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BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!

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Rick Fielding 23 Mar 03 - 10:37 PM
Bobert 23 Mar 03 - 10:49 PM
katlaughing 23 Mar 03 - 10:59 PM
Blackcatter 23 Mar 03 - 11:02 PM
thosp 23 Mar 03 - 11:21 PM
Rick Fielding 23 Mar 03 - 11:38 PM
Jeri 23 Mar 03 - 11:49 PM
Amos 24 Mar 03 - 12:11 AM
Armen Tanzerian 24 Mar 03 - 12:28 AM
Jack the Sailor 24 Mar 03 - 12:31 AM
Blackcatter 24 Mar 03 - 12:36 AM
Armen Tanzerian 24 Mar 03 - 12:43 AM
Thomas the Rhymer 24 Mar 03 - 12:48 AM
DougR 24 Mar 03 - 01:42 AM
Rustic Rebel 24 Mar 03 - 02:11 AM
Nigel Parsons 24 Mar 03 - 04:11 AM
Geoff the Duck 24 Mar 03 - 04:15 AM
Troll 24 Mar 03 - 04:52 AM
JudyR 24 Mar 03 - 05:18 AM
gnu 24 Mar 03 - 06:33 AM
TIA 24 Mar 03 - 07:12 AM
InOBU 24 Mar 03 - 07:32 AM
Willie-O 24 Mar 03 - 08:12 AM
GUEST 24 Mar 03 - 08:22 AM
Pseudolus 24 Mar 03 - 08:32 AM
Bobert 24 Mar 03 - 08:53 AM
Forum Lurker 24 Mar 03 - 09:01 AM
TIA 24 Mar 03 - 09:04 AM
Peter T. 24 Mar 03 - 09:27 AM
Jim Dixon 24 Mar 03 - 09:33 AM
Pseudolus 24 Mar 03 - 09:50 AM
Jim Dixon 24 Mar 03 - 09:56 AM
Pseudolus 24 Mar 03 - 10:02 AM
Troll 24 Mar 03 - 10:06 AM
Stilly River Sage 24 Mar 03 - 10:16 AM
Rick Fielding 24 Mar 03 - 10:18 AM
Thomas the Rhymer 24 Mar 03 - 10:21 AM
katlaughing 24 Mar 03 - 10:29 AM
Blackcatter 24 Mar 03 - 10:51 AM
GUEST,adavis@truman.edu 24 Mar 03 - 11:05 AM
Rick Fielding 24 Mar 03 - 11:06 AM
Blackcatter 24 Mar 03 - 11:12 AM
katlaughing 24 Mar 03 - 11:15 AM
InOBU 24 Mar 03 - 11:23 AM
Pseudolus 24 Mar 03 - 11:28 AM
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Jim Dixon 25 Mar 03 - 07:34 AM
TIA 25 Mar 03 - 08:01 AM
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Little Hawk 25 Mar 03 - 08:07 PM
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Subject: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 23 Mar 03 - 10:37 PM

Sorry to my friends on Mudcat who feel differently than I do, but...

...Thank you Michael Moore!! I won't go into what he said...if someone has a transcript perhaps they'll share it here.

It wasn't a snide sideways comment, it was VERY direct. It was how he felt. He was supported ON STAGE by the other documentary nominees, and Jeez it made me feel good after a bad day, listening about American British and Iraqi casualties.

Hey...he won the Oscar as well!

Cheers

Rick


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Mar 03 - 10:49 PM

I didn't hear him, Rick, but I'm sure he was great. He just seems to have a way of stripping off the crapola layers to an issue and exposing the rawness underneath. Good on Mike. He is the foremost spokesman against the insane administration in the US that we have.

bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Mar 03 - 10:59 PM

I am sorry I missed that, Rick. I'd forgotten they were on. Really glad he was recognized by winning. Here's a quote I found at the Drudge:

"We like nonfiction and we live in fictitious times. We live in a time where we have fictitious election results, that elect a fictitious president. We live in a time where we have a man sending us to war for fictitious reasons," Moore said.

Right on, Michael!


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Blackcatter
Date: 23 Mar 03 - 11:02 PM

And you should have heard the boos!

Thanks to Michael Moore for the movie and the statement.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: thosp
Date: 23 Mar 03 - 11:21 PM

i heard him Rick---- three cheers for him!!!

peace(Y)thosp


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 23 Mar 03 - 11:38 PM

There were some boos, but mostly people seemed to be in shock. Damn, the guy has the guts of a burglar.

Look, these are movie actors and there's no reason to think that the room's collective IQ would be any higher that that of an average Town Hall meeting. Plus I suspect the vast majority would be terrified at the prospect of sinking their careers with a wrong strategic move, so it doesn't bother me a bit that when the cameras went into the audience, many (male and female) looked like deer caught in the headlights before applauding in a stunned kind of way.

But Moore? Damn, I'm proud of him.

Rick


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Jeri
Date: 23 Mar 03 - 11:49 PM

Up until Michael Moore, I thought they might have threatened people with beheading for mentioning the fact there was a war going on. They probably had something worse in mind for those expressing any opinions about it. I suppose they just wanted to avoid controversy, but it seems like they're dancing around the issue and pretending everything's just hunky-dory. It's the Stepford Oscars.

Peter O'Toole was pretty cool too, although he didn't say anything political.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Amos
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 12:11 AM

O'Toole's speech was amazing, first class, all-time excellent language.

Moore was very gutsy -- he hauled all the contenders for the Oscar he had just been awarded onto stage with him, and on their joint behalf made a little speech denouncing the falsity of the war situation.

Even those who disagree with him have to give him high points for sheer guts.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Armen Tanzerian
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 12:28 AM

Actually, Steve Martin got in his licks right at the top, though in a much more lighthearted way:

"This year we did away with the red carpet -- THAT'll send a message!!"

"As a special gesture, all the proceeds from tonight's show will be given to major corporations."

Exactly, Steve, exactly.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 12:31 AM

O'Toole was classy.

Moore was Moore. It would have taken more guts for him NOT to speak out.

Kirk Douglas and Olivia de Haviland showed guts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Blackcatter
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 12:36 AM

And that Jack Valente had to come out right after Moore's speech was priceless. The Screen Actors Guild would be better off with the lifeless, Meadowlands-covered corpse of Hoffa as their president.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Armen Tanzerian
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 12:43 AM

Melissa Gilbert is president of SAG. I don't think Valenti is president of anything any more.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 12:48 AM

I second the motion... Thank you Mr Moore! It took way more than guts to say what he did in that situation... The media blitz has made it virtually impossible for any opinions other than the administration's "hard line" to be heard in an 'authentic' setting... and I believe he has illustrated this beautifully! It might be seen as indulgent if there has been adequate coverage of the mainstream humanitarian concerns, but there has not been any credible discussion by the administration on these topics... This just made my day!

Support our troops! Bring them home now! ttr


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: DougR
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 01:42 AM

Rick: I'm not going to read the balance of the replies to your post on this thread before posting my own reply. You thought Michael Moore's statement was great, I thought it was totally out of place.

I sent an email to Frank Pierson, President of the Academy of Motion Pictures Arts and Sciences tonight congratulating him for not allowing that ceremony, which is intended to recognize the best in motion picture production for a specific year, to turn into a political tirade for or against anything.

Michael Moore's comments were not well received by the audience, and although he may have felt himself the hero for doing so, I thought, because many nations have young people fighting in Iraq, for the freedom of the Iraqi people, that he made a complete ass of himself.

I'm a bit disappointed that you see him as a hero, but I agree that you have a right to see it as you do.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 02:11 AM

I think the point is he said what he had to say, and who gives a fuck if you don't like it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 04:11 AM

Adrien Brody, winner of the best actor award for The Pianist, received a standing ovation when he said: "Whether you believe in God or Allah, may He watch over you and let's pray for a peaceful and swift resolution."

Amen to that!
Nigel


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 04:15 AM

DougR -you say I thought, because many nations have young people fighting in Iraq, for the freedom of the Iraqi people, that he made a complete ass of himself.
The ONLY troops in Iraq are US and British. NO other nations have sent troops. Do not try to tell us that other nations are there, because they are NOT! The United Nations has said that an unilateral invasion of Iraq does NOT have their backing. The people of Britain do NOT support Tony Blair in this war. We are about 70% against it according to all opinion polls.
As I see it - Michael Moore gives a more accurate portrayal of the reality of this Illegal Invasion than you do. I pity the poor troops out there. They have been sent in on a lie, and repeating the lie does NOT make it any truer.
Most of the reported casualties and deaths reported today were British Troops killed by US troops. I for one am not impressed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Troll
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 04:52 AM

Rustic Rebel, if you show no concern for what other people think, (who gives a fuck if you don't like it) , especially when they express views that you do not share, what does that say about you?

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: JudyR
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 05:18 AM

Moore said backstage to the press something like, "I know you guys'll all write about the chorus of boos, but there were about five boos, and the rest were cheers..."

I didn't think the audience looked stunned. You could see Dustin Hoffman's contained smile, you could see Harrison Ford digging it -- Ford's an old hippie carpenter that used to hang out at a country music place here in the 70's. I bet I know what he thinks!

Everybody's just been silenced, and told they weren't to say anything...and the right is slamming Hollywood activists so bad right now, it's almost a dangerous atmosphere. Yeah, I'd say it was darned brave of Moore.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: gnu
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 06:33 AM

Geoff the Duck said..."The ONLY troops in Iraq are US and British. NO other nations have sent troops. Do not try to tell us that other nations are there, because they are NOT!"

The Aussies are still colonists then ? What about the Polish ? Surely you don't claim Poland as a colony ? Can you also deny rumours that Ghurkas are in country (Baghdad) as well ?

As for Big Mike, a man of true conviction and true courage.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: TIA
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 07:12 AM

Why does the Right slam "Hollywood Types" and other entertainers for voicing their opinions?

The opinions of the Right are broadcast incessantly by Limbaugh, Savage, Gallagher, Hannity, O'Reilly, et al., and they are entertainers (self-proclaimed on many occasions!).

Keep talking, Michael Moore (and all you other vacuous Hollywooders who just happen to be CORRECT).


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: InOBU
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 07:32 AM

There was also editing of the audience shots, hard as it was live. As you saw the producer of Streets of New York, Martin Scorsese raise his hands to clap they cut away from him. DougR, what kind of documentary filmmaker would he be if he did not speak the truth, even to power and fluff.
Cheers to you all cheers and tears and love to Michael Moore
Larry


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Willie-O
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 08:12 AM

Right on Michael!

A couple of things did strike me.

I think the real miracle is that they gave him the Oscar. Everyone knew what he was going to do if he got it. His fans would have been hugely disappointed had he not followed through on his announced intentions. And those who don't like him will dislike him a bit more. It shows that there is still a little bit of room for a gutsy independent filmmaker who doesn't get support from the bad guys. I mean, are Rush Limbaugh and Pepsi going to pull their advertising? From where?

Gee, maybe some right-minded folks will start picketing Bowling for Columbine showings. You know they want to anyway...

Jack Valenti, last I heard, is pres of the main American trade organization, not the Actors Guild. He's all the time whining about Canada stealing productions from Hollywood (in other words, free trade in action--we do it better and cheaper and our locations are safer and cleaner!).

Finally, I haven't seen Bowling for Columbine yet, but from everything I've heard he's come a long way since he made "Canadian Bacon". Now there's a bad movie. If the industry really wants to get back at him they will get the movie networks to start showing it once a day.

Willie-O


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 08:22 AM

I believe there are Australians participating with the US and Britain. So, far these are the only nations to support the US in any kind of real involvement.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Pseudolus
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 08:32 AM

I believe that the Oscars were broadcast overseas and there were most likely a number of folks involved in this war that were able to watch them. Certainly the news of Moore's tirade has most likely reached the troops by now. That's just what they need to hear before they go out and risk their lives in a war, that they're involved in an illegal and unjust war and this idiot is screaming about it at the Oscar's. It must really give them confidence that they have the prospect of being treated along the same lines as a viet nam vet was treated upon returning to the US.

