Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafemuddy

Post to this Thread - Sort Descending - Printer Friendly - Home


Origins: Lagan Love

DigiTrad:
MY LAGAN LOVE


Related threads:
My Lagan Love (43)
the word 'dooring' from Lagan Love (29)
Lyr Req: My Lagan Love (Joseph Campbell) (5)
Tune Req: My Lagan Love (15)
My Lagan Love in French - is this OK? (8)
Origins: My Lagan Love (11)
Chords Req: My Lagan Love (20)
DT error My Lagan Love (6)


Ian HP 23 Jul 98 - 01:53 PM
alison 23 Jul 98 - 08:35 PM
Martin Ryan. 23 Jul 98 - 08:41 PM
alison 23 Jul 98 - 09:10 PM
Martin Ryan 24 Jul 98 - 06:30 AM
Anne Cormack 24 Jul 98 - 09:38 AM
alison 25 Jul 98 - 01:43 AM
Ian HP 25 Jul 98 - 02:35 PM
alison 25 Jul 98 - 09:22 PM
Ian HP 26 Jul 98 - 01:53 PM
Martin Ryan. 26 Jul 98 - 06:34 PM
Moira Cameron 26 Jul 98 - 11:24 PM
alison 27 Jul 98 - 02:58 AM
Susan-Marie 27 Jul 98 - 08:03 AM
Ian HP 27 Jul 98 - 03:41 PM
Brack& 27 Jul 98 - 08:46 PM
Martin Ryan 28 Jul 98 - 07:11 AM
Martin Ryan 28 Jul 98 - 07:23 AM
Susan-Marie 28 Jul 98 - 08:47 AM
Martin Ryan 29 Jul 98 - 03:45 AM
Brack& 29 Jul 98 - 04:11 AM
Ian HP 22 Aug 98 - 03:24 PM
Philippa 15 Sep 99 - 03:16 PM
Alice 15 Sep 99 - 06:46 PM
16 Sep 99 - 05:55 AM
John Moulden 16 Sep 99 - 07:44 AM
Alice 16 Sep 99 - 11:22 AM
Philippa 16 Sep 99 - 12:30 PM
Conán 17 Sep 99 - 06:47 AM
John Moulden 17 Sep 99 - 07:04 PM
Malcolm Douglas 17 Sep 99 - 09:55 PM
Uncle_DaveO 21 Sep 00 - 02:49 PM
GUEST,Philippa 22 Jun 02 - 09:09 AM
greg stephens 22 Jun 02 - 09:35 AM
michaelr 16 Nov 02 - 10:56 PM
Big Tim 17 Nov 02 - 03:37 AM
greg stephens 17 Nov 02 - 04:25 AM
Big Tim 17 Nov 02 - 01:01 PM
John MacKenzie 17 Nov 02 - 01:50 PM
GUEST,Ard Mhacha 17 Nov 02 - 02:28 PM
dermod in salisbury 18 Nov 02 - 11:03 AM
GUEST 18 Nov 02 - 11:37 AM
Big Tim 18 Nov 02 - 01:02 PM
MartinRyan 19 Nov 02 - 06:44 PM
Alice 19 Nov 02 - 06:51 PM
Big Tim 20 Nov 02 - 07:34 AM
GUEST,Feral Boy 25 May 07 - 09:54 AM
Dave'sWife 25 May 07 - 10:20 AM
Jim Lad 25 May 07 - 12:08 PM
Jim Lad 25 May 07 - 12:13 PM
GUEST,M. C. 22 Feb 08 - 09:52 AM
Nerd 22 Feb 08 - 11:04 AM
Malcolm Douglas 22 Feb 08 - 04:00 PM
GUEST,M.C. 28 Feb 08 - 10:17 AM
An Buachaill Caol Dubh 28 Feb 08 - 11:26 AM
Uncle_DaveO 28 Feb 08 - 01:59 PM
GUEST 28 Feb 08 - 02:17 PM
An Buachaill Caol Dubh 28 Feb 08 - 02:45 PM
GUEST,California 20 Jun 11 - 10:36 PM
GUEST,Chris 22 Nov 16 - 03:59 AM
Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:









Subject: LAGAN LOVE QUERY
From: Ian HP
Date: 23 Jul 98 - 01:53 PM

On Lagan Love on the database there are attempts to explain some words. Can anyone offer any explanation (or explanation futher to the database) on the meaning of:

verse 1 - "like a love-sick lennan-shee" verse 2 - "I steal unto her shieling lorn / And thru the dorring peep" verse 3 - "And when I stir my soot to go" (is this a typo? should it be "foot to go"?) And is Lagan the name of a place?

