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Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
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Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police' From: GUEST,Pete Peterson Date: 11 Apr 03 - 09:01 AM Hmmmm. . . that quote from Rolf Cahn bothered me. I DO like to sit (with two friends in particular) and sound just as much like the Carter Family (Little Moses and a lot of other things they did) as we can, thinking that if we can get the letter of the song right, the spirit will somehow descend on us. And sometimes it has. We do this more for ourselves than for an audience (usually this is in our own living room) and maybe that's the difference. Old time music (what I do most) is a participatory sport IMHO. |
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Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police' From: Fortunato Date: 10 Apr 03 - 09:26 AM Never forget your gospel according to Pogo: "We have met the enemy and he is us." |
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Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police' From: GUEST Date: 09 Apr 03 - 06:54 PM Ralphie, "Being found abusing a concertina while in charge of the said instrument" is NOT a criminal charge instituted by the Folk Police, with any form of mandatory punishment. It's a commendation. Your OBE (Order of British Ethnicity) will be in the post any day now. |
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Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police' From: DMcG Date: 09 Apr 03 - 07:29 AM Can I nominate old Thomas Wood of Kirby Malzeard? Lucy Broadwood, writing in 1893, quotes a Mr Bower as follows: Mr Bower says; "Taken down by me from old Thomas Wood, of Kirby Malzeard who sings and repeats it. But he will have nothing to do with the present Christmas sword-dancers or "Moowers," who, he says, 'Have never had the full of it, and don't dress properly, nor do it in any form, being but a bad, idle company; but were originally taught by him to make up the numbers at the Ripon Millenary Festival.'" |
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Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police' From: Ralphie Date: 09 Apr 03 - 07:27 AM Well, as an Englishman, I'm ashamed to plead guilty of the charge of abusing a concertina, by making it play Swedish, Norwegian, French, Belgium (Yes! Belgium!!) tunes, as well as English. (and a bit of Jazz too!) I hope the court will look kindly on me, and I accept any sentence that it sees fit..(And may the Lord have mercy on my soul) Ralphie |
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Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police' From: GUEST,noddy Date: 09 Apr 03 - 04:42 AM Why dont they arrest mr Howells. |
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Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police' From: mooman Date: 09 Apr 03 - 04:18 AM Ozmacca, A pretty flawless piece of intelligence work and, as a fugitive on the run myself commiting the traitorous offence of playing also jazz, blues, rock and latin music and, worse still, incorporating it into my folk and Irish music, I can confirm that they are among us, both cybersniffing out pockets of resistance here on the 'Cat and in physical person at Gatherings where their presence has no doubt coerced some to comply unwillingly with "the rules". A further hint for identifying the chief officers and enforcers. Increasing rank is usually inversely proportional to the size of the pocket book, which may often be secreted in the pocket of the leather waistcoat and directly proportional to the hardness of pencil used. This is so that such senior officers may make their intelligence reports of any infractions in tiny writing in easily hidden form. Must run and hide... moo |
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Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police' From: GUEST,ozmacca Date: 08 Apr 03 - 11:54 PM HuwG - Sorry, but in the interests of protecting the identity of these selfless guardians of the traditional etc etc etc etc, I am unable to give you a link to an image. However, in the interests of furthering popular recognition of the members of this etc etc etc, let the mind's eye conjure up this picture of the Royal Orstrilian (Light) Folk service, or R.O.L.F.s as they have come to be called. There are three main arms of service, dedicated to maintaining the purity of Instrumental, Vocal and Dance customs, though it is common to find officers from one branch serving with distinction in other fields. The distinctive hat (slouch, tatty) is worn on many official ocassions, with badges from Folf Festivals and Folk Clubs etc attached. These indicate, not arms of service as may be expected, but years of membership in the force. On special parades, such as in the presence of HRH the Q and PP the D of E, or their viceregal deputies, a number of corks are suspended from the brim. The bottles from which these corks are drawn are indicative of rank, and the number of corks indicate the officer's ability to sound authoritative on any subject regardless of actual evidence. The