Origins: rathlin bog / Rattlin' Bog / Rattling Bog

Subject: RE: Origins: rathlin bog
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Mar 03 - 11:32 AM

With regards the above "Y Pren ar y Bryn" I am not ABC or MIDI competent, but if someone would like to complete the above by adding the tune, I will happily e-mail the three pages of music/words (in stave notation, Key of C, sop & alto, with piano accomp. Sop & Alto music also given in sol-fa)
If so, please PM me. If not, I will try to attack the basic ABC instructions in the not too distant future.

Nigel

Subject: RE: Origins: rathlin bog
From: CapriUni
Date: 22 Mar 03 - 01:46 AM

From Blackcatter: I've added an additional verse past the "gleam in the eye of the bug"

I don't know a version with that line in't... But I like it, and I like your extention.

Where does it fit in?

Subject: RE: Origins: rathlin bog
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 08:43 PM

"Rattling" in this context means "fine". Nothing to do with Rathlin Island. (I'd be very surprised if that has a bog anyway.)

Incidentally the tune is the one generally used for the Dance "The Siege of Ennis"

Subject: RE: Origins: rathlin bog
From: Blackcatter
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 08:32 PM

CapriUni,

I've added an additional verse past the "gleam in the eye of the bug"

(i)And in that gleam there was the Sun
The rare Sun, the Rattlin' Sun (/i)

To me it brings it back to the source of life for that tree.

Subject: RE: Origins: rathlin bog
From: CapriUni
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 12:34 PM

Nigel Wrote: (translated from Welsh)

7, From the feathers came a bed, Oh fine bed !

A version of Rattlin' Bog that I learned in highschool, for our May Day celebration, went on from there:

8) and on that bed there was a maid

9) and with that maid there was a man,

10) and from that man there came a babe (I, personally, switch "maid" and "man" for obvious reasons)

11) and from the babe there grew a man

12) and on that man there was an arm

13) and on that arm there was a hand

14) and in that hand there was a seed,

15) and from the seed there grew a tree (a rare tree, a rattlin' tree!)

So it really does go into an "Everlasting Circle" -- and is nearly everlasting to sing; depending on how fast I go, I time the song out at 15-20 minutes to sing all the verses... I play the song through my head when I'm stuck waiting somewhere.

Subject: RE: Origins: rathlin bog
From: IanC
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 07:20 AM

BTW

Just what's Irish about the use of the word "Rattling"in this context? It's the same as the use of the word in English Boys' Comics from the C19th on "A Rattling Good Yarn".

As Cyril Poacher says:

It's a rare bark, and a rattling bark,
In a bog down in yon valley-o.

:-)

Subject: RE: Origins: rathlin bog
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 06:39 AM

From the same source as above, English translation done by 'Llew Tegid': (first and last verse and first lines of intervening!)

1, What a grand old tree, Oh fine tree.
The tree on the hill, the hill in the valley,
The valley by the sea.
Fine and fair was the hill where the old tree grew.

2, From the tree came a bough, Oh fine bough !

3, On the bough came a nest, Oh fine nest !

4, From the nest came an egg, Oh fine egg !

5, From the egg came a bird, Oh fine bird !

6, On the bird came feathers, Oh fone feathers !

7, From the feathers came a bed, Oh fine bed !
The bed from the feathers, the feathers on the bird,
The bird from the egg, The egg from the nest,
The nest on the bough, The bough on the tree,
The tree on the hill, the hill in the valley,
And the valley by the sea.
Fine and fair was the hill where the old tree grew.

Nigel

Subject: ADD: Y Pren ar y Bryn
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 06:27 AM

Y PREN AR Y BRYN (the tree on the hill)
^^ (Traditional)

1, Ar y bryn 'roedd pren, O bren braf !
Y pren ar y bryn, a'r bryn ar y ddaear, a'r ddaear ar ddim.
Ffeind a braf oedd y bryn lle tyfodd y pren

2, Ar y pren ddaeth cainc, O gainc braf !
Y gainc ar y pren, yr pren ar y bryn, y bryn ar y ddaear, a'r ddaear ar ddim.
Ffeind a braf oedd y bryn lle tyfodd y pren.

3, Ar y gainc daeth nyth, O nyth braf !
Y nyth ar y gainc, y gainc ar y pren, y pren ar y bryn,
Y bryn ar y ddaear, etc.        

