BS: When Democracy Failed - Historical Parallels

Subject: BS: When Democracy Failed - Historical Paral
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 11:03 PM

One of my favourite authors is Thom Hartmann, who wrote the Last Hours of Ancient Sunlight. He is a writer, former editor and reporter, entrepreneur, psychotherapist (and NLP Practitioner and NLP Trainer), and worldwide lecturer who lives in Vermont. His writings focus on the intersection of myth and stories - otherwise known as "culture" - and how those stories, when they become toxic, lead to problems with schools, democratic institutions, the environment, and even problems in life, relationships, and communities.

He has just written a new essay, a very important one, IMO, When Democracy Failed - The Warnings of History, which should be read by any and everyone who cares about our country and our world. You may access it by clicking HERE.

Here are a couple of excerpts:

It started when the government, in the midst of a worldwide economic crisis, received reports of an imminent terrorist attack. A foreign ideologue had launched feeble attacks on a few famous buildings, but the media largely ignored his relatively small efforts...

...the man who claimed to be the nation's leader had not been elected by a majority vote and the majority of citizens claimed he had no right to the powers he coveted. He was a simpleton, some said, a cartoon character of a man who saw things in black-and-white terms and didn't have the intellect to understand the subtleties of running a nation in a complex and internationalist world... as a young man, he'd joined a secret society with an occult-sounding name and bizarre initiation rituals that involved skulls and human bones...

Within four weeks of the terrorist attack, the nation's now-popular leader had pushed through legislation - in the name of combating terrorism and fighting the philosophy he said spawned it - that suspended constitutional guarantees of free speech, privacy, and habeas corpus. Police could now intercept mail and wiretap phones; suspected terrorists could be imprisoned without specific charges and without access to their lawyers; police could sneak into people's homes without warrants if the cases involved terrorism...

Sound familiar? Please read the entire essay. It really is worth it.

Thanks,

kat

Subject: RE: BS: When Democracy Failed - Historical Parallels
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 11:11 PM

I found one very significant difference between the two: Bush hasn't gotten any better at speaking. Hopefully, that will prevent him from being quite as successful in achieving political control.

Subject: RE: BS: When Democracy Failed - Historical Parallels
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 11:12 PM

Too true! May it be so!

Subject: RE: BS: When Democracy Failed - Historical Parallels
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 11:19 PM

Where are Teribus and DougR when we need 'em? And where's toll? Well, it will be interesting if these folks try to put up any defense in *their guy*.

Meanwhile, Bush, or his handlers, won't get that "If ya' don't know history then you are apt to repeat it" gonna have to do some serious wreastlin'.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: When Democracy Failed - Historical Paralle
From: mack/misophist
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 01:02 AM

Even though there is nothing better, democracy will always fail when a more or less ignorant majority votes it's percieved interests rather than the greater good. We are all greedy, dammit.

Subject: RE: BS: When Democracy Failed - Historical Parallels
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 01:45 AM

Chilling.

Subject: RE: BS: When Democracy Failed - Historical Parallels
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 02:01 AM

I did not read the entire essay yet, but the words that are here stirred in me something I can't quite explain. (maybe I'm just horny)((JOKE)) But the title of this thread also brought to mind the operation Barbarosa-1941- Germans invaded Russia, believing the Russians would collapse. They hated communism but they fought for their motherland and Stalin, rather than be under Nazi rule. I'm sorry this has nothing to do with the excerpt does it? None-the-less- I continue to see repeating history and only wish we could learn from past mistakes.
Love will make your toes curl-Rustic

Subject: RE: BS: When Democracy Failed - Historical Parallels
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 03:43 AM

Inexplicably, I'm going to argue for the wrong side, but I'll let somebody else untangle things ... If the repartions demanded by the Allies at the end of WWI hadn't been so swingeing, Hitler would have had a much harder job to get to the top. The German economy was in a very bad way by 1933, with inflation running away (and made much play of by the propagandists). Now, I heard it said a year or so after the last Gulf War that we were a little too magnanimous in our victory; if we'd been a little tougher and continued the war for just a few more days, we could have made all the Iraqi soldiers walk home -- literally -- and scored a big propaganda victory over Saddam: he would have been perceived by his people as a failed leader, who started a war he couldn't finish, and he'd have been turfed out.

