BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Amos
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 02:13 PM

It would seem to me that if a soldier is representing American values he should celebrate hearing about the open communication of dissenting viewpoints. Is he there for acclaim, after all? Is he there to achieve the impossible goal of unified opinion across a nation? Gimme a break. If I were driving an AAV in Iraq, I would know I was fighting to defend exactly the freedom that Michael Moore exercised last night, and I would be proud of him for upholding the same values I was.

Furthermore, IMHO, if someone is going to take up arms under any circumstances, they really need to be absolutely clear as to why they are doing so, and not be vulnerable to the endless miasma of shifting opinions. Going in to lethal combat based on someone's idea that it's needed, without a clear sense of your own reality on the decision, is pretty risky, if you ask me. I'm not there, and I don't agree that we should have gotten there. But if I were there, it would be balls to the wall and kicking butt to bring down a tyrannical government and get the hell back to my own life, and I sure as hell would not be thrown off because of someone in Hollywood disagreeing with why I should or should not be there.

This may be a lot easier to say from a distance. Of course. But I think it is true.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Peg
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 02:17 PM

I thought Brody was a class act (asked for and got additional speech time and then made some very heartfelt comments). I loved his kissing Halle Berry! And when he went to leave the stage you could see him connecting with her again and she was smiling and seemed okay with it. And I think he'd have done this no matter what woman presented the award...it's just a bit more romantic and picturesque perhaps when the woman is close to his age and a paragon of beauty, in that Hollywood way. The presenter for these actor/actress awards is nearly always the person (actress/actor) who won the year before.

Moore's words seemed somewhat prepared but I am very glad he spoke them. Especially liked hearing "Shame on you Mr. Bush!" in that dogged way he has! Love him or hate him, the man sticks to his convictions and many Americans admire his work on behalf of the working class.

Susan Sarandon was given the obituary tribute segment, no doubt this was intentional because it is known she would be a star who would speak out against the war if given an appropriate opportunity. As it was she walked onstage smiling and flashing a peace sign for several long seconds.

Steve Martin finished up his hosting stint (I thought he was fantastic and in great form) by saying he hoped the troops would make it home safe and said "this is for you." I also thought that was pretty classy.

A great night, one of the better Oscar ceremonies in recent memory.

Rick, I must disagree that actors are on the whole an unintelligent or uneducated lot. I studied acting myself and have met a large number of professional actors over the years and my overwhelming impression is that actors are highly intelligent people. Particularly if they are character actors who must research roles, or method actors who understand the psychology behind a role. Meryl Streep is one of the smartest women in America according to many; she graduated with honors from both Vassar and the Yale School of Drama. Actors who start out studying theatre are encouraged to emphasize textual analysis; not easy for dumb people. I would agree there are some "movie star" types who are a bit bubble-headed; but even a pretty boy like Keanu Reeves is, despite appearances, a fairly intellectual individual, believe it or not. Acting is not easy; it only looks that way. The worse the actor, the more likely their intelligence is fairly low.

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 02:17 PM

Make no mistake, Frank, I have never said they do not represent me. Just that I think we need to credit them with a little more critical thinking skills than has been seen here. I wonder how they will feel if they ever hear some of the really demoralising truths about their so-called commander in chief, et alia? This is old history, but just one of the "old" causes which brought about this sorry, sad state of affairs: On 1 August 1990, the day before Iraq invades Kuwait, the US approves the sale of $695 million worth of advanced data transmission devices.

Sources: Amnesty International annual reports; Human Rights Watch World Report 1990; Third World Guide 93-94.

In the end, actions such as that will have a much greater effect than a few words spoken at the Oscars.

Can you imagine what the Civil War must have been like? ON our own soil, brother against brother? I am sure there was plenty of demoralising rhetoric to overcome then, too. It's just a fact, esp. when we do have freedom of speech.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 02:31 PM

This is a bit more of what Moore said, as reported by MTV:

Moore, who received a standing ovation when he was announced as winner of the best documentary Oscar for "Bowling for Columbine" (click here for a complete list of winners), made the most incendiary speech of the evening. With all of his fellow nominees onstage with him, he said, "We like nonfiction and we live in fictitious times. We live in a time where we have fictitious election results that elect a fictitious president. We live in a time where we have a man sending us to war for fictitious reasons."

