BS: Cowards

Subject: BS: Cowards
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 02:12 PM

At Halaja, Saddam gassed to death a civilian non combatant population, 15 years ago.

Yesterday Allied Abrahams Tanks incinerated 500 Iraqis in their Pickup Trucks.


Is it now evident that we cannot tell who is right and who is not in this war... ?

Subject: RE: BS: Cowards
From: Big Mick
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 02:19 PM

You forgot to mention that the Iraqui's in the pickup trucks were armed and firing RPG's at the tanks and the humvee's. Other than that minor detail you are right.

I hate that we ended up at war, but spinning such as this, no matter which side one is on, just leads to cynicism. That leads to disconnect, and that leads to more war.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Cowards
From: Amos
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 02:42 PM

Mick places his finger on the truth again, SF. Leaving out key facts is just as false and corrosive tot he truth when you do it as when war-mongers do it.

Given that there is, in fact, a hot war in progress at this moment, with lead in the air and blood in the sand, how would you proceed?

A

Subject: RE: BS: Cowards
From: Beccy
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 02:45 PM

The Iraqis in their pickup trucks were in fact Fedayeen Saddam, n'est-ce pas? They were hardly non-combatants. These guys are fanatical, well-equipped, poorly trained fighters.

Beccy

Subject: RE: BS: Cowards
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 03:11 PM

Ok then explain why Iraqi AK47 armed women are ready to fight the US and Brits?

A quotation
'..we are not fighting for Saddam, we are fighting for our country' old guy in baber shop, Bagdad.

Subject: RE: BS: Cowards
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 03:37 PM

All wars are confused, and different sides put spins on what happens. No doubt lots of civilians will get killed, as they always do, and in some cases dead people will be said to be enemy fighters not uniform, when in fact they aren't; and the other way round as well. It always happens.

I alsi think it's pretty certain that among the people fighting the invaders will be a fair number who detest the Saddam regime, but who also object to strangers invading their country. That always happens too.

And no doubt when it's over, those Iraqis who will be cooperating with the occupation will include some pretty vile characters, with innocent blood on their hands, as well as some decent people. That always happens too.

Subject: RE: BS: Cowards
From: Amos
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 04:16 PM

Actually, they were Republican Guard units, who loomed up out of a sandstorm and went face to face with a convoy that was tasked with building a path of passage forward. From the description of one journalist the visibility was only 20 yards, and the pickups were as hampered by the sandstorm as the US vehicles, but they undertook an attack anyway and were decimated int he process. Sorry if that sounds brutal. The convoy spent twenty-four hours fending off various assaults. A brutal day.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Cowards
From: DonMeixner
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 04:30 PM

Sorefingers

My country is my country. If I were invaded by anyone, even the Brits or the Australians, even for reasons believed to be noble by the invaders I would still arm myself and head for the hills. I would be defending myself and family, not the President.

Women with guns who are defending their homes and families is just that. They aren't justifying or agreeing with Saddam's willingness to use gas on ethnic populations in his own country. Saddam's hand picked republican guard have been documented putting on captured American uniforms and then shooting their own countrymen and women. Why? Perhaps to fomment hatred would be my guess.

The causes of war are alway many and varied. People are always killed. This one is no different in many ways. And in some ways it is unique. We are truly fighting a madman who has brainwashed his population. They know what they have with Saddam and not what they have with us. Better the devil you know than the devil you don't perhaps. The best thing we can do is cotinue to treat people once captured or liberated as humane beings and allow good actions to speak louder than lies.

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Cowards
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 05:06 PM

I think Donnie and the boys might be tossing the words Fedayeen and republican gruard a little to loosly. Of course they don't want to admit that they were wrong about the regular Iraqi army surrendering at its first chance.

Subject: RE: BS: Cowards
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 06:04 PM

Basicaally it's as well to be sceptical about anything we read or think we saw on TV and so forth. Spin doctoring is one of the battlefields.