Any help anyone?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: LAGAN LOVE QUERY
From: alison
Date: 23 Jul 98 - 08:35 PM

Hi,

the Lagan is a river in Northern Ireland which flows through Belfast. It was used for transport and the Lagan towpath still exists and is a lovely place to walk as it goes through some very nice countryside. Many's a time I've canoed there.

I'll see what my books say on the other words later.

Slainte

Alison


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: LAGAN LOVE QUERY
From: Martin Ryan.
Date: 23 Jul 98 - 08:41 PM

"leanan si" is "fairy child".

Regards


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: LAGAN LOVE QUERY
From: alison
Date: 23 Jul 98 - 09:10 PM

Hi,

According to my book a "leanan si" is a fairy mistress. I have a different 4 lines at the end of the 3rd verse.

when she was only fairy small
Her gentle mother died
But true love keeps her memory warm
By Lagan's silver side.

Isn't a "shieling" like a barn or cottage.

Slainte

Alison


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: LAGAN LOVE QUERY
From: Martin Ryan
Date: 24 Jul 98 - 06:30 AM

Alison

Yes! I'll give you that one - I'm too literal, as usual!

Regards


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: LAGAN LOVE QUERY
From: Anne Cormack
Date: 24 Jul 98 - 09:38 AM

The version I have uses the words

"like a love sick leman she"

"leman" is an old word for "lover" from what I have been told


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: LAGAN LOVE QUERY
From: alison
Date: 25 Jul 98 - 01:43 AM

Hi anne,

well that would make it "fairy lover"(shee being fairy..... like banshee (bean- woman, shee - fairy))

Slainte

Alison


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: LAGAN LOVE QUERY
From: Ian HP
Date: 25 Jul 98 - 02:35 PM

Thanks a lot, folks, that's a geeat help. Anyone for verse 3 - "And when I stir my soot to go" - is this a typo? should it be "foot to go"? If not, what does "soot" mean here?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: LAGAN LOVE QUERY
From: alison
Date: 25 Jul 98 - 09:22 PM

Hi,

Just a suggestion, could it be soot as in suitor, ie. he'll take his affections elsewhere?

Just a thought

Slainte

ALison


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: LAGAN LOVE QUERY
From: Ian HP
Date: 26 Jul 98 - 01:53 PM

Thanks, Alison - it seems you are kind of right. I have just discovered that "soot" - (pron. "suit", the "oo" as in "fool") means sweet. Thanks a lot, everyone.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: LAGAN LOVE QUERY
From: Martin Ryan.
Date: 26 Jul 98 - 06:34 PM

Let's not get carried away (even by fairies)! This is very much a "drawing room ballad", to be sung with hands clutched across your stomach. The bits of Gaelic are, I'm afraid, an affectation - rather than something growing out of the song or out of an existing tradition.

All that doesn't take away from a beautiful tune. But as a song....?

Regards.

p.s. I'm well aware that songs of this type can sometimes be transformed into magic. I recall "The Shortcut to the Rosses" being sung once in a way that made the hair on my neck stand up - but I also recall hearing it sung hundreds of times in a way that made me cringe!


Thread about The Shortcut to the Rosses


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: LAGAN LOVE QUERY
From: Moira Cameron
Date: 26 Jul 98 - 11:24 PM

I think there is an error in the lyrics printed above. "And thru the dorring peep" should read "through the door-ring peep"; ie he's a peeping tom, looking through a key hole. At least, that's how I've always interpreted those lyrics.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: LAGAN LOVE QUERY
From: alison
Date: 27 Jul 98 - 02:58 AM

Careful Martin, the little people might be listening!!

Slainte

Alison


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: LAGAN LOVE QUERY
From: Susan-Marie
Date: 27 Jul 98 - 08:03 AM

What a coincidence - I'm right now in the process of learning this song from a recording by Jean Redpath, who does an awesome job of ornamentation. Can someone please tell me what the reference to "thye crickets's singing stone" means?

