BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: artbrooks
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 07:32 AM

vietvet'67 reminds me of people in my unit in Vietnam who called ALL Asians dinks or slopes, including the 5th generation American from San Francisco who was of Chinese descent.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: vietvet'67
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 07:51 AM

artbrooks reminds me of certain people in my unit in Vietnam who glean just enough bits and pieces from the whole truth to get good people killed by poor misguided fucks such as the one that this thread is based on. In war TUNNEL VISION has the same effect as friendly fire and politicians...you get your own people killed. The Iraqis are pulling the same ruse as the Vietcong:

1. Hiding among civilians and using hostages as shields
2. Dressing as civilians and infiltrating US forces
3. Faking surrender under the white flag

Wise up, artbrooks, it is obvious that you never faced the enemy in a true combat situation or you surely know that the battlefield is not the proper place for one's head to be up one's ass.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: EJ
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 08:24 AM

Well said vietvet'67. Living in the boonies of Vietnam taught me a number of things:

1. Your enemy is anyone that looks like one and should be treated
    accordingly until proven otherwise. Unfortunately this scenario
    includes women and children. You have to be aware of ALL the
    people ALL around you ALL the time. And these traits stay with
    you forever.
2. Indoctrination is a powerful tool. The life that these people
    live is all that they know. Their countrie's enemies are   
    their enemies and all is fair in war whether they are in uniform
    or not.
3. Your enemy does not live in accord with the Geneva Convention.
    Believe it, they do not share your morality.
4. You have to be totally aware of your surroundings. As vietvet'67
    stated, tunnel vision has no place on the battlefield. To this
    day I DO NOT walk through a door without looking carefully at
    what might be on the other side and I always (ALWAYS) look for
    a way out of any room or building that I enter. I won't elaborate
    but this practice saved my ass on one occasion.

This list is endless...

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: posterchild
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 09:45 AM

BRAVO! BRAVO! BRAVO! BRAVO vietvet'67 and EJ. There are at least 2 in the US with balls to tell it as they see it. Read carefully you people. These 2 have a story to listen to and learn from. Were you commandos or elite forces?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 10:10 AM

This has turned into your standard moronic racist fuckwit dick-waving convention. Stand Tall, America! be proud of these three assholes.

Have fun, children. Please let us know who pissed highest on the wall when you're through. Bye!

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: posterchild
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 10:46 AM

GF, And you would surely like to LICK them. The one pissing up high on the wall will piss on your shoes.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: GUEST,Norton1
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 10:53 AM

And we can but hope for your permanent exit Greg - you and Peace Matriot are so full of yourselves that Narcissist doesn't fully encompass you.

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: vietvet'67
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 10:56 AM

Greg F, there is nothing racist about the truth. The truth is simply the truth and nothing but the truth. Why do have a problem with the truth? Does your religion prevent you from supporting the truth?
You do indeed have a different standard that those of us who fought for this country share. Is it too late for you to enlist and wear a uniform and show that you care for your country? I feel pity for you. The only problem with the total freedom which the United States allows us is that that there are those such as you who run free.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 11:04 AM

WHOA!!! I must have touched a sore spot, huh? Whose "truth'- YOUR "truth"? What makes you think I didn't "fight for my country"?- is it because I find your bombast, bragging and dick-waving childish and offensive? Save your pity for youselves, boys.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Blackcatter
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 11:25 AM

vietvet,

There are plenty vets here at Mudcat and around the country who do not agree with you. You're just one of those typical dudes who can't concieve that they might be wrong.

My question isn't who here served in the military - this is a music site - do you know how to play and instrument? That's what's important at the Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: posterchild
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 11:34 AM

GregF keeps refering to USA patrotism as "dickwaving". Be careful EJ and vietvet'67 of waving your "dicks" (I cannot join you as I am la femme fatale) in the presence of GregF. He may think that lunch is being served. And, GregF, I know enough real soldiers so as to know that you did not "serve your country". You speak as though you may serve other agendas. Please tell what you are.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Blackcatter
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 11:42 AM

posterchild - can you even conceive that you might be wrong? If not - run for office, our president needs people like you to screw the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 12:01 PM

