BS: Perversion of U.S. Constitution & Values

Subject: BS: Perversion of U.S. Constitution & Values
From: outfidel
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 11:32 AM

"We, the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts - not to overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow men who pervert the Constitution." — Abraham Lincoln

Our Soldiers' Prayer

Subject: RE: BS: Perversion of U.S. Constitution & Values
From: TIA
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 11:35 AM

Great quote. We've been remiss in not crediting Lincoln on the signs that paraphrase him by saying

"Regime Change Begins At Home"

Subject: RE: BS: Perversion of U.S. Constitution & Values
From: JedMarum
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 11:48 AM

The greater majority of Americans, by far - favors this president and the actions of the coalition his administration has assembled. The congress voted unanimous support for the president and the current actions - they also voted nearly total support for his taking these actions last Fall, as the final diplomatic efforts began in earnest - and we began taking the final steps to resolve the Iraqi matters.

So our population in signifcant majority support the president and his military actions, our congress who represent the American population support the president and his actions ... where is the "Perversion of U.S. Constitution & Values?"

I understand a desire on the part of those who disagree with the president and policies to change the minds of other Americans. I expect to see those people continue to press their case - but the notion that what we are currently experiencing as a nation is somehow unconstitutioal or non-democratic is ludicrous.

Subject: RE: BS: Perversion of U.S. Constitution & Values
From: DougR
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 11:55 AM

Hear, hear, Jed. Right on the mark.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Perversion of U.S. Constitution & Values
From: outfidel
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 11:56 AM

"So our population in signifcant majority support the president and his military actions, our congress who represent the American population support the president and his actions"

-- in matters of war alone, the same thing happened in 1964 (bombing of North Vietnam following Gulf of Tonkin), 1898 (Spanish-American War, "remember the Maine!", and the invasion of Cuba), and 1848 (invasion of Mexico in the Mexican-American War)
-- in domestic matters, you had popular and Congressional support for prohibition, denying women the right to vote, Jim Crow laws & slavery
-- conclusion: at certain moments in history, the will of the people and the will of Congress does not always coincide with our nation's highest principles, as expressed in the Constitution, the Declaration of Independence, and the Bill of Rights.

BTW, Lincoln also said this, about another moment in U.S. history: "Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation we began by declaring that 'all men are created equal.' When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read 'all men are created equal, except Negroes and foreigners and Catholics.' When it comes to this, I shall prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretense of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy hypocrisy."

Subject: RE: BS: Perversion of U.S. Constitution & Values
From: Troll
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 11:56 AM

Jed, logic has no place in this. Shame on you!!

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Perversion of U.S. Constitution & Values
From: outfidel
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 11:57 AM

check that: instead of "Bill of Rights", insert "Gettysburg Address". Bill of Rights are part of the Constitution, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Perversion of U.S. Constitution & Values
From: JedMarum
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 12:00 PM

outfidel - thanks for your quotes of wisdom from one America's most controversial Republicans. He is one of my all-time heroes.

Subject: RE: BS: Perversion of U.S. Constitution & Values
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 12:00 PM

the most unconstitutional part of all of this, i think, is the abdication of responsibility by congress in failing to declare war. it is a right reserved only to congress. i don't believe they should pass that power to the executive branch. in fact, they do not have the right to do that, any more than the supreme court should take a case they don't want to decide and hand it to the executive branch to decide. even if they voted to do that 9 to 0, it would be an abdication of their constitutrional duty. there is plenty of literature detailing why the founders felt that the ability to declare war should not rest with one individual, the president, but rather should be decided by the represenative body of the people, the congress.

Subject: RE: BS: Perversion of U.S. Constitution & Values
From: JedMarum
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 12:06 PM

guest - you don;t have a leg to stand on with this arguement. Congress did vote to declare "military action" - twice, in this instance, with near unanimity.

Subject: RE: BS: Perversion of U.S. Constitution & Values
From: DougR
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 12:07 PM

Guest: you certainly have a right to your opinion, but I suspect that some pretty high-powered experts in the field of law have reviewed the subjects you discuss. If there was one iota of law-breaking involved, they would have jumped on it like flies on you know what.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Perversion of U.S. Constitution & Values
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 12:16 PM

congress voted to allow the president to decide the best course of action including the use of military force. that's not the same thing as declaring war on a soverign nation which is the course of action we are involved in without the express declaration of same from our congress. and rather than relying on unamed experts for my opinions i choose to read the constitution and form my own ideas.

Subject: RE: BS: Perversion of U.S. Constitution & Values
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 01:40 PM

DougR-A suit is being brought alleging that such abdication of war-making power is unconstitutional.

Jed-The question is whether it is legal to say A) "the President can go fight when he wants to" and B) "we don't need to declare war in order to fight." Both of those seem to be breaches of the Constitution.

Subject: RE: BS: Perversion of U.S. Constitution & Values
From: JedMarum
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 02:20 PM

... and so virtually all of congress is guilty of this supposed transgression?

Subject: RE: BS: Perversion of U.S. Constitution & Values
From: MMario
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 02:22 PM

I thought this had all gone through the court cases several presidential terms ago? but the US hasn't declared war since WWII - yet our troops have been in combat in other countries virtually continously since then.

Subject: RE: BS: Perversion of U.S. Constitution & Values
From: Amos
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 02:23 PM

As for other facets of Constitutional erosion, just go down the list of amendments in the Bill of Rights: rights reserved to the States usurped, freedom of speech diluted or corrupted, laws undermining the separation of church and state, and diminishing the right of free assembly, not to mention compromises of the irghts of citizens to be secure in their persons and effects, instances of cruel and unusual punishment and the suspension of habeus corpus under conditions of "urgent necessity".

A

Subject: RE: BS: Perversion of U.S. Constitution & Values
From: outfidel
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 02:52 PM

The U.S. Patriot Acts I and II are incompatible with the U.S. Constitution.