sleeveless black waistcoat is usually worn unbuttoned except in the presence of Morris dancers, when it is fully buttoned. The shirt is white for other ranks, and checked for field officers. Where the shirt is striped, this denotes that the wearer is seconded to special duties with the Multi-Ethnic Secret Service, and the colours of the stripes denote the national heritage in the care of the officer.The shirt sleeves are rolled up above the elbow in all but the most inclement weather. The trousers are usually black or brown corduroy, depending on the arm of service but denim jeans are sometimes seen when the officer is on plain clothes duty. Braces are part of the standard combat webbing, and are often seen in bright colours to indicate the arm od service. Boots are usually elastic sided and black, but most officers tend to leave these in natural camouflage condition, except when on special parades. In a number of active service situations, trainers have been issued, and these tend to be teated in a similar manner. In every situation, the officer carries a notebook and pen or pencil, with which to record instances of failure to comply with regulations, and some officers may be seen with tape recorders. When an officer so armed is encountered, the potential perpetrator is strongly advised to take one of two courses of action. Firstly, pack up the instruments and depart without singing, or secondly, ply the officer with two things, questions on the recognised standard regulated version of the piece, and strong drink. I believe that the local uniform may vary from place to place, but these protectors of our traditions will continue to stand against the evil forces of polluting influence for as long as somebody will listen to them. |
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Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police' From: toadfrog Date: 08 Apr 03 - 11:20 PM Well, in the old German Democratic Republic they had the Volkspolizei. So perhaps it's something Teutonic. |
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Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police' From: Folkiedave Date: 08 Apr 03 - 06:19 PM One of my favourite groups............wished I could get them together...............legendary round here.......and have donated a track to the Holmfirth Festival CD for the 25th Anjniversary of the festival. Dave |
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Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police' From: GUEST,Martin Ryan Date: 08 Apr 03 - 11:33 AM Dunno about "The Folk Police" but here in Ireland we have a very musical V(o)ice Squad! Regards |
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Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police' From: HuwG Date: 08 Apr 03 - 04:56 AM GUEST, ozmacca, could you provide a link to an image of the uniform ? As far as I know, the uniform of the British Folk Police Service (when worn on ceremonial or formal occasions) combines a black tunic, jackboots and peaked cap, with the check shirt, corduroy trousers and straggly ginger beard of an archtypical Somerset folkie. The members of the service are known to their oppressed victims as, "The Black and Tats", from this mixture of clothing. |
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Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police' From: ET Date: 08 Apr 03 - 02:40 AM Bringing the debate round to my version of the Folk Police - the hard working and dedicated members of the Local Authority Licensing Team, who give there time in the evenings freely (well at overtime rates plus traveling expenses and a hospitality charge), they are going to flourish under the new Licensing Act-checking darts players for anyone watching, checking for entertainment licences etc. You may be interested to know one one such of these people who recently raided a local pub and ordered the "session" into a small room, ordered the licence holder to form a club, ordered him to insert frosted glass incase we were seen through the door, argued with a fire officer who said the frosted glass obscured the fire starting when banjos were layed to fast, and then failed to turn up the following week when the BBC turned up with cameras. We must be indulging in one of the most dangerous hobbies in the world me thinks! |
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Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police' From: Folkiedave Date: 07 Apr 03 - 03:20 PM I would hate to think I was one of the "folk police" and Eliza as often in these cases is bang on. The only suggestion I make to younger folkies after a long time of experience in folk music is "listen to the tradition". Since I am prepared to wager that Martin and Norma passed on that advice as it was passed to them, then I reckon that is OK. Blatant commercial plug. Homlfirth Festival has a great reputation for promoting young people and this year is no exception and we will continue to do so whilst ever they keep coming forward. Kate Rusby sang a Tanita Tikaram song for her first public peformance there. We look forward not backwards. Regards, Dave Eyre www.holmfirthfestival.com www.collectorsfolk.co.uk |