Amid both cheers and boos, Moore continued to speak his mind, saying ultimately to President Bush that "anytime you've got the pope and the Dixie Chicks against ya, your time is up."

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 02:38 PM

Peg,

Thread creep: Perhaps because they're older and beyond Hollywood's view of what it takes to be sexy (youth, primarily, because I would argue that Streep and O'Toole still have the second component, good looks), no one was counting when Peter O'Toole gave Meryl Streep THREE kisses, one on each cheek and one on the lips when she gave him his award.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Pseudolus
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 02:41 PM

Kat, Amos et al,
   I agree that all of you have a certain amount of logic on your side. But you're describing what a soldier SHOULD think and be. Maybe they should understand that the freedoms they are fighting for include free speech and some folks are exercising exactly that. I felt that the most logical thing to do was to talk to some folks who have been there and although it's anything BUT a scientific sampling, those few that I have talked to believe that protests like Michael Moore's and the negative media reports about what they are doing are detrimental to the morale of the troops. That doesn't make me right, but it the basis from which I've drawn my opinion. Let's not forget, I never said that he didn't have the right to express his opinion, I just simply disagreed that he should have done it when and where he did. He has the right to talk, I have the right to disagree, right? Now, I did call him a horse's ass but I had that opinion before last night. And in fairness to Mr. Moore, he probably wouldn't like me either.......fair enough.

   And Amos, I would "give you a break" but I never said that "he is there for acclaim" or "He is there to achieve the impossible goal of unified opinion across a nation?" Must have been someone else.....


Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Charley Noble
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 02:52 PM

I'd much rather read these posting than count of network TV to provide me any insight. Thanks!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 03:05 PM

ANTHONY BREZNICAN, AP Entertainment Writer evidently missed the implication of what Steve Martin actually said. He wrote: "It was so sweet backstage, you should have seen it," Martin joked. "The Teamsters were helping Michael Moore into the back of his limo."

In actuality, Steve Martin quipped: "It was so sweet backstage, you should have seen it. The Teamsters were helping Michael Moore into the trunk of his limo."

A lot different, given historical mob connections...

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: DougR
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 04:29 PM

Peg: Interesting. You thought Brody was a "class-act." Someone else on this thread thought he was a groper! Just goes to show how two people can view something and come away with completely divergent opinions.

I agree that it was the best AA show in years.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Amos
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 04:30 PM

Pseudolus:

Well, I'm not sure why he shouldn't have spoken up when and where he did, but of course you're quite entitled to your opinion. In order to get demoralized by comments like Moore's you have to feel dependent on them. Morale comes from winning, does it not? Hence my remarks. In a game as absolute as battle, winning doesn't have much to do with approbation from film makers, after all. It has to do with ducking death and/or delivering it.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Peg
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 04:49 PM

Stilly River:

Make no mistake, *I* was counting!!! A beautiful moment and one of the most memorable of the night (as was Nicole Kidman addressing her mother and daughter in the audience). A very gentlemanly and romantic kiss and clearly given by two people who knew they were equally respected in their profession.

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Peg
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 04:55 PM

Doug:

I think whoever saw Brody's actions as "groping" perhaps did not notice his contact with Miss Berry after he had finished accepted his award. The friendly and pleasant facial expressions and body language between them convinced me that his behavior was not offensive to her, ultimately, despite her looks of surprise at first.
It's Hollywood; outrageous behavior of a romantic or sexual nature is usually encouraged. There is a long tradition of the "sexiest" leading men being gay.
That kiss reminded me of the photograph of the American WW2 soldier grabbing hold of and kissing a nearby nurse on the day the war ended. Acceptable behavior because of the passion of the moment. Brody is young and relatively unknown to receive such an honor. I am sure he wanted to express the joy of that moment in every way he could.

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Blues=Life
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 06:50 PM

Just a few facts.

Judy R says:
'Moore said backstage to the press something like, "I know you guys'll all write about the chorus of boos, but there were about five boos, and the rest were cheers..."'

What MM said:
"Don't report that there was a split decision in the hall because five loud people booed. Those were all my friends and relatives. Hollywood's got such a bad rap for being left-wing Democrats, I thought it would be really cool if a bunch of them booed to show a diversity of opinion."