John Aschcroft is a traitor!

Subject: RE: BS: Perversion of U.S. Constitution & Values
From: DonMeixner
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 03:20 PM

Outfidel,


actually ".....all Democrats are traitors......, vaguelly out of context from Rush Limbaugh"

and

"John Ascroft is the Anti-Christ" directly quoyed from Don Meixner.

Don Meixner

Subject: RE: BS: Perversion of U.S. Constitution & Values
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 03:27 PM

Don, you're my hero!!

outfidel, thanks for those links!

Subject: RE: BS: Perversion of U.S. Constitution & Values
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 03:37 PM

I do not agree that the president has the overwhelming support of the American people. The polls showed (non-unanimous) support IF approved by the UN.

Even if he did have overwhelming popular support, popular opinion has nothing to do with the Constitution. It's my understanding that the constitution was written to protect us from the whims of popular opinion and/or our leaders (i.e. we can't have a referendum to take away women's right to vote).

Yes, Mr. Marum, the entire congress is guilty of this transgression. When a blank check was handed to Bush in November, we became a dictatorship with a congress there just for show.

Why are we not seeing a greater outcry and the flood of lawsuits that DougR correctly predicts? Easy - because the debate has been cast as "if you oppose this war as unconstitutional, you oppose our brave men and women in uniform." Many with friends, relatives or simply fellow humans in the military do not want to appear to undermine our troops. Get 'em home, then watch for DougR's prediction to come true.

I'm no Founding Fathers scholar. Can anyone give me a reference to any writings in which they discussed (and approved of) anything of the sort that is now being called "preemption"? Did they ever discuss the possibilty of one branch of government taking over another branch's duties (even temporarily)? Did they ever discuss the need for the U.S. to intervene in another country's affairs within the other country's borders (even if it was a particularly despicable country)?

These are not rhetorical questions...I'm truly asking. It's possible that the answers could convince me that the Constitution and our founding principles are not being perverted.

Subject: RE: BS: Perversion of U.S. Constitution & Values
From: DougR
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 04:17 PM

Guest: I think it was Forum Lurker who informed us some law suits are pending. I certainly hope he is right because it would be good to put this issue at rest one way or the other.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Perversion of U.S. Constitution & Values
From: TIA
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 04:57 PM

Oops, guest at 3:37 was moi sans cookie. Here's a link to info. on one pending lawsuit:

lawsuit brought by military families and congresspeople

Subject: RE: BS: Perversion of U.S. Constitution & Values
From: DonMeixner
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 06:01 PM

Whether or not the war was legally advanced or not will always be questioned. Was Desert Storm a legally declared war and is this just a continuance of a conflict predicated on the notion that Saddam didn't live up to the cease fire will always be questioned. And since war is upon us why waste the time wondering.

I do not support the President or most of his cabinet. I don't support the broad notion of this war. I think this is what Bush could fix since he couldn't fix the economy. That Saddam and his sons don't deserve the air they breathe is just good luck for Bush in my opinion. The world will be less a few tyrants and that will be a net gain for all. The dis service to all is from the many talking heads who said this will be a cake walk.

I don't doubt our winning but remember when The GAR said we'll roll through them southern boys and send them packing and headed of to BUll Run with picnic lunches.

Don't for get that the US Army thought that Cba and the Phillipines were just a bunch of peons when they remembered the Maine. The US weapon of choice at the beginning of the war was the 45-70 Trap Door Springfield single shot Allyn conversion rifle and the the Peons were using bolt action repeaters from Mannlicher Arms. It was sometime before the infantry got their 30-40 Kraigs and won the war.

The same was said of WWI and WWII and Korea and Viet Nam. Wars marketed by a government military machine to families and kids.
Russia learned this well too in Afghanistan which is a similar climate and geography just a few miles away from Iraq.

The US is not a tyranny tho' some will disagree and that is their right. We will rebuild what we wreck and it will be better built than it was. But the cost will be higher than we were sold and told to believe.

I won't support this President or his policy here but I will support my boys friend Justin and Trevor and I'll send them letters wishing them well. I'll support my drummers son Jared as he watches the border in Kuwait. And when they all come home well and whole I'll have a picnic for them and thank them for their duty to service as they saw it. But I won't support this President.

Don Meixner

Subject: RE: BS: Perversion of U.S. Constitution & Values
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 06:30 PM

Well danged! This entire mess is what one would expect when a rather shallow man surrounds himself with a lot of men and women who have spent their lives studing and working in oil and arms. Folks like the *dynamic dou of arms and US imperialism* in Richard Perle and Paul Wolfowitz. Mix in the rest of the cast, Condi Rice (Oil), Dich Cheney (Oil) and Don Rumsfelf (arms) and 9-11 and the game is over in the first inning.

What I find intereesting is that while the pro-Bushies gleefully watch the shreading of the 1st, 4th and 5th Ammendments because they are being used against the other side (who BTW arr also tax paying Americans) and don't realize that in doing so they are also shreading the very things that they have blamed those on the other side for trying to do.

Remember the old Right-wing mantra that the government was too intrusive? Yeah, those were the good old days. Now, the governemnt cannot be intrusive enough for these folks. Talk about flip-flopping. They're like a fresh caught small mouth in the bottom of the canoe. Complete and total (and very obvious) case of hipocrisy! Nothing short!

But they merrily parrot the PR crap about how we're gonna bring freedom to the Iragis while sitting by cheering as the Bush/Ashcroft?Ridge machine disassmebles freedom at home.

Real heros of democracy!

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Perversion of U.S. Constitution & Values
From: outfidel
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 09:37 PM

Don -

Wise & kinds words. Thanks!

To me, 9/11/01 felt like our generation's Pearl Harbor. Now the historical precedence that we're re-living feels more like the Gulf of Tonkin '64, the Spanish-American War of 1898, and the Mexican-American War of 1848 -- shameful times when my country used a morally suspect rationale to invade another country and cause great suffering.