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Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police' From: harvey andrews Date: 07 Apr 03 - 02:49 PM Good post Eliza. I remember your mother as a vibrant young thing in the vibrant young Watersons! Judging by her recent work the voice is NOT fading. However, this lyric from 2000 was written to express much of what you posted FADING VOICES FADING VOICES ALL AROUND STILL I HEAR THEIR JOYFUL SOUND ONCE THEY STOOD BESIDE ME WHEN WE WERE YOUNG AND SINGING THEN SONGS THAT CAME LIKE SHOOTING STARS TO SHINE THEIR LIGHT ON OUR GUITARS WORDS THAT SET OUR SOULS AFLAME THINKING ALL OUR LIVES A GAME FADING VOICES ALL AROUND STILL I HEAR THEIR JOYFUL SOUND THE ROAD, THE GIRLS, THE SUN AT DAWN THE TUNES THAT IN THAT HOUR WERE BORN SIDE BY SIDE WE TOOK THE STAGE AND NEVER THOUGHT WE'D REACH THIS AGE SOME JUST GAVE IT ALL AWAY AND LET THE BOTTLE WIN THE DAY SOME JUST WATCHED THEIR SPOTLIGHT DIE TILL DARKNESS TOOK THEM FROM OUR EYE FADING VOICES ALL AROUND STILL I HEAR THEIR JOYFUL SOUND OLD SOLDIERS NOW AS YOUNG ONES COME NEW TALES TO TELL NEW CHORDS TO STRUM NAMES THAT ONCE WE HELD SO DEAR ARE UNKNOWN TO THE YOUNG ONES HERE BUT FADING VOICES ALL AROUND STILL I HEAR THEIR JOYFUL SOUND ONCE THEY STOOD BESIDE ME WHEN WE WERE YOUNG AND SINGING THEN OLD SOLDIERS NOW, OUR TORCHES BURN STILL BRIGHT BUT TAKE THEM IT'S YOUR TURN |
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Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police' From: GUEST,ozmacca Date: 07 Apr 03 - 06:20 AM Why has no-one leapt to the defence of this dedicated self-effacing group of men and women who continue to ceaselessly protect their fellows from the insidious threat of pollution of our mighty traditions? Have you no shame? Have you no sense of gratitude that we all owe our hisory, our culture, our very identity, to these unsung heroes of the folk scene. For centuries un-numbered these selfless guardians of purity have continued to ensure that the cream of our heritage has remained unsullied, and their struggle continues to this day. They deserve our thanks and our grateful orisons in their praise. It is time for the Folk Police to step forth from the shadows in which they have too long reamined, and to stand tall, proud, and glad to be the defenders of the traditions they serve so well! And if that seems too much to ask, just remember that anybody who says the music should do something that you don't want it to must be one of their number.... including you if you don't agree with the stuff somebody else happens to like today. PS, Do you like the uniform? Smart eh? |
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Subject: RE: Leonard Cohen & the folk/jazz police From: Hester Date: 06 Apr 03 - 03:51 PM Harry wrote: >>>Funny...we never hear of the Blues police or the Jazz police <<< And then Longarm coincidentally told an amusing Leonard Cohen anectdote. So, I can't help posting these pertinent Leonard Cohen lyrics: "Jazz Police" Can you tell me why the bells are ringing? Nothing's happened in a million years I've been sitting here since Wednesday morning Wednesday morning can't believe my ears Jazz police are looking through my folders Jazz police are talking to my niece Jazz police have got their final orders Jazzer, drop your axe, it's Jazz police! Jesus taken serious by the many Jesus taken joyous by a few Jazz police are paid by J. Paul Getty Jazzers paid by J. Paul Getty II Jazz police I hear you calling Jazz police I feel so blue Jazz police I think I'm falling, I'm falling for you Wild as any freedom loving racist I applaud the actions of the chief Tell me now oh beautiful and spacious Am I in trouble with the Jazz police? Jazz police are looking through my folders ... They will never understand our culture They'll never understand the Jazz police Jazz police are working for my mother Blood is thicker margarine than grease Let me be somebody I admire Let me be that muscle down the street Stick another turtle on the fire Guys like me are mad for turtle meat Jazz police I hear you calling... Cheers, Hester |
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Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police' From: Jeri Date: 06 Apr 03 - 02:56 PM Eliza, you must have very unique perspective as a second generation performer. You can see parts of 'the big picture' most of us can't. Very insightful, that part about what I read as the grabbing of the baton. If the excitement of new 'voices' and styles couldn't exist, there wouldn't be much point in performing. I can only look at this from a non-performing perspective. We used to get together and primarily talk about the music itself, and now frequently discuss recordings, shows and performers' versions of song. Maybe it's because the songs have been a part of us for so long they aren't news, but what a musician does with them will always be news. I try to look for music I like, whether it's a new, unusual arrangement or a well done, simple version of a song. Reacting to changes or a lack of them would make me miss out on a lot. Classifications are fine, as long as we use them as descriptions and not rules. Just my opinion. |