Moore is a horse's ass....


Frank


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 08:53 AM

Good point, TIA, the Bushies have the media hogged at the moment and if one nonBushie grabs the mike for so much as one minute, the Bushies squeal like stuck pigs.

Yeah, they are trying to send a message that only *their* opinions count.

"Step out of line the man come and take you away..."

Like I said earlier. Good on Mike.

He'd Make Tom Jefferson proud.

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 09:01 AM

Pseudolus-Some of them think the same thing about the war. Half of them voted for Gore if they could. Did you hear anything about the soldiers in Moore's speech? All I heard was vilification of the regime, not the armed forces.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: TIA
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 09:04 AM

troll asked:

"Rustic Rebel, if you show no concern for what other people think, (who gives a fuck if you don't like it) , especially when they express views that you do not share, what does that say about you?"

the answer is:

It says that Rustic Rebel is perfectly suited to practicing the new foreign policy instituted by the Bush Administration.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Peter T.
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 09:27 AM

Fond as I am of Michael Moore, he is too smart and smug for his own good. If you are going to have two minutes before a zillion people in the middle of a war, there are better messages than referring to the old news about the election, and troping on fiction and non-fiction. A simple cool statement that America is engaged in an illegal war, unsanctioned by its own previous committments to international law, which threatens to destroy its own republican heritage, and that civil liberties at home are being imperilled, would have been far more effective.

yours, Peter T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 09:33 AM

I understand the presenters WERE threatened that their mikes would be cut off if they made political statements. I assume that's why most of the political remarks were subtle, polite, and humorous.

However, Michael Moore won the Oscar for a highly political film; it would have been ridiculously hypocritical to try to prevent him from making a political statement. He took full advantage of the license that was given to him. Good for him.

I did hear a lot of boos. Did you also notice the apparently unanimous* standing ovation he got when his name was announced--before his speech? I didn't notice that for any other recipient. They must have known (approximately) what he was going to say. His acceptance speech was nearly identical to the speech he gave at the Independent Spirit Awards, which was broadcast on Bravo on Sunday afternoon. Only there, there was no booing, and he was given more time to speak without having to shout over the music.

*I called the ovation only apparently unanimous because the cameras focused, as usual, on the movie stars who sat in the front few rows. I assume there were people behind them who didn't stand. I assume that's where the studio executives sat, the people with less recognizable faces. I assume that's where the boos came from. I assume those areas were miked for broadcast, but not shown, and that's why the boos sounded louder to me than to Michael Moore.

I haven't seen any statistics, but I'd bet the studio executives are more conservative than the actors. Actors, rich as they may be, for the most part remember what it's like to be poor. Money hasn't corrupted them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Pseudolus
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 09:50 AM

Forum Lurker,
    It doesn't matter that no mention was made of the "soldiers", what they heard was a clear statement that what they were doing was wrong. That has the definite potential to undrmine their thinking at a time when the only thing on their minds should be the job at hand and staying safe...


Frank


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 09:56 AM

Pseudolus: If "the only thing on their minds should be the job at hand and staying safe" then what are they doing watching the Oscars?


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Pseudolus
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 10:02 AM

I didn't say they were all watching the Oscars and if you read my post you would have known that. I said that some probably were able to see it and some have certainly heard about it. My point was that WHEN they go into battle they should be concerned with the job at hand.


Frank


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Troll
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 10:06 AM

Jim Dixon, they weren't all watching the oscars you... But word from home does get to them and the rear echelons do have TV.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 10:16 AM

Frank,

One hopes that the soldiers are thinking. Do you think their thoughts are in lock-step with the Bush Regime?

I watched Hoffman to see if he would say anything to follow-up on Moore's thoughts, but his expression was mature, contained, and registered his approval. That wasn't a frown, that was a satisfied expression on his face. A much younger Hoffman would easily have said something. The older Hoffman spoke volumes.

It's pretty amazing how in the media we're hearing about life moving on, games being played (NCAA basketball was discussed on Morning Edition in this context this morning). It hasn't even been a week. Bush and his cronies promoted a quick, seamless, hands-off war, no smell of burned bodies from those jets high in the sky or ships launching missiles. My parents lived through World War II, four years of which saw American involvement. Four years! That's when life must go on, games played and ceremonies broadcast. Right now, I'd favor stopping everything in it's tracks and staring incredulously at Bush's Washington D.C. and asking him if he thinks he's really doing this for each of us? He's doing this for Halliburton and Exxon-Mobile and lots of other big industries. This isn't the first war where industry benefited, and had a lot to do with the justification of war. But it is so painfully obvious this time, you'd think a few more people in the heartland would catch on.

Moore got a lot into that little bit of time he had, and reminding folks about the fictions involved in this war was getting to the heart of the matter. More power to him.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 10:18 AM

Hi Doug.....well as I said at the beginning, "sorry to my friends on Mudcat who believe differently than I do...."

....but I guess ya have to decipher your own truth from the information provided. Over and over and over again, I've heard information come from (primarily) Bush, Rumsfeld and Fleischer, that appears so simplistic and generalized, I have to feel it's being aimed at folks who are only able to disseminate simple phrases, and jingoistic false Patriotism.

My cynicism started shortly after the tragedy of 9/11, when not one word of criticism was aimed at Saudi Arabia, (and a couple of others) who should have been number one on a "blame list". I think Bush may have lost a LOT of support at that time.....especially from folks who did a little digging into his family business ties.

When Moore said that troops have been sent to fight a war for "fictitious reasons", it would be hard for me to disagree.

Once again...sorry for the major disagreement.

Cheers

Rick


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 10:21 AM

Pseudolus... Are you aware of the billions of people all across this planet for whom this war is a moral digression, a slap in the face to the UN coalition (the only international coalition of any endurance and credibility), and an overwhelmingly negative example of "world leadership"?

We are honor bound to learn and speak. ttr


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 10:29 AM

Troll, Rustic Rebel is doing nothing more than the shrub also has done, according to an article coming out in TIME magazine. You can read more at the Drudge Report. Here's the relevant bit:

"F—k Saddam. We're taking him out," said President George W. Bush in March 2002, after poking his head into the office of National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice, TIME reports.

Just lovely little bastard, isn't he?

kat


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Blackcatter
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 10:51 AM

For those who are surprised that Moore won the Oscar in light of what's happening, remember that these awards were voted on over a month ago, before the war became inevitable.

Moore is a documentary film maker and has built up a great deal of respect among the Hollywood elite as well as the rest of the country. For instance, 65 members of my church went enmasse to see Bowling for Columbine when it first came out.

If you've seen the movie, he doesn't even come to a great conclusion at to the problem of gun violence in the U.S. He reports facts, interview people on both sides of the subject and shows the consequences of gun violence. The one thing in the movie I liked the most was his interview with Marilyn Manson - who came off sounding intelligent and well spoken.

Nobody expected Moore to not say something, in fact, I'd bet that the producers we're relieved when he won and said what he did. They knew that it would eventually happen and saying what he said and being who he is took a lot of the pressure off of everyone else who wanted to say something.

Anyone who thinks that his comments insulted our troops has bought into the conservative lie that liberals hate the military and are secretly glad they're dying. Liberals understand the need for the military (we just think that they're there for defense and not mindless aggression against countries incapable of harming us) and they respect and support the people who serve. Any other interpretation is sickening and says more about conservative objectives than it does liberal ones.


As for Brodie who won best actor - I thought it was insulting that he put the moves on Halle Berry. Proves to me that women in Hollywood, even Oscar winners are still just objects for men to do what they will with. Maybe, next year, the winner will fondle this years breasts as well.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: GUEST,adavis@truman.edu
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 11:05 AM

Here's a good example of manufacturing consensus: "Good Morning America" this morning introduced a segment specifically devoted to political and war-commentary in the ceremony, and they DID NOT SO MUCH AS MENTION MICHAEL MOORE. We don't need government censorship when we've got the corporate kind.

Peace,

Adam


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 11:06 AM

Thanks Blackcatter. I agree. Brodie's behaviour did seem strange. For a minute, I thought it just might be me getting old. And the couple of times the camera focused on Halle...you could see that she was still a bit discombobulated! I heard someone say that it was a set-up...but I doubt it.

Rick


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Blackcatter
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 11:12 AM

Hey Rick

Well I thought that maybe they know each other and set it up or something, but knowing the superstitions around winning and not making plans, with the exception of an acceptance speech, I would doubt it. And I'd bet he'd have never thoguht about it if it was Kathy Bates.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 11:15 AM

Certainly some different takes in the media as to Moore's speech. Drudge leads to a Yahoo news story which has the following:

Michael Moore booed as he slams Iraq war at Oscars
Mon Mar 24, 2:13 AM ET

HOLLYWOOD (AFP) - Famed US documentary maker Michael Moore (news) used his win of an Oscar to launch a violent attack on US President George W. Bush (news - web sites) and war in Iraq (news - web sites) amid loud boos from the audience.


While, Google leads to an MTV report which seems much more even-handed.

It's good to get our news from as many different sources as possible, imo.

kat


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: InOBU
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 11:23 AM

Hi Pseudolus, by "...It must really give them confidence that they have the prospect of being treated along the same lines as a viet nam vet was treated upon returning to the US..." do you mean that instead of help with drug and alcoholism, instead of help with the depression that follows combat, the Federal government will give them street corners and jail cells?
Michael Moore gives some hope of help to them, I have to say, have you seen any of his films?
Larry


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Pseudolus
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 11:28 AM

So InOBU, are you saying that Viet Nam Vets were welcomed home with open arms??????   Not in my neighborhood.......


Frank


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: InOBU
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 11:37 AM

Well, Pseudolus: As you know, I live on the lower east side of Manhattan, and I am a Quaker. We did, and in fact, you will find that the anti war movement did more to welcome home Vets during that conflict than did the government. Don't take my word, call the Vietnam Vets against the War, if you need a contact PM me, and I will give you the number of some of the guys, and it was not just Vets who were against the war. Every morning I step out my door, and see right wing Yuppies stepping over Bill, a Silver Star winner, and calling him a bum, it sickens me. Bill and I are old friends, he is a kind and generous fellow who has lived on the streets since the Viet Nam war. Some way to treat heroes, eh? If you are in the North East, come to New York, and meet the vets, see what has become of so many of them. Folks point to a few instances where idiots who long since sold out and now probably work on wall street spit at vets, that was not the anti war movement, it was not the committed workers for peace who are still working for peace while those idiots "grew up".
I don't say this as a wise guy, but really do find out, and help. It is the point that the war supporters and anti war supports are in lock step. We have to stop throwing away young men and women after we use them in the army.
All the best
Larry


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Pseudolus
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 11:54 AM

I totally agree, there's a lot that could and should be done, and I realize that I can't make a blanket statement about the entire country, but for a large majority of Viet Nam Vets, the hatred and disdain for the war was taken out on them by a lot of people. Not many were treated like heroes when they came home and that's my point. How would I feel if I were in Iraq and kept hearing all the negative stuff about what I am doing? I know it would affect me.

I don't have the answer. I totally support anyone's right to express their opinion, including Michael Moore. But when it happens like it did last night, it saddens me to wonder what our troops are thinking when they hear it. It's not bad enough to be away from their families and friends, but they have to hear people on National (and international) TV telling them that what they are doing is wrong.

It's sad, I want it to be over as much as anyone and in fact I wish it never started. But reality is reality, so I pray for a quick and safe return for all of them.......

Frank


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: harvey andrews
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 12:45 PM

Agreed Rick. Moore is a true hero. At the time of Vietnam we had Ochs and his songs as a rallying point for dissent. Moore fills Ochs's role as a nation's conscience. I hope he survives the hatred his free speech will engender in the land of freedom.
Anyone for a verse of "Cops of the world"?