So the second World War was a consequence of a too hard attitude to the defeated country, while the second Gulf War is the consequence of a too soft attitiude...?

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: When Democracy Failed - Historical Parallels
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 05:25 AM

Steve,

You make some good points and Rustic Rebel raises what he sees as another parallel. I will give you another.

After subverting power in 1933, it was obvious to every major power in Europe (Britain, France, Italy and Russia) that Germany was in clear material breach of the Peace Treaty it had signed in 1919. At the time (1933) great faith was placed in an International Organisation called The League of Nations to resolve such matters. Throughout Europe lone voices were raised, providing dire warnings of what would follow if no action was taken - those warnings were studiously ignored. Countries still numbed by the cost and suffering of the previous war chose the path of peace at any price, to the lone warning voices they demanded - "Where is your proof" - denigrating those raising concern and labelling them "warmongers". As events unfolded the individual powerful states of Europe did nothing, as they did nothing The League of Nations did nothing.

Nazi Germany re-occupied the Rhineland - another material breach that went unchallenged.

Nazi Germany annexed Austria - another material breach that went unchallenged

The Sudatenland was annexed, swiftly followed by the invasion of Czechoslovakia. I hate to correct Mr. Hartman but it was this incident in 1938, not the Annexation of Austria in 1936, that prompted the Munich Crisis that resulted in Mr. Chamberlain return to London with his "piece of paper" in his hand. Hitler was absolutely livid - he needed his war in the west that year - thankfully, for the entire world, he didn't get it, because in 1938 he would have won.

By now, finally, the French, the British and the Russians were alert to the danger.

Stalin was in the middle of a purge of the most capable senior officers in the Red Army, a move he would bitterly regret later, factories used to produce T-34 and KV-1 tanks were relocated east of the Ural mountains, out of German eyes and reach.

France started to re-arm, unfortunately, and typically, putting their faith on the static defences based on First World War thinking.

In Britain, Neville Chamberlain's government rapidly re-equipped the Royal Air Force's fighter command, pushed ahead the development of RADAR, reserve and auxiliary units were created in order to train pilots, soldiers and seamen, the Royal Naval Corps of constructors were asked to design convoy escorts that could be built quickly and cheaply, the development of ASDIC was accelerated. Unfortunately in their haste to prepare, they did not dust of the cover of a book written in the early twenties by a British Army Major, Basil Liddell-Hart - others had read his book - General Charles de Gaulle in France, but more significantly General Heinz Guderian in Germany and a Soviet Commander who had survived Stalin's purge Georgy Zhukov. The latter would end up as Germany's nemesis.

Nazi-Germany noted these preparations and tried to counter them diplomatically. His master-stroke was the German- Russian Non-aggression Pact, that isolated Britain and France. Hitler then proceeded to attain the re-unification of East Prussia with his greater Reich. That involved eliminating the "Polish Corridor" the French and British informed Ribbentropp, Hitler's Foreign Minister that any attack on Poland would result in war. Hitler arranged his retaliatory strike on Poland - Another clear material breach, and at last two major powers in Europe acted unilaterally, without the sanction of the League of Nations, issued an ultimatum and declared war on Germany.

Had either Britain, or France, acted with regard to Germany in 1933 in the manner that the current President of the United States and his government has acted with regard to Saddam Hussein in Iraq - There would have been no Second World War in 1939.

Subject: RE: BS: When Democracy Failed - Historical Parallels
From: Wolfgang
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 06:11 AM

Hartmann is carefully selective in his presentation of his-story. He omits everything that doesn't fit and to make the parallels even more compelling he cheats in details. Take for instance the 'God with us' he mentions and for the sake of the parallel fails to mention that this inscription also had been there during the first world war, perhaps even earlier, and that under Hitler that inscription was changed to another (without God) at least for parts of the German army.

It is easy to rewrite the story, selectively too, with a completely different comparison in mind. Teribus has done that.