Its OK Blackcatter, the Three Stooges of the Apocalypse don't bother me at all- just bad cases of testosterone poisoning & penis envy. I've seen and heard it all before. These clowns don't speak for all- or even most- Vets, thank God, comments about "real soldiers" (gimmie a break) notwithstanding. Infantile.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: posterchild
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 12:04 PM

Poor Blackcatter - your president has already screwed you
Poor GregF - poor gregf

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Pseudolus
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 12:12 PM

Blackcatter,
   Is playing an instrument a pre-requisite here? You may find a lot of people surprised at that one. I'm not taking up anyone else's cause here but I really hate it when in the middle of a discussion people say, oh yeah? Well, uh, ya know this is a MUSIC SITE!!!!! Music is a common thread (scuse the pun) but it is certainly not exclusive.....

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: GUEST,troll
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 12:21 PM

Getting back to the original topic of this thread---------------

According to Reuters this (alledged my prostestant ass) B**** American Muslim Traitorous Fuck was tackled and subdued by observers who SAW him roll grenades under three tents and SAW him firing his rifle at others in an attempt to kill them. And some of you people are spouting off that this fuck MAY have commited this terrorist act and is subjuct to due process under UCMJ. What would it take for you to nod your pansy heads yes, be in one of the tents?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: GUEST,Norton1
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 12:52 PM

You know - Greg may be correct - or was is Blackcatter - this is a site that does not necessarily condone opinions that are not directly in the cause of what most folkies allude to "Peace" and the price paid for it.

Truth is relative to the beholder and no one else. In general a truth is a lie as my truth is certainly different from some of yours. Doesn't make it right or wrong - just the way it is.

Whether you are a vet that agrees with the current situation or not is also up for debate. How many vets do you know personally that are opposed to the war and how many do you know that are supportive of the war? So what is yourpercentage and how did you statistically arrive at your consensus. People tend to hang out with people that think like they do so it leaves a bit of funnel vision as to the validity of how many support any given cause.

I seriously doubt that you served in the military Greg. Most vets have learned over time to agree to disagree without being too vituperative in their comments. Alluding to things in any form leaves myself, and this is just my .02 worth, believing that you'd like to have others think that you served as a possibility. The only way I would know is if you were to send me a copy of your discharge certificate. Or your full name and service number - then through a Freedom of Information (FOIA) request at St. Louis I could tell pretty much what you did and when you did it.

Your name calling really is quite old and lacks anything innovative. I'd say the anachronistic colloquialisms are something you read in a book somewhere and lack real insight. But whatever gets you going -

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: GUEST,Patriot Miss L.
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 12:59 PM

PANSY HEADS? PANSY HEADS, TROLL?

Good lord, in your book, to believe in 'due process' means your gay?

This rather droll thread has indeed become slapstic comedy.

Miss L.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 01:02 PM

It has been stated that fragging is something that sometimes happens during war. Why should this man be treated any differently than anyone else who has been charged with this crime in the past?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 01:54 PM

Nort, "full name and service number"? You're a real laugh riot! Just who the fuck do you think you are, lad? And why do you think I give a fuck what you doubt or don't doubt or what you think? MY name calling? Please. Stick to waving your dick. ASt least you're good at it.

Don't you understand
Its not my problem??

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 01:57 PM

GUEST,troll-For me to be convinced of his guilt, either an eyewitness account from someone I personally know or a conviction. For me to ignore due process? Nothing that I can think of.

EJ-war should not preclude morality. You can certainly assume that everyone around you is an enemy, and be careful because of that, but you don't kill people until they actually threaten you.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: posterchild
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 02:41 PM

Forum Lurker, read "here's a blicky" in Deda's post. Another wounded USA soldier has died due to his "alledged" wounds.

GregF, poor gregf. Well lad, there you are talking of "dick waving"
again as though you cannot get enough. Do a bend over and I am sure someone will give you a good stiff one.

Patriot Miss L, my dear. Please go back to sleep and when you wake you just might be here in the real world with us.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 02:49 PM

PosterCHILD. Aptly named.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 02:53 PM

Anybody going to answer my question?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 03:34 PM

CarolC-there is no reason to treat him any differently than the law requires. I can hope that that's what was done in previous cases, but I don't know.

posterchild-the attack occured, but guilt is not yet proven. Also, could you possibly get over your homophobia? People would take you more seriously if you didn't sound like a petty bigot.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: artbrooks
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 03:39 PM

CarolC, he certainly should not be treated differently, and I can vividly recall visiting a man in my battery in Vietnam who was locked up in what we called the Long Binh Jail for a similar (but not as serious) offense (he knocked out a lieutenant's four front teeth with a rifle barrel). Compared to the LBJ, the people in the confinement facility at Guantanimo Bay have luxury accomodations. Due process is a vital part of what makes us who we are.

