BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 11:00 PM

Hey Steve. I think that debate would be a very interesting one to have over a couple of beers when you're under less stress than you are right now. Maybe some day.

I used to be married to a Vietnam Vet. And I was more recently in a significant relationship with a Vietnam Vet. I've seen what the experience of fighting in a war can do to a person. And I have a nineteen year old son. That, combined with what I saw happening during the Vietnam War; the lies we were fed then, and the lies we're being fed now, might be a part of what gives me my patience and insistence.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Amos
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 11:33 PM

Let's settle down.

1. A marine -- lower case m -- is any member of a land force carried on ships.

A Marine -- upper case -- is a member - whether active or not -- of the United States Marine Corps, an association of military fighters who have a reputation unrivalled on the planet for resourcefulness, effectiveness, a disdain for bureaucracy, courage and perseverance and, yes, deadliness in battle.

2. Steve -- the email from your son is heartwarming, but I am moved to ask when it was sent. It doesn't make any difference, exactly -- from a military point of view, the forces deployed in Iraq are pulling off a pretty amazing job. Now me, I hate being at war; but I can still say that I am awe struck by the courage and effectiveness of those who do the dirty work once it starts. I won't pretend ther eis no war, nor that there is no cause for one.

I only hope that in the overall net effect, their ideals will be realized; because they are paying a huge price to make the world better, according to their lights, and I would weep to see them get gypped by post-war tapdancing at home or internationally. I found it hopeful that the Senate rejected the VA cuts but I think we need to go a bit further than that.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 11:40 PM

Oh, Christ, aren't I the popular subject. Let's see...

Forum Lurker, Kat, Carol,, et al: Yeah, you're right. There are serious consequences for refusing to fight. But it is still a choice, made by the soldier. Let's pretend for a moment that I am a soldier. I'm informed that tomorrow, I'll be sent to Iraq, an illegal war that I strongly oppose, to say the least. In my mind, I have two choices:

1. Follow the orders of my superiors, fullfilling the promise I made to my country.

or...

2. Tell my superiors that I refuse to fight, and accept my punishment.

I would choose #2. I would rather spend the rest of my fucking life in prison than become a goon, a monster, in a military hit-squad. I would rather die than kill innocents. At least I would die with my fucking humanity intact, and at least those who survived me would be able to say that I wasn't a murderer. If you think this makes me "disingenuous," "brainless," or whatever, fine. You're entitled to your opinions. I disagree.

And despite having been raised in an extremely patriotic family, I just don't understand this bizarre compulsion to mindlessy, unquestioningly, "support the troops?" Support the troops, WHY? If "the troops" are doing bad things in our names, why support that? I support our troops in Bosnia & Herzegovina, and I support our troops in Kosova. I would support our troops in a real, legal war against a real threat. This is not that war, and these war criminals do not deserve our support.

Troll: I'm not trying to "shock" anyone. I'm expressing how I feel, in the language that comes naturally to me. As a fellow asshole, I'd think you would understand.

And Norton1... whatever. Your lightly veiled threats of physical violence and rambling, incoherent posts are only making me pity you. You seem to be either insane, senile, or both, and you need some professional help.

And if you really want to stalk me, you little creep, knock yourself out. Both my name (Will Anderson) and place of residence (Minnesota) are public knowledge, and can be found in many of my posts over the years, along with other juicy bits of personal information. My picture is available here, and will surely help you to track me down, like a dog, as they say. I have a shaved head these days, but otherwise I look the same. In fact, if you really want to hunt me down and prove to me what a violent badass you are, find that cookie, PM me, and I'll tell you EXACTLY where you can find me.

---Lepus Rex

PS Kat: I didn't go anywhere for a few months... I've posted regularly here, at least several times a month, since May, 2000. And I've always been an asshole. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Amos
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 12:29 AM

Dang - a self-aware asshole! That's one for the evolutionary cosmology books!

Thanks, Will, for speaking up plain.

I would submit that this war has highly immoral beginnings, but it also has some very moral vectors to it. I think the common thread of those who support it -- those with any discrimination -- is the plain observation that we are facing the meanest son of a botch in the family of nations and th eworst facist dictator since Hitler. I know, there is an element of demonizing in this description, but they are also traits that can be substantiated with facts.