Of the two recordings I have of this song, neither contains the third verse. I'm wondering if it was added after the first two were written - all that stuff about "felicity" and "no taint of sin" seems very stiff and puritan compared to the pastoral imagery in the first two verses.

And I have to confess I assumed that "soot" was a typo and changed it to "foot" in my lyrics file (didn't old English use f's for s's and vice versa?)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: LAGAN LOVE QUERY
From: Ian HP
Date: 27 Jul 98 - 03:41 PM

I've just spoken on the 'phone to a friend of mine, Jenny, who is of Irish descent and speaks Irish. She tells me that the name Seosamh MacCathmhaoil - the writer of the words of 'My Lagan Love' - is a Gaelicisation of the English name Joseph Campbell (the proper name of the writer) rather than Joseph Campbell being an Anglicisation of an Irish name. Apparently, there was a fashion among the intelligentsia in the 19th century (including the Bloomsbury Set) for Irish-ising, Scottish-ising and Gaelic-ising everything, to the point of giving pseudo-Gaelic spellings to their names and writing trad. songs from English into Gaelic! So, Martin, this backs up what you tell me above. Ah well, I still think it's a lovely song!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: LAGAN LOVE QUERY
From: Brack&
Date: 27 Jul 98 - 08:46 PM

Joseph Campbell is also credited with writing The Gartan Mother's Lullaby and The Spanish Lady


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: LAGAN LOVE QUERY
From: Martin Ryan
Date: 28 Jul 98 - 07:11 AM

Brack&
Spanish Lady? One version, maybe. Gartan Mother's lullaby was discussed in another thread lately.

Regards


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: LAGAN LOVE QUERY
From: Martin Ryan
Date: 28 Jul 98 - 07:23 AM

On the semi-serious point behind this thread: The Irish folk tradition is no different from any other in its concern with fundamentals - it's just that, of all the English language traditions, it needed least "reviving" - so the knobbly bits show!

Regards


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: LAGAN LOVE QUERY
From: Susan-Marie
Date: 28 Jul 98 - 08:47 AM

So, given that these lyrics are not "pure" traditional, is there any meaning to "thye cricket's singing stone" or it part of the affectation?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: LAGAN LOVE QUERY
From: Martin Ryan
Date: 29 Jul 98 - 03:45 AM

The cricket is an insect which makes a ticking noise, often found on the hearth stone in old houses. Sound image of domestic bliss!

Regards

p.s.If my earlier posting (28 July) sounds mysterious - its just that it's in the wrong thread!Apologies.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: LAGAN LOVE QUERY
From: Brack&
Date: 29 Jul 98 - 04:11 AM

Martin.....Spanish Lady? yeah I know what you mean. I have a book here that credits Campbell with this song. I thought it was a bit dubious when I read it. Which goes to prove...........er

Mick Bracken


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: Lyr Add: MY LAGAN LOVE (Joseph Campbell)
From: Ian HP
Date: 22 Aug 98 - 03:24 PM

MY LAGAN LOVE
words Joseph Campbell (a.k.a Seosamh MacCathmhaoil) 1881-19??,
tune traditional Irish

Here are some notes for the above.

verse 3 is variously either . . .
Her welcome, like her love for me, is from her heart within
Her warm kiss is felicity that knows no taint or sin
When she was only fairy small her gentle mother died
But true love keeps her memory warm by Lagan's silver side

or . . .
Her welcome, like her love for me, is from her heart within
Her warm kiss is felicity that knows no taint or sin
And when I stir, my soot, to go, 'tis leaving love and light
To feel the wind of longing blow from out the dark of night

Notes:
"Lagan" - the Lagan is a river in Northern Ireland which flows through Belfast
"lennan-shee" / "lenanshee" / "leanan si" - "fairy mistress", literally "fairy child"
One version has "leman shee": "leman" - an old word for "lover"; shee - fairy = "fairy lover" (like banshee: bean - woman, shee - fairy)
"shieling" - a shepherd's summer hut, like a barn or a cottage
"soot" - (pron. "suit", the "oo" as in "fool") sweet

The author's name, Seosamh MacCathmhaoil, is a Gaelicisation of Joseph Campbell. There was a fashion for Irish-ising, Scottish-ising and Gaelic-ising everything in the latter 19th and early 20th century among the intelligentsia, to the point of giving pseudo-Gaelic spellings to their names and writing trad. songs into Gaelic! The bits of Gaelic are an affectation rather than something growing out of the song or out of an existing tradition.