For truly to learn from history it has to be presented as unbiased as possible. I see no real attempt at that in Hartmann's piece. It is interesting to read, but it is propaganda and as much worth as propaganda is.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: When Democracy Failed - Historical Parallels
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 06:41 AM

Thanks Wolfgang, I could not agree with your post above more, particularly the sentence - "For truly to learn from history it has to be presented as unbiased as possible."

And as you correctly point out, the rewrite I did had precisely that point.

Just in case Little Hawk should enter this thread, for the sake of historical accuracy - an American General George S. Patton also read Liddell-Hart's book.

Subject: RE: BS: When Democracy Failed - Historical Parallels
From: PeteBoom
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 08:42 AM

"There would have been no Second World War in 1939."

True - sort of. It would have started earlier... yet still after Japan invaded China - when WWII really started. If you think that Japan's first step in implementing the Greater SouthEast Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere had nothing to do with accelerating timelines in Europe, I'm afraid the Euro-Centric bias is showing.

I somethimes think the lot of you are as blinkered as you are charging Hartmann as being. He is presenting an editorial/argument and supporting it with historical examples - a standard move in logic and debate. You counter that by other historical examples or pointing out error in the supporting evidence. He is NOT attempting, in this case, to write a fair and accurate historical account.

As far as the League of Nations not acting, it had no authority to act. Nowhere in its charter was there any authorization of force.

Subject: RE: BS: When Democracy Failed - Historical Parallels
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 08:44 AM

Teribus, the war might not have started in 1939, but it would have started in 1933. It's a fair question whether the U.S. alone, without popular support, against Germany alone with 1933 army size and readiness, would have done better or worse than really happened.

Subject: RE: BS: When Democracy Failed - Historical Parallels
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 10:05 AM

Slight diversion, but while we're on the subject: I recommend "Fatherland", Thomas Harris's novel. Don't check out the reviews, sone of them spoil a surprise or two; suffice it to say it's set in Hitler's Germany in 1964, with the presidential election coming up in the US. It's a very good read.

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: When Democracy Failed - Historical Parallels
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 10:16 AM

Forum Lurker,

What I said was:

"Had either Britain, or France, acted with regard to Germany in 1933 in the manner that the current President of the United States and his government has acted with regard to Saddam Hussein in Iraq - There would have been no Second World War in 1939."

If Britain or France reacted strongly to German rearmament in 1933 Germany would have stopped in its tracks.

If the French had reacted to the German re-occupation of the Rhineland in 1936 Germany would have been stopped in its tracks.

I was not posing any question about America confronting Germany in 1933.

The German army in 1933 was little more than a glorified police force.

The German Navy in 1933 was practically non-existant

The German Air Force in 1933 did not exist.

Hitler's Nazi-Germany made secret agreements with Russia and Italy, that allowed Germans to train as pilots and with tanks in Russia, German U-boat Captains and crews were initially trained by the Italians.

The Annexation of Austria in 1936, nearly sounded the death-knell of the "Blitzkrieg" concept - the tanks were hopelessly unreliable - Guderian mentions tanks having to be drawn by horses to points that would enable them to then drive triumphally into Austrian towns and through villages. Looked damn convincing too, but toally useless.

As a show of good will, during the run up to the signing of the German-Russian Non-Aggression Pact, Hitler threw his armaments industry open to the Russians for inspection. At that time the Russians could not believe how poor the German armour was, the heaviest they had was the Panzer Mk IV, at that time purely an infantry support tank armed with a 75mm L24 gun.

One totally unexpected windfall for the Germans was the acquisition, during the 1938 occupation of Czechoslovakia, of a large number of Czech t-35 and t-38 tanks (hundreds of them) - compared to their German counterparts they were better armed and more mechanically reliable. These machines provided the bulk of German armoured formations used against the Poles and against the Dutch, Belgians, French and British when Germany struck west in 1940. Later once the faults in the German designs were ironed out, the turrets were removed from these Czech machines and used as static defence points, and the hulls of the t-35's and t-38's were converted to mount larger anti-tank guns (Marder I) and as self propelled artillery (Wespe).

Subject: RE: BS: When Democracy Failed - Historical Parallels
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 10:25 AM

Nazi Germany re-occupied the Rhineland - another material breach that went unchallenged.