Because we began it badly is no reason to end it badly.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 08:41 AM

http://www.chp.ca/CHP-Communique/communique_10_12.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 08:54 AM

Lepus Rex:

Hey, my brother, step back for just a minute, if you will and consider the following:

You would make choice #2 from a much different perspective than the twenty-something and teenagers who are in Iraq. Their perspective does not give them the wisdom that someone who lived thru the Vietnam War would have. And your perspective is not one formed in video arcades where violence is sanitized and at the end of the game no one is really dead or injured and every one goes home at night.

When you couple that to the excellent PR work the Bush machine has pumped out ("with us or against us", "evil dictator", "gassed his own people", "mushroon cloud over our head", etc, etc.) and the bold satements that this war was just going to be a mop up operation, these kids really haven't been put in a position to make choices.

And many of these kids enrolled in the military as a way to get out of the ghetto. They were highly recruited in their impressionable years in high school and they never thought that anyopne would come along and get the US into a ground war. Look at the high percentage of black folks and minorities and you'll see what I mean. They just got caught up in some funky sh*t.

So, my friend, I would hope that you would try to see the trap in which these kids got caught and not impose your wisdom and life's experiences on these kids.

The blame falls squarely on those of our generation.

Peace,

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 09:16 AM

Lepus Rex-Do you honestly think that anyone over there WANTS to kill innocents? Do you think they believed that they WOULD be killing innocents when they went over there? Or is it maybe possible that they believed the war would be quick and clean, like all of their commanders, experienced military men, were telling them?

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 09:43 AM

"But I'm not really caring whether you personally do or don't capitalize it."

No reason you should, and nor do I care much about that kind of stuff. Remember, we live in different countries - newspapers over here normally seem to use the lower case initial. I wasn't using it as some subtle way of disparaging the troops involved.

Anger directed at soldiers caught up in this kind of situation is misdirected. If there's anger around it ought to be directed at the people who give the orders, especially at the political level. All you can expect from people is that they do what they see as their duty, and for most soldiers that's going to mean following the orders they are given.

Obviously there are times when a soldier has a duty to refuse to obey some kind of orders - My Lai is an example - but it's not to be looked for except in exceptional circumstances, and exceptional people.

Incidentally I saw in the paper today that three British soldiers from 16 Air Assault Brigade in South Iraq have been ordered home for protesting that the war is killing innocent civilians, and are facing court martial - Three British soldiers sent home after protesting at civilian deaths

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Doktor Doktor
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 10:06 AM

Oh dear Mr norton (with a small n), Oh dear ..............

"............ Did you know that any administrator can locate you right down to your home address and phone number from any of your postings? ............. "

Oh dear oh dear.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Big Mick
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 10:26 AM

Lepus, one of the things you should have learned from the Vietnam experience is that one should never paint with a broad brush. When you characterize the young men and women over there as "thug" and "murderers of innocents" you are doing exactly what the Generals do to us to get us to fight. You are dehumanizing those that you oppose. I know any number of folks that are over there. By my count, Steve has three members of his nuclear family there. For him it is very personal. Were I in his position, I would be on you as well. When you speak in these terms, you are no better than those you oppose.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Greg F.
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 11:16 AM

Oh yeah, Right. Poor, poor Snortin' Norton- proponent of the 'Vee know vere you live! You haff relatives in Germany?' school of thuggism. He might try coming across as less of a loud-mouthed schoolyard bully. Sixty years old going on thirteen.

Also, he could try explaining to the members of his family overseas that most folks who are against how the troops are being USED by BuShite Junta don't have any animosity towards the soldiers and sailors themselves and hope they all get back in one piece. Perpetuating the "anti-war = anti-troops" fantasy BS only serves to widen the divide.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: katlaughing
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 11:28 AM

Bobert and Mick, unless Lepus has not been entirely truthful, according to various postings of his, he is still, barely, in his twenties, so not exactly coming from the experiences you thought. He looks fairly young in his pix, too.

Lepus, my mistake...I was thinking of someone else who posted links to cat pix, etc.

Norton, for the record JOE CLONES CANNOT ACCESS PERSONAL INFORMATION ABOUT ANY MEMBER.

Thanks...did ya all BREATH?