I hold the utmost respect for Americans who serve in the military -- people like my cousin, who graduated from West Point and served with distinction as a tank commander in the first Gulf War. And people like my college roommate, who was Air Force ROTC and continues to serve our country with distinction and pride. I wish safety and speedy return home for all our soldiers today.

I support 100% the effort to capture Osama Bin Laden and dismantle his terrorist network. He has attacked us more than once, and he clearly possesses both the will and the capabilities to attack us again.

Unfortunately, I think the 200,000+ troops serving today in the Persian Gulf area, and the hundreds of thousands of soldiers who support them back home, are being asked to perform a duty that is unworthy of them. In this war, unlike the rhetoric being fed by our government, our men and women in uniform are putting their lives on the line *not* to make our homes safer. Our homes and our families are *not* threatened today by Saddam Hussein. When President Bush claimed that our country has been living "at the mercy of an outlaw regime that threatens the peace with weapons of mass murder", I had to wonder where the evidence is that points to Hussein. It certainly hasn't been presented so far.

Our country's sons and daughters are being used as a political tool because we were unwilling or unable to use diplomacy to live peacefully with other nations. They are victims in this madness as much as the Iraqi civilians.

I have no love for Saddam Hussein -- he is a tyrant and a butcher. But I pray for the Iraqi civilians, especially the poor and the children, who will bear the worst of our aggression. More than 46,000 Iraqi children died between January and August 1991 as a result of the war and its aftermath. There will be many more casualties in this war, since more of it will be fought on the ground in hand-to-hand street fighting. Those children are someone's sons and daughters, too.

May God have mercy on what we are doing in Iraq.

"Woe unto the world because of offenses; for it must needs be that offenses come, but woe to that man by whom the offense cometh." -- Matthew 18:7 (quoted by Lincoln in his Second Inaugural)

Subject: RE: BS: Perversion of U.S. Constitution & Values
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 10:25 PM

outfidel:

Matthew alsos said "Nothins hidden that one day won't be found, no secret kept that won't one day be common knowledge" and he was talking about the crooks who have stolen our government and broken the dreams and hopes of som many of the world's inhabitants.

And as for Bush and his henchmen, Jesus also warned us about those who would have us take up arms against others. In Luke, Jesus tells us "Woe unto you, also, lawyers! For ye lade men withn burden grievuos to be born and ye yourselves touch not the burden with one of you fingers" (Luke 12:46) then in reminds us thru Mark to "take heed lest any man deceive you (Mark 14:5).

Yeah, the roadmap is here. Jesus has told us what we are supposed to do.

Yet, we have folks who have highjacked our country who are in the name of Christianity, furthering the evil of Satan. Jesus warned us of these folks thru Matthew {"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For ye are like white sepulchures, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead man's bones, and of all uncleaness. Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto man but within we are full of hypocrisy and iniqutiy. ( Amtthew 42: 27-28)

And these folks who ahve highjacked the US governemnt fit Jesus's warning's to the tee.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Perversion of U.S. Constitution & Values
From: DougR
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 01:08 AM

TIA: Thanks for posting that blue clicky. I can't help but wonder if the Richardsons wouldn't be filing the same lawsuit even if the congress had declared war. When their son joined the Marines, I'm certain he wasn't guaranteed that someday he wouldn't be called on to fight for his country. Even the Marines don't give a free ride.

It will be interesting to see what happens with the lawsuit though.

I'm sure, though, that if the court doesn't rule that it was illegal, Bobert and Company will cry, RIGGED, RIGGED RIGGED!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Perversion of U.S. Constitution & Values
From: outfidel
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 10:24 AM

FWIW, I don't think this is a religious war -- we're not trying to impose Christianity on the Islamic world. But does feel a lot like the world that Samuel Huntington described 10 years ago, in "The Clash of Civilization".

I also don't think this war is primarily for oil. "No blood for oil" is a nice slogan, but my gut tells me that that's not the primary reason for the invasion. If it were, we would be invading Venezuela and its leftist government right now, not Iraq.

I think the war is 1) an overreaction/mistaken reaction to 9/11, and 2) a war of political expediency to re-elect Bush.

Just my $.02 ...

Subject: RE: BS: Perversion of U.S. Constitution & Values
From: Amos
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 10:54 AM

It is also a possible keystone to a long-term stabilization of the Middle East, if it succeeds as envisioned; the reorganization of Iraq could lead to a balancing of the tensions between Palestine and Israel, and if so, would save untold lives over the next few decades.

I wouldn't mind seeing that rise up out of the ashes. But I think its a long shot, indeed.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Perversion of U.S. Constitution & Values
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 11:33 AM

the reorganization of Iraq could lead to a balancing of the tensions between Palestine and Israel

How would it do that, Amos?

Subject: RE: BS: Perversion of U.S. Constitution & Values
From: outfidel
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 11:33 AM

A -

Good point. A stabilized Middle East would be a great outcome out of (what I believe is) an unjust U.S. war.

Bush and Powell have continued to call for an independent Palestinian state. This would go a long way to earning the good will of moderates in the Arab world and bringing peace to the region.

Subject: RE: BS: Perversion of U.S. Constitution & Values
From: JedMarum
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 12:08 PM

As slavery was the root cause of the US civil war, the existence of Isreal is the root cause of the war on terrorism. The Arab and Moslem world surrounding Israel have never accepted its right to exist and have felt powerless to defeat it - even though they've treid fro many years. Israel's powerful allies of the western world have been perhaps the underlying reason that Israel has remained in existence despite its neighbor's hatred. The fundamental Moslem communities see the destruction of Israel as a religious calling, worthy of complete personal sacrifice - Arab moderates have come around to accepting Israel, if they must - but have to be careful of the very powerful and very vitriolic Israel haters within their countries. Moderate Arabs face certain civil war if they do not at least allow the fundamentalists some ground ...

