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BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15

GUEST,Liberal Conservative Democrat Republican 23 Mar 03 - 03:16 PM
Deda 23 Mar 03 - 03:57 PM
Greg F. 23 Mar 03 - 04:57 PM
catspaw49 23 Mar 03 - 06:02 PM
Forum Lurker 23 Mar 03 - 06:43 PM
catspaw49 23 Mar 03 - 06:50 PM
Gareth 23 Mar 03 - 06:55 PM
Greg F. 23 Mar 03 - 09:33 PM
GUEST,Norton1 23 Mar 03 - 10:10 PM
Coyote Breath 24 Mar 03 - 12:17 AM
Blackcatter 24 Mar 03 - 12:47 AM
DougR 24 Mar 03 - 01:55 AM
Wolfgang 24 Mar 03 - 08:14 AM
Troll 24 Mar 03 - 10:36 AM
katlaughing 24 Mar 03 - 10:45 AM
Greg F. 24 Mar 03 - 11:12 AM
Bill D 24 Mar 03 - 11:16 AM
Greg F. 24 Mar 03 - 11:22 AM
GUEST,Liberal Conservative Democrat Republican 24 Mar 03 - 11:54 AM
DougR 24 Mar 03 - 12:26 PM
katlaughing 24 Mar 03 - 01:12 PM
Greg F. 24 Mar 03 - 02:01 PM
GUEST,Norton1 24 Mar 03 - 07:15 PM
GUEST, heric 24 Mar 03 - 07:33 PM
Greg F. 24 Mar 03 - 09:31 PM
GUEST 24 Mar 03 - 10:27 PM
GUEST, heric 24 Mar 03 - 10:27 PM
Wolfgang 25 Mar 03 - 04:09 AM
Kim C 25 Mar 03 - 10:07 AM
vietvet'67 25 Mar 03 - 11:39 AM
posterchild 25 Mar 03 - 11:44 AM
Bagpuss 25 Mar 03 - 11:46 AM
CarolC 25 Mar 03 - 12:17 PM
posterchild 25 Mar 03 - 12:24 PM
CarolC 25 Mar 03 - 12:31 PM
Wolfgang 25 Mar 03 - 12:42 PM
artbrooks 25 Mar 03 - 01:00 PM
GUEST,Norton1 25 Mar 03 - 01:05 PM
Greg F. 25 Mar 03 - 01:30 PM
posterchild 25 Mar 03 - 02:08 PM
GUEST,Forum Lurker 25 Mar 03 - 02:12 PM
posterchild 25 Mar 03 - 02:50 PM
Pseudolus 25 Mar 03 - 03:01 PM
artbrooks 25 Mar 03 - 03:03 PM
vietvet'67 25 Mar 03 - 03:57 PM
DougR 25 Mar 03 - 05:39 PM
Greg F. 25 Mar 03 - 06:32 PM
Blackcatter 25 Mar 03 - 07:12 PM
Forum Lurker 25 Mar 03 - 11:02 PM
vietvet'67 26 Mar 03 - 06:11 AM

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Subject: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: GUEST,Liberal Conservative Democrat Republican
Date: 23 Mar 03 - 03:16 PM

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20030323/ts_nm/iraq_kuwait_attack_dc_10

No comment.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Deda
Date: 23 Mar 03 - 03:57 PM

Here's a blicky.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Seems there was a mole in the force.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Mar 03 - 04:57 PM

So? Fragging is something new?


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Mar 03 - 06:02 PM

Not too new an idea at all........Like friendly fire and accidents, it just wasn't much "covered" before. I have no idea how many Iraqi casualties have been suffered, but the Brits are certainly taking one helluva' hit from US! Some of the horrors of war that weren't mentioned as much in the past.

I haven't heard any certain word that the man in question with the 101st is Muslim.....but would it actually make a difference?

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 23 Mar 03 - 06:43 PM

catspaw49-I'm afraid it would. It might not (we can hope) affect the outcome of the court-martial, but it would certainly hurt Muslims in popular opinion, and likely in governmental policy, however unofficially.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Mar 03 - 06:50 PM

might....so we could be more paranoid huh? Hard to believe, but you're probably right.......

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Gareth
Date: 23 Mar 03 - 06:55 PM

Sorry - These things happen in war, we wish they didn't, but they do.

Gareth


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Mar 03 - 09:33 PM

Why should the religion of this guy should make any difference whatsoever?- I don't recall the American soldiers in Viet Nam who fragged their comrades being condemned because of their various religious affiliations. This sort of thing goes on in ANY war.

There are vastly more non-Muslims opposed to Bush's 'war' than there are Muslims.