Nazi Germany annexed Austria - another material breach that went unchallenged

The Sudatenland was annexed, swiftly followed by the invasion of Czechoslovakia. I hate to correct Mr. Hartman but it was this incident in 1938, not the Annexation of Austria in 1936, that prompted the Munich Crisis that resulted in Mr. Chamberlain return to London with his "piece of paper" in his hand. Hitler was absolutely livid - he needed his war in the west that year - thankfully, for the entire world, he didn't get it, because in 1938 he would have won.

Here's where your comparison falls down, Teribus. When Saddam invaded Kuwaite, the world responded, and he was forced to withdraw back to Iraq. He has not invaded any other countries since then. The US, on the other hand, has been invading other countries; Afghanistan, and now Iraq, and it has its eyes set on eventual military action against countries such as Iran and Syria.

Subject: RE: BS: When Democracy Failed - Historical Parallels
From: Bagpuss
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 10:29 AM

We could pre-emptively attack many different countries that we perceive may be a threat in the future. In some cases that may prevent somthing worse happening in the future. In most cases though, nothing worse would have happened in the future and all we will succeed in doing is killing people and destroying other peoples homes and lives. The problem is that we can't see into the future and know which cases are which.

And what if, following the lead of the US and UK, India decides that Pakistan pose them a huge threat in the future (far more likely than the scenario that Iraq will pose a threat) - or vice versa, that Pakistan feel the same about India. All of a sudden, our governments will be cautioning restraint and dialogue. Why should they listen to those words rather than these arguments about pre-emptively striking a future threat? I think this issue is much wider than what to do about Iraq and is going to make the world a much less safe place.

Bagpuss

Subject: RE: BS: When Democracy Failed - Historical Parallels
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 10:33 AM

Carol,

You've missed the point.

When exactly did the United States of America invade Afghanistan?

What are your grounds for stating that American foreign policy is directed towards armed conflict with Iran and Syria?`

Subject: RE: BS: When Democracy Failed - Historical Paralle
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 11:17 AM

Teribus-We invaded Afghanistan last year. Remember the hunt for bin Laden? When large numbers of soldiers enter a foreign country and depose the government of said country, it's generally called an invasion.

Subject: RE: BS: When Democracy Failed - Historical Parallels
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 01:52 PM

Teribus, you didn't hear about our invasion of Afghanistan? You didn't know that we "liberated" the Afghan people from the Taliban?

As far as Syria and Iran are concerned, they're on the list of the Project for a New American Century people, and we've followed their "project" almost to the letter so far. So it's not too difficult to see what's coming next.

Subject: RE: BS: When Democracy Failed - Historical Parallels
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 04:53 PM

History doesn't repeat itself. Trying to avoid what are seen as the mistakes of the past can be a sure way of making a whole set of fresh mistakes, because the situation isn't the same.

As I read Thom Hartmann's piece, what he's doing is to stand on its head the stuff that's been churned out about how Saddam is just like Hitler and the lessons of the 30s, and so forth - and showing that it is perfectly easy to make the same kind of parallels between Bush and Hitler. Just as easy, and ultimately misleading.

Learning from the past can't be a mattere of drawing false analogies, and parachuting in policies from a science-fiction alternative history book. It's possible to learn from past mistakes, but it's a whole lot more complicated than that kind of thing.

Subject: RE: BS: When Democracy Failed - Historical Parallels
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 05:10 PM

I just now heard Donald Rumsfeld on the radio pointing the finger at Syria and Iran. It's only a matter of time now.

Subject: RE: BS: When Democracy Failed - Historical Parallels
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 05:35 PM

Rumsfeld is now getting after Syria and Iran for selling those items to Iraq; the last few days he had been blaming Russia for it, who denied it. Ya think we got it right now?

Subject: RE: BS: When Democracy Failed - Historical Parallels
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 05:57 PM

So if it turns out that it's been firms and government agencies back home in the USA who've been in this kind of thing up to the neck, what happens then?

Look on the bright side - they won't need to worry about getting any Security Council resolutions to authorise wage preemptive war back in the USA...

