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Subject: RE: Origins: Spencer the Rover From: Steve Gardham Date: 18 Jul 21 - 11:26 AM Hi Dick Glee songs don't normally carry a story. They are more often than not just flowery descriptive pieces or catalogue songs like The Derby Ram. Even Dame Durden has very little substance. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Spencer the Rover From: GUEST Date: 18 Jul 21 - 09:49 AM I use a different chord sequence. Try it and see if you like it: F Am Gm7 C Dm Am Bb C Am Gm Bb C7 Dm Am Bb/A/G F Tradsinger |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Spencer the Rover From: The Sandman Date: 18 Jul 21 - 07:09 AM so far we have established it was early 19 th century. would it have been a glee song similiar to thousands or more? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Spencer the Rover From: GUEST,B.B. Cone Date: 10 Jul 12 - 02:52 PM I have to admit that I thought it was wonderfully far fetched but it was a very enjoyable paper to hear and read at the time. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Spencer the Rover From: Steve Gardham Date: 10 Jul 12 - 01:16 PM I've just re-read Simon's paper as published in 'Folk Song, Tradition, Revival and Re-Creation' (My own paper follows it immediately in the book). As Simon admits there is no real evidence at all to back up his fanciful hypothesis. It is mainly based around the tune being similar to the Catalan tune. He states that the Spencer tune has no British relatives, which I dispute. To me it is closely related to 'All round my hat' 'Green Willow' and 'Spanish Ladies' is a minor variant of it. The Irish connection is probably the weakest point. It is solely based on the occasional internal rhyme as asserted in the Journals by Annie Gilchrist, but internal rhyme was very common in theatrical songs of that period, and exists in all areas of song. It is simply overdone in some Irish songs. There you go, now I'm banned from Ireland as well. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Spencer the Rover From: Steve Gardham Date: 10 Jul 12 - 12:19 PM This is all very well, but without any evidence at all we are all pissing in the dark. Personally it smacks of a typical generic piece of the period rather than being based on a real person or events. The melody/melodies could have been picked up from anywhere. A consistent tune spread throughout the country suggests to me a theatrical origin as does the sentimentality but these are only me pissing in the dark. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Spencer the Rover From: GUEST,B.B. Cone Date: 10 Jul 12 - 05:04 AM Some years ago, Simon Furey, gave a very interesting paper at a Sheffield University conference celebrating the centenary of the Folk Song Society. In he it he argued that Spencer was a real person, probably Irish, who had been a soldier in Wellington's army during the Penisular Wars. The melody of 'Spencer the Rover' is remarkably similar to a Spanish tune that Furey cited in his paper. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Spencer the Rover From: Dennis the Elder Date: 09 Jul 12 - 07:19 PM You have me convinced Steve, however the same 5 verses were printed in "Songs of the Ridings" collected by Mary and Nigel Hudleston. This quoted Arthur Wood of Middlesbrough. The same source is quoted in the New Penguin Book of English Folk Songs, I believe these were collected around 50 or 60 years ago, your references seem much earlier than this. I would agree with your logic about being written outside yorkshire, my own logic would also indicate that the song is based on a real person and real events, otherwise why be so accurate? I notice a note on the front page of the "Songs of the Ridings" (purchased from Ray Padgett), quoting "Special thanks to: Steve Gardham", I also offer my thanks as this publication I find most enthralling. I have also heard Ray sing the 7 verse Rotherham Version as is on the Yorkshire Garland site. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Spencer the Rover From: Steve Gardham Date: 09 Jul 12 - 04:50 PM Dennis, The same 7 verses were printed widely on stall copies from the early 19thc onwards. One of the Leader LPs says Catnach printed it but I haven't seen this. Kendrew of York certainly printed it and he was at it from the first decade, along with Swindells in Manchester, Ford in Chesterfield, Walker in Durham, Croshaw in York, Barr in Leeds, Ross in Newcastle, Jackson in Birmingham, but generally the London printers picked it up later. If I remember rightly they all say 'In Yorkshire near Rotherham' in second verse. My own feeling is that it was written outside of Yorkshire, other wise why mention Yorkshire? If it had been written by someone in Yorkshire surely they'd just write 'It was near to Rotherham he went on his rambles.' I have to add, it's bits of description and sentimentality are very typical of broadside ballads of that period and later. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Spencer the Rover From: Dennis the Elder Date: 09 Jul 12 - 03:05 PM Just obtained the New Penguin Book of English Folk Songs and the version quoted therein is quite different. For example first line of second verse "Through Yorkshires broad valleys oh he travel'd for some years" (No mention of Rotherham) Also there are only 5 verses quoted, no 5th of November verse and no woodbine and ivy verse. Now which version came first??? |
