit my sister Sally-o Fido was a Pekinese, a rare breed, a rabid breed And he brought home trash and ticks and fleas And bit my sister Sally-o. Fido, the rabid dog, he bit my sister Sally- o Fido, the rabid dog, he bit my sister Sally-o And in that trash there was a bird, a dead bird, a rotten bird Bird in the trash with the ticks and the fleas Brought home by the rabid Pekinese that bit my sister Sally-O. Fido, the rabid dog, he bit my sister Sally-o Fido, the rabid dog, he bit my sister Sally-o And on that bird there was a tick, a small tick, a deadly tick And it gave poor Sally Lyme disease, along with the rabies, ticks and fleas Brought home by the rabid Pekinese that bit my sister Sally-o. Fido, the rabid dog, he bit my sister Sally-o Fido, the rabid dog, he bit my sister Sally-o I wrote these lyrics as the result of being subjected to two hours of the Rattlin’ Bog being sung over and over and over again by a group who were hired to sing at local craft show and apparently knew only one song that was appropriate. If you enjoy this song, please meander over to Amazon and check out my newly published book, The Zombie Librarians' Holiday Songbook, in print or Kindle –E.R.M. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: rathlin bog / Rattlin' Bog / Rattling Bog From: Joe Offer Date: 18 Apr 20 - 11:53 PM I heard Charlie Baum sing "Fido, the Rabid Dog" this evening. Song is by Liz Milner. Hope she can post the lyrics here. I emailed her. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: Origins: rathlin bog / Rattlin' Bog / Rattling Bog From: GUEST,phnque Date: 22 Feb 19 - 09:24 AM Schooner Fare used to end their concerts with that song. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: rathlin bog / Rattlin' Bog / Rattling Bog From: mayomick Date: 12 Feb 19 - 12:15 PM It doesn't make sense of the use of the word "rattling" in the song though.A bog is soft and squelchy, it doesn't rattle.If you walk across a bog it will slow you down, not speed you up.In Ireland we say about an enjoyable occasion that people had "a rattling good time" so it could be to do with that - by all accounts , everybody enjoyed a good day or a "rattling good time" in the bog at turf -cutting time. But that would be a stretch . |
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Subject: RE: Origins: rathlin bog / Rattlin' Bog / Rattling Bog From: leeneia Date: 10 Feb 19 - 10:54 AM Makes sense. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: rathlin bog / Rattlin' Bog / Rattling Bog From: Sian H Date: 09 Feb 19 - 11:26 AM My group is called Rattlebag, and we sing folk songs acappella. We always say we are rattling though songs when we notice we have sung them fast. If we think a song is dragging, we say it's time to rattle it up. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: rathlin bog / Rattlin' Bog / Rattling Bog From: leeneia Date: 07 Feb 19 - 11:09 AM My unabridged dictionary says of 'rattling' 1. given to rattling, hence fast 2. Colloquial: fast, speedy, hence remarkable, good, etc It may be that when the song was new, the phrase 'rattling bog' was humorous in and of itself, because how could a bog rattle? Over the decades we've got used to it. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: rathlin bog / Rattlin' Bog / Rattling Bog From: mayomick Date: 07 Feb 19 - 07:28 AM "Curious" is close to what I always took the word “rattling” in the song to mean .Is there an Irish word that sounds like rattling that means curious , rare, strange , odd, magical, mysterious , unusual ? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: rathlin bog / Rattlin' Bog / Rattling Bog From: Manitas_at_home Date: 07 Feb 19 - 06:06 AM Wasn't it in the 1940 (or 1951?) film of Tom Brown's Schooldays? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: rathlin bog / Rattlin' Bog / Rattling Bog From: GUEST,Bob Coltman Date: 06 Feb 19 - 07:09 PM I first heard "Rattlin' Bog" on an LP record by Seamus Ennis, on Tradition? label I believe, in the late 1950s, and loved it for its great difference from "Green Grass Growin' All Around," its US successor. I know of no recorded source before Ennis, so unless someone else can turn up an earlier source, this may be it. I imagine it may have appeared in some Irish collection before that, but being a Yank I could easily have missed it. Great song!! Bob |
