BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines

Subject: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST,Norton1
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 09:49 AM

Someone on a thread a bit ago asked if the protests were hurting the men and women tasked to fight the war - here's your answer. I won't print what my Daughter said to tell you - it would be deleted as a personal attack on the bunch of you. And no I don't think this thread would be appropriate to tell me that you are praying for these folks. You want to really support them - show it with flags and care packages, visits to your local VA hospital, volunteer at the Red Cross, but being jerks in public is not helping them.

Steve


Below is a letter received by the parents of Corporal Joshua Miles from the 3rd Battalion 2nd Marines.   This simple Poem says a lot.

We got a letter from Josh today, if you could call it that, written 3/9. They are hearing about the anti-war protests and he was upset. That' s all the letter talked about. He enclosed a poem he and his buddies wrote. He wants us to get it out, let people see how
they feel.

"Wish You Were Here"
For all the free people that still protest.
You're welcome.
We protect you and you are protected by the best.
Your voice is strong and loud, but who will fight for
you?
No one standing in your crowd.
We are your fathers, brothers, and sons, wearing the
boots and carrying guns.
We are the ones that leave all we own, to make sure
your future is carved in stone.
We are the ones who fight and die, we might not be
able to save the world,
Well, at least we try.
We walked the paths to where we are at and we want no
choice other than that.
So when you rally your group to complain, take a
look in the back of your brain..
In order for that flag you love to fly wars must be
fought and young men must die.
We came here to fight for the ones we hold dear.
If that's not respected, we would rather stay here.
So please stop yelling, put down your signs, and
pray for those behind enemy lines.
When the conflict is over and all is well, be
thankful that we chose to go through hell.

Corporal Joshua Miles & all the young men from 3rd
Battalion 2nd Marines, Kuwait

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 10:00 AM

Thanks, Steve. It's a good poem and I am sorry for the hard feelings.

I would like to point out, though, that many of the people I have met, who are protesting, along with the rest of the world, are veterans who also fought and sacrificed, in previous wars, to uphold our freedoms.

luvyakat

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Peter T.
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 10:37 AM

Fighting in a war like this is to ensure that your future is carved in dust.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 10:43 AM

For those who might be concerned for the troops and want to show them individual support:
Adopt a soldier.

Some of our protesters were at the VA hospital yesterday advocating benefits for all veterans and support for our troops when they come home with possible problems with PTSD, amputations, Gulf War disease, etc. According to one report, VA benefits are going to be slashed over the next ten years. We need to remember vets when they come home, regardless of how we feel about the war, imo.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Peter T.
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 11:12 AM

A LETTER HOME

You people stand up and say we should not be at war,
even in the halls of government,
And yet how is liberty and law to be preserved,
and the so fragile order of things. If they should win,
everything we fight for would be threatened,
around the world.
You at home, snug in your beds,
Accusing our leader of madness,
ruthlessness,
Have no idea about how these savages fight,
paying no attention to the rules of war,
dressing up as civilians, ambushing us,
persecuting innocent bystanders,
sending them into exile, the roads clogged
with refugees. We are a long way
from home,
but we will prevail against these pious
hypocrites, in the defence of the right,
Behind these monsters, disguised as human beings,
Who kill us and whom we will kill
Are the people, who, even if they do not know it now,
Are with us.

(A British soldier, writing home from America, 1778)
(A Roman soldier, writing home from Gaul, 44 B.C.)
(A Christian soldier, writing home from Jerusalem, 1123 A.D.)
(A Spanish soldier, writing home from Cuzco, Peru, 1562 A.D.)
and so on....

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Amos
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 11:45 AM

I submit there are important differences among the present situation and your examples, dear Peter. The Romans and the Spaniards were simply and directly out for conquest. The Crusaders were pursuing a fatally flawed vision. While the U.S forces in Iraq are certainly there because of extremely poor management by the current administration they are not there to conquer Iraq and they are not there to change anyone's religion.

The broad repeating patterns which you so deftly identify are not generated by those in protest or by those in service in this war. And failing to penetrate the mechanisms for the cyclic insanity can hardly be blamed on those who are doing what they feel they must. I don't know if anyone can. They are certainly too deeply buried for most people to untangle, in spite of their mindless repetitions through history.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Gareth
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 11:55 AM

Diferent War, different cause, but the thoughts the same.