I moved this message here from another thread on the same topic.
-Joe Offer-


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: LAGAN LOVE QUERY
From: Philippa
Date: 15 Sep 99 - 03:16 PM

sorry, Alison, I suspect this is the Donegal Lagan rather than the Belfast one


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: LAGAN LOVE QUERY
From: Alice
Date: 15 Sep 99 - 06:46 PM

I'm trying to move this all to one thread, so I copied and pasted from two other threads where I added this:

To add to this, here is a quote from a book that I received today via internet used bookstore, "Mary O'Hara A Song For Ireland".

"...The Lagan is that well known river on which Belfast is built and so people are apt to assume that 'My Lagan Love' comes from County Antrim in the north-east corner of Ireland. However, some argue that the Lagan in the song refers to a stream that empties into Lough Swilly in County Donegal, not far from Letterkenny, where Herbert Hughes collected the song in 1903. Hughes first heard the tune played on a fiddle and traced it back to a sapper of the royal Engineers working in Donegal in 1870 with the Ordnance Survey of Ireland... " end quote

Previous words sung to the tune were 'The Belfast Maid'. Hamilton Hearty created the classical arrangement that we hear recorded today.

After quoting some background information about My Lagan Love in the thread about the meaning of folk, I checked the lyrics in the DT. The notes at the bottom of the lyrics make guesses about the meaning of "leanán sídhe" based on Scottish words. The song is from Ireland. The author is Joseph Campbell aka Seósamh Mac Cathmahaoil.

To quote from Mary O'Hara's notes on this song, from her book "A Song For Ireland", - "The leánan sídhe (fairy mistress) mentioned in the song is a malicious figure who frequently crops up in Gaelic love stories. One could call her the femme fatale of Gaelic folklore. She sought the love of men; if they refused, she became their slave, but if they consented, they became her slaves and could only escape by finding another to take their place. She fed off them so her lovers gradually wasted away - a common enough theme in Gaelic medieval poetry, which often saw love as a kind of sickness. Most Gaelic poets in the past had their leanán sídhe to give them inspiration. This malignant fairy was for them a sort of Gaelic muse. On the other hand, the crickets mentioned in the song are a sign of good luck and their sound on the hearth a good omen. It was the custom of newly-married couples about to set up home to bring crickets from the hearths of their parents' house and place them in the new hearth."

This mythological femme fatale reminds me of the vilia of Germany, used in the song by Franz Lehar in The Merry Widow opera. Vilia, the spirit woman of the wood, entices the huntsman, and if he sees her he falls in love, which means his death. "vilia, oh, vilia, be tender be true, love me and I'll die for you."

Alice Flynn


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: LAGAN LOVE QUERY
From:
Date: 16 Sep 99 - 05:55 AM

I think the jury is out - we can't be sure whether to place the song in Belfast or Donegal?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: Lyr Add: MY LAGAN LOVE
From: John Moulden
Date: 16 Sep 99 - 07:44 AM

You may be quite certain that it is the river which flows through Belfast. The song was first published in "Songs of Uladh" <> [Herbert Hughes and Joseph Campbell] published in Belfast by William Mullan and sons and in Dublin by MH Gill, 1904.

Hughes' preface says: "I made this collection while on holiday in North Dun-na-nGall in August of last year."
My Lagan Love is on page 32. The note says, "I got this from Proinseas mac Suibhne who played it for me on the fidil. He had it from his father Seaghan mac Suibhne, who learned it from a sapper working on the Ordnance Survey in Tearmann about fifty years ago. It was sung to a ballad called the "Belfast Maid," now forgotten in Cill-mac-nEnain." [This pretension in spelling etc is typical of the Gaelic Revival flavour of this book - it is also embellished with "Celtic knots" and fanciful derivations of half uncial script.]

There are four stanzas but sung as five with the repetition of the first one.