The current Iraq conflict and the war againts terrorism is the opening stages of the war to resolve Israel's right to exist. 50+ years of negotiations and agreements have not solved the matter - 150+ of discussions will not resolve the issue. Israel's enemies will be crushed or it will perish.

The US chose sides in this arguement long ago. The hate of the opposing side has allowed some of the very nastiest of individuals and regimes come to power. We are fighting these powers today.

Subject: RE: BS: Supremes refuse ACLU case on Patriot Act
From: katlaughing
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 12:16 PM

In the meantime, the Supreme Court turned down a case on the trampling of our right to privacy from spying by Rumsfeld and his ilk with their so-called Patriot Act: click

Subject: RE: BS: Perversion of U.S. Constitution & Values
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 12:19 PM

Thanks Jed. But I don't see how that's going to help the situation within Israel/Palestine itself.

Subject: RE: BS: Perversion of U.S. Constitution & Values
From: Amos
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 12:51 PM

Carol:

It is not a statement of fact or a precise clear set of steps; it is an optimistic hope that if Iraq is stabillized it will provide a basis from which to resolve the issue of Palestinian nationality, which in turn will relieve a good portion of the destructive pressure on Israel. I don't have a road map. Just a hope.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Perversion of U.S. Constitution & Values
From: TIA
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 12:53 PM

CarolC - Don't mean to speak for Jed Marum (with whom I believe I agree as to the root cause of terrorism), but I think his point was that there is no help for the Israel/Palestine situation. One party or the other will be destroyed before they accpet peace with each other.

So, in that sense, the war in Iraq is irrelevant to solving Israel/Palestine. Unless it's the first step in destroying/pacifying the whole Arab world (yikes, they can't possibly intend that can they?)

Subject: RE: BS: Perversion of U.S. Constitution & Values
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 01:01 PM

One party or the other will be destroyed before they accpet peace with each other.

I don't entirely agree with this statement, but I'll leave the details for another thread perhaps.

Unless it's the first step in destroying/pacifying the whole Arab world (yikes, they can't possibly intend that can they?)

Yikes indeed, TIA.

Subject: RE: BS: Perversion of U.S. Constitution & Values
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 01:37 PM

It might not be necessary to destroy the extremists on either side, but I don't see any feasible way to create peace while they retain power. The "one party or another" need only include the militant extremists, though; the majority of Palestinians and Israelis should be able to tolerate each other in time, if no one incites them.

Subject: RE: BS: Perversion of U.S. Constitution & Values
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 01:40 PM

Well said, Forum Lurker.

Subject: RE: BS: Perversion of U.S. Constitution & Values
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 01:43 PM

the majority of Palestinians and Israelis should be able to tolerate each ... if no one incites them.

Indeed. Things were going along fairly well and progress was being made until that thug Sharon came to power and just HAD to stick his finger in the Palestinians' eye.

Subject: RE: BS: Perversion of U.S. Constitution & Values
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 01:46 PM

Actually, Greg F, things started going bad when Netanyahu took power and ditched the Oslo process. But your point about Sharon is a good one.

Subject: RE: BS: Perversion of U.S. Constitution & Values
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 02:08 PM

I don't normally make a habit of defending Sharon; his policy overall is idiotic, bloody-minded, and the cause of increased suffering in Israel and Palestine. However, I still don't see how visiting the Temple Mount during the High Holy Days, even with a considerable military contingent, can be seen as a threat or insult (I assume that's what Greg F. was talking about). He's done plenty of stupid, petty, and downright immoral things, but that doesn't strike me as one of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Perversion of U.S. Constitution & Values
From: TIA
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 03:49 PM

It was a threat and an insult because, if I remember correctly, he had been asked rather politely to not go there, and rather emphatically to not take armed policemen there - both of which he did with the clear intention of poking Palestinians in the eye.

Subject: RE: BS: Perversion of U.S. Constitution & Values
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 04:47 PM

Cartoon

Subject: RE: BS: Perversion of U.S. Constitution & Values
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 04:55 PM

*G*

I think that guy in the hat is DougR ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Perversion of U.S. Constitution & Values
From: Amos
Date: 01 May 03 - 07:53 PM

For those of you who wonder whether Consittutional rights are actually being eroded or not, let me offer you this practical example.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Perversion of U.S. Constitution & Values
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest
Date: 01 May 03 - 09:17 PM

One of the better pieces I've come across lately

Subject: RE: BS: Perversion of U.S. Constitution & Values
From: Barry Finn
Date: 01 May 03 - 11:42 PM

One of the tools Hitler used to come into power was convincing the German people that they were under threat from outside enemies (sound familar). Citzens that did not fit into certain profiles fell into the hands of the SS, Hitler's Youth. These groups had the power (among others) to do as they pleased without a whisper of unpatriotic (fear, sounding a little more like home?) protest. Are we now going to subject our own citzens to the same treatment because of their orgins. What happens when one kids brings a nice "different" person home & says we got married & your grandchild has Asian blood (red just like evey one elses). I guess every one who feels that what's happening is ok because, hey we're at war or our Government says its ok by their actions & they must be right (didn't the slogan "might is right" die at the round table?) or we need to feel safe (hell I'd like to feel like God once in a while but). WWII we intered Japanese Americans Citzens for reasons of, what? When we look back on that dim chapter does anyone feel that that was ok. If so does it mean that what we did to Native Anericans was ok because it was in our best interests just like slavery. Where & when will it stop? When we all fall under the same umbrella, the same laws, belive in the same God (become Christian?), talk & look like every one else in the world, rae governed by the same few who rule in secercy from a distance & without the legal right? This is a government that uses any opportunistic moment to shoot from the hip & "don't worry we can work on cleaning up this mess tomorrow". The terrorist of 9/11 sure won out hands down, no question. We are becoming them if we're not already. Many countries of the world now fears us, consider us to be the most dangerous threat & to mankind. It all starts at home, if we can conquer ourselve first than we can conquer the rest after. Benjamin Franklin stated some to the effect of "those that would give up their freedom for security deserve neither". True today as it was then. What's the count of 'Oil Personal' within reach of the president? What's the count of 'Government Personal' (present & former) that are tied into the Private industries that are rebuilding Iraq? How many of these people are shaping our country & future & making damn sure that they'll be no why to confront them about it? Support our troops? Our government is killing them for profit. The illegal taking of the presidency, this illegal war, the illegal erosion us of our rights, the deliberate & illegal violation of the UN, the illegal & flagrant violations of human rights & of the Geneva Convention all tell the world that "We wanted, we saw, we came & we took, we killed & we conquered". Anyone who thinks we had a terrorist problem before wait & watch you don't think we've become them? Look out world here we come.    Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Perversion of U.S. Constitution & Values
From: Amos
Date: 17 May 03 - 07:22 PM