Peg says:"many Americans admire his work on behalf of the working class."

What Entertainment Weekly reported:
Among those booing Moore's speech were the production's stagehands, one of whom angrily confronted the filmmaker backstage, according to the Times.

A Class Act:
''Chicago'' producer and Best Picture winner Martin Richards said that, though stars like Colin Farrell wore the peace pin, he wasn't interested. ''I have a pin that says peace, and it's in my heart,'' Richards said. ''I wouldn't wear the peace pin because I wouldn't want any soldier to see me wearing it and think it's about him. I made that mistake with Vietnam, and I regret how that may have made the men who fought over there feel. But I do hope there is peace. I do want this war to be over.''

Personally, I find Moore very entertaining. I find Rush entertaining in exactly the same way. They are both so far to one side, that they can not see the possibility for a middle ground. Standing somewhere in the middle, both look pretty out of touch.
Peace,
Blues

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 07:08 PM

Well danged! First of all I will repeat that my thoughts, hopes and prayers are with everyone affected by the Bush administrations to pull the trigger on an avoidable war.

But as for the thoughts of the current service people and what they are thinking, I hope it's not about the government's position that the former Gulf War service folk don't suffer from symptoms that are most likely related to the DU's that were used. There are a lot of folks who are sick who are being told that either they aren't or to just shake it off.

As fir the Vietnam Vets, Larry said it best. Who ever it is that fells compelled to spread "The Lie" just ain't in touch with the vast majority of us who worked as peace activists during the Vietnam War. Our brothers were the vets. But Boss Hog likes to keep people divided because it keeps the focus off the real crooks!

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 07:20 PM

Here I go having to explain myself again. Ha!
When I said who gives a fuck who likes it, I was thinking and talking for M. Moore.(I know, I should know better around here to speak for other people)You see, he gets up on stage and says what he thinks about things and didn't care about the outcome or what others would think about the outcome. That was my take on the whole thing, just like others who speak out on what they believe, including myself. I realize some things I say, will and could be offensive to others, but I will still speak my opinion and if you don't like it you can disagree but, I have still spoke my opinion wheather you like it or not. So I guess as I write this, I'm thinking why should I explain myself. You all speak your opinions (Troll and TIA) regardless of others thoughts toward the outcome. If you don't I stand corrected.
TIA, comparing me to the Bush admin., you obviously don't give a fuck what I think either.
Troll, I guess I could have just made this answer shorter by telling you I just don't get hung up on what people think of me.
Peace. Rustic

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 07:33 PM

Hmmmmm. RR, I musta missed somethin' here. I don't think of troll-ster and TIA as being on the same side of any issue other than breathing.

Like I said, I musta missed somethin'.

But I gotta agree with you about Mike's statements. Hey, for him to have done anything but what he did would have been like not dancing with the gal you took to the dance?

And, folks gotta just noe give in or give up in the face of a lot of pressure to "just get along". Look where that has gotten us? A fake president and a real war!

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: SINSULL
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 08:29 PM

Interesting note: This was the least watched of all the televised Academy Awards. Apparently America had other things on its mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 08:44 PM

Well, it's tough competing with basketball and with all the will-they-cancel-the-awards-or-won't-they talk the message was clear that the awards were only, at best, borderline *American*. You know, with Hollywood taking a few sorties itself by this current administration, oh, so mild, but sorties none the less.

Bush has played his daddy's class-warfare to the tee. And Hollywood knows that it's gonna take a 9-11 of their own to get back on good footing. So right now, they loose.

Remind anyone of another time in America's history?

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Melani
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 09:55 PM

I had faith in Michael Moore, and he did not disappoint. Go, Michael! Keep it up!

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: GUEST,Bo in KY
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 11:37 PM

Two words: self-promotion. I doubt that Mr. Moore is all that concerned with the "truth" or "speaking his mind". He did not give a principled, reasoned argument against the war. He gave a few sound bites guarunteed to result in increased ticket sales to his movie. Isn't that what movie-making is all about? For all the talk of movies as some transcendent medium of conveying conviction and truth, they are still a commercial medium, bottom line. That is ultimately what is behind the Academy Awards - promotion. Why bother with the subtlety and ambiguity of issues of war when there's money to be made with an emotional tirade? "Shame on you, Mr, Bush! Shame! Shame!" he sounded like a lady at church I know, or my mother...