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Subject: RE: Origins: rathlin bog / Rattlin' Bog / Rattling Bog From: Mrrzy Date: 06 Feb 19 - 07:54 AM Memory songs, like the house that jack built. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: rathlin bog / Rattlin' Bog / Rattling Bog From: Maoildeirg Date: 06 Feb 19 - 06:05 AM I would not be surprised if someone told me the word Rattlin was relatively new to that part of the song and that the word Curious had previously been used because it fits far better than the word "Rattlin", especially in a musical sense. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: rathlin bog / Rattlin' Bog / Rattling Bog From: GUEST Date: 06 Feb 19 - 05:14 AM One of those songs that make me groan every time somebody starts it off. It does however provide an excellent excuse to get up and go to the bar, so it does serve a purpose I suppose. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: rathlin bog / Rattlin' Bog / Rattling Bog From: GUEST Date: 06 Feb 19 - 05:02 AM I first heard this c. 1966/7 in my home town of Peebles in the Scottish Borders. We had "Saturday morning pictures" which some times featured live music, notably local beat group The Livewires. Sometimes we had a young lady folk singer who I think was involved with the Girl Guides. She used to sing "Rattling Bog" I always thought the "Rare bog, a rattling bog" meant a bog of some quality and distinction (by bog standards) She sang; In the valley was a bog, a rare bog a rattling bog and the bog's down in the valley o. Then; In the bog there was a tree And on the tree there was a branch And on the branch there was a twig And on the twig there was a leaf And on the leaf there was a nest And on the nest there was an egg And on the egg there was a bird Can't remember any more than that! I think Bill Barclay did a ruder version which had the lines On the bed there was a woman And on the woman was a man And on the man there was some sweat! All this from memory. Grahame Hood |
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Subject: RE: Origins: rathlin bog / Rattlin' Bog / Rattling Bog From: Jim McLean Date: 06 Feb 19 - 03:48 AM This is my English translation of a Breton song called the the Pretty Field, printed mid 19th century. The cock is on the tower, the tower is on the convent, the convent is on the monk, the monk is on the nun, the nun is on the feather, the feather is on the little bird, the little bird is on the egg, the egg is on the nest, the nest is on the branch, the branch is on the oak (tree), the oak is on the acorn, the acorn is on the embankment, the embankment is on the field, and the field belongs to me! And everything belongs to me! |
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Subject: RE: Origins: rathlin bog / Rattlin' Bog / Rattling Bog From: Thompson Date: 06 Feb 19 - 03:08 AM Rathlin (nothing to do with the song, afaik) is an island off the northeast coast of Ireland and the site of the 1575 mass murder of 200 defenders and 400 others, the extended family of Somhairle Buí MacDonnell - women, babies, little children, old people, who had hidden on the island in its caves, etc. Francis Drake led the butcheries. The Earl of Essex later described how Somhairle, held on the shore 100 yards away to watch, was “like to run mad from sorrow”. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: rathlin bog / Rattlin' Bog / Rattling Bog From: Joe Offer Date: 05 Feb 19 - 09:53 PM From an email I received today:
Seán I've never heard "curious" - has anyone here heard a version with "a rare branch and a curious branch?" -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: Origins: rathlin bog / Rattlin' Bog / Rattling Bog From: GUEST,Mysha (on board) Date: 08 Jul 14 - 01:56 PM Hi, I always took this to be "rattling", like a single bean, pea, screw, whatever, rattles in its container. So, a single/lone bog, containing a single/lone tree, etc. Bye Mysha |
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Subject: RE: Origins: rathlin bog / Rattlin' Bog / Rattling Bog From: Mrrzy Date: 08 Jul 14 - 12:50 PM THis is fascinating - Iknow several versions of the Tree in the hole and the hole in the ground and the green grass growing all around all around and the green grass growing all around... and NONE of them are circular! They all go from big to tiny but not to the seed to regrow the tree! Wow! |
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Subject: RE: Origins: rathlin bog / Rattlin' Bog / Rattling Bog From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 08 Jul 14 - 10:25 AM I agree with you, Jack. This thread has got me to thinking about words which end in 'ing' and have little real meaning. Instead, they are used in traditional ways to express either approval or disapproval. Examples: a brand *spanking-new automobile a *bouncing baby boy (who might be too little even to raise his head) a *corking great festival or a *bleeding great rhinoceros head a-mounted on a board! a huge, *hulking, ugly yacht and of course, the working man's all-purpose adjective, f*cking. ========= To me, the interesting thing about 'The Rattling Bog' is that it's a song for teaching. We sing it with children, and we are not only having fun and passing the time, we are teaching them language and order (from big to small) and memory skills. Those are probably the reasons why the song is widespread and has lasted so long. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: rathlin bog / Rattlin' Bog / Rattling Bog From: Jack Campin Date: 08 Jul 14 - 07:02 AM I suspect "rattle grass" is usually Rhinanthus minor. It's a weird plant and I doubt it can have had many positive associations in traditional culture. So I doubt it relates to the song. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: rathlin bog / Rattlin' Bog / Rattling Bog From: GUEST,Eliza Date: 08 Jul 14 - 04:25 AM Yes! In answer to my own question (I've just looked it up!) it's called The Maypole Song and was written for the film by Paul Giovanni. It's on Youtube, and the lyrics are very similar to the Rattling Bog type of song. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: rathlin bog / Rattlin' Bog / Rattling Bog From: GUEST,Eliza Date: 08 Jul 14 - 04:17 AM Wasn't a song similar to this sung in that weird film The Wicker Man? I seem to remember a circle of boys swinging their arms in an odd way and dancing self-consciously in a ring. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: rathlin bog / Rattlin' Bog / Rattling Bog From: Geoff the Duck Date: 08 Jul 14 - 03:53 AM If your grass is this one Briza maxima - Greater quaking grass - the growing conditions quoted for it are "well drained soil", so very unlikely to be found anywhere near a bog. There are Quaking Bogs, where water is covered by a thick mat of mosses and other plants and the whole surface moves up and down if you walk on it. I have even seen small trees waving about as the medium they are growing in moves. That said a quaking bog would not be "rattling". I have always assumed the same usage as having a "rattling good time" (Dictionary definition number 2. That said - not sure what is really good about a bog? Quack! GtD. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: rathlin bog From: Mr Red Date: 08 Jul 14 - 03:27 AM Mudcat thread with more normal spelling where I posit the concept of a grass known (in the UK at least) as "Rattle Grass" and it would appear to thrive in damp conditions. And is pretty gregarious - see Rattle Grass Whaddayareckon? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Rattling Bog? From: Mr Red Date: 08 Jul 14 - 03:22 AM Wiki on Rattlin' Bog says "popular Irish song" which just means it was sung there IMHO. Origin still unknown. Song Meanings .com are even less helpful. The most edifying reference I can see is (guess where) here on the 'Cat. Rathlin' Bog so I will add my 6 pen'th. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Rattling Bog? From: Jack Campin Date: 07 Jul 14 - 06:57 PM I once went on a botanizing walk in Transylvania with a local expert who pointed to a meadow dominated by what looked like the same stuff - he said (via an interpreter from Hungarian) that it was locally known as "useless plant" or "cursed plant", and the meadow we were looking at was traditionally believed to have been accursed with it after a bishop was murdered there a few centuries before. When does the tune for "The Rattling Bog" date from? It was known in Scotland as "March to the Battlefield" in the 1830s. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Rattling Bog? From: Banjo-Flower Date: 07 Jul 14 - 06:50 PM BG Did you smoke it Gerry |
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Subject: Origins: Rattling Bog? From: Mr Red Date: 07 Jul 14 - 05:59 PM We picked some grass that looked like a miniature lantern. It was said to be Rattle Grass. Is this the reason the bog was a rattling bog? Just a thought. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: rathlin bog From: Steve Gardham Date: 04 Oct 10 - 10:35 AM And you can also look at the several variants on garlands and broadsides under various titles. One at least available online is a later one printed by Pearson of Manchester, Bodleian, Firth, c26 (260) titled 'Where the green leaves grows all around. But I have a version c1800 titled 'The Tree on the Hill' from a garland. It's pretty obvious they all come from oral tradition and as someone has already pointed out the song is known in various parts of Europe and must be at least 3 centuries old. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: rathlin bog From: GUEST Date: 03 Oct 10 - 08:05 PM ok Rathlin is a place in Ireland... It's an Island off of the north coast of ireland. And rattlin' isn't an irish slang adjective... :P |