The second stanza, whose authenticity is thus placed beyond doubt is:

Her father sails a running-barge
'Twixt Leamh-beag and The Druim;
And on the lonely river-marge
She elears his hearth for him.
When she was only fairy-high
Her gentle mother died;
But dew-Love keeps her memory
Green on the Lagan side.

and the fourth:

Her welcome, like her love for me,
Is from her heart within:
Her warm kiss is felicity
That knows no taint of sin.
And, when I stir my foot to go,
'Tis leaving Love and light
To feel the wind of longing blow
From out the dark of night.

I don't have an idea what "elears" means, unless it's a misprint for clears but Lambeg is a village between Lisburn and Belfast and the Drum is the site of a bridge across the river and the canal which was made beside it which eventually diverged from the river and entered Lough Neagh.

There are notes on Leanan-sidhe "fairy mistress and on the crickets of the "crickets' singing stone" [note the apostrophe in "crickets'"] and these will help clear other mysteries made acute by distance. Except for the confusion over "dorring dooring, door-ring" - The book, our best authority in this case of a composed rather than traditionally constructed song, says "dooring" which I take to be a diminutive of "door" used for the sake of scansion!

Is that all?

HTML line breaks added. --JoeClone, 19-Nov-02.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: LAGAN LOVE QUERY
From: Alice
Date: 16 Sep 99 - 11:22 AM

John, thank you for setting this straight (in other words, clearing up the confusion).


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: LAGAN LOVE QUERY
From: Philippa
Date: 16 Sep 99 - 12:30 PM

Thanks John; I said that the jury was out, but I think you've given good evidence(Lambeg and Drum)for the Belfast Lagan.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: LAGAN LOVE QUERY
From: Conán
Date: 17 Sep 99 - 06:47 AM

Hi y'all, "Doring/dooring" should more properly be spelt "dóirín" i.e. the English word "door" with the diminutive Irish suffix "-ín". To the un-Gaelic ear this might sound very like "doring. Hope this clears up the point. Conán


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: LAGAN LOVE QUERY
From: John Moulden
Date: 17 Sep 99 - 07:04 PM

I see the argument as regards the derivation of dooring from dóirín but it is a fact that the first publication of this song prints it as "dooring" and since the authors/ editors use irish style spelling and form elsewhere I would assume that "dooring" was intended.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: LAGAN LOVE QUERY
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 17 Sep 99 - 09:55 PM

Always assumed "dooring" as in "planking" (for example)- that is to say, the door [and the substance of which it is made].

Malcolm


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: LAGAN LOVE QUERY
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 21 Sep 00 - 02:49 PM

Susan-Marie:

As to "F" for "S", you're talking about the medial "S" form, used only in the middle of a word, which sort of looks like a written or italic "F". You wouldn't use it for the "S" in "soot" because it's not in the middle of the word.

Dave Oesterreich


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: LAGAN LOVE QUERY
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 22 Jun 02 - 09:09 AM

At www.barbarygrant.com, "My Lagan Love" is credited to Joseph McCahill. I found the same name in John Loesberg,ed "Folksongs and Ballads Popular in Ireland" vol 2: "Words by Joseph Mc Cahill, with an ancient air. An American version is called "the quiet joys of brotherhood".

It seems that Joseph Campbell's name has been translated back from the Irish Seosamh Mac Cathmhaoil; I can see how one might come up with 'Mac Cahill'.

I've heard Pete Seeger sing 'The Quiet Joys of Brotherhood'; did he write the words? Loesberg actually does quite well with the notes of his books, as far as I can tell; many songbooks give no background information at all. But calling 'The Quiet Joys of Brotherhood' an American version of 'My Lagan Love' is like calling 'Come By the Hills' a Scottish version of 'Buachaill ón Eirne' or 'Masters of War' an American version of 'The Patriot Game'.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: LAGAN LOVE QUERY
From: greg stephens
Date: 22 Jun 02 - 09:35 AM

Whenever I see people discussing songs that the immortal Lonnie Donegan did,I always point it out. So why change now? What a repertoire the guy has!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: LAGAN LOVE QUERY
From: michaelr
Date: 16 Nov 02 - 10:56 PM

"Quiet Joys of Brotherhood" was written by Richard Farina.

