BBC Closes Folk Show

Subject: BBC Closes Folk Show
From: Folkiedave
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 02:03 PM

After the great success of the "A Place in England" last week on BBC Radio Three you will be shocked to know that Henry Ayrton's Folk and Roots show on BBC Radios Humberside, Leeds & Sheffield and on BBC North Yorkshire & Radio York is to be axed and this will happen on Thursday, with no notice.

Letters of protest should be sent to your local BBC station manager or to:

BBC Yorkshire & Lincolnshire
9 Chapel Street
HULL
HU1 3NU

A word of warning. When a concerted letter campaign like I hope this one will be kicks off, the BBC draws up a standard response letter.

Only when a second letter to the same person is sent (and make sure that yours addresses specific issues) will it be taken seriously so to speak.

Get writing.

Dave Eyre
www.holmfirthfestival.com
www.collectorsfolk.co.uk

Subject: RE: BBC Closes Folk Show
From: Mr Red
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 02:13 PM

I can see PtheT sending a lot of letters.

Subject: RE: BBC Closes Folk Show
From: Ralphie
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 02:13 PM

Dave..
Any chance of an E mail address??
If true, this is very sad news.
Regards Ralphie

Subject: RE: BBC Closes Folk Show
From: katlaughing
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 03:16 PM

Ralphie, the website is really sllloooowwww, but if you click on this it takes you to the BBC site for "yorklincs" and, on the lower right, is a link for how to contact them, including by email. It took so long, I gave up on getting the direct link for you. Good luck!

kat

Subject: RE: BBC Closes Folk Show
From: Kernow John
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 04:31 PM

Dave

Sad to hear this.

It happened to John The Fish's folk programme on BBC Radio Cornwall.

A big protest was organised but sadly the closure went ahead.

We were promised a covering of folk music by other programmes on the station, this hasn't happened.

A letter of complaint resulted in a reply saying "It depends what you call folk music", it seems like the presenters can make up their own rules!

I wish you luck !

Regards

John

Subject: RE: BBC Closes Folk Show
From: GUEST,Peter from Essex
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 04:50 PM

Folk coverage went from BBC Essex years ago, the explanation was that BBC local radio was concentrating on speech and leaving music to the commercials. The fact that other regions have kept their folk shows up to now suggests that either somebody was telling porkies or you that guys up north have just been lucky with a station too incompitent to implement corporation policy.

Subject: RE: BBC Closes Folk Show
From: vectis
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 05:24 PM

We lost our show on BBC Southern Counties Radio yonks ago. Minstrels Galery was very popular but it got axed suddenly just like your show.

Subject: RE: BBC Closes Folk Show
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 05:46 PM

Where did you hear about this, Dave? I need to get full details as soon as possible. Last time Radio Sheffield dropped the Folk Show, we were able to force them to re-instate it (they were not pleased) but presumably this is a regional decision. We probably won't win this time, but nevertheless we can give the buggers a hard time over it.

Subject: RE: BBC Closes Folk Show
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 06:58 PM

heloo, this id very bad, this is my local flok show in the raduom a nd i lisen to it every time, i think they should keep it nbecause it is a good show, sepecially when i am at workk and bored,.anyway, whart they going yto put instead, [some shit i bet], big load of shit if you ask me] .john

Subject: RE: BBC Closes Folk Show
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 07:00 PM

heloo, i think i spelled bored wrong, anyway, this id not far fron me[ just 5 minits walk], so just tell me who it is, then i will go and smash there face in.john

Subject: RE: BBC Closes Folk Show
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 07:26 PM

We don't know yet; until Dave tells us where he got the news.

Subject: RE: BBC Closes Folk Show
From: Folkiedave
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 08:06 PM

I have emailed Malcolm off list..............to show the source.

Anyone else is entitled to the same................just do not want to post publicly on Mudcat.

You may rest assured it will be announced on Thursday's show. And the source is impeccable.

The problem is that a few years ago when you wrote to the BBC about the lack of folk music they pointed you to local radio.

Now that has gone...........

Complain and complain and complain...........and when you have finished complaining do so again.

and sorry about the lack of email addresses..........I assumed that those who wanted to could look them up........