Click 'Ere

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Peter T.
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 12:02 PM

On the contrary, the Romans consistently spoke about the spread of Roman welfare; but more important, the more involved they got in various places like Egypt, France, etc., the more trouble they got into, and the more necessary to the future of Rome the suppression of revolt was. Even more strikingly, in the case of the Spaniards, after the initial voyages, they deliberately got blessing from the Pope and were officially acting as his emissaries, bringing Christianity to the New World. They would stand at the entrance to villages, reading (in Spanish that the villagers could not understand) an order to the villagers to submit to being Christianized, and if they did not, they would be butchered. So controversial was their mission, that they -- extraordinarily -- held a conference in Spain in the early 1550s, at which Bartolomme de Las Casas fought against Sepulveda as to the justice of Spanish conquest. I know of very few cases where pure conquest is openly stated as the goal (in fact, I can't think of any): there is always a dusting of "goodness".


I thought it was blindingly obvious that the United States is out to conquer Iraq. Conquer, in my dictionary, means to beat into submission.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 12:06 PM

Our service people are good and dedicated people who are willing to put their lives on the line to protect our freedom. For that I thank them.

The people who protest war, when the motives our government has for sending our brave service people to fight and die are in question, when they think the government is using our brave service people badly and sending them to die for the wrong reasons, these are the ones who fight for the lives and freedom of our service people.

A government that is able to send it's brave warriors to fight and die for the wrong reasons, and do it with impunity, with no accountability to anyone, that is a government that is based in tyranny.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 12:18 PM

It took a whole battalion of Marines to write that, Norton1? Wow. Imagine if a whole regiment got together to write poetry... Look out, Shakespeare!

"The troops" chose to invade Iraq, illegally, Norton1. They also chose to kill, maim, humiliate, and otherwise inconvenience the Iraqi people. They didn't have to do it, but they chose to. Which makes them not heroes, but thugs and war criminals. You know, bad people. The sort of people our govt. claims it's there to remove. They don't deserve support for their actions, and I "pray" for their speedy defeat. :)

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 12:23 PM

Well, what comes thru loud and clear is the "with us or against us" rhetoric of the Bush administration. It is flawed in that, if taken at face value, then freedom and liberty are already dead. This seems to be the same old disussion about the "spitting incident" which was allowed to snowball into the big massive PR campaign to divide the masses. And it did.

I'm not going to get into that one again but will say that I spend last Sunday at the VA hosputal with Claymore and those that remember that discussion would perhaps find it hard to believe that we have both reached accross that divide as friends.

Now, some of us feel it is our *patriotic* duty to question a foriegn policy that has put our brothers and sisters in harms way and I count myself as in that rather large group.

With that said, all that is left to me is prayer. I asked you, Steve, for your daughter's first name so that I wouldn't have to refer to her as Steve's daughter but you must have felt that was none of my business. It doesn't matter, my wife and I start each day with a long prayed in which we ask that God look after our service people, We name as many as we know. We also pray for Mr. Bush, and for the other leaders of nations effected by this war. Prayer is a powerful vehicle and for those of us who of Faith we don't think of it as trite. It is part of our lives. God wants us to have a relationship with Him and we can't do that if we're not willing totake those steps. God has so much work to do in these difficult times and He needs to here from us.

Now I hope I have not offended anyone here. I have not meant to. My motives are pro-human, caring, loving and not of self but of service.
And I will look into the links that Kat has provided to see what else my wife and I can do here, other than shut up and wave a flag.

Peace.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 12:27 PM

To be fair, Lepus Rex, a lot of the service people from the US who are fighting in Iraq really didn't want to go there. They are good people who trust their government to do the right thing. If they are wrong in doing this, it's not because of a character flaw on their part, or because they are bad in any way. They are human beings who are doing their best in a crazy world, just like you and me.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Amos
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 12:58 PM

Peter:

It is blindingly obvious that the United States forces are out to conquer -- beat into submission -- the forces defending the Hussein regime in Iraq.