Cheers,
Michael


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: LAGAN LOVE QUERY
From: Big Tim
Date: 17 Nov 02 - 03:37 AM

Yea, Greg: Lonnie Donegal recorded it in 1959, on a Pye single, the very first I even bought, age 14, little did I know where it would lead, still got it! The flipside? "Kevin Barry".

Yes it's definitely the Lagan near Belfast. Campbell was born in Castlereagh Road, east Belfast, just a couple of miles from the Lagan. In his youth he suffered from some "nervous" problems and often went for long rambles along the Lagan's banks, joining the River at Shaw's Bridge. There are quite a few other references to the geography of this area in some of his other poems.
The Donegal "Laggan" theory is though an interesting diversion. I always regard "My Lagan Love" and the "Gartan Mothers' Lullaby" as virtually "sister songs" (the language used in both contains many identical words and phrases), what I can't understand is why he separated them geographically by a hundred miles, which in Ulster in 1904 was a long way?

"the crickets singing stone" is a reference to the folk custom of, to quote Campbell in the "Songs of Uladh", "in South Ard Macha [Armagh]when a young married couple are about to take up house for themselves, it is a custom with them to carry a brace of crickets each in a match-box from the old parents hearths, these to bring luck to their own, and when secured to hold it there."                     

He says that the lenanshee, "leanan-sidhe" was "a fairy mistress who seeks the love of mortals...she is the Gaelic muse...the Gaelic poets die young, for she is restless and will not let them remain long on earth, this malignant phantom".                                 

Campbell spoke Irish well: his grandparents were native speakers on a farm at Flurrybridge, South Armagh, and he used to spend his summer holidays there.

Campbell is said to have been a cousin of Ethna Carbery, can anyone elaborate on this?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: LAGAN LOVE QUERY
From: greg stephens
Date: 17 Nov 02 - 04:25 AM

Never knew that was out on a single or it would be in my collection. I got the EP of Irish songs(big chunk of pocket money) which has, like a lot of my records, unaccountably vanished some time in the last 40 years.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: LAGAN LOVE QUERY
From: Big Tim
Date: 17 Nov 02 - 01:01 PM

Just noticed that I typed Lonnie Donegal! Talk about a freudian slip! Should of course be Lonnie Donegan. I never knew it was on an EP or it would be in my collection, much of which has also vanished over the last 40 odd years!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: LAGAN LOVE QUERY
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 17 Nov 02 - 01:50 PM

Kevin Barry, now there's another lovely song that I'd be scared to sing in mixed company, and more's the pity.
Damn all prejudice!
Giok


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: LAGAN LOVE QUERY
From: GUEST,Ard Mhacha
Date: 17 Nov 02 - 02:28 PM

Please spare us Lonnie Donegan singing My Lagan Love or you will have every half baked Tenor in the oul sod blowing a gasket.
If someone would have placed a clothes-peg on Lonnie`s nose he would have been mute, God rest poor Lonnie`s Soul, his claim to fame in my youth was when he got the boot from the BBC for singing rebel songs. Ard Mhacha.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: LAGAN LOVE QUERY
From: dermod in salisbury
Date: 18 Nov 02 - 11:03 AM

A bit unfair on Joseph Campbell to hint that he might have been a 'Bloomsbury Set' Irishman. He belonged to a generation which tried strongly to re-assert Irish culture. But he was not afraid to criticise what he saw as the shortcomings of the fledging Republican government, and spent two years imprisoned during the civil war period for his trouble. Most of his many poems are characterised by strong rural imagery written in spare, simple English. His words set to old Irish melodies are best known today, although frequently not credited. I particularly like his poem which opens with the lines 'Deep ways and dripping boughs, the fog falling drearily.' Not Bloomsbury Square, I think, but the genuine rain soaked article.

Best wishes


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: LAGAN LOVE QUERY
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Nov 02 - 11:37 AM

Definitely the Belfast Lagan:

"Her father sails a running barge
Twixt Lambeg and the Drum"

This places it firmly on the Lagan Navigation from Befast to Lough Neagh. The Drum is from an Irish word meaning a hill, not a reference to the dreaded Lambeg Drum of July 12th fame!