The anti-Muslim paranoia in the U.S. is reaching the proportions of mass psychosis; the Bushite propaganda machine has succeeded in turning the 'war' into a Christian Crusade after all! There's a great deal more under threat from fundamentalist Christians in the US than from any Muslim!


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: GUEST,Norton1
Date: 23 Mar 03 - 10:10 PM

Guess we should call you paranoid also eh Greg? I don't think the fragging had anything to do with religion. The individual who threw the grenades was someone who had been reprimanded for poor performance and was being held back from the fighting. His intent was to get even with the officer that caused his stellar career to fail (at least in his way of thinking) would be more my guess. Hopefully they will just haul his sorry ass out and shoot him.

I would however agree with you that we are all under a greater threat from fundamentalist religions - I mean really - Jerry Falwell and his ilk? And what was the pair's names - oh yeah Tammy Faye and her other half. Now maybe if they were to become the leader of the country - I would think we could certainly all be paranoid.

Bush's War? Hmmm - - really? All by himself? Why Greg - no one is that powerful - get real -


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Coyote Breath
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 12:17 AM

The soldier, who changed his name from Michael Kools to Asan Akbar when he converted to Islam, is said to have declared that he "fragged" the 16 men (in three seperate tents, using three grenades) because he didn't want to kill fellow Muslims.

Feel what you feel and believe what you wish to believe but is it really unreasonable for the American public, especially Christians and Jews, to be fearful of Muslims?

Muslims seem to be afraid of Americans. Is THAT unreasonable?

So if Muslims focus their anger on us, and especially if that focus is based on THEIR religious perspective, is THAT unreasonable?

Don't confuse how people react, especially on an emotional level, with a turn to a pogrom mentality. When Americans have the chance to think calmly about events they usually behave reasonably and humanely. In the "heat" of events like the fragging deaths in Kuwait or 9/11 people will say things that calm reflection would have at least edited if not negated.

CB


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Blackcatter
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 12:47 AM

Oh yeah, I forgot Timothy McVie was muslim.

If we have to be afraid of Muslims (like the 200 I spent the evening with, looing game after game of Parchesi) Lets all be afraid of white male Christians as well.

sheesh.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: DougR
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 01:55 AM

Greg F: you speak as though you are a veteran of one, or possibly many wars. I don't think you have mentioned your military experience before. Were you in Viet Nam? Korea? WWII?

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Wolfgang
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 08:14 AM

If it is true that he argues with his faith as one reason for his attack then it is correct to mention his faith when we speak about him.

If not it is as relevant as his sexual orientation about which I haven't heard anything yet and I can't say I've missed this information.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Troll
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 10:36 AM

I'm with you, Steve. The far Right scares me just as much as the far Left does. Fanatics of any stripe are scary.
Doug, I'll bet that GregF doesn't have any military background. Even the guys I know in Veterans For Peace are nowhere near as vituperative aganist the government as he is.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 10:45 AM

Dumbya has no military experience, if you two smug-finger-pointers will remember.

My first thought on hearing of this is a cynical "guess Homeland Security didn't work very well, did it?"

kat


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 11:12 AM

is it really unreasonable for the American public,
especially Christians and Jews, to be fearful of Muslims?


Not only is it unreasonable to be afraid of Muslims simply because they are Muslims, but it is psychotic and possibly psychopathic.

Muslims seem to be afraid of Americans. Is THAT unreasonable?

Most if not all of the third world- be they Muslim, Christian, Budist,
Scientologist or athiest are afraid of the U.S. (NOT of 'Americans') and in the light of the sorry way they have been treated BY the U.S., historically and especially in the last couple of decades, their fear is entirely justified. If they are familiar with the so-called "Project For A New American Century" it would be unreasonable if they were NOT afraid.

I don't think you have mentioned your military experience before.

Your absolutely right for once, Dougie, I haven't discussed it. Neither will I now. Why? First, its none of your fuckin' business! Second, it would'nt make any substantive difference to the points under discusion.

Troll, place any bets you like- its still a semi-free country, until Ashcroft, Poindexter & the boys complete their agenda. However, I am in no way, shape, or form- nor have I ever been- against "THE government"- whatever you intend that to mean. I'm against The BuShite Junta's version of government. And there are plenty of folks in the same boat who are considerably more "vituperative" than I.

Best, Greg


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 11:16 AM

It was impossible to listen to the news yesterday without learning of this..I do NOT see why it needs to be posted here anonymously.

What in the everloving holy HELL good does it do for US to 'chew' on one crazy incident?

(mark me as pissed, in case the tone of my reply somehow escaped you)


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 11:22 AM

Hi, Kat-

There ya go with them pesky FACTS again!!   

