BS: I've tried to stay out of this fight but

Subject: BS: I've tried to stay out of this fight but
From: annamill
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 09:40 AM

but some things just go to far. I found this on CNN.
Mural=Pain & Anger

Subject: RE: BS: I've tried to stay out of this fight but
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 09:46 AM

Are you angry and pained that an artist was allowed to express his/her presumed anti-American feelings, or that the marines are probably going to destroy a painting they find offensive?

It's the latter, for me.

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: I've tried to stay out of this fight but
From: annamill
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 09:53 AM

I'm angry and feel pain that someone has shown enough joy at our pain to put it up to share the joy.

Annamill

Subject: RE: BS: I've tried to stay out of this fight but
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 09:58 AM

Now why does that not surprise me Lepus.

Mind you, Lepus, you could look at the mural's possible impending destruction as an attempt on the part of the USMC to up-date it - you know what I mean, "Ground Zero" cleared of the rubble, caused by a cowardly and unwarrented attack, and the site ready to rise again.

Then again that probably would not be to your taste either - Tough.

Reports coming in (BBC's Jim Muir) from Northern Iraq about Iraqi's killing tribesmen in a village outside Kirkuk - Lepus probably thinks that's OK, as they are just trying to encourage the others.

Subject: RE: BS: I've tried to stay out of this fight but
From: Amos
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 10:04 AM

The mural is a celebration of first-degree premeditated murder, isn't it? I, with Anna, find this painful -- the use of art in celebration of destruction is always hard.

It's not anti-American -- the buildings don't even look American. It is interesting that the writer implies the planes are depicted as Iraqi -- what the hell is that all about?

A

Subject: RE: BS: I've tried to stay out of this fight but
From: Kim C
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 10:06 AM

How do we know the artist wasn't sharing pain instead of joy?

Subject: RE: BS: I've tried to stay out of this fight but
From: GUEST,Norton1
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 10:09 AM

You guys ever get tired of infering things? There is nothing in the article to indicate it is going to be destroyed. And I highly doubt that simply because they are Marines does not mean a damn thing about the intent.

Art is meant to invoke feelings - I suspect that after being shot at for several days feelings may be a bit up -

Christ on a crutch
Steve

Subject: RE: BS: I've tried to stay out of this fight but
From: annamill
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 10:17 AM

I think it was symbolizm, Amos. The buildings representing America and the plane representing Iraq. I'm too empathetic for all this crap. I feel I'm being shot at every day and I'm a bit up too.

All this brings back some real bad feelings.

Love, Annamill

Subject: RE: BS: I've tried to stay out of this fight but
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 10:18 AM

I can't judge the mural without seeing the whole thing. "Mural" usually implies a bigger painting than the part we see in the photo.

Anyway, is it surprising that people in Iraq, and elsewhere, celebrate our misfortune?

Subject: RE: BS: I've tried to stay out of this fight but
From: GUEST,peace
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 10:21 AM

"I feel I'm being shot at every day"

Then thank your lucky stars that you are not *actually* in danger of being shot at or bombed every day.

Peace

Subject: RE: BS: I've tried to stay out of this fight but
From: annamill
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 10:25 AM

No Jim. It's not surprising at all. Just a simple basic reaction to bad taste, that's all. Maybe some artist here should create a mural with the bombings and deaths of those who have died in Iraq. I may be wrong, but I don't think most of us would allow such a travisty.

Annamill

Subject: RE: BS: I've tried to stay out of this fight but
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 10:47 AM

Maybe it was painted before Sept. 11th...either way, if we support free speech/expression, distasteful as it is, there ya go...

kat

Subject: RE: BS: I've tried to stay out of this fight but
From: Jeri
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 11:25 AM

It could be an anti-Iraqi mural, it doesn't say anything our government isn't saying. "You did this and we're going to put a stop to this sort of terrorism." If it's supposed to be an Iraqi plane, are they claiming responsibility or are we laying blame? It's propaganda for sure, but whose?