His "speech", if I didn't know the context, sounded like Mr. Moore was anti-Bush more so than anti-war. In fact, Moore is cynical enough that I would guess he is not principally anti-war, just anti-war-if-it's-pursued-by-a-Republican-president.

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Troll
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 11:49 PM

If anyone is interested, go to www.drudgereport and read what Time Magazine has to say about Moores speech. It's an interesting analysis.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 11:54 PM

You have a wise mother, Bo in ky...

Hey, given the time constraints anf the forum, Mike took what was available, Nothing less...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: DougR
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 12:51 AM

Rustic Rebel: I would think that would be apparant to anyone who reads your posts. Nice of you to clarify it though.

Peg: I agree with you on this one. I saw nothing untoward in what Brody did. The Pianist was a helluva movie I thought. I'm glad he won.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Peg
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 12:57 AM

Blues wrote:

Peg says:"many Americans admire his work on behalf of the working class."

What Entertainment Weekly reported:
Among those booing Moore's speech were the production's stagehands, one of whom angrily confronted the filmmaker backstage, according to the Times.

Sorry to break these "facts" to ya, but "stagehands" working gigs like this make union scale wages and have pretty decent working conditions and all sorts of job security from their strong union affiliations. Moore speaks out for the working class who lose their jobs because of layoffs and downsizing due to corporate greed and efforts to maximize profits (and create huge CEO salaries) at the expense of workers. These conditions do not tend to affect the entertainment industry's union-scale workers in the same way.

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Blackcatter
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 01:52 AM

Peg said: I am sure he wanted to express the joy of that moment in every way he could.

I guess I should be thankful that all he chose to do was plant a long kiss on Halle. Seems you might have granted him even more.

I was the person who first mentioned that I thought his action was unfortunate. I did see him being nice to her as they walked off stage. I also saw him in the interview room bragging about it and saying something to the effect that you have the take the chance if you get it. Sounds like a man taking advantage of a woman to me. Where I come from, a kiss like that implies a great deal of familiarity between the two. Maybe they have that, I certainly don't know, but I still though it to be demeaning.

Yes the rules are different in Hollywood. And, of course, Halle probably didn't mind it, but it probably happens all the time to her. Women who are repeatedly beaten by their husbands get used to it as well (not to imply that the kiss was anywhere near the same level as spouse abuse).

Hell, you know what, I was going to write more, but screw it. The statements above which disagree with mine imply that I didn't really understand it all - I'm sick and tired of people assuming that just because I (or anyone) disagrees with them, they must not have the full understanding. True that can happen, but having a difference of opinion can come from much more that the basic facts of a situation.

It is insulting to imply that those people who disagree with you are simply ignorant or misinformed.

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Troll
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 02:12 AM

Blackcatter, It's called Argumentum ad Hominem. Discredit the man and you discredit his argument. It's a common enough ploy and you really shouldn't be surprised to find it used on you.
It saves the accuser the drudgery of actually having to think about refuting any points you may have made.
It's so much easier to dismiss you as an ignorant nitwit who doesn't read the right newspapers or whatever.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Blackcatter
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 03:16 AM

Hey Troll,

I'm not surprised. Just needed a reminder why I don't argue politics around here.

I'll go back to laughing at the people who take it all too seriously. That even occasionally gives me a chance to laugh at myself.

"all my life's a circle, sunrise and sundown . . ."

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 07:34 AM

Another version of ad hominem that has been seen around here: anyone who makes a statement I disagree with is only doing it for the money. Anyone who has ever been paid for writing a book, making a movie, making a speech, singing a song, serving in a political office -- can be discredited simply by pointing out that they were paid, or are hoping to be paid. Except the people I agree with, of course--they're doing it out of the highest principle.

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: TIA
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 08:01 AM

Rustic Rebel - slow down there. I believe you misunderstood my point. I was actually taking a swipe at the folks who were bangin on you and Michael Moore. Paraphrased, the exchange went sumpin like this:

Rustic Rebel ends a post with "who gives a fuck if you don't like it."