Another pesky fact is that Dumbya was AWOL for a year from the weekend-warrior assignment his Daddy bought for him to keep him out of the real war while my friends were dying in Viet Nam. Shame Junior didn't pull that coward's trick in Southeast Asia - they would have shot HIS goddamn sorry ass for desertion- and saved everyone a lot of trouble.

Best, Greg


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: GUEST,Liberal Conservative Democrat Republican
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 11:54 AM

Sorry you feel that way, Bill. RE anonymously, I have a name.

I am also sorry that you think it should not have been posted. A large percentage of what is posted here concerning the war, Bush, and politics in general can be placed in that category, too. Wouldn't leave much to talk about, would it?

I am with Wolfgang on this one. If he did this because of his beliefs, then it matters. If it was merely an act of revenge, it does not. We will probably find out eventually.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: DougR
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 12:26 PM

Cynical kat? You? Perish the thought.

Greg: I though not.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 01:12 PM

Onya, Greg!

Doug, and I used to be such a pollyanna...:-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 02:01 PM

You thought not WHAT, Dougie? There you go again making up your own facts as you go along. Guess you're delusional MOST of the time. You don't know jack shit about me, whether I served in the military or not or anything else! You really are a piece of work, you know that?


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: GUEST,Norton1
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 07:15 PM

Well Greg you don't know a lot about me either. So what? It don't mean nothin' you know? I missed the "facts" part of your thing Greg. You can be quite confusing - I'd say that "piece of work" is just your anger getting the better of you. We used to say, "If you can't hold your mud then don't walk in the rain."

Don't infer Greg and then we might be able to know something enlightening. I must say - you get so excited!

What I learned about the internet is that it isn't all that much. And little gets settled here. Usually it is just a frustrating little exercise in communication attempts. Don't take it so personal - I certainly don't.

Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 07:33 PM

Well, Greg F., I do know that you are the most vitriolic peacenick I have ever "encountered."

Roger that last of yours, Steve. Over.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 09:31 PM

Hey, thanks, Heric. I take that as a real compliment.

Steve: Thanks, Dad. Can I borrow the car keys?


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 10:27 PM

>>If it is true that he argues with his faith as one reason for his attack then it is correct to mention his faith when we speak about him.

If not it is as relevant as his sexual orientation about which I haven't heard anything yet and I can't say I've missed this information.

Wolfgang <<

This doesn't help with (a) if he keeps silent about "religious" motivations, when in fact they are there; or (b) if third parties claim that he had religious motivations, but are lying.

See, e.g., and wonder: "You guys are coming into our countries and you're going to rape our women and kill our children."

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2003/03/24/MN17824.DTL

His motives have to be relevant, but his religion doesn't, even if he calls it "religion." (The only improabable exception I can think of is if he was widely connected with and claims to be or was influenced by people within a particular "religious" organization.) (Was that obtuse?)


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 10:27 PM

sorry that last was me without a cookie


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Wolfgang
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 04:09 AM

You're right, heric.

The first sentence 'if...then' is valid in my argument, but the second 'if not...then not' is a non sequitur. There are more 'ifs' that could lead to the same 'then'.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Kim C
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 10:07 AM

He might have got off easier if he had just refused service. I recall some people doing that during the Gulf War.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: vietvet'67
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 11:39 AM

Closing a thread does not change the truth, try as you may.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: posterchild
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 11:44 AM

I am wondering why you closed the thread about black muslim traitors.
Why do you consider the truth a "racist" statement.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Bagpuss
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 11:46 AM

Er because it was pretty much a duplicate thread, on exactly the same topic as this earlier one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 12:17 PM

black muslim traitors

That statement would be more accurate if it said:

"A Black Muslim traitor", or better yet, "A Black Muslim who is accused of being a traitor".

There's only one person who is accused of this crime, and no one has been convicted of it yet. It would be racist if you were to generalize this one man's alleged actions and extend them to the Black population or the Muslim population as a whole. You seem to be doing this when you say "traitors" (plural), but I'm sure that was not your intention.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: posterchild
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 12:24 PM

CarolC, stick around because this war is going to last a long time and I am sure "black muslim traitor" wiil become "black muslim traitors" soon. As you know the US black population does not support "The War". Maybe a white protestant or catholic will break bad. Time will tell.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 12:31 PM

Time will, indeed, tell, posterchild.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Wolfgang
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 12:42 PM

for the record: the closed thread has used the singular

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: artbrooks
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 01:00 PM

To answer the question posed by vietvet'67 in the disappeared thread: what do I think should be done with this (his words) "black Muslim traitor", I think that his division commander should have an Article 32 investigation conducted under the normal rules of military law. This ionvestigation will, as usual in all allegations involving violent crimes, include a pyschiatric evaluation. Based upon the recommendations of the investigating officer, the division commander will then order the accused released, remand him for medical treatment, or conviene a court martial.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: GUEST,Norton1
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 01:05 PM

No on the keys Greg - I don't know enough about you to make an informed decision.