Dave
www.collectorsfolk.co.uk
www.holmfirthfestival.com

Subject: RE: BBC Closes Folk Show
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 08:13 PM

Thanks, Dave. I'll get onto it.

Subject: RE: BBC Closes Folk Show
From: GUEST,noddy
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 04:45 AM

the BBC has lots of message boards one for Folk and Acoustic Music why not voice your feelings through that system. You do have to register before you can log a message but that is straight forward.

Subject: RE: BBC Closes Folk Show
From: The DeanMeister
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 04:53 AM

I am sad to hear of this, and will be writing to complain. I know Henry, and have listened to his show for many years. Indeed, when I first ventured into a folk club, his show was my main source of material. I would learn a new song each week, then sing it at the club. Without it I would have struggled, at the time being a non-folkie. They have removed his show from the airwaves before, but it was reinstated. With any luck we may be able to do this again. I urge anybody who listened to his show, which was broadcast on several BBC local networks all over the North of England, to write, aand write, and write until the BBC sees sense.

Good luck to Henry. Cheers, Pete.

Subject: RE: BBC Closes Folk Show
From: The DeanMeister
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 04:57 AM

I am sad to hear of this, and will be writing to complain. I know Henry, and have listened to his show for many years. Indeed, when I first ventured into a folk club, his show was my main source of material. I would learn a new song each week, then sing it at the club. Without it I would have struggled, at the time being a non-folkie. They have removed his show from the airwaves before, but it was reinstated. With any luck we may be able to do this again. I urge anybody who listened to his show, which was broadcast on several BBC local networks all over the North of England, to write, aand write, and write until the BBC sees sense.

Good luck to Henry. Cheers, Pete.

Subject: RE: BBC Closes Folk Show
From: Sir Roger de Beverley
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 05:39 AM

I agree with Pete. Henry's show (all three segments of it, not just the folk bit) are amongst the most intelligent and well researched programmes on the radio network. More dumbing down?

Rog

Subject: RE: BBC Closes Folk Show
From: GUEST,T-boy
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 07:50 AM

I shall probably get into trouble for saying this, but these days the BBC is too much up the arses of the ethnic minorities, and British folk music is seen as too exclusive.

Subject: RE: BBC Closes Folk Show
From: GUEST,Eliza Carthy
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 10:22 AM

Hi,
Just put a wee note on the Folk & Acoustic board. Henry's show is my local, would hate to see it go.
cheers
ec

Subject: RE: BBC Closes Folk Show
From: greg stephens
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 11:13 AM

Henry is a civilised witty and knowledgable man, and has kept folk music on the radio for ages. BBC's policy on folk music is unfathomable.

Subject: RE: BBC Closes Folk Show
From: Folkiedave
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 03:25 PM

Both Eliza and I have started threads on the BBC Message Boards. A few postings on there might help. Thanks everyone and spread the news as far as we can. You never know we might win one!!

Dave

Subject: RE: BBC Closes Folk Show
From: Folkiedave
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 10:11 AM

I have now received the standard BBBC reply No 1.

This is it.

HENRY AYRTON

"Henry Ayrton has shared his knowledge and passion for music with listener's across the North of England for many years - indeed, Henry's 'Real Music Show' has become something of a Thursday night institution across the region. However, 'change' is vitally important to any creative broadcasting organisation and - after much consideration - it has been decided that at BBC Radio Humberside, the time for change has come.

Consequently, the final edition of the 'Real Music Show' will be broadcast to the region on Thursday the 27th of March 2003.

BBC Radio Humberside's popular and award-winning local music showcase 'Raw Talent' moves from it's Wednesday evening slot to it's new place in the schedules - Thursday evening from 7 'till 10 pm. Additionally, it should be noted, that Raw Talent will be broadcast across the region to listeners to BBC local radio stations in Leeds, York and Sheffield.

From Wednesday the 2nd of April, on a weekly basis, listeners to BBC Radio Humberside will benefit from the 'Nightsport' regionally shared sports programme.

BBC Radio Humberside is pleased to announce that Henry can still be heard on the station - on a Sunday from 8 'till 10 pm, - when he hosts 'Henry's Swing Club', a show featuring a unique mix of music including blues, jazz and gospel."