Once people are dead they can be allocated to whichever role suits the people putting out the press releases or holding the press conferences - innocent victim, undercover enemy, insurgent ally...

Subject: RE: BS: Cowards
From: Gareth
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 07:31 PM

Don -

I regret you are sailing a little close to the Wind and are in danger of being thrown on that lee shore of "My Country Right or Wrong".

Which is as equally bad as that view, " My Country is always wrong "

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Cowards
From: SINSULL
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 08:53 PM

Don,
"We are truly fighting a madman who has brainwashed his population."

That's how half the world is describing George Bush and US citizens. Ironic.

SINS

Subject: RE: BS: Cowards
From: SINSULL
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 08:55 PM

sorefingers,
"Cowards"? Shame on you. I have been against this war from the beginning but even I can see that the men and women who chose to fight for the United States are courageous people risking all for their country.
Also SINS

Subject: RE: BS: Cowards
From: DonMeixner
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 09:03 PM

Gareth,

I don't believe that is what I said. I believe I was putting myself in the shoes of another person whose view may be everybit as parochial as ours may be, only from the otherside of the rifle.

I am frequently embarrassed and ashamed of what our government does in the name of self interest. But I am never ashamed or embarrassed by the soul of our nation. I am constantly enlightened and dignified by the strength and power of American character.

It is truly a shame that American Character and American politics are lumped together when Politics knows no character and the lack of character in politicians is what divides the nation and makes us contentious at home and feared abroad.

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Cowards
From: Troll
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 09:08 PM

sorefingers, instead of sitting safe at home behind your computer, why don't you take your talk of "cowards" down to the local recruiting office, or, better still, to a bar where members of the military hang out.
Your post reminds me of the report in Pravda in the 1950's of an automobile race between a Russian "Volga" and an American "Ford". The Ford won handily.
Pravda reported that the Volga was second and the Ford next to last. It's the truth, it's just not all thertroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cowards
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 09:11 PM

If the war is now Iraqi people against an invasion then how long before volunteers from 3rd parties arive, or more sobering if the Iraqis whup ass even one time then we should be prepared to see Iranian etc offer air support.

Veitnam again?

Subject: RE: BS: Cowards
From: SINSULL
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 09:26 PM

Sobering thought, isn't it, Guest? And remember the aftermath? Rampant unemployment, wage freezes to force employers to hire more people rather than pay existing ones more, exhorbitant interest rates, steel and automobile industries down the toilet. Fortunately, we had Watergate to distract and amuse us.

Sen. Biden was on the radio this morning reviewing Bush's request for 75 BILLION dollars for the war effort in Iraq. It cost $25 BILLION to send over all the personnel and equipment. It is estimated to cost $40 BILLION to rebuild Iraq (supposedly included in this budget)when the fighting is over. This leaves $10 Billion to fight the war and bring everyone back. And this number holds true (and I use the word loosely) only if the war ends in 30 days. I have run out of toes. Can anyone explain it to me?

Biden was wondering how Mr. and Mrs. America were going to react when Bush asks for more money to rebuild hospitals and schools in Iraq while our own kids make due with a mediocre public education (Bush's estimation, not mine. Isn't this why he wants to give money to parents who can't afford private schools?) and seniors everyday go without critical medications because of the exhorbitant cost.

Subject: RE: BS: Cowards
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 09:35 PM

Iranian support for Saddam, who invaded Iran and fought a murderous war against them on behalf of America for eight years?

I'd imagine that the Iranians would prefer to sit on their hands, in the expectation that with Saddam out of the way their coreligionists Shi'ites, who are the majority in Iraq, may be able to organise for a system in Iraq more similar to that in Iran.

Subject: RE: BS: Cowards
From: Troll
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 10:10 PM

Kevin, I thought the Shi'ites were a large minority whose main strength was in the South around Basra and that the Sunni's were the majority.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Cowards
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 10:44 PM

Oh yeah...AK-47s charging Abrams tanks. That's a REAL contest.