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Subject: RE: Origins: rathlin bog From: Paul Burke Date: 11 Aug 09 - 02:02 AM Heresy! Four elephants, a turtle, then nothing! |
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Subject: RE: Origins: rathlin bog From: Phil Edwards Date: 10 Aug 09 - 05:16 PM The "full circle" version is in the Wicker Man - do we know if it predated the film? Looking back at Nigel's version, my Welsh isn't good enough to read through the whole thing, but I did notice that "a'r bryn ar y ddaear, a'r ddaear ar ddim" translates literally not as "the hill in the valley, the valley by the sea" but as "the hill on the world, the world on nothing" which is pleasantly blunt. (But then, the Welsh R. Blunt.) |
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Subject: RE: Origins: rathlin bog From: Jack Campin Date: 10 Aug 09 - 05:15 PM The tune was known in the early 19th century in Scotland as "March to the Battlefield". Is the *tune* known from an older source from anywhere else? It doesn't sound like a very old one. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: rathlin bog From: GUEST,BUTTERFLY Date: 10 Aug 09 - 03:46 PM RARE BOG, THE RATTLIN' BOG, THE BOG DOWN IN THE VALLEY-O |
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Subject: RE: Origins: rathlin bog From: GUEST,Susan Potts Date: 11 Jul 08 - 05:49 AM Am interested to know if the Welsh form (Y Pren ar y Bryn) can be traced back to at least the 1500s: I suspect this kind of song goes back for ever but in Wales there was a cut off in the 1760s & it's hard to leap back over that. I want to find out if local composer Thomas Tomkins, b 1572 in S Davids, Pembrokeshire, would or could have known/ heard it. I'd be v glad to have any evidence of its existence then, therefore. V interesting to hear it's not only in this part of the world but across Asia etc, too: its being so widespread adds to view that it's been around a long time ... I can Sibelius the music & send it as an attachment to an email address but have never dealt with this form of thread before; perhaps I'm in the same boat as Nigel P. Susan Potts |
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Subject: RE: Origins: rathlin bog From: Celtaddict Date: 04 Oct 03 - 08:30 AM Here in Connecticut we sing what we refer to as the "James Joyce version" that involves from the feather there was a bed in the bed there was a man on the man there was a woman in the woman there was a child on the child there was an arm on the arm there was a hand in the hand there was a seed in the seed there was a tree I have always liked the full circle effect, the wonderful potentiality of the feather containing the bed and the seed containing the tree, and the fact that the woman is on top. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: rathlin bog From: Nigel Parsons Date: 03 Oct 03 - 08:34 PM Refresh (current interest) Nigel |
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Subject: RE: Origins: rathlin bog From: greg stephens Date: 22 Mar 03 - 06:22 PM Nothing to do with this thread, but I had a very nice lunch once with the archaologists at the dig at the Rathlin stone axe factory. Didn't see any bogs though. Robert the Bruce(or so the locals say) hung out on Rathlin a lot when things werent going well with his campaigns against the English. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: rathlin bog From: BUTTERFLY Date: 22 Mar 03 - 06:13 PM I would be fairly sure that Rattling Bog has nothing to do with Rathlin Island off the north coast of County Antrim, Northern Ireland. Apparently there must have been some bogs on the island many years ago (ie pre 20th century) but they have long been cut away for fuel. Some of the small lakes on the island may have resulted from peat cutting. Rathlin was known many hundreds of years ago (ie BC) to one of the Ancient Roman Historians (?Pliny, I think) possibly because there was an axe factory on the island (there is another at Tievebulliagh Mountain near Cushendall in North-east Antrim, not too many miles away). Such axe factories (using local flint, I believe, though I am no expert on this) were very rare, and presumably axes were in great demand all over Europe, for tools and weapons, etc. One old name for Rathlin is Raghery. A peninsula in Lough Neagh in North Armagh, also Northern Ireland, though now known as Raughlan, is marked on some oldish maps (ie 19th century) as "Rathlin Island". Not far away is Coney Island which some claim gave its name to Coney Island in New York, though I believe Coney Island in Co. Down, and Coney Island in Co. Sligo have also claimed this derivation. "Rattling" can be a term of approval, as in "rattling good yarn", but possibly (and this is just my speculation) in this context it might mean "quaking" or "shaking". A wet peat bog, such as one might find in a valley bottom, tends to quake or shake up and down if you stand still and jump up and down (be careful you don't sink into the water!). This is also speculation, but I wonder if the well known Yorkshire song "On Ilkley Moor Bat 'hat" (spelling may not be correct) could be regarded as a similar sort of cycle song. Anyway, just enjoy the songs and don't worry too much about the meanings, and don't take any of the speculations above about the meaning of "Rattling", etc, as gospel. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: rathlin bog From: Nigel Parsons Date: 22 Mar 03 - 11:32 AM With regards the above "Y Pren ar y Bryn" I am not ABC or MIDI competent, but if someone would like to complete the above by adding the tune, I will happily e-mail the three pages of music/words (in stave notation, Key of C, sop & alto, with piano accomp. Sop & Alto music also given in sol-fa) If so, please PM me. If not, I will try to attack the basic ABC instructions in the not too distant future. Nigel |
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Subject: RE: Origins: rathlin bog From: CapriUni Date: 22 Mar 03 - 01:46 AM From Blackcatter: I've added an additional verse past the "gleam in the eye of the bug" I don't know a version with that line in't... But I like it, and I like your extention. Where does it fit in? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: rathlin bog From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 21 Mar 03 - 08:43 PM "Rattling" in this context means "fine". Nothing to do with Rathlin Island. (I'd be very surprised if that has a bog anyway.) Incidentally the tune is the one generally used for the Dance "The Siege of Ennis" |
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Subject: RE: Origins: rathlin bog From: Blackcatter Date: 21 Mar 03 - 08:32 PM CapriUni, I've added an additional verse past the "gleam in the eye of the bug" (i)And in that gleam there was the Sun The rare Sun, the Rattlin' Sun (/i) To me it brings it back to the source of life for that tree. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: rathlin bog From: CapriUni Date: 21 Mar 03 - 12:34 PM Nigel Wrote: (translated from Welsh) 7, From the feathers came a bed, Oh fine bed ! A version of Rattlin' Bog that I learned in highschool, for our May Day celebration, went on from there: 8) and on that bed there was a maid 9) and with that maid there was a man, 10) and from that man there came a babe (I, personally, switch "maid" and "man" for obvious reasons) 11) and from the babe there grew a man 12) and on that man there was an arm 13) and on that arm there was a hand 14) and in that hand there was a seed, 15) and from the seed there grew a tree (a rare tree, a rattlin' tree!) So it really does go into an "Everlasting Circle" -- and is nearly everlasting to sing; depending on how fast I go, I time the song out at 15-20 minutes to sing all the verses... I play the song through my head when I'm stuck waiting somewhere. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: rathlin bog From: IanC Date: 21 Mar 03 - 07:20 AM BTW Just what's Irish about the use of the word "Rattling"in this context? It's the same as the use of the word in English Boys' Comics from the C19th on "A Rattling Good Yarn". As Cyril Poacher says: It's a rare bark, and a rattling bark, In a bog down in yon valley-o. :-) |
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Subject: RE: Origins: rathlin bog From: Nigel Parsons Date: 21 Mar 03 - 06:39 AM From the same source as above, English translation done by 'Llew Tegid': (first and last verse and first lines of intervening!) 1, What a grand old tree, Oh fine tree. The tree on the hill, the hill in the valley, The valley by the sea. Fine and fair was the hill where the old tree grew. 2, From the tree came a bough, Oh fine bough ! 3, On the bough came a nest, Oh fine nest ! 4, From the nest came an egg, Oh fine egg ! 5, From the egg came a bird, Oh fine bird ! 6, On the bird came feathers, Oh fone feathers ! 7, From the feathers came a bed, Oh fine bed ! The bed from the feathers, the feathers on the bird, The bird from the egg, The egg from the nest, The nest on the bough, The bough on the tree, The tree on the hill, the hill in the valley, And the valley by the sea. Fine and fair was the hill where the old tree grew. Nigel |