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST,Norton1
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 12:30 PM

"And if you really want to stalk me, you little creep,"

Getting a tad bit upset there Mr. Lepus?? You've not been threatened in any way shape or form with physical violence. My comment had to do with your statement about others that you most likely have not made to their faces. Yep that's integrity Mr. Lepus. Bad mouthing behind other's backs. VERY productive.

And to obligate yourself for something in a contractual agreement (signed no less) and then backing out because you don't like your choice - more integrity Mr. Lepus. LMAO - You are a sad sack - anything I might do regarding your words would be in a court of law. Under the auspices of libel and slander. Since I've not seen anything of that magnitude yet, but it appeared you were heading there, I figured a minor warning about the limitations of the internet might be in order. Sounds like you are wanting some form of a confrontation?? Tell me EXACTLY where I can find you? Tsk tsk tsk - tell you what Mr. Anderson. I'll do for you the same as I did for the other individual. I'll white you out of my life also. That way I have no need to respond to you and you'll have no need to further get your dander up.

kat - Joe Clones can access the IP - that's all it takes.

Mick - I have two family members over there. The third is a friend's son - I abbreviated the message to eliminate any mention of the original family. Sorry if that caused confusion.

Amos - The message came two days ago and as I said to Mick - sorry about the confusion. I have a Daughter, her husband, and a Brother there.

McGrath - Sorry if I offended you with my short comment. I've always liked the majority of your posts.

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Doug_Remley
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 12:33 PM

Thank you Kat for that enlightening perspective. The apparent rancor with little empathy was confusing.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 12:46 PM

You didn't offend me Norton - I just thought I might have offended you, and wanted to get it straightened out.

There's quite enough bad feeling around these days. Don't want to add to it by misunderstandings.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Greg F.
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 12:46 PM

Members of the Marines are incompletely educated about the history of the Corps. In addition to truly heroic efforts, it has been the perpetrator of some truly shameful actions as the shock troops of U.S. imperialism, historically invading foreign countries upon any pretext or whim of the U.S. Government or U.S economic interests. For example:

CHILE 1891, HAITI 1891, HAWAII 1893, NICARAGUA 1894,CHINA 1894-95, KOREA 1894-96,PANAMA 1895, NICARAGUA 1896,CHINA 1898-1900,PHILIPPINES 1898-1910, CUBA 1898-1902,PUERTO RICO1898, GUAM 1898, NICARAGUA 1898, NICARAGUA 1899, PANAMA 1901-14, HONDURAS 1903, DOMINICAN REPUBLIC 1903-04, KOREA 1904-05, CUBA 1906-09, NICARAGUA 1907, HONDURAS 1907, PANAMA 1908, NICARAGUA 1910, HONDURAS 1911, CUBA 1912, PANAMA 1912, HONDURAS 1912, DOMINICAN REPUBLIC 1914, MEXICO 1914-18, HAITI 1914-34,DOMINICAN REPUBLIC 1916-24, CUBA 1917, RUSSIA 1918-22, PANAMA 1918-20, HONNDURAS 1919, YUGOSLAVIA 1919, GUATEMALA 1920, HONDURAS 1924-25, PANAMA 1925, CHINA 1927-34, LEBANON l958, DOMINICAN REPUBLIC 1965-66, & etc & etc. Additional examples pre-date and post-date these.

It would be a real service were they made aware of their entire history- the good AND the bad. They could still be the few and the brave, but possibly a bit less hubristicly proud. t might also provide them with some insight into why much of the world doesn't trust the U.S.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: katlaughing
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 01:25 PM

Sorry, Steve, joe clones CANNOT access IPs.

WolfieVN, The apparent rancor with little empathy was confusing.?? Sorry, I am missing the refernce. Can't tell if it is irony or genuine.:-)

I AM sorry I used all caps to make the point about joe clones, but the mistaken ideas of what we can and cannot do gets to me sometimes. My apologies for shouting, Steve, et alia.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Doug_Remley
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 02:37 PM

Sorry, Kat. I was referring to the general comments by Lepus. Your comments about his probable age seem to resolve many questions.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: katlaughing
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 02:41 PM

Thanks for explaining, WolfieVN, I appreciate it.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 03:17 PM

"There is a minority of intellectual pacifists whose real though unadmitted motive appears to be hatred of Western democracy and admiration of totalitarianism. Pacifist propaganda usually boils down to saying that one side is as bad as the other but if one looks closely at the writings of younger intellectual pacifists, one finds that they do not by any means express impartial disapproval but are directed almost entirely against Britain and the US. Moreover they do not as a rule condemn violence as such, but only violence used in defense of Western countries." - George Orwell (in 1945), quoted in a letter to The Spectator

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST,Norton1
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 03:31 PM

Thanks for the clarification Sis - I was mistaken and my apologies for it.