And speaking of cowards...on the US homefront, Tom Daschle said the other day it was a pity we had to resort to war. The whore. Leader of Bush's opposition saying we 'had' to go to war. There is no difference between the Reps and Dems in Washington DC. Both want tyrannical govt on US soil, and this is just the shortest way to get there.

And they're cowards because they kill innocents in order to do it.

Subject: RE: BS: Cowards
From: GUEST,Kiwi Guest.
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 12:25 AM

Soldiers and civilians alike are people who are loved by their mother's father's and children. There is no difference. Don't try to dehumanise people. the only difference is the the people of Iraq have been invaded by a powerful bullying dishonest hostile country that wants to take control of it for it's own selfish ( big buisiness) reasons.
You would fight for your own life too. Bush and his corproate mates are the ones that need to be incinerated.

Subject: RE: BS: Cowards
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 01:05 AM

Troll-The Shiites are the majority in Iraq, but nowhere else. The Sunni are the majority and powerholders in all of the Muslim theocracies.

Subject: RE: BS: Cowards
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 07:24 AM

Sorefingers,

I haven't heard what the pep talks given to others before setting off, but the following words were given to 16 Air Assault by their Commanding Officer Lt-Col Timm Collins, he laid it out rather well:

<<"We go to liberate not to conquer. We will not fly our flags in their country. We are entering Iraq to free a people and the only flag which will be flown in that ancient land is their own. Show respect for them.

There are some who are alive at this moment who will not be alive shortly. Those who do not wish to go on that journey, we will not send. As for the others I expect you to rock their world. Wipe them out if that is what they choose. But if you are ferocious in battle remember to be magnanimous in victory.

Iraq is steeped in history. It is the site of the Garden of Eden, of the Great Flood and the birthplace of Abraham. Tread lightly there.

You will see things that no man could pay to see and you will have to go a long way to find a more decent, generous and upright people than the Iraqis. You will be embarrassed by their hospitality even though they have nothing.

Don't treat them as refugees for they are in their own country. Their children will be poor, in years to come they will know that the light of liberation in their lives was brought by you.

If there are casualties of war then remember that when they woke up and got dressed in the morning they did not plan to die this day. Allow them dignity in death. Bury them properly and mark their graves.

It is my foremost intention to bring every single one of you out alive but there may be people among us who will not see the end of this campaign. We will put them in their sleeping bags and send them back. There will be no time for sorrow.

The enemy should be in no doubt that we are his nemesis and that we are bringing about his rightful destruction. There are many regional commanders who have stains on their souls and they are stoking the fires of hell for Saddam. He and his forces will be destroyed by this coalition for what they have done. As they die they will know their deeds have brought them to this place. Show them no pity.

It is a big step to take another human life. It is not to be done lightly. I know of men who have taken life needlessly in other conflicts, I can assure you they live with the mark of Cain upon them. If someone surrenders to you then remember they have that right in international law and ensure that one day they go home to their family.

The ones who wish to fight, well, we aim to please.

If you harm the regiment or its history by over-enthusiasm in killing or in cowardice, know it is your family who will suffer. You will be shunned unless your conduct is of the highest for your deeds will follow you down through history. We will bring shame on neither our uniform or our nation.

Regarding the use by Saddam of chemical or biological weapons. It is not a question of if, it's a question of when. We know he has already devolved the decision to lower commanders, and that means he has already taken the decision himself. If we survive the first strike we will survive the attack.

As for ourselves, let's bring everyone home and leave Iraq a better place for us having been there.

Our business now is north.">>

Subject: RE: BS: Cowards
From: PeteBoom
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 08:36 AM

"The Sunni are the majority and powerholders in all of the Muslim theocracies."

When did the Sunni take over Iran?

Subject: RE: BS: Cowards
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 10:50 AM

The Sunni have always been in charge of Iran, no? The Sunni are the majority in Iran, and the majority religionists hold power, right?