Subject: RE: BS: I've tried to stay out of this fight but
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 11:42 AM

You just don't get it. the assholes in Iraq want us dead and that's the bottom line. Wake up!

Subject: RE: BS: I've tried to stay out of this fight but
From: Amos
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 11:56 AM

Pretty simplistic generality, mate. There are plenty of assholes on both sides of this conflict.

A

Subject: RE: BS: I've tried to stay out of this fight but
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 12:14 PM

Just had another look at the mural. The "Bootneck" standing on the right appears to be checking out the signature. Be a turn up for the books if it's Bin Laden's

Subject: RE: BS: I've tried to stay out of this fight but
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 12:59 PM

Let's see here.... Hmmmm....

Iraq: A military dictatorship whose leaders make no secret of their hatred for the U.S.   

09/11/01: A date that denotes a tragedy to most people but a victory against the hated U.S. to the Iraqi leadership.

Government sanctioned Iraqi art: Either (A) Depictions of Saddam Hussein or (B) Celebrations of Iraqi victories against the hated U.S.

I really don't see any difference between the mural and any number that were painted in Stalinist Russia. In either case, it's probable that the ideas being expressed are those of the bosses who "commissioned" the painting (possibly at gunpoint), not those of the artist. As such, it is not art. It's propaganda. I say destroy it.

Bruce

Subject: RE: BS: I've tried to stay out of this fight but
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 01:10 PM

Simple but true, Amos but our assholes are good assholes.

Teribus, FYI. That's "Leatherneck" not "Bootneck."

Subject: RE: BS: I've tried to stay out of this fight but
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 01:29 PM

And patriotic assholes.

Subject: RE: BS: I've tried to stay out of this fight but
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 01:36 PM

It's possible that Jeri, above, put her finger on something, i.e., ". . . but whose?" After my initial shock at the thing, I, too, began to wonder.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: I've tried to stay out of this fight but
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 01:40 PM

Oh no, Don- the U.S. wouldn't stoop to faking evidence like that- just ask Powell.

Subject: RE: BS: I've tried to stay out of this fight but
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 03:04 PM

The building in the mural doesn't even vaguely resemble the WTC. I wonder if it depicts a different building somewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: I've tried to stay out of this fight but
From: InOBU
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 03:39 PM

Dear Friends:
Before you get too I'm OK you are not OK, have you ever seen the usual thnicity of the violent video games American's play, we do as much if not more shoot the "other", we just drop a few dollars into a machine to do it.
Peace
Larry

Subject: RE: BS: I've tried to stay out of this fight but
From: catspaw49
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 04:43 PM

My gawd, that's hideous!!! I saw it on the news as well and it certainly is a lowlife thing to do! Americans would NEVER indulge in such degrading artwork.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: I've tried to stay out of this fight but
From: Gareth
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 07:18 PM

And I suppose the "Horst Wessle Lied" was a nursery song ???

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: I've tried to stay out of this fight but
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 08:08 PM

Annamill: A depiction of suffering wouldn't have to be a travesty. Are you familiar with Picasso's Guernica?

Click for an article.

Click for better graphics.

(This is not meant to be a defense of the Iraqi mural. I don't think the intent was the same at all.)

Subject: RE: BS: I've tried to stay out of this fight but
From: GUEST,Norton1
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 08:14 PM

There are assholes - some patriotic and some not. And in some context we are all assholes as well as having an asshole - so who gives a shit? It's bad art to me - but to some it is art. Maybe it's asshole art? Maybe someone who had an asshole, and sort of was an asshole at times, painted the thing. So one must look at it from an asshole's perspective to really understand it -

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: I've tried to stay out of this fight but
From: Amos
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 08:56 PM

Steve:

You're a gem. LOL!