Religious affiliation? I wonder how many American soldiers who profess the religion of Islam are riding in tanks alongside their Christian, Jewish and non-practicing comrads? I expect its about the same percentage as there are Moslems in this country.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Pseudolus
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 03:48 PM

I don't think your gonna get too many answers from this crew Carol, they're too busy taking pot shots at each other. I agree with you, there is no reason for him to be treated any differently. He has the right to due process and he should get it.

I will say however that I do understand the emotional response this has received. Here's a guy who is there in support of our country and he turns on his own with grenades. The fact that he is Muslim was bound to stir up emotions and hatred. I don't think it's right but I am anything BUT surprised by it.

I also think that some people around here need to get a grip. The lynchmob needs to lighten up and at least one person around here needs to see someone about his obsession with dick waving.....sheesh.


Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: EJ
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 03:50 PM

CarolC, I will give you my opinion. When I was in Vietnam the only "fraggings" I knew about were directed against particular individuals, ie, incompetent officers who put far too many troops in harms way knowing full well their's was a fool's errand. Whether they deserved what they got? Debatable. Those in command had the discretion to countermand or question orders from superiors that were foolhardy or ineffective or just plain stupid. The incident in question (in this thread) is a random act of terror directed at as many people as possible. It is my belief that this person may have acted in accordance with his muslin beliefs to kill "infidels". Or he may be part of a terrorist cell.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 03:53 PM

EJ-to call beliefs that suggest the random killing of infidels "Muslim" is even less accurate than to call the beliefs of the Inquisition "Christian."

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: EJ
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 03:54 PM

PS...should he receive due process? He probably will unless he is ousted from the military and tried for a terrorist act. That is certainly a possibility.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 04:04 PM

Thanks to those who answered my question.

EJ, do you know what the law is in regard to this man's behavior, and do you have any reason to not trust that due process will bring justice in this case?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 04:04 PM

EJ-I don't think they can do that. Besides, chances are that the army would prefer a court-martial, since it is faster, more private, and easier on the prosecution.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 04:04 PM

Oops, EJ. Looks like we cross posted.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: EJ
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 04:08 PM

Forum Lunker...thanks for setting me straight...just can't beat a man with an education. And to back myself up a bit, this man can only be ousted if he is found guilty of a treasonous war crime...but more than likely he will spend his days in a Federal institution where some rather unsavory patriots will have fun with him. The outcome will be, to say the least, interesting.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: GUEST,Norton1
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 04:35 PM

Well Greg - seems you're not quite able to let go of it - so I'd say it is your problem. I'm just fuckin with ya and you can't take it - poor little guy - still no keys to the car? Poor baby -

Har har har - - - -

Steve

As for those who are having a problem with the little urinating contest - don't read it - just that simple - few of us want to screw with the lame one's head - well long as he takes the bait - pow, ping, just like shootin fish in a barrel. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: EJ
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 05:11 PM

5:00 pm EST...This just in! As per MSNBC news (Leslie Banfield) Sgt Akbar (the accused traitor) has forfeited all rights and according to the UCMJ IS guilty unless he can prove himself innocent. Which is going to be kinda hard since the "poor misguided muslim fuck" was caught in the act. It is possible that he can be tried for Treason and Mutiny. Seems like this poor misguided fuck confided to some of his buds that he was going to "use grenades and shoot some people and make it look like friendly fire". He also confided in his buds that he would not kill other muslims and would "do something to make sure this did not happen". I do believe that Akbar's primary concern now will making sure some Southern Baptist or some other fine prostetant does not catch his traitorous ass unawares. Sgt Akbar, now there is a very finely tuned mind. This case will certainly bear watching. What think you now, Forum Lurker?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 05:22 PM

Boy, that's tellin me. Snortin' Norton - what a man. As long as your having fun there, Snortin', have at it.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 06:27 PM

EJ and Vietvet. I have no military experience. Nevertheless, I would be tempted to assume that anyone who was a credible, crucial and direct witness in the government's favor would be keeping their mouths shut outside the appropriate personnel at this point. If I were the appropriate personnel, I would make certain that said witnesses understood that without any ambiguity.