Now I find this totally unacceptable and I will be sending a reply - which in fact his accompanying email more or less invites me to do anyway. Amongst the points I will be making is the fact that for some reason some music is retained and not others, that in effect the programme has been cancelled to make way for sport - and cancelling a programme is regarded as being "change".

Get writing,

Dave

Subject: RE: BBC Closes Folk Show
From: greg stephens
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 10:36 AM

It is wearing as well as sad, this sort of thing. BBC Radio 3 put on an English folk night, and you think, Yippee, the beeb is getting interested at last. A week later they chop Henry Ayrton, who is a national institution in my book. And I've just been wasting my time writing to the BBC congratulating them on their new approach. It makes you weep.

Subject: RE: BBC Closes Folk Show
From: The DeanMeister
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 10:38 AM

I have e-mailed Radio Humberside with my views. Can somebody tell me where the BBC message boards are that Eliza referred to?

Incidentally, looking forward to seeing you at Beverley Festival this year, Eliza.

Subject: RE: BBC Closes Folk Show
From: GUEST,John Barden
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 10:39 AM

Shouldn't we remind the BBC what their charter actually means? How much time and money do they spend on chart music? Undoubtedly there are an awful lot of people who do listen to chart music, but how many of those people are licence payers? I hope that somewhere within all the statistics that we are inundated with the BBC can answer that simple question. We should remind them that they are not a 'commercial' station and as such should cover a broad church - something which they seem less and less likely to do it would seem.

Subject: RE: BBC Closes Folk Show
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 10:45 AM

BBC local radio is separate from the national stations, but is governed, so far as I know, by the same charter. Although it's certainly worth registering protests at the Radio 2 acoustic message boards (I have):

http://www.bbc.co.uk/cgi-perl/h2/h2.cgi?state=threads&board=radio2.folkandacoustic&

...specific protests need to be addressed to the regional stations involved; and most particularly to Radio Humberside, which has been the programme maker in this case.

Subject: RE: BBC Closes Folk Show
From: greg stephens
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 11:39 AM

Have just emailed Radio Humberside. I also just rung Henry Ayrton up to check on this story, and he was very chuffed to hear that people are remembering him here on Mudcat. keep on at the beeb, everyone, Henry and Folk may yet rise again.

Subject: RE: BBC Closes Folk Show
From: BrianBelefant
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 12:07 PM

Tremendously encouraged by the support here for Henry.
I am really going to miss the jobs I do for him. Fascinated by how the word has spread since no-one knew.

the only silver lining to this cloud is that I've found mudcat cafe!

Subject: RE: BBC Closes Folk Show
From: Folkiedave
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 03:06 PM

It seems to be going well...Keep up the good work folks. I have also sent out a bunch of emails to contacts. Can I suggest people do the same?

Another good suggestion via the BBC message boards is that each local radio station has an advisory board and then there is a regional one.

That can be found here:


http://www.bbc.co.uk/england/acc/nacc.shtml

This may be effective. Anyone got experience of this?

Dave

Subject: RE: BBC Closes Folk Show
From: Watson
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 03:53 PM

BBC local radio stations each have Local Advisory Councils that have some input into programme decisions. The LAC ought to be able to help - they're just ordinary people, a new lot every couple of years, but if the management of the station - or someone more remote - has other ideas then it would be difficult to sway them.
I think that the more people that write the better, but it would probably only be effevtive for people in that area to approach the LAC.

Subject: RE: BBC Closes Folk Show
From: Watson
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 03:57 PM

PS - there's a vacancy on the Humberside LAC - go for it 9John.

Subject: RE: BBC Closes Folk Show
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 04:11 PM

I am listeningto the show now, it has been running continuously for over 16 years, lets hope it carries on.
Watson-please post details of how i can apply for the LAC vacancy, I have an interest in radio, and often post to the radio forums at Media Uk [www.mediauk.org}, its a forum for people that work in, or have an interest in the UK media, it concentrates on radio, National, regional, Local, RSL, Student and Hospital.

Subject: RE: BBC Closes Folk Show
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 04:25 PM

anyway, if they dont put it back, or put a decentfolk show on radio humberside, i am going to throw some tomatoes at their new studios.