Troll replies "if that's the way you feel, what does that say about you?"

TIA says "it means your perfect for implementing the Bush foreign policy" (which has made a habit of telling other countries to fuck off if they don't like it).

I've been accused of being oblique, perhaps I was again.

Bobert - having been informed that Troll breathes, I have begun holding my breath. Wonder how long I can hold oudkrmlsporljglkhg...

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Peg
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 10:01 AM

Blackcatter wrote:

Peg said: I am sure he wanted to express the joy of that moment in every way he could.

I guess I should be thankfull that all he chose to do was plant a long kiss on Halle. Seems you might have granted him even more.
--why do you say that? No need for you to speculate onmy behalf; it "seems" you are doing so to make yourself feel justified in this.


I was the person who first mentioned that I thought his action was unfortunate. I did see him being nice to her as they walked off stage.
--and she was being nice to him.

I also saw him in the interview room bragging about it and saying something to the effect that you have the take the chance if you get it.
--in what way was he "bragging?" That is YOUR word. What did he say, exactly, to justify this criticism?

Sounds like a man taking advantage of a woman to me. Where I come from, a kiss like that implys a great deal of familiarity between the two. Maybe they have that, I certainly don't know, but I still though it to be demeaning.
--they're ACTORS. Actors engage in love scenes constantly, often with never having met the other person before they start shooting the scene! THEY both knew it was part of the whole performance atmosphere.


Yes the rules are different in Hollywood. And, of course, Halle probably didn't mind it, but it probably happens all the time to her. Women who are repeatedly beaten by their husbands get used to it as well (not to imply that the kiss was anywhere near the same level as spose abuse).
--then why did you make that dumb comparison???


Hell, you know what, I was going to write more, but screw it. The statements above which disagree with mine imply that I didn't really understand it all - I'm sick and tired of people assuming that just because I (or anyone) disagrees with them, they must not have the full understanding.
--I did NOT say you didn't understand, but that perhaps you did not SEE as much of their exchange as I did.
But after reading the rest of yoru comments, I think you really do not understand the social subtleties and implications of the situation...you want to see this as abuse of women. I just don't see it that way.


True that can happen, but having a difference of opinion can come from much more that the basic facts of a situation.
--true enough. But you are making some big leaps in logic, e.g. comparing a kiss to phsyical abuse???

It is insulting to imply that those people who disagree with you are simply ignorant or misinformed.
--I never did that, only suggested you did not have all the information available from watching. But now it sounds like you did see it and still come to the conclusion that Ms. Berry was taken advantage of. I think you're making a big deal out of something which occurs quite naturally in the Hollywood environment.

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Peg
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 10:05 AM

Troll wrote:

Blackcatter, It's called Argumentum ad Hominem. Discredit the man and you discredit his argument. It's a common enough ploy and you really shouldn't be surprised to find it used on you.
--I did not discredit anyone. I suggested the person was not working from the same information. Quit trying to stir up trouble.


It saves the accuser the drudgery of actually having to think about refuting any points you may have made.
--But I have now refuted all of them. I notice you aren't dealing with any facts here, just trying to start a fight. Grow up.


It's so much easier to dismiss you as an ignorant nitwit who doesn't read the right newspapers or whatever.
--no newspapers were mentioned. This was about what was seen on television. I did not use the words "ignorant nitwit" in my original post and I resent the implication that that is anything like what I meant. Quit your asinine troll behavior, please.

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: InOBU
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 10:35 AM

FOLKIES! Take a deep breath for a moment... look I have met Peg and troll, and frankly, I can tell ya both, you'd like each other... so lets keep it friendly, a little humor is fine, but lets keep it lovingly respectful? Hokay!?
Be nice
Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Blackcatter
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 11:25 AM

Oh come on Peg - you say the rules in Hollywood are different and you imply your acceptance of that. Just tell me how far you are willing to let people go? You're the one who said "I am sure he wanted to express the joy of that moment in every way he could." All I was asking is just how far do you think he could have gone before you thought he was going to far? It's a simple question. One you didn't answer.

Do you think that groping her would have been fine? Or was the kiss "just right?"

Would it have been ok for him to pat her ass like in the NFL?

Would it have been alright if he had kissed a 15 year old actress - certainly that happens on screen sometimes so it must be alright in Hollywood.