Yes? No?

If yes, all the rumours about some guy said that some guy said "You guys are coming into our countries and you're going to rape our women and kill our children," or said "I am going to use grenades and shoot some people and make it look like friendly fire," and all that stuff are likely to be horseshit, right?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: GUEST,Norton1
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 06:27 PM

LOL - Oh Greg - so easy

Ka-pow - oops another one - :-)

Yeah I am a man - so what? LMAO - - -

Guess we'll have to cut back on your soap on a rope rations -

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 06:37 PM

WHO can't leave it alone, Snortin? Seems you always have to get the last word in.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: EJ
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 07:00 PM

heric, Good point...I was passing on what I heard on MSMBC news. You don't think they would streeeeeetch things a little or push the envelope, do you? We will take a wait and see. But if we see it in print, it is gospel. The printed word never lies.

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 07:05 PM

You're being a smartass EJ, which is too bad becuase I was expecting a substantive answer, which I guess I shouldn't have been. Anyway, if you were so hell bent on being snide you would have noticed that the first quote (about rape, etc) was from a San Francisco newspaper, originally cited by yours truly, me.

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 07:12 PM

It's common sense, EJ. What the rumours, radios, newspapers, television and internet say he said at this point are likely to be false. So what? Why should that bother you? Doesn't mean he won't receive the maximum legal punishment, and maybe a bit of extra-legal as well.

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 07:36 PM

Katlaughing said: "Dumbya has no military experience,"

Au contraire, mon cher! He has military experience, although not in great length, but in a high rank: He is Commander in Chief.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: EJ
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 06:25 AM

heric, We understand your defensive position. Since you have had no military experience it is hard for you to understand how close and tight people in a military unit become. To a lot of soldiers the military is their home and their fellow soldiers are family. So when an asshole like AKBAR commits an atrocity such as this...the action becomes real personal. Maybe at times we do grab at straws and believe everything that we hear. Especially when yhis person was caught commiting this traitorous, mutinous, terrorist crime. And, wrong though it may be, each and every standing member of that unit would glady be AKBAR'S executioner. If I seem to come on a little strong and not to your liking or understanding...so be it.

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: posterchild
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 07:10 AM

EJ - well spoken mon amie. We shall never know the man until we walk beside the man. Until you do, tread lightly.

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 07:43 AM

Oh, knock it off with the "terrorist" label, EJ, et al. He blew up soldiers, not civilians. To label it "terrorism" simply because he is a Muslim is racist. I mean, would you be calling it "terrorism" if he was one of those epileptic Southern Baptist snake-worshipers you seem to be so fond of? :)

The same thing has bothered me in the "war" coverage, too. Iraqi guerrilla fighters, using tactics that George Washington would have admired, are "terrorists," "thugs," "zealots," and "fanatics." US soldiers, dressed similarly civilian clothes (in Kurdistan) and evaporating civilians, are "heroes." Please. At least the Iraqis are fighting for a worthy cause: for their homeland, against yet another imperialist aggressor.

Only Bush could make Saddam Hussein look good.

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Wolfgang
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 08:07 AM

Since when are Muslims a race?

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 08:28 AM

Don't make me get out the dictionary, Wolfgang... Here's how the Merriam-Webster website defines "race:"

Main Entry: 3race
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French, generation, from Old Italian razza
Date: 1580
1 : a breeding stock of animals
2 a : a family, tribe, people, or nation belonging to the same stock b : a class or kind of people unified by community of interests, habits, or characteristics (the English race)
3 a : an actually or potentially interbreeding group within a species; also : a taxonomic category (as a subspecies) representing such a group b : BREED c : a division of mankind possessing traits that are transmissible by descent and sufficient to characterize it as a distinct human type
4 obsolete : inherited temperament or disposition
5 : distinctive flavor, taste, or strength

See the second definition. :)

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Wolfgang
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 08:41 AM

"the race of folk musicians" "the catholic race"?

It would take some time and effort but I could get used to it.

Wolfgang