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Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police' From: Big Mick Date: 06 Apr 03 - 01:39 PM I don't know how old you are, Eliza, but you are wise. Very good observation, both on the older and younger folkies. Congratulations. All the best, Mick |
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Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police' From: Art Thieme Date: 06 Apr 03 - 01:05 PM Eliza, Understood----and appreciated. Art |
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Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police' From: GUEST,Eliza C Date: 06 Apr 03 - 12:50 PM Art, No I haven't read his book, but I know Scott, he's a nice man. I think that the frustration that you feel is down to the fact that many people of your age (I am assuming you are sort of my parents' age) built the folk scene as it is as young, vibrant poeple, and therefore find it hard to accept that thing you love changing. And I don't blame you, I imagine I would feel the same way. It isn't that nobody appreciates you, it's just that we come from the priveleged position of having most of the hard graft already done and a scene at our disposal-so we will try to improve it on our own terms to express our own excitement, try to expand it to include our friends and peers just as you did. My Mum finds the folk scene bewildering these days, and has as little to do with it as she can. She still loves the music and the ethos though, it's just too commercial for her I think. cheers, eliza |
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Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police' From: Art Thieme Date: 05 Apr 03 - 11:33 PM Eliza, Have you seen Scott Alarik's book called DEEP COMMUNITY yet? One of the chapters is an article he did on you for the Boston Globe---. That book mentions "the folk police" in several places. Interesting. There is an article in there that Scott wrote back in '86 about my winding up doing records for Folk Legacy and Sandy Paton. But leafing through that book I can see how very much this folk scene differs from the one I knew and was part of 40 years ago. That kind of morphing and change can leave some of us older folkies wondering why what we cared about so much is overlooked so easily by modern folkies. Trying to hold onto what we found to be of value maybe makes us seem to don the garb of folk police. Does you dad and mother ever feel sprt of passed by on occasion?? It would be good to hear Martin's take on all this, but I doubt he'd care to get into this banter. There is no real point to it---except to vent ones frustrations. All the best, Art Thieme |
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Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police' From: JennyO Date: 04 Apr 03 - 09:49 AM I just refreshed this thread for GUEST, allen woodpecker, from the Eggs and Sessions thread, because I thought he might feel at home here. Fortunately I don't meet many like him in sessions. |
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Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police' From: Alasdair Date: 31 Mar 03 - 07:58 AM Think "Fashion Police" and apply the same concept to folk. Also a v good track on the Peatbog Faeries' latest album Al |
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Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police' From: HuwG Date: 31 Mar 03 - 07:34 AM At one Open Session I regularly attend, someone approached the players after one set and said, "You know you only played twelve bars instead of fourteen in that last round ?" The guitarist turned to him, jerked his thumb in the direction of the pub's rear car park and said, "Complaints Department out there, mate!" Perhaps not the most diplomatic reply, but the best put-down I have ever heard. |
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Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police' From: denise:^) Date: 31 Mar 03 - 01:14 AM I've always thought of the "folk police" as the folks who: ~come up to you after your performance, and tell you that you did it "wrong," because that's not the way "______" sang it on her album; ~tell you that what YOU do CAN'T be folk music, because it's different from what THEY do... In other words, the narrow-minded, the intolerant, the self-righteous...those who KNOW the way things 'should be,' and are ready, at the drop of a hat, to tell you so! They're around in every walk of life-- In our walk, we call them folk police! Denise:^) |
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Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police' From: Marje Date: 30 Mar 03 - 01:09 PM Be a good name for a band, wouldn't it? I think the "Folk Police" exist only in the minds of those who have found their contribution or performance wasn't welcomed as much as they'd hoped. Rather than think hard about whether they were being insensitive to the mood of the club or session, or maybe whether they're just crap, they lay all the blame on a mythical enemy. Maybe someone even told them that this particular event was set up for traditional song, or English or Irish music, or just tunes, or just songs, or chorus songs, or unaccompanied or unamplfied music, and pointed out that their item didn't fit. In any other genre of music, it would be seen as perfectly reasonable to have a particular focus, but somehow in folk music, some people assume they can do whatever they like, as badly as they like, at every event, and then whinge "Folk Police" when it doesn't go down well. |