Thank God for the ACLU:

New ACLU Report Specifies Questions Needing Answers
About Total Information Awareness Cyber-Surveillance System
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Friday, May 16, 2003
Contact: Gabe Rottman
[phone]
WASHINGTON - In anticipation of the impending deadline for the Pentagon's
required report to Congress on its Total Information Awareness (TIA)
super-surveillance system, the American Civil Liberties Union today
released its own report posing a series of questions that need to be
answered before Congress can make an informed decision on whether to
continue funding the hi-tech spy program.
"The Pentagon's report will not be complete unless it comes completely
clean about the capabilities, effectiveness, potential for misuse, and
impact on privacy that this program would have," said Barry Steinhardt,
Director of the ACLU's Technology and Liberty Program, which authored the
report. "We don't see how this massive data-mining system could even
work. Government boondoggles don't make us safer."
The release of the ACLU's document comes shortly before the Department of
Defense is required to submit a report to Congress mandated three months
ago by legislation, introduced by Sen. Ron Wyden (D-OR) and passed
unanimously as an amendment to an omnibus spending bill, which stopped
development of the system unless the Pentagon provided lawmakers a report
disclosing specific details about how TIA would be used.
The main points that the ACLU report contends the Pentagon must address
include:
*How Americans can remain free when their every transaction is opened up to
potential government scrutiny;
*How the system will be effective in the face of a false positive rate that
even under the most optimistic assumptions will reach crippling levels, and
other problems;
*The TIA's technological capabilities, including whether it could work with
one giant, centralized database, and whether there would be any limit to
the number of databases to which it could connect;
*Whether the system will be able to do true data-mining, or only more
limited "query-based" searches;
*Why it makes a difference, as the government has been suggesting, that the
TIA database would be distributed rather than centralized;
*How the bedrock American principle of "individualized suspicion" will be
maintained in the face of a system designed to guess about who might be a
suspect; and,
*How TIA is likely to evolve over time given the well-established
historical tendency for such programs to expand once they are established.
"Americans and their representatives in Congress deserve to know just what
it is they're signing up for if they decide to let this program go
forward," said Jay Stanley, Communications Director of the Technology and
Liberty Program.
The transactional data that the Pentagon itself acknowledged planning to
mine includes financial, travel, education, and housing records, as well as
medical histories and "communications." Regardless of the system's
potential effectiveness in catching terrorists, which is disputed by the
ACLU and - significantly - many technical experts, the prevailing public
concern is that TIA, as initially envisioned would undoubtedly be, as
conservative columnist William Safire called it, a "super-snoop's dream."
The ACLU's report on the TIA program can be found at:
this site. (http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/SafeandFree.cfm?ID=12650&c=206)

A

Subject: RE: BS: Perversion of U.S. Constitution & Values
From: Amos
Date: 20 Jun 03 - 08:52 AM

WASHINGTON - The American Civil Liberties Union today told a committee of
outside advisors on the Pentagon's Total Information Awareness surveillance
system that the program should be shut down and said that recent
alterations of the spy program's public profile, such as changing its name
to "Terrorism Information Awareness," are little more than cosmetic.

"The Pentagon's recent push to tone down the Orwellian overtones of this
highly troubling program is nothing but spin," said Jay Stanley,
Communications Director for the ACLU Technology and Liberty Project, who
testified today. "Don't be fooled - this program would dramatically
undercut our privacy and civil liberties. We are confident that the
members of this committee will reach the same conclusion."

Advocates ranging in political persuasion from the Eagle Forum and the
American Conservative Union to the ACLU have roundly criticized the system,
which is intended to allow federal agencies to divine terrorism before it
happens by mining the electronic records of Americans' credit card
purchases, medical, educational and financial transactions, travel
itineraries and other daily behavior.

The advisory board in question was created by the Pentagon earlier this
year in response to growing concern among advocacy groups and the general
public that the Total Information Awareness system would sweep in innocent
Americans while failing to catch actual terrorists.

Late last month, in order to comply with oversight legislation passed by
Sen. Ron Wyden (D-OR), the Pentagon released a report detailing the privacy
and civil liberties threats posed by the much-maligned system. In its own
report, released several days before the Wyden amendment's deadline, the
ACLU spelled out the plethora of ongoing concerns about the program that
must be addressed by the Department of Defense before Congress can make an
informed decision about whether to let the system go forward. Stanley
reiterated these today, asking:

·•How can Americans remain free when their every transaction is subject to
government scrutiny?
·•How the system will be effective in the face of what, by most accounts,
will be a crippling false-positive rate?
·•How the bedrock American principle of "individualized suspicion" will be
maintained in the face of a system designed to guess about who might be a
suspect?
·•How the TIA's mission might grow given the tendency for such programs to
expand once they are established?

The ACLU's testimony can be found at:

http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/SafeandFree.cfm?ID=12945&c=206

Regards,

A

Subject: RE: BS: Perversion of U.S. Constitution & Values
From: Frankham
Date: 20 Jun 03 - 02:03 PM

Who says the majority of Americans support this action? (I thought Bush didn't believe in polls.) There's always a chance of "skewtistics".