GUEST - It has been documented somewhere, and I apologize for not having a link to it, about those you reference being in direct contact with the North Vietnamese during the Viet Nam War. These "intellectual pacifists" worked hand in hand with the North Vietnamese to keep Americans in a bad light to facilitate an ending to the war.

Oh yeah - just remembered - It's in a book called "Stolen Valor" - written by a Viet Nam Veteran about how the war cost my generation the social conventions normally accorded veterans doing a job for a country. I can't remember the author's name but he related this directly to the poor treatment by the peace folks back home towards the returning veterans and the subsequent poor treatment in the VA hospitals as documented in "Born on the Fourth of July" by Ron Kovic. And by a bunch of us who experienced first hand the deplorable treatment accorded the wounded.

I was unimpressed by the book but he did lay out a case, factual as hell, for the above scenario.

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Troll
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 04:09 PM

Greg, I think that it is utterly marvelous that you have never in your life done anything to harm another person. That must really free your conscience to be so pure of spirit. I think that most Marines are aware that there episodes in the Corps history that are less than sterling.
How kind of you to remind everyone and, at the same time, try to undermine Steve Nortons pride in the Corps and men with which he served.
You remind me of the definition of an auditor: One who comes out after the battle and bayonets the wounded.
I would wish you a nice day, but I don't think your smug satisfaction would allow you to accept it.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Doug_Remley
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 06:50 PM

Greg, and in answer to allusions to imperialism or empire by the U.S. there is a brief quote by Colin Powel that is apt:

When in England at a fairly large conference, Colin Powell was asked by the Archbishop of Canterbury if our plans for Iraq were just an example of empire building by George Bush. He answered by saying that,

"Over the years, the United States has sent many
of its fine young men and women into great peril to fight for freedom beyond our borders. The only amount of land we have ever asked for in return is enough to bury those that did not return."

It became very quiet in the room.

It is important to use terms wisely (by definition) and in context in an extremeley personal thread such as this. If you abjure the warrior's service when called, did you answer in the service of Peace beyond your front yard? Did you serve in the Peace Corps for two years to match our call from neighbors and peers? Did you serve the poverty-stricken in our own country with building homes or (ugh) picking up trash in an inner city ghetto? I didn't see you in Nicaragua to act as an observer for the first free election. You weren't in Russia when it needed our help in an unstable period of balkanization?

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: katlaughing
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 06:58 PM

Sorry, WolfieVN, but I think Powell is being a bit disingenuous about this time. We may not ask for land, but we do seem to get concessions which could include huge oil deposits, huge contracts for rebuilding what we destroy, and many other tangible and non-tangible things.

I really wish they wouldn't talk in *sound bites*. I wish they would use real rhetoric and drop the inciteful and judgemental BS.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Amos
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 07:18 PM

Kat:

What is you think "we" -- whoever that is -- are going to do with the oil that legally belongs to the nation of Iraq? Pump it out from under them? As far as I know the intention of this country is to buy some of it from them and see to it that the proceeds go into their economy, rather than into glory holes for their fearless leaders.

Am I missing something on this point?

A

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Doug_Remley
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 07:31 PM

Shoot, TAB was not a paragraph but submitted an unfinished message with a misspelling.

Greg, you certainly seem versed in the "crimes" of the USMC, though you forgot the atrocious execution/ambush of August Sandino in the 30's. It seems true that since the time of "honor" and "face" wars have increasingly become economically driven. Corporately driven to protect flow of profit-driven resources, if you will. And, the good people who should rule are the same that want nothing to do with the political process, nor can afford it. And yet, you call to task the young people ordered to serve, seeking to serve to improve their lot in life, without tasking the regimes that have taken millions upon millions of lives in this century. Have you seen the mass graves required for hundreds of thousands of unidenitified children? They are larger than soccer fields. THAT was the German siege of Leningrad.

And what did Lepus say, "Pretend I am a soldier" to examine two choices? That is as patently unreal as a man saying, "Pretend I am pregnant." Being a soldier in the throes of close combat are as surreal as a women feeling change, growth within and the fulfillment of birth.