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 01:03 PM

Frank, if the soldiers are thinking about this country and what it is they fight to preserve then they would understand Moore's speech to be the epitome of that which they uphold: free speech. Besides which I am sure they are hearing much, much worse from around the world since the shrub has alienated so many and those many are not quiet in their hatred of him and America.

kat


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Pseudolus
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 01:35 PM

Kat,
It's a very different thing to hear those things from abroad than it is to hear it from your own country. Yet, I'll say again, it is the right of those who have the urge to express their opinions to express them, to friends, in the media, wherever someone will listen. It's just that I myself would not handle it that way.

I have several friends who served the country in the Gulf War and a couple who were involved in Viet Nam including my father-in-law. Every one of them have said that it is demoralizing to hear that the same people they are there to represent are putting down what they are doing or even worse, denying them altogether by saying that "They (the troops) don't represent me, cause I'm against the war."

It's very easy in the comfort of our own homes, in the glow of our computer screens, to say that they should realize that we're just exercising our freedom of speech. I suspect it's a little different with Iraqi troops on one side and the pressure of public opinion on the other.


Frank


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Amos
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 02:13 PM

It would seem to me that if a soldier is representing American values he should celebrate hearing about the open communication of dissenting viewpoints. Is he there for acclaim, after all? Is he there to achieve the impossible goal of unified opinion across a nation? Gimme a break. If I were driving an AAV in Iraq, I would know I was fighting to defend exactly the freedom that Michael Moore exercised last night, and I would be proud of him for upholding the same values I was.

Furthermore, IMHO, if someone is going to take up arms under any circumstances, they really need to be absolutely clear as to why they are doing so, and not be vulnerable to the endless miasma of shifting opinions. Going in to lethal combat based on someone's idea that it's needed, without a clear sense of your own reality on the decision, is pretty risky, if you ask me. I'm not there, and I don't agree that we should have gotten there. But if I were there, it would be balls to the wall and kicking butt to bring down a tyrannical government and get the hell back to my own life, and I sure as hell would not be thrown off because of someone in Hollywood disagreeing with why I should or should not be there.

This may be a lot easier to say from a distance. Of course. But I think it is true.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Peg
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 02:17 PM

I thought Brody was a class act (asked for and got additional speech time and then made some very heartfelt comments). I loved his kissing Halle Berry! And when he went to leave the stage you could see him connecting with her again and she was smiling and seemed okay with it. And I think he'd have done this no matter what woman presented the award...it's just a bit more romantic and picturesque perhaps when the woman is close to his age and a paragon of beauty, in that Hollywood way. The presenter for these actor/actress awards is nearly always the person (actress/actor) who won the year before.

Moore's words seemed somewhat prepared but I am very glad he spoke them. Especially liked hearing "Shame on you Mr. Bush!" in that dogged way he has! Love him or hate him, the man sticks to his convictions and many Americans admire his work on behalf of the working class.

Susan Sarandon was given the obituary tribute segment, no doubt this was intentional because it is known she would be a star who would speak out against the war if given an appropriate opportunity. As it was she walked onstage smiling and flashing a peace sign for several long seconds.

Steve Martin finished up his hosting stint (I thought he was fantastic and in great form) by saying he hoped the troops would make it home safe and said "this is for you." I also thought that was pretty classy.

A great night, one of the better Oscar ceremonies in recent memory.

Rick, I must disagree that actors are on the whole an unintelligent or uneducated lot. I studied acting myself and have met a large number of professional actors over the years and my overwhelming impression is that actors are highly intelligent people. Particularly if they are character actors who must research roles, or method actors who understand the psychology behind a role. Meryl Streep is one of the smartest women in America according to many; she graduated with honors from both Vassar and the Yale School of Drama. Actors who start out studying theatre are encouraged to emphasize textual analysis; not easy for dumb people. I would agree there are some "movie star" types who are a bit bubble-headed; but even a pretty boy like Keanu Reeves is, despite appearances, a fairly intellectual individual, believe it or not. Acting is not easy; it only looks that way. The worse the actor, the more likely their intelligence is fairly low.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 02:17 PM

Make no mistake, Frank, I have never said they do not represent me. Just that I think we need to credit them with a little more critical thinking skills than has been seen here. I wonder how they will feel if they ever hear some of the really demoralising truths about their so-called commander in chief, et alia? This is old history, but just one of the "old" causes which brought about this sorry, sad state of affairs: On 1 August 1990, the day before Iraq invades Kuwait, the US approves the sale of $695 million worth of advanced data transmission devices.

Sources: Amnesty International annual reports; Human Rights Watch World Report 1990; Third World Guide 93-94.

In the end, actions such as that will have a much greater effect than a few words spoken at the Oscars.

Can you imagine what the Civil War must have been like? ON our own soil, brother against brother? I am sure there was plenty of demoralising rhetoric to overcome then, too. It's just a fact, esp. when we do have freedom of speech.

kat


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 02:31 PM

This is a bit more of what Moore said, as reported by MTV:

    Moore, who received a standing ovation when he was announced as winner of the best documentary Oscar for "Bowling for Columbine" (click here for a complete list of winners), made the most incendiary speech of the evening. With all of his fellow nominees onstage with him, he said, "We like nonfiction and we live in fictitious times. We live in a time where we have fictitious election results that elect a fictitious president. We live in a time where we have a man sending us to war for fictitious reasons."

    Amid both cheers and boos, Moore continued to speak his mind, saying ultimately to President Bush that "anytime you've got the pope and the Dixie Chicks against ya, your time is up."


SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 02:38 PM

Peg,

Thread creep: Perhaps because they're older and beyond Hollywood's view of what it takes to be sexy (youth, primarily, because I would argue that Streep and O'Toole still have the second component, good looks), no one was counting when Peter O'Toole gave Meryl Streep THREE kisses, one on each cheek and one on the lips when she gave him his award.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Pseudolus
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 02:41 PM

Kat, Amos et al,
   I agree that all of you have a certain amount of logic on your side. But you're describing what a soldier SHOULD think and be. Maybe they should understand that the freedoms they are fighting for include free speech and some folks are exercising exactly that. I felt that the most logical thing to do was to talk to some folks who have been there and although it's anything BUT a scientific sampling, those few that I have talked to believe that protests like Michael Moore's and the negative media reports about what they are doing are detrimental to the morale of the troops. That doesn't make me right, but it the basis from which I've drawn my opinion. Let's not forget, I never said that he didn't have the right to express his opinion, I just simply disagreed that he should have done it when and where he did. He has the right to talk, I have the right to disagree, right? Now, I did call him a horse's ass but I had that opinion before last night. And in fairness to Mr. Moore, he probably wouldn't like me either.......fair enough.

   And Amos, I would "give you a break" but I never said that "he is there for acclaim" or "He is there to achieve the impossible goal of unified opinion across a nation?" Must have been someone else.....


Frank


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Charley Noble
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 02:52 PM

I'd much rather read these posting than count of network TV to provide me any insight. Thanks!

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 03:05 PM

ANTHONY BREZNICAN, AP Entertainment Writer evidently missed the implication of what Steve Martin actually said. He wrote: "It was so sweet backstage, you should have seen it," Martin joked. "The Teamsters were helping Michael Moore into the back of his limo."

In actuality, Steve Martin quipped: "It was so sweet backstage, you should have seen it. The Teamsters were helping Michael Moore into the trunk of his limo."

A lot different, given historical mob connections...


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: DougR
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 04:29 PM

Peg: Interesting. You thought Brody was a "class-act." Someone else on this thread thought he was a groper! Just goes to show how two people can view something and come away with completely divergent opinions.

I agree that it was the best AA show in years.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Amos
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 04:30 PM

Pseudolus:

Well, I'm not sure why he shouldn't have spoken up when and where he did, but of course you're quite entitled to your opinion. In order to get demoralized by comments like Moore's you have to feel dependent on them. Morale comes from winning, does it not? Hence my remarks. In a game as absolute as battle, winning doesn't have much to do with approbation from film makers, after all. It has to do with ducking death and/or delivering it.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Peg
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 04:49 PM

Stilly River:

Make no mistake, *I* was counting!!! A beautiful moment and one of the most memorable of the night (as was Nicole Kidman addressing her mother and daughter in the audience). A very gentlemanly and romantic kiss and clearly given by two people who knew they were equally respected in their profession.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Peg
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 04:55 PM

Doug:

I think whoever saw Brody's actions as "groping" perhaps did not notice his contact with Miss Berry after he had finished accepted his award. The friendly and pleasant facial expressions and body language between them convinced me that his behavior was not offensive to her, ultimately, despite her looks of surprise at first.
It's Hollywood; outrageous behavior of a romantic or sexual nature is usually encouraged. There is a long tradition of the "sexiest" leading men being gay.
That kiss reminded me of the photograph of the American WW2 soldier grabbing hold of and kissing a nearby nurse on the day the war ended. Acceptable behavior because of the passion of the moment. Brody is young and relatively unknown to receive such an honor. I am sure he wanted to express the joy of that moment in every way he could.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Blues=Life
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 06:50 PM

Just a few facts.

Judy R says:
'Moore said backstage to the press something like, "I know you guys'll all write about the chorus of boos, but there were about five boos, and the rest were cheers..."'

What MM said:
"Don't report that there was a split decision in the hall because five loud people booed. Those were all my friends and relatives. Hollywood's got such a bad rap for being left-wing Democrats, I thought it would be really cool if a bunch of them booed to show a diversity of opinion."

Peg says:"many Americans admire his work on behalf of the working class."

What Entertainment Weekly reported:
Among those booing Moore's speech were the production's stagehands, one of whom angrily confronted the filmmaker backstage, according to the Times.

A Class Act:
''Chicago'' producer and Best Picture winner Martin Richards said that, though stars like Colin Farrell wore the peace pin, he wasn't interested. ''I have a pin that says peace, and it's in my heart,'' Richards said. ''I wouldn't wear the peace pin because I wouldn't want any soldier to see me wearing it and think it's about him. I made that mistake with Vietnam, and I regret how that may have made the men who fought over there feel. But I do hope there is peace. I do want this war to be over.''

Personally, I find Moore very entertaining. I find Rush entertaining in exactly the same way. They are both so far to one side, that they can not see the possibility for a middle ground. Standing somewhere in the middle, both look pretty out of touch.
Peace,
Blues


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 07:08 PM

Well danged! First of all I will repeat that my thoughts, hopes and prayers are with everyone affected by the Bush administrations to pull the trigger on an avoidable war.

But as for the thoughts of the current service people and what they are thinking, I hope it's not about the government's position that the former Gulf War service folk don't suffer from symptoms that are most likely related to the DU's that were used. There are a lot of folks who are sick who are being told that either they aren't or to just shake it off.

As fir the Vietnam Vets, Larry said it best. Who ever it is that fells compelled to spread "The Lie" just ain't in touch with the vast majority of us who worked as peace activists during the Vietnam War. Our brothers were the vets. But Boss Hog likes to keep people divided because it keeps the focus off the real crooks!

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 07:20 PM

Here I go having to explain myself again. Ha!
When I said who gives a fuck who likes it, I was thinking and talking for M. Moore.(I know, I should know better around here to speak for other people)You see, he gets up on stage and says what he thinks about things and didn't care about the outcome or what others would think about the outcome. That was my take on the whole thing, just like others who speak out on what they believe, including myself. I realize some things I say, will and could be offensive to others, but I will still speak my opinion and if you don't like it you can disagree but, I have still spoke my opinion wheather you like it or not. So I guess as I write this, I'm thinking why should I explain myself. You all speak your opinions (Troll and TIA) regardless of others thoughts toward the outcome. If you don't I stand corrected.
TIA, comparing me to the Bush admin., you obviously don't give a fuck what I think either.
Troll, I guess I could have just made this answer shorter by telling you I just don't get hung up on what people think of me.
Peace. Rustic


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 07:33 PM

Hmmmmm. RR, I musta missed somethin' here. I don't think of troll-ster and TIA as being on the same side of any issue other than breathing.

Like I said, I musta missed somethin'.

But I gotta agree with you about Mike's statements. Hey, for him to have done anything but what he did would have been like not dancing with the gal you took to the dance?

And, folks gotta just noe give in or give up in the face of a lot of pressure to "just get along". Look where that has gotten us? A fake president and a real war!