I've seen a reference to the composition of the English words: apparently a couple of fiddlers met while walking near Belfast, and, lamenting that such a fine tune lacked a song, sat down together and wrote one. I think I got that from Paddy Tunney's "The Stone Fiddle".
Incidentally, the song goes well into French: (sorry, no accents)

Ou Lagan fleuve chant ses berceuses
Ma jolie rose demurre.
La crepuscule est dans ses yeux,
La nuit sur ses cheveux.

Et comme une fee, elle m'a attrape,
Mon coeur elle tient toujours.
Elle a ma vie, ma liberte,
La reine de mon amour.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: LAGAN LOVE QUERY
From: Big Tim
Date: 18 Nov 02 - 01:02 PM

Any thoughts anyone on what JC meant by "dew-Love" in the second last line of the second verse?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: LAGAN LOVE QUERY
From: MartinRyan
Date: 19 Nov 02 - 06:44 PM

BigTim

A quick check in standard sources shows no mention of Campbell/Carbery being related.

Regards


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: LAGAN LOVE QUERY
From: Alice
Date: 19 Nov 02 - 06:51 PM

I think it is supposed to be "true love", maybe "dew" being an error. I'm sure someone will correct me if I am wrong about that.

Alice


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: LAGAN LOVE QUERY
From: Big Tim
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 07:34 AM

The Campbell/Carbery[Johnston] link is not supported by the maiden surnames in both families, going back to both of their grandparents (Helen Meehan of Donegal,a relative of Carbery through marriage, carried out the research and shared it with me). Helen also discoverd that Carbery was born in 1864, not 1866 as most of the standard books say. Anyway, if cousins, quite distant ones.

"Dew-Love": MLL is set at dusk/night, when the dew falls. Dew can also a symbol of freshness, possibly in JC's complex mind also one for purity/innocence/romanticism/idealism? Just a thought.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Origins: Lagan Love
From: GUEST,Feral Boy
Date: 25 May 07 - 09:54 AM

Dubh (pronounced doov or dew) = dark. One usually meets the sidhe at the crossroads, or at the crossing from day to night.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Origins: Lagan Love
From: Dave'sWife
Date: 25 May 07 - 10:20 AM

Big Tim gave some good info in this thread:
Subject: the word 'dooring' from Lagan Love


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Origins: Lagan Love
From: Jim Lad
Date: 25 May 07 - 12:08 PM

To one of the the original questions: "I steal unto her shieling lorn / And thru the dorring peep" ... A shieling is an outbuilding where sheep are kept over winter. I had always thought that it was "Shieling lawn" but will stand corrected. Regardless of this he is hiding behind the sheiling, trying to catch a glance of her through the open doorway. Presumably, as noted by the cricket's singing, it is summer and thus allowing for an open door rather than peeping through the window which would be far less acceptable in any song.
Moira asked: "Is he a peeping tom?" The short answer, to me, would be yes. I always think of this as a "Stalking song".
However, the passion and longing in this piece, bears no ill intention and is to my mind the "Unchained Melody" of traditional folk.
Jeany Redpath's rendition is perfect to my ear and her ornamentation, flawless.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Origins: Lagan Love
From: Jim Lad
Date: 25 May 07 - 12:13 PM

Another interpretation would be that she is actually in the shieling (many of which had no doors) and is watching her from the fold. I think this notion suits the song a little more readily..


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Origins: Lagan Love
From: GUEST,M. C.
Date: 22 Feb 08 - 09:52 AM

Does anyone know if My Lagan Love with Joseph Campbell's text is in the public domain or not? I understand he died in 1944, and that his words to the traditional tune were first published in 1904. I'd like to know if one can perform this version of the song in public without the need to obtain permission/licence, etc. Up until now I have always thought of it as a traditional song which was in the public domain.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Origins: Lagan Love
From: Nerd
Date: 22 Feb 08 - 11:04 AM

If we assume the words were copyright in the UK, then I believe the rule is they will pass into the Public Domain 70 years after the end of the year in which the death of the author occurred--so in this case, it will enter the public domain at the end of 2014. The same rules apply in Ireland today.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Origins: Lagan Love
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 22 Feb 08 - 04:00 PM

To repeat what I (or others) always say when somebody asks this sort of question, you don't need permission to perform a song, in the public domain or otherwise. If you record it and distribute that recording (whether for profit or not), simply contact the appropriate agency in whatever country you live in, and pay whatever small fee they require. For public performance, any payment due will be covered as part of a general levy paid by the venue concerned, not the performer.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Origins: Lagan Love
From: GUEST,M.C.
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 10:17 AM