4, O'r nyth daeth wy, O wy braf !
Yr wy o'r nyth, y nyth ar y gainc,
Y gainc ar y pren, y pren ar y bryn, Y bryn ar y ddaear, etc.,

5, O'r wy daeth cyw, O gyw braf !
Y cyw o'r wy, yr wy o'r nyth,
Y nyth ar y gainc, y gainc ar y pren, y pren ar y bryn,
Y bryn ar y ddaear, etc.,
        
6, Ar y cyw daeth plu, O blu braf !
Y plu o'r cyw, y cyw o'r wy,
Y wy o'r nyth, y nyth ar y gainc,
Y gainc ar y pren, y pren ar y bryn
Y bryn ar y ddaear, etc.,        

7, O'r plu daeth gwely, O wely braf !
Y gwely o'r plu, y plu o'r cyw,
Y cyw o'r wy, yr wy o'r nyth, y nyth o'r gainc,
Y gainc o'r pren, y pren ar y bryn,
Y bryn ar y ddaear, a'r ddaear ar ddim.
Ffeind a braf oedd y bryn lle tyfodd y pren.

Notes: copied from "Welsh Folk Songs part 1" J Lloyd Williams and L.D.Jones (Llew Tegid)
The notes therein mention "Sung to Mr John Morris by Mr Richard Humphreys, Allt Goch, Festiniog... The idea has probably been borrowed from English sources but the air appears to be Welsh" (Welsh Folk Society Journal 1, p 41)

NP

Subject: RE: Origins: rathlin bog
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 05:45 AM

Also a Traditional Welsh song "Y Pren ar y Bryn" (The Tree on the Hill).
I may transcribe after checking availability elsewhere.
Nigel

Subject: RE: Origins: rathlin bog
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 12:45 AM

Rattling Bog is a localised Irish form of a song that's known in one form or another in a lot of countries across Europe. The family is often called The Tree in the Wood or The Everlasting Circle, and is sung to a good few different tunes and in a good few different languages, but the basic content and the circular form doesn't seem to vary all that much. As we know it now, it doesn't mean a great deal, but essentially the same content also turns up in Asia (for example), where it has been used in Zen parables and the like. That doesn't mean that it's ever had any particularly deep meaning in Europe, but the human fascination with such things certainly goes back a long way.

"Rattling" in Ireland means exactly the same as it means everywhere else, so far as I know. "Rathlin" or "Raithlin" seems to be a misunderstanding, but not all that uncommon among people who have learnt this form of the song since it was popularised by the Clanceys and so on, without ever seeing it written down. The familiar tune is known in Ireland as a polka, in Scotland as a strathspey (John MacAlpin[e]) and in England as a North-West morris dance.

Subject: RE: Origins: rathlin bog
From: Blackcatter
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 11:57 PM

I've always wondered about songs like this. Are there really and meanings or traditions behind it? Or - is t just a nonsense song?

I mean, come on - didn't someone write it down from a tradition that goes back hundred or even thousands of years? Guys like me who love singing this type of song have probably singing these songs since the English had even heard of Ireland.

Subject: RE: Origins: rathlin bog
From: Eire-IN
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 08:59 PM

Yes, I researched and had also found information on the island, but no reference to a bog on the island. However, it may be a given that there is one.

So what does the Irish adjective rattlin' mean?

I know that when the song is sung it sounds like and is probably written as Rattlin' Bog, but I thought that the island being Raithlin that the lyrics were just a slur

Subject: RE: Origins: rathlin bog
From:
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 08:43 PM

Raithlin Island is in Northern Ireland.

Subject: RE: Origins: rathlin bog
From:
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 08:42 PM

Do you mean "Rattlin' Bog"?

Rattlin' Bog
Rattlin' Bog Irish?

Subject: RE: Origins: rathlin bog
From: BanjoRay
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 08:40 PM

I always thought it was Rattlin' Bog, with rattling being a very favorable Irish adjective. There doesn't seem to be a Rathlin in Ireland, or at least Multimap can't find one.
Cheers
Ray

Subject: Origins: rathlin bog
From: GUEST,saehh
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 08:26 PM

Hello,
So a lot of us know the song Rathlin Bog.
However, could anyone tell me if there really is a Rathlin Bog.