Subject: RE: BS: When Democracy Failed - Historical Parallels
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 06:54 PM

Supposedly now the reason only certain US firms are being allowed to win contracts to rebuild Iraq is because only those certain ones have high enough security clearance to read the top secret docs. telling them info on what will need to be done!

I think we need to start talkin' about a rev-o-lu-tion now...

kat

Subject: RE: BS: When Democracy Failed - Historical Parallels
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 07:22 PM

No, history does not repeat itself. Certainly not in detail. But it does repeat many principles and trends, often closely enough that the outcome of a given action can be predicted with considerable accuracy.

I've just dug out a book that I read some time back and I'm rereading it. I recommend it to any and all. The March of Folly, by historian Barbara Tuchman. One of the premises of this book is that the acquisition of power often seems to carry a concomitant loss of intellectual capacity. One of the manifestations of this is the incidence of self-destructive behavior on the part of national leaders—not just destructive to the leader himself or herself, but to the nation or region as a whole. This self-destructive behavior is not just seen in retrospect, it is obvious to many contemporaries who warn the leader of the inevitable consequences of their actions and often try to prevent them. The intractable leader arrogantly plunges on and the predicted negative results do indeed come to pass, to the detriment of the leader and to the nation.

Once again, I emphasize that there are contemporaries close to the leader who see the consequences clearly and warn or try to stop the leader, but the leader goes ahead and does it anyway.

History is rife with examples, some of which Barbara Tuchman details in her book.

And the beat goes on.

This book makes edifying reading.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: When Democracy Failed - Historical Parallels
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 07:48 PM

Hmmmmm, Don?

Now it looks as if the folks who had studied "military science" and had experiance in war, were bullied by Donnie Rumsfeld into accepting a war plan that Donnie Rumsfeld thought would work. Problem is, Donnie Rumsfeld don't know nothing about war.

Now, there's a lot of finger pointing. Rumsfeld is pointing at Tommie Franks and, well, while one military expert after another criticizes the plan, Franks is just taking the heat. But I remember reading months ago in the Washington Post about the strain between Rumsfeld, who thinks he knows everything in the world, and just about everyone in the Pentagon.

Sounds just like what Barbara Tuchman was talking about in her book...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: When Democracy Failed - Historical Parallels
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 08:05 PM

Yes, you can learn from the past, you have to. You can identify processes, and patterns of behaviour that recur and so forth. But what people try to do is pick out a particular scenario, and transplant it into a new context, and rely on things working out the same way. And that is a very dangerous and potentially misleading thing to do.

And that is even more true when we aren't even going by what actually happened in real history, but in an imagined alternative history where everything worked out better. "If we had done this in the past the consequences would have been better; so in this present situation we must act this way rather than that to avoid the mistake that was made last time".

But of course we can't take into account all the other consequences that didn't happen. And there is something very arbitrary about the past scenario people choose to concentrate on. After all the roots of appeasement lay in the understanding that people had of the process by which the Great War came about.

Subject: RE: BS: When Democracy Failed - Historical Parallels
From: PeteBoom
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 08:08 PM

"The March of Folly, by historian Barbara Tuchman."

Brilliant book. I have it at home - AND at the office. I've a small "professional lending library" at my office (the result of what I do for a living). It is on the shelf along with Sun Tzu's "Art of War", Mushashi's "Book of Five Rings", and Keegan's "Face of Battle". There are actually some books that relate to what I do as well. I have folks joining the group start with those, and work their way down the line. (Much easier to read Tuchman than dry computer manuals with the same lesson.)

Cheers -

Pete

Subject: RE: BS: When Democracy Failed - Historical Parallels
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 08:15 PM

Anyone know who said, "those that don't remember history are doomed to repeat it"?

Marx said," history repeats itself, the first time as tragedy, the second time as farce."

Kat I read your article and I thought I was reading about Bush at first, then reading dates cleared it up. Is that where Bush got the idea for the homeland security act, and pushed it through without the senate reading it? Sounds like if that was fact, history is repeating.

I think we need to let go of history and focus on the present. We keep ourselves locked into to much of the past.I wrote this song awhile ago and it seems appropriate for this thread.