Subject: RE: BBC Closes Folk Show
From: greg stephens
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 04:41 PM

John, surely there's enuff of u to mount a reasonable popular insurrection in Hull9. Storm the stewdios!!!

Subject: RE: BBC Closes Folk Show
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 05:11 PM

heloo greg, did you get my message with the phone number in it?

Subject: RE: BBC Closes Folk Show
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 05:35 PM

This is annoying -Henry Ayton is so well liked and respected and spends many an hour in local folk clubs including my own. He is extremely miffed by all accounts. The irony is that the BBC gave time to air the protest made by many Mudcatters at the Sloop inn in Barton which has been struck by the deadly PELs -and with the same breath closes down another outlet for folk music!

Subject: RE: BBC Closes Folk Show
From: Tyke
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 06:33 PM

The Cancellation of This regional Folk Programme is very bad news. The programme did it's very best to provide an interesting and educational Folk and Root's programme. World music always featured and the recording of Live Music on Folk programme making it fresh and up to the minute

Folk Clubs may not make a fortune but nether are they in debt for Millions like some football clubs. I don't no much about Football but what I do know is that the "Football Clubs" that will no doubt now be featured on the BBC are commercial enterprises. The amount of money that they can obtain to buy better players usually makes a team successful. There success has nothing to do with Local Football skill and Talent! The promotion to national radio coverage by a sports correspondent depends on the amount of "REALY INTERESTING COMMENTATING" that he or she can churn out.

Combining local Folk Music Programmes and providing a service to be broadcast from BBC Local Radio Stations in the North of England, Did make for a Folk Programme that had the cash to provide better coverage of Folk in our region. To say that Henry Ayrtons programme had become an institution in such away as to make it look as if it had never changed over the years is misleading to say the least. There have been many changes over the years not all of them for the best of reasons. Henry and his team have done well to produce such a fine programme. I myself have worked on the programme in the past from BBC Radio Leeds. I didn't do it for the Money! I did not do it for fame! I did put up with a lot from some of the BBC staff at Radio Leeds some however were wonderful. News and Sport got the preferential treatment then as it is doing now. The difference between NEWS and SPORT programmes, when I was at Radio Leeds was, that the recycled real-to-real tape that I had to use for my contributions to Henrys Programme was the waste from the Sports Team. The Sports department then as now had the funding for new tape whilst the Leeds end of the Folk Programme depended on off cuts and previously edited tape.

Protesting the Axing of Folk Roots Music on the Radio and in this case Local Radio may also mean writing not only to Radio Humberside but also all the other Local BBC Radio station Managers in the North of England. They may not have used the Humberside's Programming of Folk music in the past or have a Folk Roots Programme on their Stations transmitter. But they should also get letter of protest so that they realise just how many people want a quality regional programme like the Real Music Show. Then they just might divert some of the money that they have to spend on Live Music on Folk and Roots.
George Clarke

Subject: RE: BBC Closes Folk Show
From: Folkiedave
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 06:42 PM

Thanks for that reply George> I suspect that Phil White's mail box will be quite full when he gets to work in the morning.

For those who wish to contribute some more then he can be contacted at: [e-mail]

Regards,

Dave
www.holmfirthfestival.com
www.collectorsfolk.co.uk

Subject: RE: BBC Closes Folk Show
From: KJ
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 03:37 AM

We've e.mailed & written letters of protest & wish to add our voices to the many others who are totally disgusted with this action. We ought to have a mass session outside the studios & play the Athol Highlanders continuously until they go mad & give us what we want!!

Subject: RE: BBC Closes Folk Show
From: smallpiper
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 05:01 AM

Thats not such a bad idea - its in keeping with the idea of bringing folk music to the people (ha ha) and especially since there is all this stuff with pels and our sesh at the sloop. anyone up for it?

Subject: RE: BBC Closes Folk Show
From: The DeanMeister
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 05:14 AM

Count me in, KJ!!

Subject: RE: BBC Closes Folk Show
From: greg stephens
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 06:51 AM

Maybde I've missed a bit somewhere. who is the Phil White we're being asked to send emails to? What position does he hold? (sorry if it's in the thread somewhere, I did have a flip through).