I don't think anyone wants to beat anyone else there into submission outside that segment, except possibly Saddam et fils.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Peter T.
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 01:18 PM

Conquer means to do what we will. We will bring you a freedom of our designing, within parameters determined by us. You are not allowed to do what you want to do, make your own mistakes, build your own weapons, be independent of our will. We cannot allow that, even if the rest of the world disagrees, because it is too dangerous to let you go on being independent of our will. We will bring you good government, by the Halliburtons, for the Bechtels, and of the Exxons. Because we are good people, and love you, and know what is best for you. We determine, you do not get to determine this. You forget that we gave you money, weapons, helped put your leader in to begin with, and now we are removing him. You had no say in this before, and you have no say in this now, and if you believe you will have a say in it next time, you have a memory as short as a citizen of the United States. Any human beings, also known as "forces", that belong to you, who do not wish to do our will, will be killed. If you resist this as well, we will kill you, and replace you with people who will do our bidding. Are there any parts of this you do not understand, you foolish people? Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 01:19 PM

If they didn't want to go there, Carol, they didn't have to. No-one put guns their heads. If they oppose the war, but went anyway because they "trust their government to do the right thing," they are either idiots, or naïve in the extreme. (And I consider extreme naïveté to be a character flaw) The rest are either bloodthirsty psychopaths or... no, I thought there was another group, but that about covers it.

I have a small amount of sympathy for the idiots, but screw the rest.

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Amos
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 01:23 PM

Peter:

An eloquent summation of arrogance, old and new.

But your implication that the Saddam regime has done any less is perhaps disingenuous.

Or is it your sense that the regime of fear and extraordinarily brutal torture and mysterious disappearances which was the character of Iraq hitherto was completely voluntary? I seriously hope that is not your premise.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: SINSULL
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 01:32 PM

NortonI - I will not allow myself to be backed into the same corner I found myself in in the 60s. I am against this war. It is in my opinion an illegal, aggressive invasion of another sovereign state. BUT I support our troops and pray for their safe return. Your daughter is in my prayers.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Peter T.
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 01:47 PM

Of course not, not voluntary at all. Neither are the governments of the Congo (3.5 million people dead and counting), North Korea (3 millions and counting), China (50 million and counting, including 2 million in Tibet), Iran (who knows); our current gallant allies Kyrgistan, Turkmenistan, Kazakhstan (hideous tyrannies, millions dead), and the list go on.....Why this hideous tyrant? Because we want to. He was our hideous tyrant, and now he isn't. He strayed. That is all. What matters is we want to. That makes it right.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: artbrooks
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 01:58 PM

Blaming the soldiers on the ground for the invasion of Iraq, illegal and aggressive or not, is rather like blaming the clerk in the convenience store for selling a pack of cigarettes because they cause cancer. My personal opinion is that this war is wrong, but I choose to reserve my dislike for Mr. Bush and the rest of the politicians.

I also choose to continue to believe that our troops, including the British and Australians in Iraq and the Czechs, Germans and others in rear support, will continue to be as sensitive as possible to the need to preserve the lives, safety and property of the civilian population. I assume that those who believe that there cannot be anything positive about the US military have noticed that a number of them have lost their lives already for thinking that people dressed as civilians are always noncombatants.

I also believe that we will return the country to local control as rapidly as possible. It may be that I am living in a fool's paradise, but I believe that Mr. Bush cares more about public opinion...and his chances for reelection in 20 months...to do otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: toadfrog
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 02:18 PM

Carol C: I agree with you, 100%.

Lepus: With friends like you, who needs an enemy?

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: SINSULL
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 02:19 PM

An added thought: this time I will not stand quietly by while the men and women who gave up an arm or a leg, an eye or their sanity in fighting this war get shuffled through mediocre health care facilities or worse tossed out on the street to roam sick and homeless.

Funds for veterans are being cut as we create new veterans in this war. Who the hell is going to take care of these people? Who is going to see to it that they receive the best care and are not left to their own devices to fight a government bureaucracy and miles of red tape?

A tax cut? Bullshit! Guarantee them medical care for life. And give the same to the veterans of the Gulf War who suffer from the non-existant "Gulf War Syndrome". I have personally spoken with some who are sick, homeless, and in total despair.

So wave your flags, tie up your yellow ribbons but make damn sure you are willing to be there when the glory days are over and there are sick, wounded, mentally ill people to care for.