Thank you very much to 'Nerd' and 'Malcolm Douglas' for taking the time to reply to my query. I'm still interested if anyone else has something to say on the topic, so will check this page again from time to time.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Origins: Lagan Love
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 11:26 AM

Re "ornamentation" in this song; I haven't heard Redpath's recording, but notice in many others that the "turn" in the second line of verse (or, the music corresponding to this part) on the word "twilight" for instance is usually done in a "classical" manner, that is, after the stress or beat; "the twiLI-i-i-i-i-ight's gleam" &c. However, I think it was Mary O'Hara who does it in what seems a much more "traditional" manner, or perhaps John McCormack: "the
twili-i-i-i-i-IGHT's gleam" &c., with the flutter of short notes preceding the stress. Any views? (apart from the fact that the way I've indicated the difference is rather crude).


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Origins: Lagan Love
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 01:59 PM

Way back there, Susan-Marie asked:

(didn't old English use f's for s's and vice versa?)

You're talking about the "medial s", which is comes out of printing with separate-letter hand-set type. The "medial s" is a form of s which was only used in the middle of a word, so would not be used for "soot". "Medial" like in "median", "medium" etc.--that is, "in the middle".

And not "vice versa"--that is, s for f--either. The medial s sort of looks like a form of f, but if you look closely you will see that it looks like an italic f, even when used with non-italic typefaces, and that it lacks the cross-bar of an f.

Dave Oesterreich


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Origins: Lagan Love
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 02:17 PM

That might sometimes be so, Uncle; but certainly not always, at least in eighteenth-century typography. I know for certain that the kind of "f"-seeming letter you describe - lacking half of the crossbar, incidentally - would be used at the beginning of a word where we would now use an "s", as long as it were lower-case. It wouldn't be used at the END of a word, where common "s" would be used, and if there were two "f" letters in the middle of a word ("dissent", for instance) only the first of these gets the long shape; thus, "difsent". Sometimes, this practice can provide rather interesting results to a modern reader, and I find it impossible to think that contemporary ones didn't spot something like this, which appears in one of Allan Ramsay's Epistles to William Hamilton of Gilbertfield:

"Of Poetry, the hale quintessence
Thou hast suck'd up, left nae excressence...."

And here's me only looking in to see had anyone made any comment on "ornamentation".


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Origins: Lagan Love
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 02:45 PM

(And only now realised I hadn't signed in half-an-hour back)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Origins: Lagan Love
From: GUEST,California
Date: 20 Jun 11 - 10:36 PM

Guys I love you all! Hey I'm reading this in California more than 10 years after some of you wrote, and the clues and discussion are great. I've wondered forever what the words meant. The only thing I can contribute is: Frank Patterson. I know the song from his recording on an album I got in the 1980s. My record player doesn't work anymore and youtube doesn't have it, but I still hear him singing it in my head and no other version I can find now tops it. Frank Patterson Frank Patterson Frank Patterson! Roisin O'Reilly's version on youtube is very good too, and I wish someone would post Jean Redpath's so I could hear it. Also, I would never have guessed to go looking for a sister song called Quiet Joys of Brotherhood, but Sandy Denny's version on youtube is wonderful to find, thanks. And, Unchained Melody? Wouldn't have thought of that either, but I guess you're kinda right. An anthem of the heart.

Special thanks to:
26 Jul 98 - 11:24 PM Moira Cameron - door ring / keyhole
16 Sep 99 - 07:44 AM John Moulden - great info
28 Feb 08 - 02:17 PM Guest - making me laugh


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Origins: Lagan Love
From: GUEST,Chris
Date: 22 Nov 16 - 03:59 AM

Doreen=keyhole
Lennanshee is a fairy lover of humans = Leanan sidhe
Is in Belfast was sung to the ancient tune the Belfast maid


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate
  Share Thread:
More...

Reply to Thread
Subject:  Help
From:
Preview   Automatic Linebreaks   Make a link ("blue clicky")


Mudcat time: 15 October 5:10 PM EDT

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 1998 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation, Inc. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.