Subject: RE: BBC Closes Folk Show
From: Watson
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 10:13 AM

In answer to John - there is information specifically about the Humberside LAC and an application form to download at http://www.bbc.co.uk/england/radiohumberside/accountability.shtml

Subject: RE: BBC Closes Folk Show
From: The DeanMeister
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 10:31 AM

Dear Peter


Thank you for your recent enquiry regarding changes to our Thursday night
schedule and the loss of one of Henry Ayrton's programmes.

As you may know, much of our evening programming is shared with other local
BBC Radio Stations in this region and the decision to make this change
follows a review of our shared output.

We are launching a new weekly programme aimed at developing new music in our
region and giving a showcase to unsigned bands, in order to tap into the
rich diversity of musical talent across Yorkshire and North Derbyshire,
which would normally not get a chance to flourish.

While we recognise this may not be to all our listeners' tastes, there is
still a chance to hear Henry Ayrton every Sunday between 8-10 pm and I know
Henry is looking to refresh this programme to include many of the favourites
that have previously been broadcast on Thursdays.

Thank you for taking the time to let us know your views.

Yours sincerely

Angus Moorat
Assistant editor
BBC Radio Sheffield
FM 88.6, 94.7, 104.1
MW 1035 & DAB Digital Radio

Subject: RE: BBC Closes Folk Show
From: The DeanMeister
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 10:33 AM

Reply no. 1. I did, however, E-mail Radio Humberside, York, Leeds, Two, etc.... nothing back yet! Keep hassling, folks.

Subject: RE: BBC Closes Folk Show
From: GUEST,Eliza C
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 11:11 AM

Good point Greg. Who was it that I just emailed?! Oh, and send me your email again, I lost it.
cheers,
e x

Subject: RE: BBC Closes Folk Show
From: KJ
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 01:46 PM

Just been on the Radio Humberside website, maybe I'm an old 'stick-in-the-mud' but it seems to me that 'Raw Talent' the new programme "aimed at developing new music in our region and giving a showcase to unsigned bands, in order to tap into the rich diversity of musical talent across Yorkshire and North Derbyshire,which would normally not get a chance to flourish." is primarily aimed at the younger element & rock/pop/indie oriented. On my quick perusal of unsigned bands (what no duous or solo artists) I didn't see anything folk-oriented. There is a rich diversity of talent within the folk arts of Yorkshire & North Derbyshire that is normally not given a chance to flourish. As far as I can see that was being addressed by Henry Ayrton's show. I have e.mailed Yorkshire Folk Arts as I reckon that as an organisation they should add their voice to the protest.

Subject: RE: BBC Closes Folk Show
From: Folkiedave
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 02:51 PM

Standard reply No 2 comes as follows:

" Well - Dave - I don't think I can go into specific audience research with
you but I can certainly confirm your asseretion that the changes have been a
tough call to make.

Obviously, with the programme relayed across four stations - there were four
editors views and four sets of research to consider. The BBC has a rather
democratic approach to all of it's programming - and especially regionally
shared programmes. The decison to switch Raw Talent to a new slot, for
example, was taken only after many options were considered and the opinions
of not only local managers but those of regional executives were sought.

This is purely my gut feeling but I think it's fair to say that 'folk' isn't
off the agenda forever for the local radio netwrok across Yorkshire - just
for the time being. "

I have ignored most of the grammatical and spelling errors, pointed out that I never realised people still said things like "its a tough call to make"; that democracy involved people not just BBC executives; and quoted a whole pile of stuff that shows how the folk audience is affluent - young - and hates its music being taken off air.

Simply to name drop (!!) I am having a meal tomorrow with an ex-BBC executive type and I shall pick his brains. Watch this space.

Dave

Subject: RE: BBC Closes Folk Show
From: BrianBelefant
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 03:35 PM

Someone asked who Phil White is - managing editor at BBC Radio Humberside. Incidentally they don't have the best possible record with other popular presenters on the station.

Subject: RE: BBC Closes Folk Show
From: Folkiedave
Date: 29 Mar 03 - 12:00 PM

refresh