Subject: RE: BS: Cowards
From: PeteBoom
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 10:55 AM

So... the Ayatollah Khomeni was Sunni, not Shi'ite?

Subject: RE: BS: Cowards
From: Bagpuss
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 10:59 AM

The Shiites are about 80% of the population in Iran, and the rulers are Shiite too. This is in marked contrast to the rest of the Arab theocracies where the Sunnis are the majority and are in power. I believe that Iraq is also unusual in that the ruling party is from Sunni stock whereas the Shiites are a majority in the population 9though not as large a majority as in Iran. Different sources put the Shiites as 50-60% and the Sunnis as 30-45%.

Bagpuss

Subject: RE: BS: Cowards
From: PeteBoom
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 11:05 AM

Bagpuss, you are correct. Forum Lurker is incorrect in this instance. Makes one wonder what other facts FL is incorrect on. (says one who learned of the differences in Islam when a group of "students" took over the US embassy in a certain country with a Shiite theocracy in place...)

Pete

Subject: RE: BS: Cowards
From: Wolfgang
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 11:16 AM

Bahrain too has a sound Shi'a majority.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Cowards
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 01:03 PM

"We go to liberate not to conquer. We will not fly our flags in their country. We are entering Iraq to free a people and the only flag which will be flown in that ancient land is their own. Show respect for them..."

What crap. The Bush / Cheney company and British Petroleum had plans to invade Iraq before Bush was even appointed 'president'. Detailed invasion plans beginning with bases in Uzbekistan and Afghanistan. Cheney's Halliburton oil will now monitor the flow of Iraqi oil to the U.N. so the tyrannization of the world can go on. All soldiers involved in the aggression against Iraq are war criminals. These ain't the old days when people can 'just follow orders'; soldiers can now see beyond their compartments, and all 'allied' forces in Iraq are part of a war crime. The Iraqis will be driven into even deeper poverty once the World Bank gets ahold of their oil revenues. All efforts to defend this invasion are false and sickening. Show respect while you bomb women and children. Total crap.

Subject: RE: BS: Cowards
From: Nerd
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 01:32 PM

One other minor correction: other Arab theocracies. Iran is not an Arab Theocracy, but a Persian one...

Subject: RE: BS: Cowards
From: Walking Eagle
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 04:56 PM

I find it quite interesting that the war budget includes an amount for building a U.S. Embassy. Powell goes on the media crowing about what the political structure will be after Hussein. A bit arrogant isn't it? And folks wonder why we are disliked?

Subject: RE: BS: Cowards
From: DougR
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 05:25 PM

Arrogant? No, just good planning.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Cowards
From: SINSULL
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 05:27 PM

But the US is standing by the decision not to fly our flag and several soldiers have been ordered to remove theirs from vehicles and flagpoles.

Subject: RE: BS: Cowards
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 05:36 PM

Shi'ites are the majority variety of Islam in Iraq, though the Sunni have been running the country. In Iran the Shi'ites are the overwhelming majority. Elsewhere the Shi'ites are a minority.

It's very east to find out these things. And it's not a bad idea to check up, before coming across all dogmatic about it, and being wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Cowards
From: Gareth
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 07:27 PM

Don,

Sorry if I misinterpreted your original post. And yes the US of A has much to recomend it, but I'll stand by my thoughts on "My Country, Right or Wrong", and " My Country always wrong"

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Cowards
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 08:02 PM

All right, guess I was wrong about Iran. Didn't have time to look it up.

Nerd- Persian descendants are only about 60% of the population of Iran, and the theocratic cultural elements are definately Arab in origin.

Subject: RE: BS: Cowards
From: Wolfgang
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 05:25 AM

Shi'ites are the majority variety of Islam in Iraq, though the Sunni have been running the country. In Iran the Shi'ites are the overwhelming majority. Elsewhere the Shi'ites are a minority.

It's very east to find out these things. And it's not a bad idea to check up, before coming across all dogmatic about it, and being wrong.