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Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police' From: toadfrog Date: 29 Mar 03 - 03:41 PM Better question. Where are the folk police, and how do I join?? If they exist, I'm for them! |
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Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police' From: Richard Bridge Date: 29 Mar 03 - 02:59 PM This give me an idea. If Howells an Jowells (whose names rhyme with "bowels") get their way in the house of commons, can we all argue about folk music until the BBC and the Arts Council decide to subsidise us? It'd be whole lot easier than trying to keep an unsubsidised club solvent! |
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Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police' From: greg stephens Date: 29 Mar 03 - 06:05 AM Yes, I had a look at that thread, seemed to be the usual sort of discussion of whether a group can be classified as bluegrass or not. Don't see where "police" comes into it. People often vaguely wonder if spiders are a kind of insect, or if sponges are plants or animals: are we to call such people "biology police"? Classification is always an interesting and difficult area, but not, to my way of thinking, very similar to criminal investigation and law enforcement. |
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Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police' From: Santa Date: 29 Mar 03 - 05:50 AM Went there - looked more like an over-indulgent fan unable to accept that not everybody thought his favourite band the greatest thing since sliced bread. Not "Real" Folk Police - who wouldn't accept bluegrass as folk music anyway. |
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Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police' From: michaelr Date: 29 Mar 03 - 01:08 AM You can witness the Folk Police conducting an investigation in this thread. Cheers, Michael |
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Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police' From: Benjamin Date: 27 Mar 03 - 01:05 AM I've recieved plenty of crap about not really writing any of my own material and also rejecting some material that doesn't move me. I think the best answer I could give is that it's people's personal tastes combined with ethnocenterism. I personaly think it's a shame when people reject older material. I believe that history is one of the greatest lessons music can teach us today. Mike (Northumbria) it's nice to hear from you again! I'm still enjoying that African tape! Benjamin |
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Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police' From: GUEST,Eliza Carthy Date: 26 Mar 03 - 10:33 AM My Dad nearly had his guitar taken off him at US Customs because he couldn't produce a receipt for it (nineteenfiftywhat?) and therefore couldn't prove he wasn't going to sell it. Nothing to do with the Folk Police though. I don't believe in them, although I do get a lot of stick from people who don't like what I do!!! cheers, ec x |
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Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police' From: M.Ted Date: 26 Mar 03 - 01:11 AM JohnP, Truth be told, when it comes to Bulgarian Music, the folk police turn out to be the KGB. Once, I was with friends who wanted to buy instruments from some musicians in a touring Bulgarian performing group. We were told that the transaction had to be made discreetly , out of eye and earshot of the KGB agents who traveled with the group. Several of us sat in the coffeeshop of the hotel while the instrument buyers snuck off. By odd coincidence, the KGB group came in moments after we did, sat next to us--we were a bit nervous. Even more oddly, when we got the discreet high sign that the transaction had been made, and the instruments hidden in our car--the KGB group casually finished their coffees and went back to the rooms. Turned out that the KGB agents needed to be able to tell customs that their instruments were brought into the country for playing, not for sale. |
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Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police' From: sharyn Date: 25 Mar 03 - 10:06 PM I usually refer to "the folk police" when I knowingly break an unspoken rule, such as singing a song without a chorus at a gathering where chorus songs are favored (but where other songs are not expressly forbidden). When I use the expression, it's just a joke. |
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Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police' From: GUEST,Longarm Date: 24 Mar 03 - 09:30 PM A story re this thread. Back in the eary seventies a new "traditional' singers club opened in my town(Colchester, England) When a singer got up and announced he was going to sing a Lenard Cohen song an irate organiser loudly said 'english only here mate' to which the singer instantly replied 'it is in fucking english'!!!!! |