Just seemed to me that you are cussing someone for labeling you on the information you provided, or didn't provide, and then in the same breath get all sweaty about him not knowing anything about you.

If someone arrives at a decision based on the information that person provides - then who is at fault for the poor dicision? I'd suggest that at least half of that would be on the one who did not provide the information.

So in your own words Greg - piss off - :-)

Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 01:30 PM

Aw, Gee, Dad, and I wanted to go to the drive-in......

And no, most persons of intelligence would wait until ample facts were available to make an informed decision rather than jumping to a conclusion or labelling someone "on the basis of information not provided". (Say What??)

C'mon, You SURE about those keys??? :>)


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: posterchild
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 02:08 PM

artbrooks...are you proposing that the US commanders should coddle this sicko bastard and give him more rights than he gave his fellow soldiers. This fuck is a muslim terrorist! Not one to be treated with gloves. His guilt is obvious.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 02:12 PM

posterchild for jingoism-He will be given the same rights as any other soldier accused of those crimes. His religion plays no part whatsoever, and guilt, however "obvious," is only AFTER a conviction. No "coddling" was suggested, only due process. If you think that that's too good for a man accused of being a terrorist, you're right at home with Ashcroft and the rest of those paranoids.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: posterchild
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 02:50 PM

Forum Lurker or any other highly informed person...SOOOOOOOOOO, if this prominent loyal citizen was to be found guilty of this alledged crime, what would the US do for punishment.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Pseudolus
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 03:01 PM

Am I to understand that all duplicate threads will now be combined into one? That's never happened before. Actually, I doubt it will in the future. I suspect the topic and the way the question was posed had a lot more to do with it than duplication.

I've heard a lot of talk about how the troops are fighting for free speech, how Michael Moore is a hero for exercising his rights of free speech and now we have a thread closed, for what? Duplication? Please.....   If that's the case we need the Joe Clones to get busy combining threads......cause there's a lot of that out there.

For the record, I don't agree with the implied opinions in the question but he HAS the right to express them.....


Frank


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: artbrooks
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 03:03 PM

The Uniform Code of Military Justice reads as follows:

918. ART. 118. MURDER
Any person subject to this chapter whom without justification or excuse, unlawfully kills a human being, when he- -
(1) has a premeditated design to kill;
(2) intends to kill or inflict great bodily harm;
(3) is engaged in an act which is inherently dangerous to others and evinces a wanton disregard of human life; or
(4) is engaged in the perpetration or attempted perpetration of burglary, sodomy, rape, robbery, or aggravated arson;
is guilty of murder, and shall suffer such punishment as a court-martial may direct, except that if found guilty under clause (1) or (4), he shall suffer death or imprisonment for life as a court-martial may direct.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: vietvet'67
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 03:57 PM

I sincerely hope that this bastard (pardon me, this poor misguided fuck who alny wishes to serve Allah) will be treated as a wartime traitor and as a terrorist. My wish for him is to be put into the general population in a Federal facility. The patriotic inmates will give him all the care and attention that this poor misguided fuck (who wishes to serve Allah) deserves.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: DougR
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 05:39 PM

Greg F: I don't recall mentioning "military" in my post. I don't believe I mentioned anything. All in your mind, Greggie, all in your mind. :>)

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 06:32 PM

I don't believe I mentioned anything

True- You rarely do!


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Blackcatter
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 07:12 PM

Ok, you leave a thread for a couple days and -


Are people actually arguing what is going to happen to this guy? Are you actually treating an act of murder (if that's what he did) as if the U.S. military doesn't know the process?

As Art said with the adding of the murder art. in the UCMJ, he will get a court marshal and if found guilt receive either life or death. His religious proclivities probably won't even be admissible.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 11:02 PM

vietvet'67-Could we maybe try to keep the idea of "innocent until proven guilty?" It angers me no end when people condemn someone based on the fact that they've been arrested. Yes, he probably did it, but the benefit of the doubt belongs to everyone, not just people you like.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: vietvet'67
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 06:11 AM

When guilt is obvious... His religion certainly does play heavily in this situation. He stated that he does not want to kill muslims. His commander (and all commanders) should have the foresight to make sure that these people (muslims) are not called upon to do battle against their kind. To this traitorous fuck we are all "infidels" if we don't serve allah. Wouldn't you want to know who is standing outside your tent?


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