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: SINSULL
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 08:29 PM

Interesting note: This was the least watched of all the televised Academy Awards. Apparently America had other things on its mind.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 08:44 PM

Well, it's tough competing with basketball and with all the will-they-cancel-the-awards-or-won't-they talk the message was clear that the awards were only, at best, borderline *American*. You know, with Hollywood taking a few sorties itself by this current administration, oh, so mild, but sorties none the less.

Bush has played his daddy's class-warfare to the tee. And Hollywood knows that it's gonna take a 9-11 of their own to get back on good footing. So right now, they loose.

Remind anyone of another time in America's history?

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Melani
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 09:55 PM

I had faith in Michael Moore, and he did not disappoint. Go, Michael! Keep it up!


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: GUEST,Bo in KY
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 11:37 PM

Two words: self-promotion. I doubt that Mr. Moore is all that concerned with the "truth" or "speaking his mind". He did not give a principled, reasoned argument against the war. He gave a few sound bites guarunteed to result in increased ticket sales to his movie. Isn't that what movie-making is all about? For all the talk of movies as some transcendent medium of conveying conviction and truth, they are still a commercial medium, bottom line. That is ultimately what is behind the Academy Awards - promotion. Why bother with the subtlety and ambiguity of issues of war when there's money to be made with an emotional tirade? "Shame on you, Mr, Bush! Shame! Shame!" he sounded like a lady at church I know, or my mother...

His "speech", if I didn't know the context, sounded like Mr. Moore was anti-Bush more so than anti-war. In fact, Moore is cynical enough that I would guess he is not principally anti-war, just anti-war-if-it's-pursued-by-a-Republican-president.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Troll
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 11:49 PM

If anyone is interested, go to www.drudgereport and read what Time Magazine has to say about Moores speech. It's an interesting analysis.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 11:54 PM

You have a wise mother, Bo in ky...

Hey, given the time constraints anf the forum, Mike took what was available, Nothing less...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: DougR
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 12:51 AM

Rustic Rebel: I would think that would be apparant to anyone who reads your posts. Nice of you to clarify it though.

Peg: I agree with you on this one. I saw nothing untoward in what Brody did. The Pianist was a helluva movie I thought. I'm glad he won.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Peg
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 12:57 AM

Blues wrote:

Peg says:"many Americans admire his work on behalf of the working class."

What Entertainment Weekly reported:
Among those booing Moore's speech were the production's stagehands, one of whom angrily confronted the filmmaker backstage, according to the Times.

Sorry to break these "facts" to ya, but "stagehands" working gigs like this make union scale wages and have pretty decent working conditions and all sorts of job security from their strong union affiliations. Moore speaks out for the working class who lose their jobs because of layoffs and downsizing due to corporate greed and efforts to maximize profits (and create huge CEO salaries) at the expense of workers. These conditions do not tend to affect the entertainment industry's union-scale workers in the same way.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Blackcatter
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 01:52 AM

Peg said: I am sure he wanted to express the joy of that moment in every way he could.

I guess I should be thankful that all he chose to do was plant a long kiss on Halle. Seems you might have granted him even more.

I was the person who first mentioned that I thought his action was unfortunate. I did see him being nice to her as they walked off stage. I also saw him in the interview room bragging about it and saying something to the effect that you have the take the chance if you get it. Sounds like a man taking advantage of a woman to me. Where I come from, a kiss like that implies a great deal of familiarity between the two. Maybe they have that, I certainly don't know, but I still though it to be demeaning.

Yes the rules are different in Hollywood. And, of course, Halle probably didn't mind it, but it probably happens all the time to her. Women who are repeatedly beaten by their husbands get used to it as well (not to imply that the kiss was anywhere near the same level as spouse abuse).

Hell, you know what, I was going to write more, but screw it. The statements above which disagree with mine imply that I didn't really understand it all - I'm sick and tired of people assuming that just because I (or anyone) disagrees with them, they must not have the full understanding. True that can happen, but having a difference of opinion can come from much more that the basic facts of a situation.

It is insulting to imply that those people who disagree with you are simply ignorant or misinformed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Troll
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 02:12 AM

Blackcatter, It's called Argumentum ad Hominem. Discredit the man and you discredit his argument. It's a common enough ploy and you really shouldn't be surprised to find it used on you.
It saves the accuser the drudgery of actually having to think about refuting any points you may have made.
It's so much easier to dismiss you as an ignorant nitwit who doesn't read the right newspapers or whatever.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Blackcatter
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 03:16 AM

Hey Troll,

I'm not surprised. Just needed a reminder why I don't argue politics around here.

I'll go back to laughing at the people who take it all too seriously. That even occasionally gives me a chance to laugh at myself.

"all my life's a circle, sunrise and sundown . . ."


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 07:34 AM

Another version of ad hominem that has been seen around here: anyone who makes a statement I disagree with is only doing it for the money. Anyone who has ever been paid for writing a book, making a movie, making a speech, singing a song, serving in a political office -- can be discredited simply by pointing out that they were paid, or are hoping to be paid. Except the people I agree with, of course--they're doing it out of the highest principle.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: TIA
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 08:01 AM

Rustic Rebel - slow down there. I believe you misunderstood my point. I was actually taking a swipe at the folks who were bangin on you and Michael Moore. Paraphrased, the exchange went sumpin like this:

Rustic Rebel ends a post with "who gives a fuck if you don't like it."

Troll replies "if that's the way you feel, what does that say about you?"

TIA says "it means your perfect for implementing the Bush foreign policy" (which has made a habit of telling other countries to fuck off if they don't like it).

I've been accused of being oblique, perhaps I was again.

Bobert - having been informed that Troll breathes, I have begun holding my breath. Wonder how long I can hold oudkrmlsporljglkhg...


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Peg
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 10:01 AM

Blackcatter wrote:

Peg said: I am sure he wanted to express the joy of that moment in every way he could.

I guess I should be thankfull that all he chose to do was plant a long kiss on Halle. Seems you might have granted him even more.
--why do you say that? No need for you to speculate onmy behalf; it "seems" you are doing so to make yourself feel justified in this.


I was the person who first mentioned that I thought his action was unfortunate. I did see him being nice to her as they walked off stage.
--and she was being nice to him.

I also saw him in the interview room bragging about it and saying something to the effect that you have the take the chance if you get it.
--in what way was he "bragging?" That is YOUR word. What did he say, exactly, to justify this criticism?

Sounds like a man taking advantage of a woman to me. Where I come from, a kiss like that implys a great deal of familiarity between the two. Maybe they have that, I certainly don't know, but I still though it to be demeaning.
--they're ACTORS. Actors engage in love scenes constantly, often with never having met the other person before they start shooting the scene! THEY both knew it was part of the whole performance atmosphere.


Yes the rules are different in Hollywood. And, of course, Halle probably didn't mind it, but it probably happens all the time to her. Women who are repeatedly beaten by their husbands get used to it as well (not to imply that the kiss was anywhere near the same level as spose abuse).
--then why did you make that dumb comparison???


Hell, you know what, I was going to write more, but screw it. The statements above which disagree with mine imply that I didn't really understand it all - I'm sick and tired of people assuming that just because I (or anyone) disagrees with them, they must not have the full understanding.
--I did NOT say you didn't understand, but that perhaps you did not SEE as much of their exchange as I did.
But after reading the rest of yoru comments, I think you really do not understand the social subtleties and implications of the situation...you want to see this as abuse of women. I just don't see it that way.


True that can happen, but having a difference of opinion can come from much more that the basic facts of a situation.
--true enough. But you are making some big leaps in logic, e.g. comparing a kiss to phsyical abuse???

It is insulting to imply that those people who disagree with you are simply ignorant or misinformed.
--I never did that, only suggested you did not have all the information available from watching. But now it sounds like you did see it and still come to the conclusion that Ms. Berry was taken advantage of. I think you're making a big deal out of something which occurs quite naturally in the Hollywood environment.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Peg
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 10:05 AM

Troll wrote:

Blackcatter, It's called Argumentum ad Hominem. Discredit the man and you discredit his argument. It's a common enough ploy and you really shouldn't be surprised to find it used on you.
--I did not discredit anyone. I suggested the person was not working from the same information. Quit trying to stir up trouble.


It saves the accuser the drudgery of actually having to think about refuting any points you may have made.
--But I have now refuted all of them. I notice you aren't dealing with any facts here, just trying to start a fight. Grow up.


It's so much easier to dismiss you as an ignorant nitwit who doesn't read the right newspapers or whatever.
--no newspapers were mentioned. This was about what was seen on television. I did not use the words "ignorant nitwit" in my original post and I resent the implication that that is anything like what I meant. Quit your asinine troll behavior, please.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: InOBU
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 10:35 AM

FOLKIES! Take a deep breath for a moment... look I have met Peg and troll, and frankly, I can tell ya both, you'd like each other... so lets keep it friendly, a little humor is fine, but lets keep it lovingly respectful? Hokay!?
Be nice
Larry


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Blackcatter
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 11:25 AM

Oh come on Peg - you say the rules in Hollywood are different and you imply your acceptance of that. Just tell me how far you are willing to let people go? You're the one who said "I am sure he wanted to express the joy of that moment in every way he could." All I was asking is just how far do you think he could have gone before you thought he was going to far? It's a simple question. One you didn't answer.

Do you think that groping her would have been fine? Or was the kiss "just right?"

Would it have been ok for him to pat her ass like in the NFL?

Would it have been alright if he had kissed a 15 year old actress - certainly that happens on screen sometimes so it must be alright in Hollywood.

Of course, rape, murder, & incest all happen on screen as well, are those acceptible behaviors for Hollywoodians to do on stage (since you seem to imply little distinction between acting and real life. Or is winning an Oscar just another acting opportunity?

"I did NOT say you didn't understand, but that perhaps you did not SEE as much of their exchange as I did. But after reading the rest of yoru comments, I think you really do not understand the social subtleties and implications of the situation"

You're right, you didn't say that I didn't understand - until your latest post. Don't you hate it when Troll is right? You disagree with me, so of couse I must not understand.

Oh and by the way - exactly how are you an expert on what is proper and improper in "Hollywood"?

please.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Tam the bam fraeSaltcoatsScotland
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 01:29 PM

I just got the a wee bit of his speech, and I thought that it was great.

Freedom of Speech, is that not what living in America is about.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: winniemih
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 01:43 PM

I didn't see the awards presentations, and really appreciate hearing all your comments on what went on. I am so glad that Michael Moore voiced his thoughts ( but indeed who could have stopped him), for he gave voice to what many of us are thinking.   
    I just returned from 3 months in Costa Rica, and I know from polls there that the vast majority of Costa Rican people do not support this invasion/war, even though they remain friendly to Americans. They seem to be able to separate the American people from the government. What I read in the press while there correlated with Stilly River Sage's comments about it being "painfully obvious who is benefitting from this war". And then on my return, when I read in our local newspaper, the Oregonian (hardly a radical publication ) about Bush's proposed tax cuts for the very wealthy; $440 BILLION !!!!!!!! over the next few years, and also on top of that another $2 TRILLION !!!!!!! over the next decade for the top 1% of American taxpayers ( I am not making up these figures, I have the column right in front of me), it illuminates the whole picture even more.
    I like to refer to this war not by the administration's name Operation Iraqi Freedom, but by the more appropriate "Operation Iraqi Liberation", or O.I.L., ( a title which I'm sure the administration was careful to stay clear of).                                 

Winnie


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: DougR
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 03:09 PM

Saltcoats: no one has said, or implied, he didn't have the right to say what he did. One or two ...well, okay, maybe just one of us thought it was not in good taste to use a ceremony like that to express his view.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: GUEST,Mars
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 03:53 PM

I'm sure the families of the POWs were thrilled to find out that their loved ones were only in a fictitious situation. Personally I'm relieved to know that none of the images I'm seeing on the TV aren't real. But gosh, they're doing a really good job, huh? Maybe the news media should get the Oscar next year for Best Drama?

If all these Hollywood people really wanted to make a difference, they'd go over to Iraq and make a human chain around Baghdad. But I don't see them doing that, do you?