In fact, who said that Bush was the rightful president of the US?
(Rehnquist).

Amos, I'm a card carrying member of the ACLU. They are one of the few hopes that we have left.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: BS: Perversion of U.S. Constitution & Values
From: Amos
Date: 20 Jun 03 - 03:57 PM

Good on ya, Frank.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Perversion of U.S. Constitution & Values
From: Mark Clark
Date: 20 Jun 03 - 04:54 PM

I've probably made this point before but I'll make it again anyway.

We live in a country where absoutly everything is for sale. Our systems and insitutions aren't merely flawed, they seem (based on news reports) to be thoroughly corupt. Greed and coruption engulfs every level of politics and government, individual businesses large and small, entire industries such as the financial advice industry, churches, non-profit groups, the list goes on and on. Here in the corn belt trends are always a few years behind the bellweather states so we now have leaders and politicians ramping up the level of greed and corruption while regions who began earlier are beginning to send people to jail. Our guys may be slow but they can't stand to miss out.

So, given the total pervasiveness of greed and graft, why does anyone believe poll numbers? Do we think the polling companies represent a beacon of truth and ethical virtue in a vast sea of corruption? Is the New York Times the only company to just make stuff up?

I'm not talking about the ease with which polls can be weighted in advance and I'm not talking about obfuscating the math to fool the innumerate. I'm assuming that the integrity of the pollsters is for sale just like the integrity of every other segment of society. We wouldn't believe a hot stock tip from an investment broker, why would we belive anyone's self serving poll numbers?

      - Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Perversion of U.S. Constitution & Values
From: TIA
Date: 20 Jun 03 - 04:59 PM

I believe that the US motto should be changed from "In god We Trust" to "I Got Mine Jack"

Subject: RE: BS: Perversion of U.S. Constitution & Values
From: Mark Clark
Date: 20 Jun 03 - 06:01 PM

I like that one, TIA.

Years ago the great Chicago columnist, Mike Royko, wrote a column on the motto of the City of Chicago. Chicago bills itself as the "I will" city. Royko thought the motto should be changed to "Where's mine?" Maybe that would a good one to engrave on our currency and emblazon on our public buildings.

What is the Latin equivalent of "Where's mine?"

      - Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Perversion of U.S. Constitution & Values
From: Amos
Date: 20 Jun 03 - 07:31 PM

Ubi meus est?

A

Subject: RE: BS: Perversion of U.S. Constitution & Values
From: LadyJean
Date: 21 Jun 03 - 12:28 AM

As the one time minority clerk for Ward 14 district 8 of the city of Pittsburgh. I know an impressive number of Americans don't vote. They figure it's a waste of time. All politicians are crooks, etc. Guys like George W. love this kind of thinking. It keeps a lot of intelligent, progressive, people away from the polls.
Bush and his ilk love the one issue voters, especially if their issue is, essentially, a non issue, like school prayer, or gay rights. A couple of hundred years ago, we western Pennsylvanians started an armed rebellion, because we didn't like the excise tax.   It didn't work. What worked was electing Thomas Jefferson, who repealed the tax.
VOTEVOTEVOTEVOTEVOTEVOTEVOTEVOTEVOTEVOTEVOTEVOTEVOTEVOTEVOTEVOTEVOTE!!

Just as an aside, nobody can take your signature and do anything with it if you sign a petition. So, if someone asks you to help put a candidate on the ballot, sign away! It won't hurt, honest!
Oh! While it's fine to support a legitimate write in candidate, the only people who see your "funny" write-in vote are the poll workers. As your joke just made our 13 to 15 hour day a little longer, we don't appreciate the humor.

Subject: RE: BS: Perversion of U.S. Constitution & Values
From: Sawzaw
Date: 27 May 11 - 08:32 AM

Talk about flip-flopping. They're like a fresh caught small mouth in the bottom of the canoe. Complete and total (and very obvious) case of hipocrisy! Nothing short!

As a candidate for the Senate in 2003, Obama said he supported repealing or replacing the Patriot Act, branding it "shoddy and dangerous" in a response to a National Organization for Women survey of candidates.

Minutes before a midnight deadline, President Barack Obama signed into law a four-year extension of post-Sept. 11 powers to search records and conduct roving wiretaps in pursuit of terrorists.

"It's an important tool for us to continue dealing with an ongoing terrorist threat," Obama said Friday

Subject: RE: BS: Perversion of U.S. Constitution & Values
From: Donuel
Date: 27 May 11 - 10:17 PM

Check out Alex Jones protest of TSA in Texas.

Subject: RE: BS: Perversion of U.S. Constitution & Values
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 27 May 11 - 10:56 PM

Two headlines on the same paper today: "FEMA faces shortfall on funds for tornado victims"

"Obama administration approves $34 million bonus for six Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae execs."

Go figure!!!

Don't you just LOVE making excuses for such foul behavior!!??!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Perversion of U.S. Constitution & Values
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 28 May 11 - 06:50 AM

When power moves from the U.S. to the U.N., our world will be a better and safer place; or in verse - http://walkaboutsverse.webs.com/#218

Subject: RE: BS: Perversion of U.S. Constitution & Values
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 28 May 11 - 01:43 PM

We've lost our way. WW 2 was the lest honorable war.

Subject: RE: BS: Perversion of U.S. Constitution & Values
From: catspaw49
Date: 28 May 11 - 02:28 PM

I can't find honor in war......any war. But if you mean it was the last war where diplomacy was actually exhausted and war was the last resort, then I agree. It is the only war in the 20th Century that I would have backed and fought in.

Why we are in the middle east or Pakistan/Afghanistan is beyond me unless killing people is really fun...............


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Perversion of U.S. Constitution & Values
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 28 May 11 - 05:51 PM

Fuck the U.N.!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Perversion of U.S. Constitution & Values
From: kendall
Date: 28 May 11 - 07:50 PM

Ok, GfS, give us an alternative.