Norton1 - I do support out troops. I am angry at our government for using them and then throwing them away. I pray that your daughter will come home safe and whole and healthy.
SINS

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: artbrooks
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 03:14 PM

SINSULL: mediocre health care facilities? Nonsense. Veterans of this war, as with all prior wars, will have access to the VA Health Care System. I'm a former VA employee (and a disabled veteran) and I have excellent health insurance. I choose to go to the VA since the Albuquerque Medical Center is affiliated with the University Medical School and the care I receive is as good as I would get anywhere else in my city. (And the VA bills my insurance.) The VA, on the average, consistently receives higher scores on the surveys conducted by the Joint Commission of the Accreditation of Health Care Organizations.   The VA treats Gulf War veterans, and all other veterans, with identifiable physical and psychological symptoms, and pays monetary compensation for those conditions that are related to military service and have been authorized by Congress.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 03:22 PM

"...they are not there to change anyone's religion."

That depends how you define religion. I suspect that worship of "the free market" is probably the fundamental religion within the seats of power in our societies, rather than a Christianity which profoundly challenges the validity of such worship as a foundation for a humane society.

Incidentally, and apropos of nothing, it's very strange
to have troops stuck in the middle of a desert, hundreds of miles from the sea, and called "marines"...

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 03:26 PM

artbrooks: I've heard that VA benefits are going to be cut. I don't think that Dubya cares as much about the troops as he does balancing his budget without raising taxes.

Lepus Rex-The enlisted soldiers do, in fact, have to go where they are deployed. There are rather serious consequences for failure to do so. If you expect them to never have enlisted at all, consider that many joined as a way to pay for college, during a period when there was no reason at all to believe they would be required to fight an unjust war.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: artbrooks
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 04:12 PM

At last report (March 25, 2003), the proposed cuts had been shot down in Congress, and there was actually going to be an increase in medical care spending.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 04:29 PM

If Mr. Bush's tax cut plan goes into effect the big loosers will be our Vets. Yep, to the tune of $14B over the by the end of the decade. That's alot of dough.

And for the winners? Guess...

Bobert

p.s. Sorry for the thread creep but I thought the issue that Sinsull brought up could use a dollar figure. This was in theis morning's Washington Post, incidently.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: artbrooks
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 04:43 PM

Bobert, I found that figure in Broder's editorial column. Is it somewhere factual?

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 06:26 PM

This is from the Greenwich, CT TIMES, dated today:

After a congressional committee passed a budget proposing deep cuts for veterans benefits two weeks ago, the House and Senate revised it, instead increasing funding for veterans by nearly $4 billion for 2003-04. Veterans' groups and sympathetic legislators had lobbied to delete cuts totaling $15 billion over a 10-year period, including benefits and pensions for disabled veterans, according to Steve Thomas, a spokesman for the American Legion National Headquarters in Washington, D.C. The increased funding is part of a budget that will be negotiated by a joint congressional committee and will almost certainly be maintained or increased, U.S. Rep. Christopher Shays, R-Bridgeport, said.

I also read in our local paper that our VA hospital has over 400 veterans waiting to see a primary care physician because this VA hospital has been unable to hire another doctor.

Lepus, you are being disingenuous. It is never as black and white as you seem to think. As someone else noted there are very serious consequences if one was to refuse to do as commanded in the armed services. Also, most soldiers have others to think of, i.e. families, etc. before they go to extreme measures and get courtmartialed or worse.

This war is wrong, wrong, wrong. PeterT, the last bit you posted was brill and spot on. It is the leaders who are causing this mess we must blame and do something about, not the soldiers they command.

Well said, Sins!

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST,Norton1
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 06:46 PM

Marines is spelled with a capital "M" for those that do not know. And Lepious Rexious - species obnoxious. You talk pretty badly from what you perceive to be the anonymity of the internet. Did you know that any administrator can locate you right down to your home address and phone number from any of your postings? I'm betting money that I know someone that could do that from the PM you say you sent to me.

And if you really are so brave perhaps you'd like to tell the Marines who wrote the poem how you perceive it in person? Or maybe even a representative of them? I thought not - makes you just aboout as big a hero as that fat guy who gained a little notoriety at the oscars. Big mouth when hiding - you ain't shit Leper.

These men and women may or may not be doing what any of you believe to be right - you asked what they thought and I found out for you. No more and no less. And not a one of you would be able to say what you are right now without the ancesters of these men and women doing what they thought was correct back in the 1700s. This fight in Iraq could be the actual beginning of Iraqi independance for all you Einstein's know.

So - see you all on the next thread - this one's dead in my opinion.

Oh yeah - Bobert - I'd just as soon you pray for what you want. I don't want any mixed messages going up to the Big Guy on my kid.


Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 06:46 PM

artbrooks:

Heck if I know how accurate it is. I picked it from the same source that you noted. We'll just have to see how it shakes out. A lot depends on wheather or not Bush will have to come back to Congress in two weeks to pay for another 30 days of war. The $74.9B is for just the first 30 days. We do know this about Bush, he talks the talk but writes checks like a man with no arms.

At any rate, I don't think (based on past history) that the US government is all of a sudden going to put their money where their mouths are in treating not only the usuall medical needs of its Vets but also the strange array of sypmtoms generally called Gulf War Syndrome.

But I hope I'm wrong.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 06:52 PM

Norton1-Truly impressive. First, you make what are either poorly veiled threats or simply pointlessly obnoxious statements regarding the lack of anonymity on the Internet. Then, you call someone a coward because they're not stupid enough to deliberately provoke a fight with trained soldiers. You finish your post by taking your marbles and going home because you're not winning. Your depth of intelligence and maturity have truly swayed me.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Amos
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 07:04 PM

Lurker:

You are a shortsighted and vitriolic dweeb, and are being insulting to boot.

I scarcely think you're in a position to discuss maturity and intelligence.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 07:10 PM

My dictionary (Concise Oxford ) has "marines" with the lower case initial. But then that'd be marines in general - perhaps as a term for a specific unit the upper case initial is the style.

This thread got me curious about the expression "Tell that to the marines", so I looked it up. Apparently it first crops up in Walter Scott's novel Redgauntlet - "Tell that to the marines, the sailors won't believe it". The implication being that, compared to sailors, the soldiers who used to ship with them were thought to be a bit gullible.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 07:18 PM

Bobert, I read that amount was for the time through Sept. 30th.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 08:22 PM

... taking your marbles and going home because you're not winning

Just like Dubya and the U.N.

Coincidence? I don't think so.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 08:28 PM

And not a one of you would be able to say what you are right now without the ancesters of these men and women doing what they thought was correct back in the 1700s.

This is simply not true. There is no reason to imagine that our rights would be any different than what the people of Canada enjoy if the people of the US hadn't fought the revolution back in the 1700s, and they enjoy pretty much the same freedoms as we do. Although if we were Canadians, I tend to doubt that we would be recieving threats of physical violence visited upon us for speaking our minds as you have done with Lepus Rex (insensitive as his posts are). I know you're under a lot of emotional stress right now, Steve, but that post was not worthy of you.

I know that you participated in the movement to stop the Vietnam War. You must have had a reason for doing that.

This fight in Iraq could be the actual beginning of Iraqi independance for all you Einstein's know.

I hope you're right.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST,Sam Adams
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 08:30 PM

It's funny how many messages I've seen from military people to the effect that "we're defending DEMOCRACY... so those of who you don't agree with us better sit down, shut up, love America or leave it, etc..."

Don't they see the contradiction?

"You have the right to free speech, so long as you're not actually stupid enough to use it." -- The Clash

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 08:51 PM

Kat:

Can't put my finger on the printed source but I have heard on two seperate occasions on news broadcasts that the $74.9B was for the first month.

Maybe someone else can shine some light on this.

Remember the earlier estimates of up to $200B from a source who no longed works in the Bush administration for divulging it?

Forum Lurker:

Whereas I tend to agree with you most of the time, in these most difficult times, we gotta have the patience with these folks who have somehow gotten control of the agendas. Stick with the issues and leave the rest alone. Sure, their side has a disporportionate number of knotheads, but they have hyjacked the deal and the only way we're gonna get it back is to not fall into their traps. I speak from experience, my friend, for they have baited me on an occasion. Chill, you're too smart slingin' mud... But keep on firing on values, morality, differences of idealogies. Okay? We need ya'!

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: wysiwyg
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 08:55 PM

Is it just me, or does Guest, Norton1 sound a little different from the Norton1 who recently posted about his just-deployed daughter and asked that we keep her in our thoughts?

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: SINSULL
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 09:04 PM

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/veteransresearch990419.html
http://www.cnn.com/HEALTH/9904/14/va.ethics/
http://www.mississippiwebsite.com/vahospitals.htm
http://www.mississippiwebsite.com/va_article.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: SINSULL
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 09:12 PM

Clicked too soon. Sorry.