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Subject: Lyr Add: SPENCER THE ROVER From: GUEST,Mr Happy Date: 05 Mar 05 - 09:52 AM Here's a version I heard recently [with internal rhymes] SPENCER THE ROVER This song was composed by Spencer the Rover, Who'd travelled through England and most parts of Wales, There had been much reducing which caused great confusion, And that was the reason he went on the rails In Yorkshire near Rotherham still being on the ramble, Being weary of travelling he sat down to rest, At the foot of the mountain there sprung a clear fountain With pleasant cold water himself did refresh. More sweeter it tasted than the gold he had wasted, More sweeter than honey and gave more content, But the thoughts of his children lamenting their father Brought tears to his eyes and caused him to repent. Now the night fast approaching, to the woods he departed, With woodbine and ivy his bed for to make, He heard the birds sighing, lamenting and crying, Come home to your family and rambling forsake. Oh the fifth of November I've got reasons to remember 'Twas then I first returned to my family and wife, They looked so surpris-ed to see I'd arriv-ed, To see such a stranger once more in their life. Then his children gathered round him with their prittle, prattling stories, With their prittle, prattling stories which to drive care away, So we will be together like birds of one feather, Like bees in one hive contented we'll stay. So now I am placed in my cottage contented With woodbine and ivy climbing all round the door, I am happy as those that's got plenty of riches, Contented I'll stay and go rambling no more. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: spencer the rover From: GUEST Date: 14 Jan 05 - 07:53 AM Been able to look at the Bodley texts now - almost all are very similar, with the garbled line: "It tasted more fresh than gold that ne'er wasted" whatever THAT means But this one Young Spencer the Rover DOES HAVE the internal rhymes More sweet then it tasted than the gold he had wasted and So we unite together, like birds of one feather There is no date for this one, but maybe it is closer to the original than other versions, or perhaps it has been 'corrected' by the printer? |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: spencer the rover From: pavane Date: 13 Jan 05 - 02:59 PM There are about a dozen versions, dating from about 1850 on, in the Bodleian Ballad library. Unfortunately, it seems to be having some problems in displaying the images at present, so I can't check the text for the suggested internal rhymes. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: spencer the rover From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 13 Jan 05 - 02:07 PM I am still looking for a good date for the earliest use of Remember Remember....etc... Would be helpful to get an earliest date for this song. CB |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: spencer the rover From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 13 Jan 05 - 02:06 PM You bet ya! Date of the gunpowder plot discovery. See my web pages on the topic: http://www.bcpl.net/~cbladey/guy/html/mainz.html To the gunpowder plot pages clickit right here Check out my booklet which is the first comprehensive collection of all of the rhymes and customs of the day along with songs. Remember remember The Fifth of November Gunpowder Treason and Plot I see no reason Why Gunpowder Treason Should Ever be forgot Conrad Bladey Peasant |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: spencer the rover From: Linda Mattson Date: 13 Jan 05 - 03:28 AM I think it's fascinating that all the versions here keep the same date - 5th of November. i wonder if it refers to some historical event? -Linda |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: spencer the rover From: Mr Happy Date: 12 Jan 05 - 07:46 PM Sang this tonight. Slightly different from DT version, but its the one done round here. |