      Faded History
The world has had it's time of lessons all well learned. And now we can reflect for those that are yet unborn. Let the tales of horror and war pass beyond our imagination. Let's start a new beginning with new tales of communication. Logic makes us see We have nothing to lose. Peace is within our grasp If that is what we choose. Let's take a chance Begin anew Start from scratch See what we can do To create a new history For all mankind to tell. The stories of a peacefull era, and how we came to say, We are a unity of people And let the old history fade away.

still a work in progress and I've changed and added some things but the point is still there.
The parallel I was pointing out earlier was what is happening now, with Iraq and US occupation after the war. I think although they don't like Saddam, they are also anti-American and don't want us in there either. That is why they are looking at a tougher war than they thought it would be. The people are fighting for their land. Like the Russians that fought against the Nazi invasion. There you go, a repeat of history of sorts.
Peace. Rustic

Subject: RE: BS: When Democracy Failed - Historical Parallels
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 08:36 PM

Right on, Rustic! But someyhow we gotta break this bad spell we're suffering from where we elect anti-human, anti-eart people to call the shots. Not sure how we're going to break this cycle, but if mankind is to survive itself we're going t0o have to make some fundemental differences in the manner in which we solve conflicts.
Unfortunately, the idiot de jour, has all but nuked the UN, so after this idiot we are going to need a lot of Earth rebuilding before we get back to where we before this idiot intervened in the forward development of mankind.

But this is do-able. Maybe not as profitable in the short run but what are the choices in an ever shrinking, tribalized planet?

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: When Democracy Failed - Historical Parallels
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 09:35 PM

Just finished reading "Henry V, the Cautious Conqueror," by Margaret Wade Labarge. The parallels between the period leading up to the current invasion and Henry's invasion of France [and between George II and Henry, himself] are striking. Both created a pretext for war based upon the other side's supposed evils. Father and son, in both cases, backed various sides in the local conflicts at various times. There were questions of legitimacy of rule in both cases. Henry armed actively while supposedly treating for peace. Both escalated their demands to the point where the supposed bad guys could not possibly have met them. The list goes ever on...

In common with most conquerors, the works of George II will almost certainly be undone [thank the Lord] by those who have a desire for freedom. Bear in mind that Henry's invasion was a major influence on eventual French unification into a nation.

Subject: RE: BS: When Democracy Failed - Historical Paralle
From: Amos
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 09:44 PM

A well-written essay, and a good, dire warning.

But it does not take care of the differences with anything like the assiduousness with which it undewrscores sim,ilarities, and so, no matter how articulate it is in the things it does say, it is undermined by the things it leaves out.

A

Subject: RE: BS: When Democracy Failed - Historical Parallels
From: toadfrog
Date: 29 Mar 03 - 02:40 AM

Wolfgang: I, for one, much appreciate your role as voice of reason in all this - bringing in the facts in several of these threads where people start running off the track. People who use the image of Hitler in political debate are almost never interested in learning from history - only in manipulating the myth to promote some cause.
Hoffmann's story is one of the most polished examples I have seen. Terribus's myth is silly and shopworn, but that does not stop people from using it, over and over and again.

This has been said before. We need a moratorium - say for maybe, 50 or 60 years - on comparing people with Hitler.

If we need historical analogies, a more accurate analogy might be between Bush and the late Wilhelm II. Both inherited their power. Both loved to flaunt their power. Both were incompetent diplomats. Both pursued self-defeating foreign policies. Both made their nations hated, all around the world. Wilhelm II saw his nation brought low. And GWM may profit by his example.

Subject: RE: BS: When Democracy Failed - Historical Parallels
From: toadfrog
Date: 29 Mar 03 - 02:43 AM

Sorry for the typo. Should read, "GWB may profit . . ."

Subject: RE: BS: When Democracy Failed - Historical Parallels
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 29 Mar 03 - 03:09 AM

Now that is an interesting parallel Toadfrog. Of who you speak I know not of but am willing to learn more, I being one, who suggested the article sounded like Bush.

Subject: RE: BS: When Democracy Failed - Historical Parallels
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Mar 03 - 12:45 PM

The following reference from a post above:

The March of Folly, by historian Barbara Tuchman. One of the premises of this book is that the acquisition of power often seems to carry a concomitant loss of intellectual capacity.