Above are some articles on the current state of veteran's care in the US. In Maine, not only are VA hospitals scheduled to close but also Help Centers which offer assistance to vets applying for benefits. How does a vet without money or a car get to a center for assistance in a state with almost no public transportation?

"Born On The Fourth Of July" told the story of a Viet Nam vet's experiences upon his return to the US as a paraplegic. True story although I don't doubt that Hollywood had a hand in it.

I do know that drugs and mental illness plague the men who returned. Many of them ended up on the streets when the Reagan Administration emptied the asylums of those deemed capable of fending for themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Troll
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 09:23 PM

Hang on Steve. Don't let it throw you.
Lepus does it for shock value. He's been doing it ever since he came on the Forum. It doesn't seem to matter what the subject is, he has an offensive remark primed and waiting.
Forum Lurker, take a hike. Norton1 is exactly correct. I, too, doubt that Lepus would dare make his remarks personally to the people he so maligns.
As for pointing out that the Internet is not all that annonymous, it's simply a little reminder to everyone to be sensitive and polite when we communicate on Forums like this one. There are people who are not as civilized as we. ('Spaw excepted)
Steve has a child over there right now. How would YOU react under those circumstances to a post like Lepus'?

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 09:27 PM

America's streets are filled with homeless Vets. Yeah, in the time of war, there's no one more important but once the war is over the focus turns away. Sure, there are some good VA hospitals. When I was still in social work, the McGuire Hospital in Richmond was good. But for every good one there's a bad one, or a bad policy on following up on the effects of DU's and it's realtaionship to Gulf War Syndrome.

Like I said, I hope this time will be different, but the government, irregardless of the party in power, has a bad track record. And in these times with an economy that is shakey and an adminsitration not given toward spending money on the needs of the working and lower classes, from which our serive folk come, its a long shot that things will improve when these Vets come home...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 10:00 PM

Norton1-I'm sorry. My words were unwarranted.

Troll-I don't think Lepus would say that to a room full of Marines, either. I just don't look down on him that much. There's a fine line between cowardice and prudence, and it's hard to tell which side that falls on. I think Lepus is being rather impolite and bull-headed, and I would have no problem if Steve had attacked his intelligence for thinking that each and every soldier is personally responsible for the war. Honestly, I didn't know that Steve had a daughter in Iraq; my brain missed the connection. I'm not sure that his attack was warranted, no matter how brainless Lepus was being.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST,Norton1
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 10:25 PM

Forum Lurker - Thank you - apology accepted - Lepus must have intelligence for it to be attacked. And I'd suggest that he would not be willing to say what he said to a 60 year old former Marine either. I'd be willing to say that he would not say that to any service person or parent with a child in the Sand box. Lepus is simply a moronic jerk that loves to argue and fight - I'm in the mood to oblige him.

As far as an innuendo about privacy - his IP, accessable by the moderators and Joe Clones, would provide his home address and phone number in about 5 minutes. If the PM he sent me were threatening in the specific I could file a complaint with them and they could subpoena the information to file charges against him. So yes - it is a warning to everyone - be careful what you say. I'm not always the most polite either. But I daresay I've not threatened anyone.

CarolC - For your theory to be plausible we would have had to lose the War of Independence. So as my statement is based in reality - sorry friend - although I admire your patience and insistence. I also admire your cause.

Susan - It is me - I just got tired of Bobert's crap and arguing - he has an agenda that I respect. Peace. But his outlandish behavior leaves me not wanting his, or anyone elses, prayers that are not in harmony with success for the Americans over there (and my Daughter is an American). I've also got a brother up North with the Kurds. And my Daughter's husband is in the 4th Infantry Division that is just coming into Iraq to spearhead the drive to Bahgdad.


And for the rest - here is another e-mail from another Marine - Lepus - your friends over there are dying by the hundreds. Maybe they need your vitrioloc BS to help the cause? You could volunteer to be a shield - I hear that the Iraqi Ministry of Defense needs a few.



This is from an email that my son Jon (Marine--Somewhere in Iraq) sent to his wife -- and she forwarded it on to me.

I can't believe we have an internet set up out here in the field. The guys are lining up for probably a one time shot, but I hope it lasts. The only news we get here is from the BBC and they certainly are an arrogant and negative bunch. The press makes it look like we are getting ambushed at every turn and that we are at a standstill. Get the word out that this is BS because we are killing Saddam's troops by the hundreds and they are no match for us at all.