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Subject: ADD Version: Spencer the Rover From: Mr Happy Date: 12 Jan 05 - 07:44 PM SPENCER THE ROVER This song was composed by Spencer the Rover, Who'd travelled through England and most parts of Wales, There had been much reducing which caused great confusion, And that was the reason he rambled away In Yorkshire near Rotherham still being on the ramble, Being weary of travelling he sat down to rest, At the foot of the mountain there sprung a clear fountain With pleasant cold water himself did refresh. It tasted more sweeter than the gold he had wasted, More sweeter than honey and gave more content, But the thoughts of his children lamenting their father Brought tears to his eyes and caused him to repent. Now the night fast approaching, to the woods he departed, With woodbine and ivy his bed for to make, he heard the birds sighing, lamenting and crying, Come home to your family and rambling forsake. Oh the fifth of November I've got reasons to remember 'Twas then I first returned to my family and wife, They looked so surprised to see my arrival, To see such a stranger once more in their life. Then his children gathered round him with their prittle, prattling stories, With their prittle, prattling stories which to drive care away, So we will be united like birds of one feather, Like bees in one hive contented we'll stay. So now I am placed in my cottage contented With woodbine and ivy climbing all round the door, I am happy as those that's got plenty of riches, Contented I'll stay and go rambling no more. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: spencer the rover From: GUEST,Henryp Date: 26 Nov 04 - 12:26 PM I should think that you're right! Some rhymes do seem to have been lost. To rhyme with Wales, one version above has; And that was the reason he set off on the rails. Another version collected by Bob Copper already has; So we will unite together like birds of a feather. And to rhyme with away; Like bees in one hive so contented we'll stay. So it seems likely that other lines once had an internal rhyme. Depending upon your preference for money or victuals, it might have been; Much sweeter it tasted than the gold/food he had wasted. Gold seems a greater loss. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: spencer the rover From: Snuffy Date: 26 Nov 04 - 08:44 AM In many cases the 1st and/or third lines of verses have internal rhymes (mountain/fountain, November/remember etc). Is it too fanciful to guess that originally all these lines had internal rhymes? A couple of possibles are: More sweeter it tasted than the gold he had wasted in place of It tasted more sweeter than the gold he had wasted now united together like birds of one feather in place of now they are united like birds of one feather Just a guess, I've no evidence to back it up. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: spencer the rover From: GUEST,Anne Croucher Date: 25 Nov 04 - 06:30 PM I just looked at my version of this and it is word for word identical with the Jim Barrett one. I do wish I had identified my sources - I used to hear a song and write it down and then sing it - wish I had the same memory now. At least I can now write in the singer, if anyone is ever interested in my collection. Anne |
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Subject: Lyr Add: SPENCER THE ROVER (from the Copper Family From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 25 Nov 04 - 07:09 AM Copper Family Versions SPENCER THE ROVER From Bob, John and Jill Copper and Jon Dudley on the Coppersongs3 These words were composed by Spencer the Rover Who had travelled Great Britain and most parts of Wales He had been so reduced which caused great confusion And that was the reason he went on the roam In Yorkshire near Rotherham he had been on his rambles Being weary of travelling he sat down to rest At the foot of yonder mountain there runs a clear fountain With bread and cold water he himself did refresh It tasted more sweeter than the gold he had wasted More sweeter than honey and gave more content But the thoughts of his babies lamenting their father Brought tears to his eyes and caused him to lament The night fast approaching to the woods he resorted With woodbine and ivy his bed for to make There he dreamt about sighing lamenting and crying To home to your family and rambling forsake On the fifth of November I've a reason to remember When first he arrived home to his family and wife They stood so surprised when first he arrived To see such a stranger once more in their sight His children came around him with their prittle-prattling stories With their prittle-prattling stories to drive care away Now they are united like birds of one feather Like bees in one hive contented they'll stay So now he is a-living in his cottage contented With woodbine and roses growing all around the door He's as happy as those that's got thousands of riches Contented he'll stay and go rambling no more VERSION 2 Collected by Bob Copper in about 1954 from Jim Barrett, at the Fox in North Waltham, Hants This song was composed by Spencer the Rover, Who'd travelled most parts of Great Britain and Wales, There had been much reducing which caused great confusion, And that was the reason a-rambling I went. In Yorkshire near Rotherham still being on my rambles, Being weary of travelling I sat down to rest, At the