Talking doesn't take that much guts. DOING does.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: InOBU
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 04:28 PM

Gee mars... frankly I don't think the POWs care much why they are there at present, I belive they are living in hopes of coming home, and I join them in that.
Cheers
Larry


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Marion
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 05:00 PM

I saw a clip on the news of Brody kissing Halle Berry, and I agree with Blackcatter that it was very rude. Even if she really didn't mind, he didn't know that ahead of time.

Hypothetical question - if Halle had slapped him or looked angry or in any other way asserted her right to decide who kisses her, who would come off worse in public opinion? Him for touching her without consent, or her for not being a good sport about it?

Marion


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: GUEST,Mars
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 05:37 PM

I want them to come home too, Larry. But I think it was an insult to them for Moore to insinuate that the situation is "fictitious." He probably would not think so if he had a gun pointing in his face.

This isn't Saving Private Ryan here, friends. This is the real thing, and as a famous General once said, it is all hell.

Since there isn't a relationship between Brody and Berry, the kiss is technically fictitious as well, and so must be all right.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: DougR
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 05:41 PM

Correction: maybe there are two or three that thought it inappropriate. :>)

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 06:06 PM

Back to the original question, Moore's wording at the Oscars: Mars, you can play with words--if "fictitious" wasn't the best word selection, how about "fraudulent?" As in "the U.S. has gone to war for fraudulent reasons as presented by the Resident of the U.S." Regardless of the wording, Bush has put U.S. troops in harms way for a piss-poor reason.

Perhaps we should just cut to the chase: If Bush will call an end to this war, we'll stop taxing the income of the top 1% earners in the U.S. so he can stop using corporations and political clout to pull all of these combative strings to get richer and richer. (Robbing Peter to pay Paul--if you can't get it from the tax rolls, get it from the "rebuild Iraq" budget). We'll just let the rest of the population pay their regular taxes instead of this fraud that allows everyone to experience tax "cuts" when in fact it's simply sleight of hand to keep the rich from paying any taxes. This is all a classic case of "Wag the Dog." And its a colossal insult to the world that he's getting away with it.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Sam L
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 07:20 PM

I'm sorry to have missed the oscars, it always restores my lack of faith in humankind, and now I may tend to be dangerously optimistic.

   I'm finding myself in a curious middle position lately. I don't mind Moore's comments in the least, don't find them in any way inappropriate, and yet I don't think he strained his reserve of courage in making them, either.

   But they're hyperbolic, and I'm not in the mood. There are better, more sensible comments posted here, above, from many people. The power of Moore's work isn't in his clever little sound-bytes.

I'm not sure the election results were fiction--unusual, okay, not what I wanted, sure. I'm not sure how Bush is a fictional President--meaning he is a puppet? or because he lacked the popular vote? Or both? Or What? Because he isn't as bright or experienced or credible as a chief exec ought to be? All right, I'm okay with that. He instills deep worry--I'm fatigued with it--generally acts as though he were elected with a firm mandate--that's a fiction.

As I read the quote above Moore didn't say it was a fictional war, but that the reasons for it were fiction. Well I think it's very mixed and doubt anyone has all the motives, even their own, all neatly inventoried. That's a Rush Limbaugh kind of thing, impuning dark motives, even to positive results that he can't dismiss, and I'm willing to grant that the better, nobler motives are mixed in there a little too. Liberals don't own them. Everyone seems better informed, and better able to predict the future, than I. I hope it turns out better than the Best Picture award usually does.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 08:07 PM

Well done, Michael. I am reminded of Marlene Dietrich and others like her who had the courage to speak out against the Nazis when most of their peers remained silent and complicit.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Blackcatter
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 08:20 PM

Thanks Marion


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Blues=Life
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 06:53 AM

Peg writes:

"..."stagehands" working gigs like this make union scale wages and have pretty decent working conditions and all sorts of job security from their strong union affiliations.

Moore speaks out for the working class who lose their jobs because of layoffs and downsizing due to corporate greed and efforts to maximize profits (and create huge CEO salaries) at the expense of workers.

These conditions do not tend to affect the entertainment industry's union-scale workers in the same way."




Oh.

I see.

Thanks Peg. I didn't understand. I always thought the term "Working Class" included union workers. And people who work. It's the unemployed worker who USED to work who makes up the working class.

Got it.
Thanks.

Blues


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Peg
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 10:44 AM

Blackcatter wrote:

Oh come on Peg - you say the rules in Hollywood are different and you imply your acceptance of that. Just tell me how far you are willing to let people go? You're the one who said "I am sure he wanted to express the joy of that moment in every way he could." All I was asking is just how far do you think he could have gone before you thought he was going to far? It's a simple question. One you didn't answer.
--You did NOT ask that, not in those words.
And I think the question is an impertinent one. He did what he did and I think speculating further is something not worth doing in ths case.


Do you think that groping her would have been fine? Or was the kiss "just right?"
--Like I said the kiss was lovely. You seem to be projecting your idea of "groping"--perhaps that's what YOU would have done? Kissing and groping, on television and off, are two very different things.





Would it have been ok for him to pat her ass like in the NFL?
--see, now you're just being ridiculous.


Would it have been alright if he had kissed a 15 year old actress - certainly that happens on screen sometimes so it must be alright in Hollywood.
--yeah, why not?


Of course, rape, murder, & incest all happen on screen as well, are those acceptible behaviors for Hollywoodians to do on stage (since you seem to imply little distinction between acting and real life. Or is winning an Oscar just another acting opportunity?
-again, you're being ridiculous. I feel sorry for you if this is the sort of crap on your mind.
And when did I suggest acting and real life were the same? Stop putting words in my mouth.



"I did NOT say you didn't understand, but that perhaps you did not SEE as much of their exchange as I did. But after reading the rest of yoru comments, I think you really do not understand the social subtleties and implications of the situation"

You're right, you didn't say that I didn't understand - until your latest post. Don't you hate it when Troll is right? You disagree with me, so of couse I must not understand.
--no, you do not understand because you apparently have a very skewed view of the world...



Oh and by the way - exactly how are you an expert on what is proper and improper in "Hollywood"?

please.
--well, I work as a film critic and have met and interviewed a number of Hollywood actors and filmmakers....had a lovely conversation with Genevieve Bujold just the other night in fact, and she complimented my singing...so, I do probably have more familiarity with this social milieu than YOU do.

Blues wrote:

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Blues=Life - PM
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 06:53 AM

Peg writes:

"..."stagehands" working gigs like this make union scale wages and have pretty decent working conditions and all sorts of job security from their strong union affiliations.

Moore speaks out for the working class who lose their jobs because of layoffs and downsizing due to corporate greed and efforts to maximize profits (and create huge CEO salaries) at the expense of workers.

These conditions do not tend to affect the entertainment industry's union-scale workers in the same way."




Oh.

I see.

Thanks Peg. I didn't understand. I always thought the term "Working Class" included union workers. And people who work. It's the unemployed worker who USED to work who makes up the working class.
--when did I say that?
My point was that the emphasis of Moore's films is often upon disenfranchised workers (including union workers, as with Roger and Me)--and that union workers in Hollywood and New York (theatre and film) are among those with the best job security and working conditions, so "working class" is not a term that means quite the same thing as it does for workers with more tenuous job security or poorer working conditions. Sorry I did not make that more clear. You seemed to think a Hollywood stagehand at the Oscars was a good example of a "working class" employee and I wanted to point out that such a worker was treated far better by his/her union than most.
And I know this because I have worked alongside these people quite a lot over the years.


Got it.
Thanks.

Blues
--through being sarcastic for now?


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: GUEST,Mars
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 10:49 AM

I guess Michael Moore doesn't make any money at all from his filmmaking ventures? He's standing up for the working class? That's just about as logical as --- what's his name, John Edwards? ---- the guy who wants to run for President who's a millionaire lawyer who "stands up for the working class." Right, and I've been to the moon.

Let's get something straight here. Presidents don't get elected in the US by the popular vote. They get elected by the Electoral College, which is laid out pretty plain in the Constitution.

George W. Bush wasn't the first President to land in the office this way. I believe there was a similar situation early in US history - with John Adams, perhaps? I don't remember. I will have to go look it up. But the 2000 election was not unprecedented.

Conveniently all of you have forgotten that Bill Clinton didn't have the "popular" vote, either. Less than 50% of the people who voted elected him.

As far as the war being fraudulent, did any of you see the press conference this morning? The General said that some of the missiles fired by Iraqi troops were missiles they said they didn't have.

People, put your emotions away for a little while and take a look at the facts. Throw away everyone else's opinions but your own, and examine your own thoughts very carefully. There are too many of you here just jumping on the bandwagon without giving it any real consideration.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 11:21 AM

Naw, Mars, you just want people to jump on YOUR bandwagon. Weighing opinions is something we do very well here. Including weighing yours. We all understand perfectly well about that electoral college. That's why the big fight in Florida, after all.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Sam L
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 11:23 AM

Mars, yes, as I said, Moore's remarks were hyperbole. I think people know that, but his remarks express their feelings and frustration. I look forward to seeing his film.

I'm sure Moore makes some money from his films, even his first, which I believe he mortgaged his house to make, and which is a great, sad film. I think Bush makes some money being president, and 40g from his own tax cut. I'm paying a portion of his gain, it seems. And I think even soldiers fighting in the cause of liberation, they make money too. That someone makes money doing something doesn't necesarily alter it.

   Moore does speak eloquently for the working class, in his work, and Bush is really the president, but he is not one of the best, conservative or liberal. I blame Gore, for wasting his campain on trying to prove what was self-evident--that he was better qualified. That was really very dumb. It's a junior lawyer's mistake, because when you try to prove what's obvious, you introduce doubt, and bore people out of their minds in the bargain.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 11:28 AM

Mars-Just because someone does not belong to a demographic does not mean that they don't care about them. To say that a wealthy man can't care about the poor is about the same as saying that white people can't care about the plight of minorities. The issue with Bush is not that he didn't get the popular vote, but that there were considerable irregularities concerning the electoral votes of Florida. finally, no one said the war was fraudulent, just its reasons. Do you really think that two missiles that might have gone more than 93 miles is enough reason to go to war?


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Blackcatter
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 11:40 AM

Peg,

The simple thing is that I expressed my feelings and instead of just saying you disagreed with them, you implied that I'm ignorant of the situation. That was an insult because you have no idea whether or not that was true. You do not know me.

You are part of what makes America great - you are "big brother" - "I know better so listen to me and don't bother finding out yourself."

You belittle my opinion and hwhen I try to ask a direct question, you blow it off.

Sad, truly sad.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: GUEST,Mars
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 11:59 AM

Of course a wealthy man can care about the poor. Andrew Carnegie was one such person. It just seems funny to me that someone can become wealthy by serving the poor.

I'm not completely convinced about the reasons for the war, one way or the other. But the point is, they kept saying they didn't have these weapons, and apparently they did.

Stilly, I don't have a bandwagon. I'm just asking people to think for a minute, that's all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Beccy
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 12:36 PM

Well, the illustrious Michael Moore himself will be appearing in my nearest large city (Rochester, NY) tonight. I'm just wondering if I can stay up late enough to go stare him down at his appearance or whether I'll give into those old pregnancy hormones and fall asleep immediately after my kids do. Maybe I can just send a proxy starer who can do that "mad" look as well as I do. Hmmm.....
It's worth considering.


Beccy


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Peg
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 01:36 PM

Blackcatter: grow up for Christ's sake. These over-the-top insults of yours are for the birds. I'm "Big Brother?"
Okay, fine, then you're Pollyanna.

You are STILL putting words in my mouth and I'll thank you to stop doing it.

Your "direct question" was obviously sarcastic so why should I honor it?

I did not use the word "ignorant"--you are making my original comments FAR worse than they were, and you have continued to escalate this. That has been your choice. I can't help it if your self-esteem issues get in the way of your having a conversation.

Beccy: I doubt your "staring down" Michael Moore will have much effect on the cheering and applause that auditorium will be resounding with...
I used to live in Rochester and I think the working people who have lost jobs at Kodak and Xerox over the years might appreciate what this man has to say...