I've had one Marine get shot in the ankle but everyone else in the Company are OK. Let everyone know that we are in high spirits and we watch each others back here and we are taking care of business the
Marine way. I don't know exactly what the news agencies are saying back home about the war and I don't really care. I just want you to know the truth. We are fighting a bunch of militia, loyal to
Saddam, who wear civilian clothes, execute civilians and are guilty of all the other atrocities you may have heard about. But they are not slowing us down as we smash through any resistance every step of the way.

Again, we are all well and even though we don't particularly care what the press says, we hope the American people are behind us.

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 10:47 PM

Steve: My prayers for your family are *not* "outlandish". There are no "outlandish" prayers if they are for the safety and well being of those of which we pray. No smallprint here, my friend.

Bob(ert)

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST,Norton1
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 10:52 PM

"I also read in our local paper that our VA hospital has over 400 veterans waiting to see a primary care physician because this VA hospital has been unable to hire another doctor."

I wanted to clarify this - simply because the Veteran does not have a primary care provider does not mean the Veteran is not able to be seen. A walk-in appointment is usually available within 1-3 days. You just won't see the same Doc each time - but your file is still the same. And for emergencies the Veteran only needs to present at the ER for immediate care.

There is a lot of discussion about the VA and who they are mandated to see. It is the opinion of many that those who served in peacetime and have no service connected injuries should not be the responsibility of the VA. I tend to agree. But for those who served in wartime, and this has come to pass, they should receive care at the VA if they need it. Current rules state that troops serving in a hostile environment will be eligible to receive all of their health care free, for the first two years after release from active duty, from the VA.

This should accomplish a couple of things. First it will allow the VA to document all reported problems from those who were there. Second it will provide the clinical evidence for claims of the Veterans and expedite an abnormally slow process (that being claims).

The VA has very few facilities that are not able to meet the current needs. But President Bush is not a very good advocate for the Veteran. He is a good commander, in my opinion, but has not done well by the Veteran. Hopefully continued lobbying will suffice to rectify this. The President is creating a massive voting block and they will have something to say about their care.

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: artbrooks
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 10:55 PM

SINSULL, your first 2 articles refer to a problem about 4 years ago in which a research program wasn't keeping the proper documentation. The problem was serious, but the investigation revealed that it was strictly an issue of not obtaining the proper permissions in the proper form, not that any "experiments" actually took place, and there was no impact on proper patient care. The next 2 are from an individual's website, and he clearly has personal issues with the VA.

One of the VA's strongest critics and most persistent watchdogs is the DAV.
Here is what they had to say about VA health care last year. My own experience (as administrative staff rather than as a patient) is that medical providers, especially physicians, won't work for what the VA can pay...typically about $100,000-$120,000 per year for a doctor. The national nursing shortage isn't helping, nor is the fact that the general physical condition of many VA patients means they need more care than the typical American.   

I'm not sure about closing VA facilities in Maine. There is only one hospital in the state, at Togus (Augusta). It is very small and dates back to the Civil War. This will get you information of that VA and others in Maine and New England.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 10:56 PM

Lepus was gone for a few months and it seems, since his return, that he has had a hair-trigger temper. I think I remmeber when he used to post half-way decent remarks and always a link to pix of his beautiful cats. Don't know what has changed, but it sure doesn't excuse such rudeness.

I think it would be good for all of us to take a deep breath and try to remember to be extra-patient with one another. We are all in tumultous times, with a lot of fear-mongering rhetoric, full of dire warnings, ratcheting up our emotions. That has been going on for over a year. So, we are all a bit frazzled. At heart, we have our music, which brought us together, so let's try to remember that and give each other a little breathing space, okay? Of, course, this is just a suggestion, but I will try to take my own advice, starting right now...


~~breath in~~~ ~~breath out~~
ahhhh...

Thanks ya'll,

luvyakat

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST,Norton1
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 10:59 PM

Bob - I'm not much in the mood to cater to this. I said nothing about your prayers being "outlandish" - I said that your behavior is - and as one of the folks who has "baited you" a time or two I'll pass on any formal request for assistance. You do what you want to - like I said earlier - I'll take care of my own with my own.

And ask any Marine if the "M" is capitalized. Your dictionary not withstanding - as a Marine I'll say that it is my opinion that it is ALWAYS capitalized. But I'm not really caring whether you personally do or don't capitalize it.

Steve