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Subject: ADD: Y Pren ar y Bryn From: Nigel Parsons Date: 21 Mar 03 - 06:27 AM Y PREN AR Y BRYN (the tree on the hill) ^^ (Traditional) 1, Ar y bryn 'roedd pren, O bren braf ! Y pren ar y bryn, a'r bryn ar y ddaear, a'r ddaear ar ddim. Ffeind a braf oedd y bryn lle tyfodd y pren 2, Ar y pren ddaeth cainc, O gainc braf ! Y gainc ar y pren, yr pren ar y bryn, y bryn ar y ddaear, a'r ddaear ar ddim. Ffeind a braf oedd y bryn lle tyfodd y pren. 3, Ar y gainc daeth nyth, O nyth braf ! Y nyth ar y gainc, y gainc ar y pren, y pren ar y bryn, Y bryn ar y ddaear, etc. 4, O'r nyth daeth wy, O wy braf ! Yr wy o'r nyth, y nyth ar y gainc, Y gainc ar y pren, y pren ar y bryn, Y bryn ar y ddaear, etc., 5, O'r wy daeth cyw, O gyw braf ! Y cyw o'r wy, yr wy o'r nyth, Y nyth ar y gainc, y gainc ar y pren, y pren ar y bryn, Y bryn ar y ddaear, etc., 6, Ar y cyw daeth plu, O blu braf ! Y plu o'r cyw, y cyw o'r wy, Y wy o'r nyth, y nyth ar y gainc, Y gainc ar y pren, y pren ar y bryn Y bryn ar y ddaear, etc., 7, O'r plu daeth gwely, O wely braf ! Y gwely o'r plu, y plu o'r cyw, Y cyw o'r wy, yr wy o'r nyth, y nyth o'r gainc, Y gainc o'r pren, y pren ar y bryn, Y bryn ar y ddaear, a'r ddaear ar ddim. Ffeind a braf oedd y bryn lle tyfodd y pren. Notes: copied from "Welsh Folk Songs part 1" J Lloyd Williams and L.D.Jones (Llew Tegid) The notes therein mention "Sung to Mr John Morris by Mr Richard Humphreys, Allt Goch, Festiniog... The idea has probably been borrowed from English sources but the air appears to be Welsh" (Welsh Folk Society Journal 1, p 41) NP |
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Subject: RE: Origins: rathlin bog From: Nigel Parsons Date: 21 Mar 03 - 05:45 AM Also a Traditional Welsh song "Y Pren ar y Bryn" (The Tree on the Hill). I may transcribe after checking availability elsewhere. Nigel |
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Subject: RE: Origins: rathlin bog From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 21 Mar 03 - 12:45 AM Rattling Bog is a localised Irish form of a song that's known in one form or another in a lot of countries across Europe. The family is often called The Tree in the Wood or The Everlasting Circle, and is sung to a good few different tunes and in a good few different languages, but the basic content and the circular form doesn't seem to vary all that much. As we know it now, it doesn't mean a great deal, but essentially the same content also turns up in Asia (for example), where it has been used in Zen parables and the like. That doesn't mean that it's ever had any particularly deep meaning in Europe, but the human fascination with such things certainly goes back a long way. "Rattling" in Ireland means exactly the same as it means everywhere else, so far as I know. "Rathlin" or "Raithlin" seems to be a misunderstanding, but not all that uncommon among people who have learnt this form of the song since it was popularised by the Clanceys and so on, without ever seeing it written down. The familiar tune is known in Ireland as a polka, in Scotland as a strathspey (John MacAlpin[e]) and in England as a North-West morris dance. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: rathlin bog From: Blackcatter Date: 20 Mar 03 - 11:57 PM I've always wondered about songs like this. Are there really and meanings or traditions behind it? Or - is t just a nonsense song? I mean, come on - didn't someone write it down from a tradition that goes back hundred or even thousands of years? Guys like me who love singing this type of song have probably singing these songs since the English had even heard of Ireland. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: rathlin bog From: Eire-IN Date: 20 Mar 03 - 08:59 PM Yes, I researched and had also found information on the island, but no reference to a bog on the island. However, it may be a given that there is one. So what does the Irish adjective rattlin' mean? I know that when the song is sung it sounds like and is probably written as Rattlin' Bog, but I thought that the island being Raithlin that the lyrics were just a slur |
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Subject: RE: Origins: rathlin bog From: George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca Date: 20 Mar 03 - 08:43 PM Raithlin Island is in Northern Ireland. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: rathlin bog From: George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca Date: 20 Mar 03 - 08:42 PM Do you mean "Rattlin' Bog"? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: rathlin bog From: BanjoRay Date: 20 Mar 03 - 08:40 PM I always thought it was Rattlin' Bog, with rattling being a very favorable Irish adjective. There doesn't seem to be a Rathlin in Ireland, or at least Multimap can't find one. Cheers Ray |
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Subject: Origins: rathlin bog From: GUEST,saehh Date: 20 Mar 03 - 08:26 PM Hello, So a lot of us know the song Rathlin Bog. However, could anyone tell me if there really is a Rathlin Bog. |
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