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Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police' From: Folkiedave Date: 24 Mar 03 - 08:00 PM Certainly as someone who has a bit to do with a festival and the booking of artists. I have to balance a number of things. My own personal tastes go along the lines of Watersons, Planxty, MacColl and Seeger, Fury Bros and you can now see where I am coming from. BUT I also like Steeleye and some Fairport. I also have to cater for new singers, up and coming singers, singer-songwriters, shanty groups, cross-over groups, ballad singers, traditional specialists, folk-rock, blues and so on, the ingredients that together make (to my mind) a good festival. Any one of these can look at my choice of artists and say - he has not booked .......my favourite artiste. "Folk policeman". I have had people who said they won't come because: not enough trad/Celtic/Ballads/singer songwriters etc. I have had people say there is not enough roots music despite two groups from Africa, etc. No matter who I book I can guarantee crticism. I have been asked for Bruce Cockburn, Three City Four etc. Fortunately I love it and will defend my choices. See www.holmfirthfestival.com Dave I do hope not. |
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Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police' From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 24 Mar 03 - 07:37 PM Now which is more likely to annoy peopel who feel like getting annoyed about such things? Playing traditional material in a non-traditional way, or playing non-traditional material in a traditional way? I'd guess the former. |
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Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police' From: Steve Mullinax Date: 24 Mar 03 - 07:20 PM I am happy to report that I just returned from the Portland Folklore Society's "Singtime Frolics" camp. Despite representation from many of the warring camps referred to in this thread, the gathering was remarkably peaceable. We have traditionalists of several stripes, singer-songwriters, country & western fans, shanty singers, political activists, ... We had workshops on early country, playing guitar up-the-neck, even "Sing-Along with Goofy" (Disney songs)! Even with (one might assume) all the potential hostility, all differences were somehow resolved without the intervention of the folk police. No arrests, no injuries, no wounded pride. The community survives. Steve |
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Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police' From: Don Firth Date: 24 Mar 03 - 02:20 PM My method of dealing with the folk police is to point out to them that I am not in their jurisdiction. Although I am what is generically referred to as a "folk singer" because I sing folk songs to the accompaniment of a guitar, I do not consider myself to be a folk singer. I was born in a big city and raised in another big city. My parents weren't farmers or miners or seafarers (although my father loved fishing—for sport), they were health professionals. And neither of them were musicians, although my mother took some piano lessons when she was a girl. My musical background came initially from listen to the radio: classical, pop, Broadway show tunes, etc. The first folk songs I recall hearing were one Sunday afternoon on a radio program hosted by Burl Ives, where he gave the history of the Erie Canal in song and story. I also recall hearing the records of Susan Reed and Richard Dyer-Bennet. I began actively participating when a girl I was going with in 1952 inherited her grandmother's old parlor guitar, picked up a book of folk songs, and started teaching herself. Since then, I've taken voice lessons, classic guitar lessons, studied music theory, took every course my local university English department offered relating to folk songs and balladry, and read widely on the subject. I learned songs from records and CDs and from a large library of song books such as One Hundred English Folk Songs by Cecil J. Sharp and Folk Songs of North America by Alan Lomax, occasionally learning a song from a live person (who undoubtedly learned it from sources similar to mine). I have performed professionally, doing recitals, concerts, television, coffeehouses, and folk festivals. Now, I sing because I enjoy it (but I will accept pay if offered). I am not above changing a word or two in a song if I think it sings better that way, and sometimes I will take two or more versions of a song and meld them, taking what I consider to be the best bits from each, possibly rewriting a little to make the result both historically and poetically consistent. I do this rarely and carefully, and, I hope, knowledgeably, but even so, in some circles, of course, this is regarded as a hanging offense. But I subscribe to the principles laid down by Rolf Cahn: The most ticklish question still results from that awful word "Folk Music", which gives the