Subject: RE: BS: Perversion of U.S. Constitution & Values
From: Bobert
Date: 28 May 11 - 08:14 PM

She has no alternatives, Capt'n... She's just another Obama hater... Plenty of them out there... Most are sons and daughters of Citizen Councils and the Klan... Hate is hate and once people get it in their minds you won't change them... Haters love their hate...

Oh, and for the record I have posted maybe 20,000 or so times here and never once made a statement that I hated George Bush... Hated most of his policies but not the man...

If Obama found a cure for cancer GfinS would accuse him of trying to put doctors out of work... This is what pre-judge-ice and hate is all about...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Perversion of U.S. Constitution & Values
From: kendall
Date: 29 May 11 - 07:46 PM

A recent poll in the UK said Obama has an 80% approval rating.

Subject: RE: BS: Perversion of U.S. Constitution & Values
From: kendall
Date: 29 May 11 - 07:47 PM

I have a friend who is always trashing Obama but he can't tell me any specifics.

Subject: RE: BS: Perversion of U.S. Constitution & Values
From: Donuel
Date: 29 May 11 - 09:37 PM

What is perverse and necrotic to its core is that we do not have the four basic freedoms in the USA, the very freedoms we helped guarantee in Germany and Japan after WW 2

There is nothing mysterious about the foundations of a healthy and strong democracy. The basic things expected by our people of their political and economic systems are simple. They are:

Equality of opportunity for youth and for others.
Jobs for those who can work.
Security for those who need it.
The ending of special privilege for the few.
The preservation of civil liberties for all.

The enjoyment of the fruits of scientific progress in a wider and constantly rising standard of living.

These are the simple, basic things that must never be lost sight of in the turmoil and unbelievable complexity of our modern world. The inner and abiding strength of our economic and political systems is dependent upon the degree to which they fulfill these expectations.

Many subjects connected with our social economy call for immediate improvement.
As examples:

We should bring more citizens under the coverage of old-age pensions and unemployment insurance.

We should widen the opportunities for adequate medical care.

We should plan a better system by which persons deserving or needing gainful employment may obtain it.

I have called for personal sacrifice. I am assured of the willingness of almost all Americans to respond to that call.

A part of the sacrifice means the payment of more money in taxes. In my Budget Message I shall recommend that a greater portion of this great defense program be paid for from taxation than we are paying today. No person should try, or be allowed, to get rich out of this program; and the principle of tax payments in accordance with ability to pay should be constantly before our eyes to guide our legislation.

If the Congress maintains these principles, the voters, putting patriotism ahead of pocketbooks, will give you their applause.

In the future days, which we seek to make secure, we look forward to a world founded upon four essential human freedoms.

The first is freedom of speech and expression--everywhere in the world.

The second is freedom of every person to worship God in his own way--everywhere in the world.

The third is freedom from want--which, translated into world terms, means economic understandings which will secure to every nation a healthy peacetime life for its inhabitants-everywhere in the world.

The fourth is freedom from fear--which, translated into world terms, means a world-wide reduction of armaments to such a point and in such a thorough fashion that no nation will be in a position to commit an act of physical aggression against any neighbor--anywhere in the world.

That is no vision of a distant millennium. It is a definite basis for a kind of world attainable in our own time and generation. That kind of world is the very antithesis of the so-called new order of tyranny which the dictators seek to create with the crash of a bomb.

To that new order we oppose the greater conception--the moral order. A good society is able to face schemes of world domination and foreign revolutions alike without fear.

Since the beginning of our American history, we have been engaged in change -- in a perpetual peaceful revolution -- a revolution which goes on steadily, quietly adjusting itself to changing conditions--without the concentration camp or the quick-lime in the ditch. The world order which we seek is the cooperation of free countries, working together in a friendly, civilized society.

This nation has placed its destiny in the hands and heads and hearts of its millions of free men and women; and its faith in freedom under the guidance of God. Freedom means the supremacy of human rights everywhere. Our support goes to those who struggle to gain those rights or keep them. Our strength is our unity of purpose. To that high concept there can be no end save victory.

Subject: RE: BS: Perversion of U.S. Constitution & Values
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 30 May 11 - 02:52 AM

Bobert, Your post to me borders on the completeness of absurdity!....and this part; "She's just another Obama hater... Plenty of them out there... Most are sons and daughters of Citizen Councils and the Klan... Hate is hate and once people get it in their minds you won't change them... Haters love their hate...".......is so far left field, that I'm surprised you don't have someone cutting your food for you!!!..........Are their people still out there, who are that far gone??? Obama is nothing more than a press secretary, for the IMF/Fed, from where he gets his marching orders!!...and those are the salesmen, who convince all these past Bozos(corrupted administrations), which program to 'get loans for' from their 'used car lot' of bullshit 'solutions'(?)!...as long as someone can find some bullshit 'cause' to throw money at, the international bankers are in line to do business with the 'Fed',...because their money comes from the interest on the loans!....NOT RESULTS, and they just love gullible shoppers!!!...who THINK they NEED a loan..for something we(you) didn't even need in the first place.....unless you're convinced you need it!!..That comes through the two parties. The right has their 'pet' causes, and the left has theirs....but nothing changes, but the amount of debt, it costs us to print worthless money!!! WHOOP-Ti_DOO..and La-DI-Dah!!................and then their are people like you..who ACTUALLY believe them!!!

ITS A BUSINESS!!! Its a business, that makes its profits, from giving the illusion, that it is AGAINST business!!!..as long as we purchase their loans..they'll fix any problem you got...including the ones they invent for you!!!!!!!!

Maybe someone can explain it better..the thought is out there, and I'm not sure you can comprehend it, being as you think their 'products' is the 'very best, money can buy'.....
Jeez!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Perversion of U.S. Constitution & Values
From: Amos
Date: 30 May 11 - 09:11 AM

GgS: Your rebuttals are torrential but extremely unclear and light on statements of fact.