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 02:03 PM

Carnegie cared about the poor? That's why he called in the Pinkerton thugs during the Homestead Strike?


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: GUEST,Mars
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 03:44 PM

I don't know about the Homestead Strike, although I do vaguely remember that Carnegie was a rather relentless businessman. I will have to go look that up too. I am given to understand, however, that he gave a LOT of money to causes that helped the poor. If I am mistaken in that regard, I apologize.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 04:09 PM

I hope Halle Berry's husband popped Brodie a good one for assaulting his wife like that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Blues=Life
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 04:31 PM

Peg, I'm still confused by what you mean.(Really, so help me out here.)
The point I made is that "working class" folks were booing the man about whom you said "many Americans admire his work on behalf of the working class." It sounded as if these "working class" union stage hands didn't think much of Moore's point of view.

You replied:
"You seemed to think a Hollywood stagehand at the Oscars was a good example of a "working class" employee and I wanted to point out that such a worker was treated far better by his/her union than most."

Now isn't that the pinacle for which working class folks are striving for? Aren't they still working class? Do you have to belong to a crappy union, or be poorly paid, or just un-employeed to be working class?

The reality of it is, I think if you interviewed "the working class", whoever they might be (you pick 'em), I think you might find little support for Moore's message. In fact, I think that many of them would probably boo MM too. (Whose kids do you think are serving overseas, those of the actors and studio owners, or those of working class families?)

Then again, I could be wrong.

Peace,
Blues


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Beccy
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 04:36 PM

Peg- That's nice that you used to live in Rochester. I still live here, and I find that there is a lot of support for the war here. He'll probably get a lot of applause, but I'd venture to say that he'd get that at about any college campus in America with the grand exception of Hillsdale and maybe a couple others.

Beccy


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 04:47 PM

Blues=Life-You're right. Most of the people serving in Iraq are probably from working-class families. I'd think that the families would be more likely to support Moore because of that, unless they WANT their kids getting shot at.

CarolC-Halle Berry didn't seem to mind. She was laughing about it when he went offstage. Hardly seem to qualify as an assault, and I'm sure she can take care of herself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 04:56 PM

I still hope her husband popped him good. What Brodie did was incredibly disrespectful.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 05:35 PM

Actually, Carnegie gave a lot of money, late in life, to causes that helped to ease his conscience for the way in which he acquired his fortune. There are a number of good biographies of him that make just this point. Two good works on the Homestead Strike are Leon Wolff's _Lockout_ NY Harper & Row 1965 and William Serrin's _Homestead_ NY Times Books 1992


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Kim C
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 05:36 PM

Is Halle married right now? Who knows that they didn't plan the whole thing from the start! ;-)

I didn't see the show so I can't really comment about Moore's comments.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Beccy
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 05:43 PM

KimC- A transcript of his statement from Drudge:


"On behalf of our producers Kathleen Glynn and Michael Donovan from Canada, I'd like to thank the Academy for this. I have invited my fellow documentary nominees on the stage with us, and we would like to — they're here in solidarity with me because we like nonfiction. We like nonfiction and we live in fictitious times. We live in the time where we have fictitious election results that elects a fictitious president. We live in a time where we have a man sending us to war for fictitious reasons. Whether it's the fictition (sic) of duct tape or fictition (sic) of orange alerts we are against this war, Mr. Bush. Shame on you, Mr. Bush, shame on you. And any time you got the Pope and the Dixie Chicks against you, your time is up. Thank you very much."


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 05:48 PM

the only thing Moore did wrong was call Junior "mr"....Junior does not deserve that title of respect....


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Mrrzy
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 06:56 PM

Hear hear! But then again, don't make fun or poor Dammit Janet either!


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: GUEST,amergin
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 07:47 PM

sorry that last guest was me.

Hi there, Mrr!


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 08:48 PM

Contentious Courtiers, mudcat folks
Let's not lose sight of truth
Pretentious lawyers tell our jokes
But please be not uncooth

Thus and alas, extend your hand
I'm trying to myself
This too shall pass, strike up the band
Let's sing for all good health

This fighting hurts our folking team
We're all in this together
Provoking words of peace can't dream
Take not offence, not ever!

...well, we can try! You are all wonderful. ttr


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Troll
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 09:31 PM

Blackcatter, you see what I mean. Offer up a definition regarding ANY post of Pegs that is in any critical of her or that Could br construed as critical of her and you get "Grow up" and "asinine" and other such disparaging terms.
Her response was especially humerous since I never mentioned her name; I simply responded to your post.
It is unfortunate that there are so many thin-skinned people in the world; people who feel that their every utterance is golden and worthy of enshrinement in some repository of wisdom, while anything that anyone else says that doesn't agree with their sacred pronouncements is ignorant, stupid, immature and/ or asinine, to name a few.
Oh well, there's a special corner of Hell reserved for those who try to clarify things. I should have known better.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: DougR
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 02:15 AM

Mars: you asking us to THINK! Jeeze, you dreamer you!

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 08:22 AM

I loved Moore's truncated speech. It took the sting out of Bill Maher selling out (yet again) later in the evening (on his newish program, Real Time With Bill Maher, on HBO). I probably should have expected it, but I really was suprised by his "I used to oppose the war, but now that it's started, we all have to pull together and fellate the president"-type statements. I was heartened to see that Tim Robbins (in an anti-war t-shirt) was a guest, but he wasn't given much of a chance to speak his mind, as Maher spent almost the entire show talking about the Academy Awards (which had not happened as of the shows taping) and cracking some absolutely daring jokes about celebrity boob-jobs. Funny stuff, Bill.

Moore, though, is GOD. And I miss his tv shows. :(

---Lepus Rex


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 08:41 AM

Oh, and I think I was more offended by Adrien Brody's support of (paedophile anal-rapist, fugitive) Roman Polanski than by his mauling Halle Berry. She seemed amused, and kissed back. (Unlike the child Polanski raped)

---Lepus Rex


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Peg
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 10:04 AM

Blues wrote:

Peg, I'm still confused by what you mean.(Really, so help me out here.)
--okay, I will try but I may get confused myself.

The point I made is that "working class" folks were booing the man about whom you said "many Americans admire his work on behalf of the working class." It sounded as if these "working class" union stage hands didn't think much of Moore's point of view.
--first of all, it was ONE stagehand who was mentioned...and the reaction of anyone in that audience or theatre is not reflective of everyonein America; how could it be?


You replied:
"You seemed to think a Hollywood stagehand at the Oscars was a good example of a "working class" employee and I wanted to point out that such a worker was treated far better by his/her union than most."

Now isn't that the pinacle for which working class folks are striving for? Aren't they still working class? Do you have to belong to a crappy union, or be poorly paid, or just un-employeed to be working class?
--yes, I agree such working conditions are what working people strive for and the labor movement has worked for this. I am involved in a union effort myself at the moment. My point was that those who do NOT belong to such successful (or fortunate) unions might be more likely to support Moore since he champions working people who have been shafted (more likely to have happened to auto workers than to Equity stagehands). In other words, not everyone in the "working class" has suffered the same at the hands of corporations; Moore seems to be concerned with this distinction.


The reality of it is, I think if you interviewed "the working class", whoever they might be (you pick 'em), I think you might find little support for Moore's message.
--I disagree; what about the people in his films?? But in part you may be right that anyone asked to watch a documentary might be put off; my experience when watching the press screening of Bowling for Columbine was when people wandered in (as they do in multi-plexes, seeming to think catching part of a movie in addition to theone they paid to see is somehow a worthwhile thing to do) they soon wandered out again, muttering or complaining. To them this sort of thing isn't a "real" movie.


In fact, I think that many of them would probably boo MM too. (Whose kids do you think are serving overseas, those of the actors and studio owners, or those of working class families?)
--a fair point, but I agree with whoever said that parents of armed service personnel overseas might be happy that someone is pointing out the folly of this invasion. Not all families support their kids being in the military.


Then again, I could be wrong.
--any of us could be; and much of what we are talking about is very subjective. Thank you for your respectful questions.


Peace,
Blues



Troll wrote:

Blackcatter, you see what I mean.
--excuse me, Troll, but why are you trying to insinuate Blackcatter into your little game? What does any of this have to do with you? You are just like the playground bully who is too cowardly to fight anyone himself but likes to egg on other kids to fight each other.

Offer up a definition regarding ANY post of Pegs that is in any critical of her or that Could br construed as critical of her and you get "Grow up" and "asinine" and other such disparaging terms.
--But your tone and choice of language in these posts IS asinine and immature. I am perfectly capable of acceptingthat someone disagrees with me. You think being "critical" of someone on a personal level should not be responded to? You use petty personal insults to try and make a point, rather than the traditional modes of argument. Such behavior is traditionally responded to in kind. If you respectfully disagree with someone and explain why, you will be treated with respect (as Blues has tried to do and as I thought he deserved in kind--both of us perhaps taking a page from Thomas the Rhymer's thoughtful ditty).


Her response was especially humerous since I never mentioned her name; I simply responded to your post.
--yes, it's very HUMOROUS that you think you are cleverly ganging up with others to attack me. Must make you feel all righteous inside. But why not let Blackcatter respond himself? (I assume it's a he).


It is unfortunate that there are so many thin-skinned people in the world; people who feel that their every utterance is golden and worthy of enshrinement in some repository of wisdom, while anything that anyone else says that doesn't agree with their sacred pronouncements is ignorant, stupid, immature and/ or asinine, to name a few.
--None of this has ANYTHING to do with someone disagreeing with me. As I said above, and have demonstrated here, I am capable of civil debate with respectful discourse. I am far from being thin-skinned. If I were, I'd have abandoned this. I have been responding to personal insults that YOU have aimed at me. And you are still doing it. It is not my low self-esteem or moral superiority or intellectual arrogance that prompted you to insult me. It is your mean-spirited, small-minded personality.


Oh well, there's a special corner of Hell reserved for those who try to clarify things. I should have known better.
--well, enjoy it when you get there. Dick.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Ebbie
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 02:36 PM

Lepus Rex, I tend to think of Polanski as an unsavory character but it should be noted that he was convicted of statutory rape, the seduction of a 13-year old girl. Saying 'rape' has a different connotation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: GUEST,amergin
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 02:44 PM

ok...he should have been castrtated for child molestation then...nothing less.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 03:02 PM

Well, Ebbie, he drugged and had forcible anal sex with a 13-year-old child. Whatever he was convicted of, I'd call him a rapist. Here's some documents I doubt youll enjoy, but are informative...

But this is off topic, so that's enough on the subject from me. :)

---Lepus Rex


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 05:46 PM

Twenty-six years ago and the victim has spoken out that it should not figure in whether he received an Oscar or not. Presumably he's never done anything of the kind since. One also wonders where her parents were and also what kind of psychological damage he might have still been suffering from in relation to the brutal murder of his wife, Sharon Tate, and their unborn baby a few years prior to that. Not that that excuses what he did.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 08:17 PM

Kat, read the transcript of the girl's testimony, which I linked above... Polanski made her call her mother, to tell her she would be home late. And I imagine that the only reason he hasn't been convicted of child rape in France is that the age of consent there is 15...

But what does the fact that it was 26 years ago, or that his wife was murdered, have to do with Polanski being a criminal paedophile? I mean, I didn't go out cruising for underage pussy when my cat died. The scumbag belongs in jail, preferably sharing a cell with a large, violent man who likes to rape Polaks. :)

Oops. I love Michael Moore, dammit. Michael Moore.

---Lepus Rex


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 10:09 PM

Well, I read the first page of your link, didn't go read the whole testimony. Still, wonder why her mother wasn't with her? I don't have the time or energy to read the whole thing.

All I was saying was the way Sharon Tate was murdered and all that came out of that must've had some effect, most of it negative I am sure, on him and that might explain some of his behaviour. I did not say it would excuse it, in any way.