Of course, rape, murder, & incest all happen on screen as well, are those acceptible behaviors for Hollywoodians to do on stage (since you seem to imply little distinction between acting and real life. Or is winning an Oscar just another acting opportunity?

"I did NOT say you didn't understand, but that perhaps you did not SEE as much of their exchange as I did. But after reading the rest of yoru comments, I think you really do not understand the social subtleties and implications of the situation"

You're right, you didn't say that I didn't understand - until your latest post. Don't you hate it when Troll is right? You disagree with me, so of couse I must not understand.

Oh and by the way - exactly how are you an expert on what is proper and improper in "Hollywood"?

please.

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Tam the bam fraeSaltcoatsScotland
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 01:29 PM

I just got the a wee bit of his speech, and I thought that it was great.

Freedom of Speech, is that not what living in America is about.

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: winniemih
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 01:43 PM

I didn't see the awards presentations, and really appreciate hearing all your comments on what went on. I am so glad that Michael Moore voiced his thoughts ( but indeed who could have stopped him), for he gave voice to what many of us are thinking.   
    I just returned from 3 months in Costa Rica, and I know from polls there that the vast majority of Costa Rican people do not support this invasion/war, even though they remain friendly to Americans. They seem to be able to separate the American people from the government. What I read in the press while there correlated with Stilly River Sage's comments about it being "painfully obvious who is benefitting from this war". And then on my return, when I read in our local newspaper, the Oregonian (hardly a radical publication ) about Bush's proposed tax cuts for the very wealthy; $440 BILLION !!!!!!!! over the next few years, and also on top of that another $2 TRILLION !!!!!!! over the next decade for the top 1% of American taxpayers ( I am not making up these figures, I have the column right in front of me), it illuminates the whole picture even more.
    I like to refer to this war not by the administration's name Operation Iraqi Freedom, but by the more appropriate "Operation Iraqi Liberation", or O.I.L., ( a title which I'm sure the administration was careful to stay clear of).                                 

Winnie

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: DougR
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 03:09 PM

Saltcoats: no one has said, or implied, he didn't have the right to say what he did. One or two ...well, okay, maybe just one of us thought it was not in good taste to use a ceremony like that to express his view.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: GUEST,Mars
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 03:53 PM

I'm sure the families of the POWs were thrilled to find out that their loved ones were only in a fictitious situation. Personally I'm relieved to know that none of the images I'm seeing on the TV aren't real. But gosh, they're doing a really good job, huh? Maybe the news media should get the Oscar next year for Best Drama?

If all these Hollywood people really wanted to make a difference, they'd go over to Iraq and make a human chain around Baghdad. But I don't see them doing that, do you?

Talking doesn't take that much guts. DOING does.

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: InOBU
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 04:28 PM

Gee mars... frankly I don't think the POWs care much why they are there at present, I belive they are living in hopes of coming home, and I join them in that.
Cheers
Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Marion
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 05:00 PM

I saw a clip on the news of Brody kissing Halle Berry, and I agree with Blackcatter that it was very rude. Even if she really didn't mind, he didn't know that ahead of time.

Hypothetical question - if Halle had slapped him or looked angry or in any other way asserted her right to decide who kisses her, who would come off worse in public opinion? Him for touching her without consent, or her for not being a good sport about it?

Marion

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: GUEST,Mars
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 05:37 PM

I want them to come home too, Larry. But I think it was an insult to them for Moore to insinuate that the situation is "fictitious." He probably would not think so if he had a gun pointing in his face.

This isn't Saving Private Ryan here, friends. This is the real thing, and as a famous General once said, it is all hell.

Since there isn't a relationship between Brody and Berry, the kiss is technically fictitious as well, and so must be all right.

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: DougR
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 05:41 PM

Correction: maybe there are two or three that thought it inappropriate. :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 06:06 PM

Back to the original question, Moore's wording at the Oscars: Mars, you can play with words--if "fictitious" wasn't the best word selection, how about "fraudulent?" As in "the U.S. has gone to war for fraudulent reasons as presented by the Resident of the U.S." Regardless of the wording, Bush has put U.S. troops in harms way for a piss-poor reason.