Maybe you don't know HOW to think clearly. It usually involves starting with propositions that are factual and easily understood in real-world terms.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Perversion of U.S. Constitution & Values
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 30 May 11 - 11:49 AM

How's this then?:
Near all the bullshit policies, implemented, especially as of more recent, are designed, and MANUFACTURED, to be 'solved' using 'loans' for profit...not for the good of either the Britain, or America, or anyone, without going through 'funding' 'for profit', by the Machiavellian-minded, authors of the problem, in the first place!!!
This in turn, has created yet another problem, even bigger..and that is the DEBT, created by 'solving' the conjured-up, then politicized, so-called, issues, that have been blown up out of proportion.

Actually, after re-reading the post you couldn't seem to understand, it really IS quite clear. What makes it so hard to understand, is that it is describing that which is unfathomable, by the banner carrying blathering parrots....and that is too difficult for the 'banner carrying blathering parrots' to comprehend that all their 'good intentions', are actually just sales pitches!

It's really quite simple..convince simple, but well intentioned folks, who have a sense of entitlement, that they should all promote the absolute necessity of buying a new 'widget', that they can purchase 'on time' with credit. The overhead, is usually inflated, and to fund the whole nonsense, has a hidden cost of the interest on the loans!!

Now, we owe more than we produce. The globalist bankers virtually own us(for very little actual work on their part), and by 2020, it is said that 90% of our GDP will be used up, just paying for the interest alone!!!...in other words, you bought into their sales pich rhetoric, but in reality, sold out!!

I guess flashing onto all that, must seem 'life-changing' realization for most of the politicos out there, right or left!....and their brains are all fucked up, just trying to wrap around the fact, that you've been 'conned', used, and hustled...right out of your life!

Was that clearer?

GfS
Most people DO NOT run their lives that way....unless they are conned!

Subject: RE: BS: Perversion of U.S. Constitution & Values
From: Amos
Date: 30 May 11 - 12:51 PM

I don't question that you can read your own gibberish with full understanding of what you meant, dear. But your sweeping use of words like "all" makes it difficult to see what you are looking at, aside from a very wide-spectrum impressions. I think you are overstating the issue of debt per se; but I certainly agree with you that bankers are sometimes very dangerous! :D

A

Subject: RE: BS: Perversion of U.S. Constitution & Values
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 30 May 11 - 01:36 PM

Yawn

Subject: RE: BS: Perversion of U.S. Constitution & Values
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 30 May 11 - 03:18 PM

Amos: "..but I certainly agree with you that bankers are sometimes very dangerous! :D"

I guess the question, at hand, is how much of you, and/or your guaranteed freedom, is NOT for sale?

Ya' get enough of those patting themselves on the back, because the guilt dissipates in large masses, and you end up with delusional advocates, complete with great enthusiasm, but little ability to discern the truth, or admit when they've been had.

When I hear bantering, with such fervor, whether it be for social(domestic) or war or related, (foreign) affairs, I can't help wonder.....When were our military last used in actually defending our country?
But you'll note the 'patriotic 'righteousness' that the 'right' appear to work up, for themselves, to foment a sense of nationalism, to say "Let's DO IT!'.....not really unlike the 'left' when it comes to the "pity us peons, barely being able to enjoy all, civil rights? (so let's 'work it')......", mode.......all have which have been sewn into you, and played like fiddles! .....and stick someone else with the bill!(both legislatively and financially).


I'm thinking, hey, do we get to vote for the head of the IMF/Fed people?..or are they appointed without public approval?...Hmmm, sounds to me, like 'taxation without representation' ....no matter what, emotionally charged, bleeding heart program/emergency they throw at us!

But then this IS the " Perversion of U.S. Constitution & Values" thread, isn't it?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Perversion of U.S. Constitution & Values
From: Stringsinger
Date: 30 May 11 - 03:54 PM

The problem is that there are radically different interpretations in the words of the Constitution and reputable historians today recognize that this was true at the time of the Founding Father's ratification of the document.

Most of these readings are politically agenda-driven. (Very much like interpretations of the bible or the koran).

Torture was eschewed by George Washington who wouldn't have approved of waterboarding. Jefferson and Madison would not have liked the "new" reading of the Separation of Church and State by the Christian Wrong. David Barton has a very narrow view of the Constitutional constraints as was illustrated well by Beeman on Jon Stewart's program.

The "War Powers Act" was inherent in the Constitution and has been violated by Obama. Bush did seek and receive Congressional authority to invade Iraq.

Congress has done many egregious things in recent times such as the fraudulent censuring of ACORN and Move On. But these didn't violate the Constitution.
Obama did.

And now Libya. Congress was bypassed again.

The Separation of Church and State has been reinterpreted by Wrong-wing scholars who claim authority driven by their politics and religious prejudices.
They deny that it was part of the First Amendment which is a narrow and incoherent reading of that. Congress, in fact, has been pushing religion through prayer breakfasts and litmus tests for office. How many non-religious people are in government today?

"The second is freedom of every person to worship God in his own way--everywhere in the world."

Or not worship any god at all. That is also implied in the First Amendment, along with not using belief as a litmus test for office.

Kendall, Howard Zinn, at one time a bombardier in WWII, would have agreed with you. I'm with Zinn.

The problem with the UN today is that it is strong-armed by the US but not as badly as NATO.

The Constitution has been and remains a living breathing document that is interpreted by so many differently. The Founding Fathers couldn't agree on it so how can anyone today do so aside from their political bias?

Subject: RE: BS: Perversion of U.S. Constitution & Values
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 31 May 11 - 02:52 AM

Actually, 'Strings' is right about a few things on his post..and those things he cited Obama for doing, are actually impeachable offenses..He has done about everything to circumnavigate around our Constitution. Actually, he sucks!

GfS