Surely the current situation not only demonstrates a manifestation of that premise, but also the most extreme example of it, right?

Subject: RE: BS: When Democracy Failed - Historical Parallels
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Mar 03 - 01:21 PM

A small correction:

The book Fatherland is by Robert Harris, not Thomas Harris. Good book!

Subject: RE: BS: When Democracy Failed - Historical Parallels
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Mar 03 - 03:11 PM

Right, GUEST. And the deed itself. Opting for a self-destructive course of action when a recognized and completely feasible alternative is available, then bull-headedly pursuing the self-destructive option, despite a loud chorus of warnings and objections of those around them. The feared disaster, clearly seen and warned of by almost everybody but those in power, occurs as predicted.

The subtitle of Barbara Tuchman's The March of Folly is "From Troy to Vietnam." Between those two events, she details an amazing string of monumental blunders, foreseen and warned of at the time, committed by established rulers and governments. This self-destructive behavior seems to be born of a strange mix of short-sightedness and arrogance. Barbara Tuchman is no longer with us, but it appears that if she were, she could soon add a lengthy, well-documented chapter to her incisive book.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: When Democracy Failed - Historical Parallels
From: toadfrog
Date: 29 Mar 03 - 04:10 PM

Rustic: Wilhelm II was the last German Kaiser. He did not really control Germany in the sense GWB controls the United States, but he did have real power and was Germany's chief of state and spokesman. At the time of the Boxer Rebellion he sent of a detachment of German troops to fight in China, and gave a speech telling them to make themself feared and respected, like "the Huns." That expression later came back to haunt him.

The course Germany pursued before World War I was not consciously aimed at world or European domination. But that would have been its outcome if it had been successful. The German battle fleet was supposedly not aimed at England, but was ostensibly only supposed to be large enough to deal with Russia or France in case of war. But the English rightly saw it as a threat, and began an extremely expensive course of fleet building in response. Germany thus antagonized England, which otherwise would have been Germany's natural ally. The analogy with America's Strategic Missle Defense, which allegedly is not aimed at China or Russia, seems pretty clear.

Germany's contingency plan for war, the Schlieffen Plan was even more disastrous, and unnecessarily brought France and England into a war they would have preferred to stay out of. That story is much to long to post on Mudcat, but the outcome was horrible for Germany, England, France, and just about everybody else.

The Kaiser almost certainly believed all these things were being done to make his country secure, a type of denial one often sees in the United States today. I am not so sure GWB and his people are in denial. I suspect that unlike "Kaiser Bill," they may really have world domination in mind. I have heard it said that the idea has been fermenting in "conservative" think tanks, but have not yet got up enough energy to hunt it down. I very much doubt anyone really intends to bring democracy to Iraq. That would be "nation building," or the idea that the United States should treat third world countries benignly. And idea that "conservatives" have in the past treated with the greatest contempt.

Subject: RE: BS: When Democracy Failed - Historical Parallels
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Mar 03 - 04:48 PM

toadfrog, HERE it is. This is not some liberal web site aimed at propagandizing and bad-mouthing the Bush Administration and the neo-Conservatives, this is their web site and it is in their own words.

This makes fascinating reading. All of this is written up in glowing, patriotic terms, in a manner that will warm the heart of any self-styled patriot, but a read-through of the various links in this site can leave no doubt as to the long-range intentions of the Bush Administration and those behind it.

I find the following two paragraphs in The Bush Doctrine, in the list of articles under Defense and National Security to be especially telling:—

Promoting liberal democratic principles. "No nation is exempt" from the "non-negotiable demands" of liberty, law and justice. Because the United States has a "greater objective" -- a greater purpose -- in the world, Bush sees in the war not just danger but an opportunity to spread American political principles, especially into the Muslim world.

The Bush Doctrine is also notable for what it is not. It is not Clintonian multilateralism; the president did not appeal to the United Nations, profess faith in arms control, or raise hopes for any "peace process." Nor is it the balance-of-power realism favored by his father. It is, rather, a reassertion that lasting peace and security is to be won and preserved by asserting both U.S. military strength and American political principles.