Perhaps we should just cut to the chase: If Bush will call an end to this war, we'll stop taxing the income of the top 1% earners in the U.S. so he can stop using corporations and political clout to pull all of these combative strings to get richer and richer. (Robbing Peter to pay Paul--if you can't get it from the tax rolls, get it from the "rebuild Iraq" budget). We'll just let the rest of the population pay their regular taxes instead of this fraud that allows everyone to experience tax "cuts" when in fact it's simply sleight of hand to keep the rich from paying any taxes. This is all a classic case of "Wag the Dog." And its a colossal insult to the world that he's getting away with it.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Sam L
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 07:20 PM

I'm sorry to have missed the oscars, it always restores my lack of faith in humankind, and now I may tend to be dangerously optimistic.

   I'm finding myself in a curious middle position lately. I don't mind Moore's comments in the least, don't find them in any way inappropriate, and yet I don't think he strained his reserve of courage in making them, either.

   But they're hyperbolic, and I'm not in the mood. There are better, more sensible comments posted here, above, from many people. The power of Moore's work isn't in his clever little sound-bytes.

I'm not sure the election results were fiction--unusual, okay, not what I wanted, sure. I'm not sure how Bush is a fictional President--meaning he is a puppet? or because he lacked the popular vote? Or both? Or What? Because he isn't as bright or experienced or credible as a chief exec ought to be? All right, I'm okay with that. He instills deep worry--I'm fatigued with it--generally acts as though he were elected with a firm mandate--that's a fiction.

As I read the quote above Moore didn't say it was a fictional war, but that the reasons for it were fiction. Well I think it's very mixed and doubt anyone has all the motives, even their own, all neatly inventoried. That's a Rush Limbaugh kind of thing, impuning dark motives, even to positive results that he can't dismiss, and I'm willing to grant that the better, nobler motives are mixed in there a little too. Liberals don't own them. Everyone seems better informed, and better able to predict the future, than I. I hope it turns out better than the Best Picture award usually does.

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 08:07 PM

Well done, Michael. I am reminded of Marlene Dietrich and others like her who had the courage to speak out against the Nazis when most of their peers remained silent and complicit.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Blackcatter
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 08:20 PM

Thanks Marion

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Blues=Life
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 06:53 AM

Peg writes:

"..."stagehands" working gigs like this make union scale wages and have pretty decent working conditions and all sorts of job security from their strong union affiliations.

Moore speaks out for the working class who lose their jobs because of layoffs and downsizing due to corporate greed and efforts to maximize profits (and create huge CEO salaries) at the expense of workers.

These conditions do not tend to affect the entertainment industry's union-scale workers in the same way."




Oh.

I see.

Thanks Peg. I didn't understand. I always thought the term "Working Class" included union workers. And people who work. It's the unemployed worker who USED to work who makes up the working class.

Got it.
Thanks.

Blues

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Peg
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 10:44 AM

Blackcatter wrote:

Oh come on Peg - you say the rules in Hollywood are different and you imply your acceptance of that. Just tell me how far you are willing to let people go? You're the one who said "I am sure he wanted to express the joy of that moment in every way he could." All I was asking is just how far do you think he could have gone before you thought he was going to far? It's a simple question. One you didn't answer.
--You did NOT ask that, not in those words.
And I think the question is an impertinent one. He did what he did and I think speculating further is something not worth doing in ths case.


Do you think that groping her would have been fine? Or was the kiss "just right?"
--Like I said the kiss was lovely. You seem to be projecting your idea of "groping"--perhaps that's what YOU would have done? Kissing and groping, on television and off, are two very different things.





Would it have been ok for him to pat her ass like in the NFL?
--see, now you're just being ridiculous.


Would it have been alright if he had kissed a 15 year old actress - certainly that happens on screen sometimes so it must be alright in Hollywood.
--yeah, why not?


Of course, rape, murder, & incest all happen on screen as well, are those acceptible behaviors for Hollywoodians to do on stage (since you seem to imply little distinction between acting and real life. Or is winning an Oscar just another acting opportunity?
-again, you're being ridiculous. I feel sorry for you if this is the sort of crap on your mind.
And when did I suggest acting and real life were the same? Stop putting words in my mouth.