Also, we have a tradition that says a person is free once they've gone through certain legal steps. I don't know if he served any time, but it seems to me, IF he was put through the due process of law AND paid for his crime in whatever way the courts decided, then we have to accept that. It was a long time ago, and as I said, presumably he has not done anything criminal since then.

It's not a perfect system, but I cannot see that any of the dire things you or amergin suggest should be done to him.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Sam L
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 11:48 PM

Well, as a grown man who happens to like kids, I think pedophiles do more than harm their particular victim, who may well get out of it all right, sometimes, I don't know, but they create the horrible horrible sad awful terrible distrust and apprehension with friends and neighbors which makes childhood a worse deal even than it used to be. I'm terribly conflicted in that I'd like to extend to my kids the trust and independence that they deserve, but you know, I just can't. I have to explain to them that I just don't trust people. It fucking sucks. Just to be a kid and run around the neighborhood--remember that? I don't think Polanski was ever held accountable for his actions, I don't know what the age of drugged consent is in France, these days, and though I don't think I sentimentalize sex crimes as in in some t.v. melodrama movie of the week-- the horror! worse-than-death, tearjerk way, I think taking advantage of kids in any and every way does harm to society in general more than we can begin to fathom.
    He's a stupid fuck and I never liked his crap-ass sensational-pretentious man-who-reads-playboy kind of bullshit movies anyway.

   But I like Michael Moore.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: DougR
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 01:34 AM

Take the time to read the whole testimony, kat. Then revisit your conversation with Lepus.

I don't wonder that the man is afraid to come to the U. S. even after all these years.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 01:42 AM

I did read the whole thing- although I had not, in years past. As I said, a seamy character.

But I agree with kat. From what the kid relays about her mother's responses and from her own testimony, I don't get the feeling that this was a kid who got a whole lot of guidance in her life.

It says there, by the way, that the reason that Polanski fled the US is that he began to suspect that the Judge was thinking of reneging on the deal they had struck.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Sam L
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 03:29 PM

So it's somehow the mother's fault, or the kid's fault? I don't get it. I don't think it's ever all about the particular victim. The question is entirely Polanski's guidance of his own actions, and his responsibility for them.

It's especially awful for girls, because just when they're getting old enough to go around on their own, it's starts to be an even more worrisome idea. Childhood becomes more and more an existential formaldehyde. "Preparing them for life".

   Kids running around the neighborhood with their friends. People have to pay for attacking that kingdom. Pay a lot, because it's worth a lot. I envy the free-range of kids about whose parents one might well ask, Where are they? When things go bad, where were the parents? Yes, but a measure of independence and trust is a great thing to be able to grant a child who deserves it. If you can stand it. Comes a point where giving them guidance all the time is cheating them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 04:49 PM

I wanted to stay out of this because it means disagreeing with friends, and who gives a shit what ANY of us think anyway?

But.....I started it, so I don't think I have the right 'stickhandle' around an issue that calls my avowed hatred of "ideologies" into play.

Polanski has made friggin' BRILLIANT movies for many years. They're marvellously filmed and acted....and apparently actors really wanna work with HIM as much as they do Woody Allen (another former hero).

But I don't think you fuck little girls simply because you can. You don't do it because you're a famous and powerful director. You don't do it because you have the persuasive powers of a great director, and even if the little girl dresses provocatively, smokes your dope, swims in your pool, and then seduces you......you are still a paedophile.

In many countries where puberty means the start of child bearing, or marriage, the rules are different. But the rules in Canada and the US are very clear....sometimes even major celebrities get caught.

PS. I think Adrien Brody's behaviour was atrocious (and probably the result of nervousness). I think Halle's response was brilliant, and saved it from becoming a verrry embarrasing incident. The 'wiping of the mouth" (while the camera was on her) told me a lot. The big smile on her face, as they left the stage, was NOT convincing to me.

Cheers

Rick


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 04:57 PM

Okay. Polanski pleaded guilty to having sex with a minor, so he was guilty of a felony. According to the report I read, he fled to France to avoid sentencing. THAT is a bunch of bullshit and I do NOT condone that!

Here is what his victim had to say in the LATimes, before the Oscars:

"I don't really have any hard feelings toward him, or any sympathy, either," wrote Samantha Geimer. "But I believe that Mr. Polanski and his film should be honored according to the quality of the work. What he does for a living and how good he is at it have nothing to do with me or what he did to me."

I have read all of the testimony available at the website for which there was provided a link. I still say what the fuck was the mother doing? NO, I do NOT blame the victim and YES, he is guilty, obviously, BUT the mother surely has something to answer to, too. The girl admitted having had sex and qualuudes before, having found the drugs presumably at her own home?! AND, the mother let her daughter go off with Polanski with no chaperone or checking into what kind of pix he wanted to take, etc?! Excuse me? At 13 years old??!!

He should not have left the country. He should have accepted whatever the sentencing was going to be, but after 26 years and, considering the comments of the girl, I still do NOT agree that he needs to be incarcerated with a bunch of gang-bangers or any of the other dire things which have been called for in this thread.

kat


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 05:05 PM

I'm not implying that the victim 'brought it on herself'. I do say that it was evidently a different world that the kid lived in than that of 'the girl next door'. She had previously taken quaaludes and had previously had sex ("twice". Right).

So I'll stick to my theory that there was a disconnect between the child and her parent.

After I read the court transcripts, I sat here analyizing my response if that had happened to my daughter. (I know a little of my projected reaction because after an elderly man rather mildly molested my daughter and another little girl, I picked up a tree branch and whipped him all the way home where his equally elderly wife was waiting at the door. If he had died, I would not have cared.)

I believe I would have gone ballistic if this had happened to my thirteen year old daughter. I believe I would have had Polanski arrested. I believe I would have ruined his reputation and run him out of town if I were able. I also believe that I would have grieved my neglectful parenting.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 05:47 PM

Thanks, kat. I agree with you fully. I sat here so long over that post that I crossposted with you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Sam L
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 06:21 PM

I still don't see what the girl's comments have to do with it. We generally don't have victims decide sentencing. It's beside the point whether she brought it on herself or not. A thirteen year old kid might well look for something like that to happen, or some different sort of trouble entirely. He should serve the sentence, still.

The mother--well, I'd done sex and drugs at thirteen, where was my mother? Doing the best she could at the time. If I'd been assaulted by an over-rated celebrity I guess it would have reflected very poorly on her, and everyone would appoint themselves to judge her, and me. Not enough for a kid to get assaulted by a sensational phoney, but everyone gets to cast votes about them as people, like it was a parent and child oscars ceremony. Nice.

I've never seen a Polanski film I thought anything of. Maybe I missed something.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 06:51 PM

Thanks, Ebbie. Like you, I know whomever may have tried that with one of my daughters would have been lucky to escape with their life, let alone their nuts!

Fred, there was no sentence. I agree, he should have stayed and "faced the music."

I guess what I am trying to say is it has been a long time, the girl obviously does not care what happens to him anymore, and everyone has moved on, so why keep beating on the subject?

When my girls were that age, we lived in a ritzy area with its share of celeb hideouts, right nex door, almost, to one fo the highest crime rated areas in the state. There were all kinds of things they could have gotten into. You can damn well bet I knew where they were and with whom at all times and they did NOT do drugs nor find any in my home when they were just young'uns.

As I said, whatever the girl says or what her mother did or did not do, does not excuse what Polanski did. I think, though, that if they all can move on, the rest of us ought to be able to, also.

Of course, if it comes out that he has continued such activities, then I'd be all for throwing the book at him. I repeat, though, that I still do NOT think the dire punishments called for in this thread are warranted.

Just curious...in today's paper there is an article about a girl who ran away with her next door neighbour when she was 12 as she was pregnant by him. He was 19, if I remember right. They went to Mexico to his family's home. Her parents thought she was kidnapped and gone forever. She went to a US consulate the other day and said she was a missing person and, at 15, she has two children. She is now back home with her family, from what I can gather.

What do you all think should be done with the neighbour?

Sorry, Rick...I love Michaal Moore, too!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Sam L
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 09:39 PM

Well, yes, Kat, there was no sentence, but the point of saying he should serve the sentence is that there should've been and still should be. Whether the girl has moved on--one would hope! or is dead or disappeared from the earth is quite beside the point. I've already said several times why I can't move on, in that it corrodes our society, apart from the harm, or none, to the kid in question. If you don't see that, you don't. I take it pedophile priests or whomever should be granted this same Ah what the Hey amnesty as long as the kids and everyone whose trust they abused have gone on with their lives.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 11:27 PM

Not at all, Fred.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Sam L
Date: 29 Mar 03 - 02:12 AM

Not at all? Well, I'm not sure what distinction you make. I make one between a crime against an individual and against society in general. If she felt differently, wanted him castrated, would it still be up to her in your view? Would it be different if Polanski were a mechanic? I'm reduced to guessing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Mar 03 - 10:25 AM

Fred, I have said what I feel, several times. What don't you understand? He should have stayed to sentenced. He should have done time. I do not believe he should be brutalised in the ways some have called for in this thread. That has been my main point all along. Period. That's it. We disagree.

Back to the subject of the thread, Michael Moore had this to say when defending his Oscar speech:

Moore agrees that the Oscars is not normally a place for political commentary.
    "And if I had won the Oscar for a movie about birds or insects, I'd say something about them. But I made a movie about violence -- and global violence -- so I felt I had to say something about that. I just hope I generated a discussion about Mr. Bush and the war."


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Sam L
Date: 29 Mar 03 - 06:36 PM

I understand he should've stayed to be sentenced, understand he should've done time, and I think I've made it clear that what I don't understand is why anyone should forget about it, or why we should drag aspersions and characterizations of the victim and her mother into it, when they are not the adult criminal. That's all.

I understand the frustration and outrage behind hyperbolic remarks on this thread, including those of Michael Moore, which do not really make practical sense, but are genuinely expressive of those feelings. And I think he's right--when Holly Hunter went on about playing the piano, and her piano teacher, and blah blah, as if she was at a piano recital, it was because she was in a movie about a piano. When Tom Hanks talked about issues affecting gays, and how those issues lent power and resonance to his performance in Philadelphia, nobody said these political remarks were inappropriate. It's what the movie was about.

I set aside my own opposition to the war when it started, and hoped for the best, hoped it could be short and with minimal civilian casualties, but seeing injured kids and distraught families on the news, it seems to be more and more the awful mistake it was bound to become. I tried not to let my general distrust of Bush make me utterly cynical about everything he touches, but he makes it very difficult.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 07:45 PM

Fred, regardless of whether Polanski is a Bad Guy (and obviously he is, at least a little bit) I sometimes wonder whether it is the attitudes of parents that is costing the kids their childhood freedoms.

I suspect you are mistaken in thinking kids are at greater risk from paedophiles than previously. In the UK the rates haven't changed much either way in 50 years. What has changed is that in the developed countries, as we grow ever more spoilt, and often encouraged by disproportionate media frenzies, we have taken up absurd attitudes to risk.

Oh, and I'm glad Michael Moore - anyone - did a Python and "mentioned the war," even if it could have been done more elegantly. When it comes to tearing the tripe out of this administration's hypocrisies, no-one comes close to Noam Chomsky. Pussy-footing round the issue on account of morale in the trenches makes no sense to me. How immoral/illegal would a war have to be before we could stop prentending otherwise for the sake of morale in the field? I suspect that for one or two here, there is no limit.

But like Buffy Sainte Marie said in that classic anti-war song Moratorium: "Fuck the war, and bring our brothers home." I've no doubt that a few marines would say amen to that, and hope that it was before they've had to kill any more Iraqis, Brits, etc.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Sam L
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 01:10 PM

Fionn, I um. Okay. I can see how you might take the implication that I think pedophilia has risen, but I don't have any idea about that. I'm sure the rates of pedophilia you cite aren't a poll of people who checked the pedophile box on a survey. I'd guess they reflect reported and therefore countable assaults or abuses or rapes in that category?