A few post before your post I had pointed out that in Bahrain too there is a Shi'a majority. As you said, it's easy to find out these things.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Cowards
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 06:01 AM

Hi there Dreaded - you have given me some of the best laughs on threads in this forum.

"What crap. The Bush / Cheney company and British Petroleum had plans to invade Iraq before Bush was even appointed 'president'. Detailed invasion plans beginning with bases in Uzbekistan and Afghanistan."

A classic!!

So you'd plan to invade Iraq through bases in Uzbekistan and Afghanistan.

Dreaded before posting such utter Shit - consult an atlas, not your rather Risk board.

Must admit though it did make me laugh - keep it up - I personally think you are hilarious.

Subject: RE: BS: Cowards
From: Nerd
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 03:03 PM

Lurker,

Well, this all depends on whether you subscribe to a racialist view of the world, which I do not. The language and culture of Iran are predominantly Persian, not Arabic. As to what percentage of the people are descended from whom, that's never as easy to determine as most people will claim.

Subject: RE: BS: Cowards
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 05:32 PM

What I meant was that in the rest of the Muslim world, the Shi'ites are a minority, except in some localised areas. Bahrein is one of those localised areas, as is South Lebanon - the difference being that Bahrein, though far smaller, is an independent state.

Subject: RE: BS: Cowards
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 07:57 PM

Ah, that's what you meant, McG! How could I have read it any other way? *G*

Subject: RE: BS: Cowards
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 08:31 PM

Syria denies sending help to Iraqis, Rumsfeldt tells them not to do it because they are helping to threaten Allies; just wondering which part of hell Mr D fell out of, what does he expect Arabs to do when their neighbor is invaded? perhaps they should lay down with target on their chests?

The rest of the Arab world IS BOUND to send help, because the citizens of Iraq are resisting the Allies with allmost as much force as they would Saddam. I think Mr G W ought to call a cease fire so that the rest of the USA - besides the Israeli lobby Rumsfled Cheney et al - can decide how to fix this criminal exercise of foreign cockup.

Subject: RE: BS: Cowards
From: mg
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 08:52 PM

isn't it horribly sexist to think that killing men is somehow more acceptable than killing women? Don't they hurt the same? Even if someone puts a scabby uniform on them and gives them a ragged blanket and a handful of dates. I honestly can't see the difference. It is all horrible. It bugs me when people single out a group for whom it is supposedly less horrible. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Cowards
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 09:03 PM

That's one variety of sexism to which I plead guilty.

Insofar as there is some kind of inhibition against killing women that in itself would be a good thing. Taking it away it wouldn't make killing men any less likely - it just might make killing women easier to get away with.

In any case, it's a very shaky inhibition indeed. Most recent wars have probably ended up killing more women than men.

Subject: RE: BS: Cowards
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 09:38 PM

Nerd-The theocratic government is a purely Muslim construct. The Persians, and the Sassanids who followed them, were secular monarchies. Many elements of Muslim theology, developed by Arabs, play an overwhelming role in Iranian culture. It is true that the official language is Farsi, but the ruling elements draw primarily from Arab Muslim sources for doctrine and law.

mary garvey-From a coldly pragmatic standpoint, it is much worse to kill women, at least those young enough to bear children, than to kill men. When you add that to the fact that most countries have very few women in their armed forces, and that women are less likely to engage in civilian insurrection or guerilla warfare, you see why, even without the direct cause of chivalric notions, it's considered worse to kill women.

Subject: RE: BS: Cowards
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 09:50 PM

Read Brezinski's book, Teribus. Uzbekistan first, then Afghanistan. Now Iraq to be used as a future base of operations. And he used a 'chessboard' as an analogy, not a Risk board. He's been on-target about all of this so far, too.

As far as amusement value, I wish I could say you give ME some laughs, but it's quite the opposite. For an apparently bright guy, you pull out some depressingly stale justifications for war. Goering and Hitler had some good ones...check them out, you twit.