erroneous impression that there is one body of music with one standard texture, dynamic, and history. Actually, the term today covers areas that are only connected in the subtlest terms of general feeling and experience. A United States cowboy song has less connection with a bloody Zulu tale than it has to "Western Pop" music; a lowdown blues fits less with Dutch South African melody than with George Gershwin.I don't see that calling oneself a "folk singer" endows one with any special knowledge, privilege, panache, or general saintliness. I suspect that the vast majority of those who do call themselves folk singers have a background quite similar to my own, and can lay no more claim to "ownership" or "custodianship" of these songs than I can. I don't just sing folk songs. I reserve the right to sing any song I that appeals to me—pop songs, Broadway show tunes, operatic arias, even Don Firth I do, however, try to have sufficient taste and sense to appropriateness not to sing a Scottish border ballad at a chantey-sing, or try to bung an Appalachian love song into a Robert Burns festival. You have to use your head. |
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Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police' From: John P Date: 24 Mar 03 - 01:39 PM Yes, the folk police exist. No, people who are responsible for booking music at a club or a festival and stick to their standards are not the folk police. I have been accosted by the folk police several times, usually because I play traditional music in what some consider to be non-traditional ways. Never mind that everyone who isn't a confirmed old-fogey traditionalist thinks I'm terribly, boringly traditional. An example of the folk police: We were playing at a coffeehouse, with a nice stage and a good audience. We finished the first set with a traditional Bulgarian tune played on the hurdy-gurdy and guitar. As soon as we stopped, audience members came up to talk about the music and the instruments and everyone was having a really good time. Suddenly a loud voice next to me interrupted the conversation I was having to say, "I hope you don't go around telling people you play Balkan music. That's not how they do it!" Needless to say, the joy of the moment was rained on for everyone. I made some lame response like, "Yes, that is how they play it, because you just heard it played that way", and tried to get the feeling in the room back on track. When they speak to me privately, I tell them to mind their own business and ignore them. When they publicly impose themselves on me and my audience they are way out of line. This thing I liked best about this particular encounter was that a week later we were doing the same tune in the women's handbag section of the local department store when an elderly Bulgarian woman walked up and said with surprise and (I think) delight: "But -- that is Bulgarian!" Here is my definition of Folk Police: Those who don't have any official responsibility to do so telling you that you are playing music wrong. John Peekstok |
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Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police' From: MikeofNorthumbria Date: 24 Mar 03 - 12:54 PM "Those who cannot learn from history are condemned to repeat it." George Santayana. Haven't we been here before folks? Does anybody else remember the jazz wars in 1950s Britain? Back then, some jazz musicians were passionately devoted to freezing "their" music as it was played at a particular time and place (New Orleans in 1915 – Chicago in 1925 – New York in 1945 – take your choice). They regarded musicians who played it any other way as heretics and blasphemers. Other jazzers claimed - equally passionately - that much as they loved and respected the tradition, they wanted to adapt it to changing times and tastes. They dismissed all who did not agree with them as dullards and bigots. And then there were a lot of hard-working, hard-up musicians, happy to play whatever would earn them a living. If the public enjoyed a simplified caricature of real jazz as a background for drinking, dancing, socialising and seducing, then so be it. Those who complained were just a bunch of amateurs, who didn't understand the basic principles of the entertainment industry. For far too many people, this three-cornered dog-fight became more important than the music it was supposed to be about. Round about the same time, the public began to lose interest in both the argument and the music . Attendances declined, clubs closed, and the music press turned its attention to the next big thing (a rock band named after some insects, I seem to remember). Fortunately, certain people in the BBC and the Arts Council woke up to the fact that Jazz was "Culture", and therefore deserving of support and subsidy – otherwise it might have disappeared altogether. Might this story be a useful warning for the folk music community? Wassail! |