Spend some time browsing through the various links and reading what is presented. It's a real eye-opener.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: When Democracy Failed - Historical Parallels
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Mar 03 - 05:18 PM

I got a big kick out of the term "advocacy journalism" in your first link there, Don. They're using propaganda to describe propaganda ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: When Democracy Failed - Historical Parallels
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Mar 03 - 05:25 PM

Hi: This is the same Guest again -- I really should get a membership.
Since this forum doesn't seem to have a lot of flaming or nastiness, I wish to put forth a Bush issue which worries me quite a bit, as it does my friends and neighbours.

I am Canadian, living on the west coast of Canada in a small, peaceful city which seems to exemplify the "Canadian" perspective. We are a nation of peacekeepers -- that is a longstanding traditional role for our country. While there are practical reasons for this position (small population, so not much military), this role primarily reflects the attitude of a great many Canadians.

So our government did not support the invasion of Iraq, partly because of the above, partly because we felt strongly that the arms inspectors were getting somewhere, and partly because we believed that the U.N. should not have been bypassed.

We have a couple of mouthy politicians who said very rude things about GWB after the invasion began. GWB then ordered your ambassador to Canada, a Mr. Celucci, to state that the U.S. is "very disappointed" in Canada for not supporting the U.S., that there will be ramifications from this disagreement, etc. etc. -- altogether a very non-diplomatic statement.

All that we could have managed, but please check out the next statement that Celucci made on orders from GWB:

http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2003/03/29/cellucci_energy030329

This statement, following on the heels of criticizing Canada for not joining the attack on Iraq, strikes some of us as simply a next step in a move toward obtaining -- possibly by any means -- increased access to our oil, water, hydro and other resources.

Does this hunch seem ridiculous?

Thanks,

pdc.

Subject: RE: BS: When Democracy Failed - Historical Parallels
From: toadfrog
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 12:08 AM

Don: Thanks for the link. I bookmarked it for further perusal. It looks like heavy stuff; signed by William Kristol and with cites to the Heritage foundation. Clearly not just a bunch of un-influential kooks. This is an extremely serious matter and I want lots of information before I make up my mind. But you have given me quite a useful start, I think.

Subject: RE: BS: When Democracy Failed - Historical Parallels
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 12:26 AM

"I really should get a membership" pdc -

Even without why not just could type "pdc" in at the head of the post, so you come in as "GUEST: pdc", and that way you identify yourself as yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: When Democracy Failed - Historical Parallels
From: toadfrog
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 12:46 AM

Yes Don. And here's yet another think-tank. LINK HERE I quote:
    "Having become a test of American power and purpose in the world, war in Iraq will have consequences not simply for Saddam and his regime, or the Iraqi people, or the security balance in the Persian Gulf. A U.S. victory--measured also by the planting of the seeds of liberty and democracy in Baghdad--will define the start of a truly new world order; to steal Dean Acheson's famous phrase, we are present at the creation. What, exactly, we are creating we do not know. It       will be necessary to create international institutions that reflect the new realities, and they may even be called the United Nations and the North Atlantic Treaty Organization. But if so, those organizations will have to be fundamentally transformed to reestablish the link between the right to make international law and he responsibility to enforce it."

That's wild and wooly stuff, all right!

Subject: RE: BS: When Democracy Failed - Historical Parallels
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 01:49 AM

Rustic: The von Schlieffen Plan wasn't executed until after both France and England had declared war, was it? Also, Germany was by no means the only country engaging in dangerous escalation at the time.

Subject: RE: BS: When Democracy Failed - Historical Parallels
From: RichM
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 12:25 PM

Some views about Middle Eastern Democracy   
click

Subject: RE: BS: When Democracy Failed - Historical Parallels
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 01:18 PM

True enough Lurker - most times it takes a bunch of irresponsble nuts on both sides to make a war, whether in 1914 or 2003.

Subject: RE: BS: When Democracy Failed - Historical Parallels
From: toadfrog
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 02:27 PM

Forum Lurker. You are mistaken about the Plan. I don't know what you mean by "executed." I don't recall the precise sequence of events, but England certainly did not become involved until it became very clear German troops were going into Belgium. Germany was not solely responsible for the war. Russia and Austria began it, but England and France were not responsible for it at all.