The correlation I was making though was including these things among other stupid derelictions of basic social responsibility, community life. I also would call these things uncertainties rather than risks, a fine distinction, but it means something. I'm quite sure that parental attitudes are most directly what undermine childhood freedoms, and on top of that, childhood responsibilities--one wouldn't be all torn and conflicted if they felt right or good about the limits they sometimes impose. I'm pro-child labor, and if it weren't that you can't trust a capitalist society to have the requisite basic decency, the community culture, we wouldn't have to make that legal restriction either.

Parents are at fault, certainly, for imposing too many restrictions, and also, simultaneously, as we have heard above, for not imposing enough. And I wouldn't even complain that these comments undermine the morale of parents in the trenches, as they say. It's just the nature of the job.

   My point was more that focusing on judging victims opens the door to every sort of social bias, that it's not really nicer to take advantage of a messed-up kid--I'm sure it's probably easier, and people seem more likely to want to forgive you for it. I think it's more of the white-collar bias of our legal ideas, that if a person has the means and resources to openly avoid the law, and it's consequences, we start to want to forgive them. He's ducked it so long, let's forget it. I think that's why corporate scandals get drawn out so tediously, to quell outrage with sheer boredom. Success would seem to counterbalance derelictions of responsponsibilty somehow, with directors, ceo's, whatever. Michael Moore does very well with clearing holes in this fog, the shiny corporate facade of community connectedness.

    It sounds just a little pissy to me if you want to make it out I'm saying Polanski's a baaaad guy. I'm saying he's just like anyone else who made the same mistake, despite the pianist, or pirates, or that awful mcbeth, or that he ran away, or whatever. I may find movies of his I love, but it just doesn't matter.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Kim C
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 01:40 PM

Kiss schmiss. There's bigger fish to fry than some pretty actor-boy's bad manners. But ask yourself this: when was the last time you got a Best Actor Oscar presented to you by a Really Pretty Girl?

Heck, people in Hollywood kiss each other (and more!) all the time in the movies.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Apr 03 - 07:44 PM

An update. Sorry it is so long, but it seems important:

My Oscar "Backlash" - - - - -
resulting in "Stupid White Men" back At #1, "Bowling for Columbine"
breaking new box-office records!!!!
By Michael Moore

April 7, 2003

Dear friends,

It appears that the Bush administration will have succeeded in colonizing Iraq sometime in the next few days. This is a blunder of such magnitude-- and we will pay for it for years to come. It was not worth the life of one single American kid in uniform, let alone the thousands of Iraqis who have died, and my condolences and prayers go out to all of them.

So, where are all those weapons of mass destruction that were the pretense for this war? Ha! There is so much to say about all this, but I will save it for later.

What I am most concerned about right now is that all of you -- the majorityof Americans who did not support this war in the first place -- not go silent or be intimidated by what will be touted as some great military victory. Now, more than ever, the voices of peace and truth must be heard. I have received a lot of mail from people who are feeling a profound sense of despair and believe that their voices have been drowned out by the drums and bombs of false patriotism. Some are afraid of retaliation at work or at school or in their neighborhoods because they have been vocal proponents of peace. They have been told over and over that it is not "appropriate" to
protest once the country is at war, and that your only duty now is to
"support the troops."

Can I share with you what it's been like for me since I used my time on the Oscar stage two weeks ago to speak out against Bush and this war? I hope that, in reading what I'm about to tell you, you'll feel a bit more emboldened to make your voice heard in whatever way or forum that is open to you.

When "Bowling for Columbine" was announced as the Oscar winner for Best Documentary at the Academy Awards, the audience rose to its feet. It was a great moment, one that I will always cherish. They were standing and cheering for a film that says we Americans are a uniquely violent people, using our massive stash of guns to kill each other and to use them against many countries around the world. They were applauding a film that shows George W. Bush using fictitious fears to frighten the public into giving him whatever he wants. And they were honoring a film that states the following:
The first Gulf War was an attempt to reinstall the dictator of Kuwait;
Saddam Hussein was armed with weapons from the United States; and the
American government is responsible for the deaths of a half-million children in Iraq over the past decade through its sanctions and bombing. That was the movie they were cheering, that was the movie they voted for, and so I decided that is what I should acknowledge in my speech.

And, thus, I said the following from the Oscar stage:

"On behalf of our producers Kathleen Glynn and Michael Donovan (from
Canada), I would like to thank the Academy for this award. I have invited the other Documentary nominees on stage with me. They are here in solidarity because we like non-fiction. We like non-fiction because we live in fictitious times. We live in a time where fictitious election results give us a fictitious president. We are now fighting a war for fictitious reasons. Whether it's the fiction of duct tape or the fictitious 'Orange Alerts,' we are against this war, Mr. Bush. Shame on you, Mr. Bush, shame on you. And, whenever you've got the Pope and the Dixie Chicks against you, you're time
is up."

Halfway through my remarks, some in the audience started to cheer. That immediately set off a group of people in the balcony who started to boo. Then those supporting my remarks started to shout down the booers. The L. A. Times reported that the director of the show started screaming at the orchestra "Music! Music!" in order to cut me off, so the band dutifully struck up a tune and my time was up. (For more on why I said what I said, you can read the op-ed I wrote for the L.A. Times, plus other reaction from around the country at my website http://www.michaelmoore.comwww.michaelmoore.com http://www.michaelmoore.com )

The next day -- and in the two weeks since -- the right-wing pundits and radio shock jocks have been calling for my head. So, has all this ruckus hurt me? Have they succeeded in "silencing" me?

Well, take a look at my Oscar "backlash":

-- On the day after I criticized Bush and the war at the Academy Awards, attendance at "Bowling for Columbine" in theaters around the country went up 110% (source: Daily Variety/BoxOfficeMojo.com). The following weekend, the box office gross was up a whopping 73% (Variety). It is now the longest-running consecutive commercial release in America, 26 weeks in a row and still thriving.

The number of theaters showing the film since the Oscars has INCREASED, and it has now bested the previous box office record for a documentary by nearly 300%.

-- Yesterday (April 6), "Stupid White Men" shot back to #1 on the New York Times bestseller list. This is my book's 50th week on the list, 8 of them at number one, and this marks its fourth return to the top position, something that virtually never happens.

-- In the week after the Oscars, my website was getting 10-20 million
hits A DAY (one day we even got more hits than the White House!). The mail has been overwhelmingly positive and supportive (and the hate mail has been hilarious!).

-- In the two days following the Oscars, more people pre-ordered the video for "Bowling for Columbine" on Amazon.com than the video for the Oscar winner for Best Picture, "Chicago".

-- In the past week, I have obtained funding for my next documentary, and I have been offered a slot back on television to do an updated version of "TV Nation"/ "The Awful Truth."

I tell you all of this because I want to counteract a message that is told to us all the time -- that, if you take a chance to speak out politically, you will live to regret it. It will hurt you in some way, usually financially. You could lose your job. Others may not hire you. You will lose friends. And on and on and on.

Take the Dixie Chicks. I'm sure you've all heard by now that, because their lead singer mentioned how she was ashamed that Bush was from her home state of Texas, their record sales have "plummeted" and country stations are boycotting their music. The truth is that their sales are NOT down. This week, after all the attacks, their album is still at #1 on the Billboard country charts and, according to
Entertainment Weekly, on the pop charts during all the brouhaha, they ROSE from #6 to #4. In the New York Times, Frank Rich reports that he tried to find a ticket to ANY of the Dixie Chicks' upcoming concerts but he couldn't because they were all sold out. (To read Rich's column from yesterday's Times, "Bowling for Kennebunkport," go here:
http://www.michaelmoore.com/articles/index.php?article=20030406-nytimeshttp: //www.michallmoore.com/articles/index.php?article=20030406-nytimes

He does a pretty good job of laying it all out and talks about my next
film and the impact it could potentially have.) Their song, "Travelin'
Soldier" (a beautiful anti-war ballad) was the most requested song on the internet last week. They have not been hurt at all -- but that is not what the media would have you believe.
Why is that? Because there is nothing more important now than to keep the voices of dissent -- and those who would dare to ask a question -- SILENT.
And what better way than to try and take a few well-known entertainers down with a pack of lies so that the average Joe or Jane gets the message loud and clear: "Wow, if they would do that to the Dixie Chicks or Michael Moore, what would they do to little ol' me?" In other words, shut the f--- up.

And that, my friends, is the real point of this film that I just got an Oscar for -- how those in charge use FEAR to manipulate the public into doing whatever they are told.

Well, the good news -- if there can be any good news this week -- is that not only have neither I nor others been silenced, we have been joined by millions of Americans who think the same way we do. Don't let the false patriots intimidate you by setting the agenda or the terms of the debate. Don't be defeated by polls that show 70% of the public in favor of the war. Remember that these Americans being polled are the same Americans whose kids (or neighbor's kids) have been sent over to Iraq. They are scared for the troops and they are being cowed into supporting a war they did not want -- and they want even less to see their friends, family, and neighbors come home dead. Everyone supports the troops returning home alive and all of us
need to reach out and let their families know that.

Unfortunately, Bush and Co. are not through yet. This invasion and conquest will encourage them to do it again elsewhere. The real purpose of this war was to say to the rest of the world, "Don't Mess with Texas - If You Got What We Want, We're Coming to Get It!" This is not the time for the majority of us who believe in a peaceful America to be quiet. Make your voices heard. Despite what they
have pulled off, it is still our country.

Yours,

Michael Moore
http://www.michaelmoore.comwww.michaelmoore.com
http://www.michaelmoore.com
http://www.michaelmoore.com/mailing/unsubscribe.phphttp://www.michaelmoore.com


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 16 Apr 03 - 04:16 AM

bravo. Thanks kat.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Sam L
Date: 16 Apr 03 - 10:08 AM

Well, seems about right. I didn't think his remarks would hurt him at all. He still seems to exaggerate for effect, but it seems to work, and I look forward to seeing his movie. I haven't found people who support the war to be so rabidly patriotic about it, or as certain of anything as Moore seems of his view, but I don't get out much.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Troll
Date: 16 Apr 03 - 03:03 PM

He's still an ass and he still doesn't let the facts get in the way of a good (?) story.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 16 Apr 03 - 03:11 PM

For those of you who haven't yet seen "Bowling for Columbine," a small word. It's an excellent film, ranging from sarcastic humor to a truly chilling silent episode that I can't forget. However, he does get one thing wrong:

He states that Canada has seven million guns, and that Canadians don't go around shooting each other. What he gets wrong is that he doesn't distinguish the types of guns Canadians have. For crying out loud, 2/3 of Canada is wilderness -- Canadians have hunting rifles!

But Canadian laws regarding handguns are very strict, and there are not many handgunds there. Transporting a gun in your car in Canada means having the gun in one part of the car (e.g. glove compartment) and the ammunition elsewhere (the trunk). To the best of my knowledge, there are no AK-47 assault rifles or automatic machine guns in private hands either.

It would have made a far stronger point for Moore, IMO, had he made the distinction.

Comments?


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Sam L
Date: 16 Apr 03 - 09:31 PM

Well, for the record I'm a flaming liberal, at least on most social and economic issues. But. I worry about Moore, whose first film I quite liked. Here he seems to put his gains up to validate his convictions, when others are putting up great loss in the hope of some good for others. The market is very seductive. It can play on nearly anyone's vanity. I hope he is holding his bearings, and it's not really for me to judge if he is. But his exhuberant exaggeration--my fear is whether he, like so many stupid white men before him, might be seduced into a vanity of his own import, and deserving, because it succeeds, it sells.

   The Dixie Chicks are fascinatingly bad. You can't look away. (The Pope too, imho.) Not everyone who goes to Moore's movie is signing it, like a petition. It's on a topic that matters to people, and it got some attention. ta da. You can't count on the market to be much smarter than that.

I'm not saying he shouldn't say whatever he wants, he should do his best to do exactly that. And he should think about that. We all should. Being able to do that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: GUEST,MCat Lover
Date: 16 Apr 03 - 09:53 PM

Does anyone know why the release date for "Bowling" on DVD has been indefinitely postponed? It was to have come out this week.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Troll
Date: 16 Apr 03 - 10:53 PM

Moore and Arnett should collaborate on a film. That would be a scream.


troll


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