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Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police' From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 24 Mar 03 - 12:20 PM The irony of The Hungry Child is that the person the Young Tradition thought had written it had in fact just translated a (genuine) traditional song from German into English; she may perhaps have made up her own tune. The "folk drag" Heather Wood referred to was actually closer to being right than she was. Shows the perils of making assumptions about people and about traditional music, perhaps; as well as trying to be too clever. Details: Lyr Req: MOTHER I'M HUNGRY Still, they were very young; and most of us thought at that age that we knew it all. |
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Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police' From: Dave Wynn Date: 24 Mar 03 - 11:56 AM Good thread this but everyones said it all. Spot |
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Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police' From: DMcG Date: 24 Mar 03 - 09:43 AM The Young Tradition tell the story of how one particular song, "The Hungry Child", was written deliberately to encourage a folk-policeman to praise its authenticity, and be subsequently deflated. (Its a good song, though, in its own right) |
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Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police' From: Sam L Date: 24 Mar 03 - 09:22 AM Now trad police are not exactly the same as folk police. I once played lute at a wedding with a couple of people, and one piece had me playing only melody lines, I was going to use a pick. No picks! They wouldn't have it. But picks are traditional, they were used, and I think it sounds better a little brighter. No, but back then, I was told, they'd just use a piece of tortoise shell, or whatever. ...Huh? I suppose I could've pushed the point, but didn't. Tortoise shell was a luxury material, not a piece of whatever, and I still don't know what the attitude was all about. |
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Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police' From: Ralphie Date: 24 Mar 03 - 07:18 AM HOW TO DISARM A FOLK NAZI !!! Having performed our version of "Amphitrite" at a gig a while ago, a well known "policeman" enquired as to the source of the tune that we had used for the lyrics, because he had never heard that version before, and had really enjoyed it!! When I told him James had written it in his kitchen in the autumn of 2001..... He retreated to lick his wounds! Maybe I should tell his superiors, and get him reprimanded?? Regards Ralphie |
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Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police' From: GUEST,noddy Date: 24 Mar 03 - 04:36 AM THEY ARE OUT THERE. They will get you if...... you do not sing ALL the verse all84 of them in the correct order with no mistakes ,no wrong words or nuances. |
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Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police' From: jonm Date: 24 Mar 03 - 03:28 AM I regard the playing of music as a sharing experience. I'm not enough of a virtuoso to believe that anyone would want to listen to me play without liking the song. I tend to introduce songs on the basis that I'm going to play something I really enjoy and want to share it with the audience. This tends to go down well, and I've got away with everything from straight trad. in acoustic "rock" nights to acoustic rock songs in trad folk clubs. I tend not to let on if there's a song of my own in there, but it will fit in with what I'm playing. One of mine has been taken and is being spread around, interestingly, as a traditional song. I play a lot for morris, mostly concertina, but I made the effort to learn to play most of the original instruments the tunes were collected on (pipe and tabor, fiddle etc.). This gives me a feel for the distinctive characteristics of the instrument and the way it affects how you play the tune. I've looked at Sharp's notations for the tunes and how those distinctive characteristics are evident, and how often the musician played the same tune more than once and it was different each time Sharp notated it. There are also the "morris police" who will criticise you for not playing the exact version from the Black Book (in some cases Lionel Bacon applied his own licence and that is not the tune as Sharp collected it!), just as they will criticise the dancing for tiny departures from their accepted version of the norm. I have even had a man stand in front of me and tell me I'm playing the wrong version of the tune, while the dance was going on! He was most unamused when I told him his own instrument (melodeon) is untraditional and that, surely, all the Adderbury tunes were collected in F so why are you playing them in G? I believe we cannot preserve traditions in music or dance by pickling them. The music must be given a chance to evolve and we must all accept that some of the resulting evolutions may not conform to our own tastes and ideals. There are plenty of those who are living in the past and trying to perpetuate the style of folk music and folk club that existed in their own heyday. There are also those who, given one book or one world view, cannot accept that other world views should be allowed to exist. |
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