A

Subject: RE: BS: I've tried to stay out of this fight but
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 11:08 PM

SteveBro, I didn't quite get that. Are you saying that some hole had an ass or some ass had a hole? Aren't they mutually exclusive? I mean, ya dig up a pile a dirt, ya got a hole, right? But no evidence of an ass. Now, I 'spose the kinda ass which is four-legged must have one or two holes, so I guess...oh, nevermind, NOW, I know what you're talking about!

Subject: RE: BS: I've tried to stay out of this fight but
From: GUEST,Norton1
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 11:12 PM

Well Sis - therin lies the problem - you're focused on the whole and it's like the forest - if you can't see the trees then you must be focused on the forest. So if you're focused on the hole then you must be missing the ass - and that made all the difference :-)

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: I've tried to stay out of this fight but
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 11:47 PM

Waidaminute! Yer saying I am looking at the forest or the trees? Huh? I thought I was digging a hole and you were looking for an ass, but I've always heard it said someone couldn't tell his ass from a hole in the ground, so, umm...I think I'm back at square one and m'head hurts and..um...I think I'd better go lie down, if I can find that hole and crawl back in it... or was it a tree I am supposed to climb?:-)

Subject: RE: BS: I've tried to stay out of this fight but
From: Gervase
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 02:40 AM

Guest - not just "the assholes in Iraq". Plenty of other people do as well. And carry on in the current vein and there'll be even more. There's one asshole in the UK that thinks the world would be a better place without people like you.

Subject: RE: BS: I've tried to stay out of this fight but
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 03:35 AM

I saw a video of the whle wall that is pretty much the entire picture. According to the new report it was in building near Nasiria(sp) which was marked as a hospital and contained no sign of doctors or patients but was well stocked with small arms, amunition 3000 chemical suits and lots of atropine (self administered nerve has antidote)

If this is so the "Artist"was not anti Iraq. A Spaw implied, the picture was most likely akin to the paintings on warplanes which supposedly are there to inspire their crews. This is to be expected. The picture wasn't meant for people like you animil and it is certainly no worse than the picture of hussein on the leaflets didtributes by the US military. Psyop presentation Propaganda is not pretty.

Subject: RE: BS: I've tried to stay out of this fight but
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 06:29 AM

Hi Guest,

To anyone in the US a marine is a "Leatherneck"

To anyone in the UK a marine is a "Bootneck"

I am from the UK therefore refer to all marines as "Bootnecks".

Most common useage used to be from "ladies of the night" in Plymouth:

They'd come out with the challenge, "Bottneck, Bootneck, can't catch me" immediately followed by "Oh Royal, you don't half run fast"

The Royals were stationed in Stonehouse Barracks, Plymouth so they were regarded as a steadier source of income - the lower end of the market went after the RN, and commonly hear whispered from shadowy doorways on the way back to Devonport Dockyard, in Plymouth:

"Psst! Jack! fancy a grim time"

As for the building not resembling the WTC - its even got the detail of only one tower having a communications tower on top of it.

Anybody identified the artist yet?.

Subject: RE: BS: I've tried to stay out of this fight but
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 02:58 PM

>>- its even got the detail of only one tower having a communications tower on top of it.<<

Oh, yes, I see it now. Thanks. It does bear a vague resemblance to the WTC.

Subject: RE: BS: I've tried to stay out of this fight but
From: kendall
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 04:37 PM

Guest, are you the least bit interested in WHY they hate us?

Subject: RE: BS: I've tried to stay out of this fight but
From: Jeri
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 09:43 PM

What's odd is that the building looks a lot like the Ministry of Information which we bombed last night and today. It has 10 stories. Count the number in the mural and tell me whoever painted it didn't know the World Trade Center was a WEE bit taller. There's sand, and that marine doesn't look the way I'd expect someone who hated the US to have portrayed him.

I think the worst intention I can see would be that it says this time, the US are the terrorists. Iraqi land, Iraqi buildings, Iraqi planes. It may have been painted for Iraqi eyes to see, not American eyes. It might have been painted long enough ago to be a representation of what they were afraid of. Of course, I'm just speculating like everyone else.

And does anyone know what the blue thing at the bottom is?