foot of the mountain there sprung a clear fountain Of pleasant cool water myself to refresh. It tasted more sweeter than the food I had wasted, More sweeter than honey and gave more content, But the thoughts of my children lamenting for their father Brought tears to my eyes and caused me to repent. Now the night fast approaching, to the woods I departed, With woodbine and ivy my bed for to make, I heard a bird sighing, lamenting and crying, Come home to your family and rambling forsake. On the fifth of November I've a reason to remember 'Twas then I first returned to my family and wife, They looked so surprising to see me arriving, To see such a stranger once more in their sight. Then me children came round me with their pretty, prattling stories, With their pretty, prattling stories which drove dull care away, So we will unite together like birds of a feather, Like bees in one hive so contented we'll stay. So now I am placed in my cottage contented With woodbine and roses climbing all round the door, I am happy as those that's got plenty of riches, Contented I'll stay and go rambling no more. |
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Subject: Lyr Add: SPENCER THE ROVER (from Bodleian Library) From: Jim Dixon Date: 26 Mar 03 - 09:56 AM This seems sufficiently different from the version in DigiTrad to make it worth posting here. Transcribed from the image of the broadside at http://bodley24.bodley.ox.ac.uk/cgi-bin/acwwweng/ballads/image.pl?ref=Firth+c.21(8)&id=19522.gif&seq=1&size=1 The Bodleian Library allegro Catalogue of Ballads, Firth c.21(8) SPENCER THE ROVER H. P. Such, Printer and Publisher, 177, Union Street, Borough. S.E. [London] [between 1863 and 1885] These words were composed by Spencer the Rover, Who had travelled great part of both Great Britain and Wales; He being reduced cause great confusion, And that was the reason he set off on the rails.. In Yorkshire near Rotherham, he being on his rambles, Being weary of travelling he sat down to rest, At the foot of yon mountain where runs a clear fountain, With bread and cold water himself to refresh. It tasted more sweet than the gold he had wasted, Sweeter than honey and gave more content, For the thought of his babes lamenting their father, Brought tears in his eyes which made him lament. The night fast approaching to the woods he resorted, With woodbine and ivy his bed for to make, He dreamt about sighing, lamenting and crying, Come home to your children and rambling forsake. On the fifth of November, I've reason to remember, When first I arrived to my family and wife, She stood so surprised to see me arrive, To see such a stranger once more in her sight. My children came round me with their nice prattling stories, With their nice prattling stories to drive care away, So we're united together like birds of one feather, Like bees in one hive contented we'll be. Now I'm placed in my cottage contented, With roses and woodbines that hang round my door, And as happy as those that have plenty of riches, Contented I'll stop and go rambling no more. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: spencer the rover From: Mark Cohen Date: 25 Mar 03 - 05:07 AM For you unbelievers, here's Dr. Brown's Cel-Ray! |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: spencer the rover From: Mark Cohen Date: 25 Mar 03 - 05:02 AM And let's not forget Irving the Rover. Anybody know who wrote it? By the way, the Yiddish word is more accurately transliterated as farblundzhet, and means "lost"--but "confusion" scans better! Aloha, Mark (who can't find Dr. Brown's Cel-Ray in Hawaii...) |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: spencer the rover From: Joe Offer Date: 25 Mar 03 - 01:56 AM There's not much in the Traditional Ballad Index. The Digital Tradition has the lyrics found in Kennedy's Folksongs of Britain and Ireland. Kennedy recorded Bob and Ron Copper in 1955. The 1955 recording is available on an extraordinary Topic CD, Come Write Me Down: The Early Recordings of the Copper Family of Rottingdean (Topic #TSCD534). I got my copy from Dick Greenhaus at CAMSCO. -Joe Offer- Traditional Ballad Index entry: Spencer the RoverDESCRIPTION: "These words were composed by Spencer the Rover, who travelled Great Britain and most parts of Wales." After much rambling and assorted adventures, he returns "to his family and wife" and decides to go roving no moreAUTHOR: unknown EARLIEST DATE: before 1856 (broadside, Bodleian Harding B 11(3617)) KEYWORDS: rambling family return FOUND IN: Britain(England(All)) REFERENCES (5 citations): Williams-Thames, pp. 130-131, "Spencer the Rover" (1 text) (also Wiltshire-WSRO Wt 327) Kidson-Tunes, pp. 154-156, "Spencer the Rover" (1 text, 1 tune) Kennedy 331, "Spencer the Rover" (1 text, 1 tune) Copper-SoBreeze, pp. 264-265, "Spencer the Rover" (1 text, 1 tune) DT, SPENCROV* Roud #1115 BROADSIDES: Bodleian, Harding B 11(3617), "Spencer the Rover" ("These words were composed by Spencer the rover"), J. Cadman (Manchester), 1850-1855; also Firth c.21(8), Johnson Ballads 1880, Harding B 11(3616), Harding B 25(1824), Firth b.25(257), Johnson Ballads 1842 [some words illegible], Harding B 11(3620), 2806 c.16(36), Firth c.26(209), Harding B 11(3618) LOCSinging, as102610, "Spencer the Rover" ("These words were composed by Spencer the Rover"), Jackson & Son (Birmingham), no date File: K331 Go to the Ballad Search form Go to the Ballad Index Instructions The Ballad Index Copyright 2014 by Robert B. Waltz and David G. Engle. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: spencer the rover From: Little Robyn Date: 24 Mar 03 - 08:18 PM Then there's the Kipper Family version - Spencer the Wild Rover! ^^ |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: spencer the rover From: masato sakurai Date: 24 Mar 03 - 11:52 AM There're two versions at The Copper Family: Spencer the Rover. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: spencer the rover From: Dave Wynn Date: 24 Mar 03 - 11:32 AM What good thread. I have been singing this for more than 25 years (since I was two :-)) and have just found the last verse. Thanks GUEST,Kenny. All other lyrics within a whisper of my versions. Spot |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: spencer the rover From: masato sakurai Date: 24 Mar 03 - 11:13 AM Sheet music is at Digital Tradition Mirror. Info below is from folktrax: SPENCER THE ROVER - "These words were compos-ed by STR, who travelled through England and most parts of Wales" - feels remorse - returns home to his family - ROUD#1115 - Bs by FORD of Chesterfield 1830s (Palmer Reprint 2001) - SBG 4#414, 5#146, 6#188 & 9#124 - MASON NRCS 1877 p44 Derbysh - KIDSON TT 1891 pp154-6 Yorksh - JFSS 6:21 1918 pp22-4 Frederick Keel: W Tilbury, Thursley, Surrey/ W Wickham, Blackham, Surrey 1907 (m/o)/ Gilchrist: suggests assonance suggests Gaelic origin & note about composers name being given in song (Cf German & French trad) - GRAINGER #144 Samuel Stokes, Retford, Nottinghamsh 1906/ #145 George R Orton, Barrow, Lincolnsh 1906 - WILLIAMS FSUT 1923 p130 James Harris, Southleigh, nr Witney, Oxfordsh/ #327 Daniel Morgan, Braydon Wood, Wiltsh (w/o) - SING 9/1 Feb 1966 Copper - ED&S 30:4 1968 p130 W Tilbury from JFSS 1918 - STUBBS LOM 1970 pp66-7 Mrs Ursula Ridley, West Hoathly, Sussex 1962 - COPPER SESB 1971 pp230-231 - COPPER SSB 1973 p264 - PURSLOW FD 1974 p85 Gardiner: George Blake, Southampton, Hampsh 1906 - KENNEDY FSBI 1975 #331 p717 7v/m Bob & Ron Copper - FOXWORTHY 1976 Janet Blunt coll Oxon 1913 - ANDREWS SOD 1979 Michael Blann Ms, Upper Beeding, Sussex 1v (w/o) - see NOTHING ELSE TO DO -- James & his son, Bob COPPER of Rottingdean rec by Brian George, Peacehaven, Sussex 1/3/51: RPL 16066 - Bob & Ron COPPER (cousins) rec by PK, Peacehaven, Sussex 1955: EFDSS LP 1002 1963/ EFDSS CD-02 1998/ FOLK LEGACY FSB-19/ 029 & 082/ TOPIC TSCD-534 2001 - Bob, John & Jill with Stephen FAUX (fid) 4x30 min progs on Radio 2: Oct 1990/ CASS-60-1013-4 - Jim BARRATT rec by Bob Copper, North Waltham, Hampsh 12/8/55: RPL 21861/ 416 - Shirley COLLINS & Dolly (flute-organ): TOPIC 12-T-170 1967 - Bob, Ron, John & Jill (Bob's son & daughter): LEADER LEA-4046 1971 (boxed set) - MUCKRAM WAKES: LEADER LER-2085 1973 (from Mason) There're 11 editions at Bodleian Library Broadside Ballads: Spencer the Rover. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: spencer the rover From: masato sakurai Date: 24 Mar 03 - 09:06 AM SPENCER THE ROVER is in the DT. |
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Subject: RE: Chords. Spencer the Rover From: johnp Date: 20 Dec 99 - 03:44 PM Any history of this song? |
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Subject: RE: Chords. Spencer the Rover From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 20 Dec 99 - 02:37 PM That's the idea. |
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Subject: RE: Chords. Spencer the Rover From: Date: 19 Dec 99 - 10:09 PM Thanks McGrath of Harlow...they don't come much simpler! |
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Subject: RE: Chords. Spencer the Rover From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 19 Dec 99 - 07:49 PM This(C)song was composed by(F) Spencer the(G) Rover Who(C)travelled all England, and(F) most parts of (G)Wales He had(C) been so reduced it(F) caused great con(G)fusion, and(C)that was the reason he(F) went on(G)the(C)roam.
You could put in lots of extra changes of chords if you wanted, but I believe in keeping it simple, ands that's about as simple as possible. Not that Spencer the Roiver needs an accompaniment anyway. |
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Subject: Chords. Spencer the Rover From: johnp Date: 19 Dec 99 - 05:07 PM Thank you all for this great site. I can't quite work out the chords for this song and I know it should be simple! |
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