"I did NOT say you didn't understand, but that perhaps you did not SEE as much of their exchange as I did. But after reading the rest of yoru comments, I think you really do not understand the social subtleties and implications of the situation"

You're right, you didn't say that I didn't understand - until your latest post. Don't you hate it when Troll is right? You disagree with me, so of couse I must not understand.
--no, you do not understand because you apparently have a very skewed view of the world...



Oh and by the way - exactly how are you an expert on what is proper and improper in "Hollywood"?

please.
--well, I work as a film critic and have met and interviewed a number of Hollywood actors and filmmakers....had a lovely conversation with Genevieve Bujold just the other night in fact, and she complimented my singing...so, I do probably have more familiarity with this social milieu than YOU do.

Blues wrote:

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Blues=Life - PM
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 06:53 AM

Peg writes:

"..."stagehands" working gigs like this make union scale wages and have pretty decent working conditions and all sorts of job security from their strong union affiliations.

Moore speaks out for the working class who lose their jobs because of layoffs and downsizing due to corporate greed and efforts to maximize profits (and create huge CEO salaries) at the expense of workers.

These conditions do not tend to affect the entertainment industry's union-scale workers in the same way."




Oh.

I see.

Thanks Peg. I didn't understand. I always thought the term "Working Class" included union workers. And people who work. It's the unemployed worker who USED to work who makes up the working class.
--when did I say that?
My point was that the emphasis of Moore's films is often upon disenfranchised workers (including union workers, as with Roger and Me)--and that union workers in Hollywood and New York (theatre and film) are among those with the best job security and working conditions, so "working class" is not a term that means quite the same thing as it does for workers with more tenuous job security or poorer working conditions. Sorry I did not make that more clear. You seemed to think a Hollywood stagehand at the Oscars was a good example of a "working class" employee and I wanted to point out that such a worker was treated far better by his/her union than most.
And I know this because I have worked alongside these people quite a lot over the years.


Got it.
Thanks.

Blues
--through being sarcastic for now?

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: GUEST,Mars
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 10:49 AM

I guess Michael Moore doesn't make any money at all from his filmmaking ventures? He's standing up for the working class? That's just about as logical as --- what's his name, John Edwards? ---- the guy who wants to run for President who's a millionaire lawyer who "stands up for the working class." Right, and I've been to the moon.

Let's get something straight here. Presidents don't get elected in the US by the popular vote. They get elected by the Electoral College, which is laid out pretty plain in the Constitution.

George W. Bush wasn't the first President to land in the office this way. I believe there was a similar situation early in US history - with John Adams, perhaps? I don't remember. I will have to go look it up. But the 2000 election was not unprecedented.

Conveniently all of you have forgotten that Bill Clinton didn't have the "popular" vote, either. Less than 50% of the people who voted elected him.

As far as the war being fraudulent, did any of you see the press conference this morning? The General said that some of the missiles fired by Iraqi troops were missiles they said they didn't have.

People, put your emotions away for a little while and take a look at the facts. Throw away everyone else's opinions but your own, and examine your own thoughts very carefully. There are too many of you here just jumping on the bandwagon without giving it any real consideration.

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 11:21 AM

Naw, Mars, you just want people to jump on YOUR bandwagon. Weighing opinions is something we do very well here. Including weighing yours. We all understand perfectly well about that electoral college. That's why the big fight in Florida, after all.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Thank you, Thank you, Michael Moore!
From: Sam L
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 11:23 AM

Mars, yes, as I said, Moore's remarks were hyperbole. I think people know that, but his remarks express their feelings and frustration. I look forward to seeing his film.

I'm sure Moore makes some money from his films, even his first, which I believe he mortgaged his house to make, and which is a great, sad film. I think Bush makes some money being president, and 40g from his own tax cut. I'm paying a portion of his gain, it seems. And I think even soldiers fighting in the cause of liberation, they make money too. That someone makes money doing something doesn't necesarily alter it.

   Moore does speak eloquently for the working class, in his work, and Bush is really the president, but he is not one of the best, conservative or liberal. I blame Gore, for wasting his campain on trying to prove what was self-evident--that he was better qualified. That was really very dumb. It's a junior lawyer's mistake, because when you try to prove what's obvious, you introduce doubt, and bore people out of their minds in the bargain.