Answers are not that easy.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 08:20 PM

I believe we're getting bogged down on just a speck on the time line here. If we look at our little planet and put a magnifying glass over the just the last two hundred years, we find there is no other nation on Earth that has *taken* by force and continues to occupy as much land as the United States. But that is a side show.

Resources, now, are a different matter. The US has done a good job of coralling more than it's share (based on population and land mass) without having to occupy those areas of the world. And they have been smart enough in the past to corral these resources from countries that have gone from one dictator to one attempted democracy to one military coup and back and forth and mix and match. Doesn't matter. What matters is that the US contiunes to get its hands on the bootie, which it seems to always do. Of course, having a big stick makes the job that much easier.

Sure, the US would love to have some other dictator in Iraq. They grew bored with Saddam. Or they'd take a democracy or oligarchy or just about anything. Then the sqabbling would be between *those* folks, the US would look like an "impartial" party and meanwhile, back at the ranch, the oil would flow to the US and it's friends de jour.

Problem is, that the small minority of folks that have concocted this plan, is that it is a bad plan. The reason it will fail is because eventually the American working class will see that, just like the rest of the world's resources being tapped by Boss Hog, his labor is, too. Yeah, their won't be enough country musci, MASCAR or made-in-China American flags to save the greedy. Yes, their little "redistribution of income" scheme will eventually squeeze Joe Sis Pack to the point that he will have had enough. Right now, he's happy.

Check back in in a few years....

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: SINSULL
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 08:25 PM

There are five Veteran's Homes in Maine offering care from rehab through permanent housing. These services were in danger of fund cuts. Two Service Offices - the ones a veterans goes to for assistance in getting his/her benefits - were scheduled to close (Machias and Portland, I believe). These have been saved through a last minute transfer of $250,000 from the Free Election Fund.

200,000 vets have been waiting an average of six months for their initial health exam. The proposed solution is to cut benefits to high income vets whose health problems are not service related. High income is defined as $30-35,000/year.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Doug_Remley
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 08:31 PM

Kat, I don't think Colin was being disingenuous in his remark to the Archbishop; nor, that it was a "sound-byte." He had not participated in the uglier side of war in his first tour. On his second he was a young operations officer for the 11th Light Infantry in Qua Ng Ai province and wanted to see the men on the ground by personally delivering soda rations which had been previously been witheld to sell at rear area clubs. On hearing a unit was deeply involved and running out of ammunition, he personally helped change the load to deliver small arms resupply, landing while medevacs would not. This is not the venue for specifics, but he notes an epiphany in chapter six, the first few pages of his book "My American Journey." The man is erudite, a quick thinker, and honest to a fault. His words were not in service to a political end. I am sure he is not happy serving his present master.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Greg F.
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 08:54 PM

Wolfie-

I think you're (willfully?) misinterpreting my point. Nowhere did I "abjure the warrior's service when called", "call to task the young people ordered to serve" or condone or express approval for "the regimes that have taken millions upon millions of lives in this century". I'm just suggesting a more balanced look at the U.S.'s role in world affairs over the last 170 years or so. Whitewashing the country's military adventurism or pretending it didn't exist isn't the least helpful.

Powell was correct as far as his statement went: the U.S. did not ASK, it simply took. California, Puerto Rico, etc. And it IS disingenuous to suggest that real estate is the only asset of a country worth taking (it is usually the least valuable, and a real pain in the ass to administer)or that annexing territory is the only means by which a country can be exploited. Powell simply talked around the question. This sort of circumlocution isn't helpful, either.

Finally, this isn't about me. What I have seen, what I have or have not done personally over the years you have absolutely no way of knowing- it might surprise you. But it would not make any substantive difference to the points under discussion.

Best, Greg

Best, Greg

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Doug_Remley
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 09:14 PM

Oh, Bobert!

Your first statement is patently ridiculous and without the truths of historical reality! I assumed only the false leaders of the Russian people rewrote history in our lifetime but, apparently, false statements shouted loud enough create truth out of fiction wherever there is the bullhorn of self-justification. You must believe the Soviet hegemony was due to free elections before it balkanized. Or, that the two hundred forty million Russians who have died from the beginning of the century were caused by our bullets. Or, that U.S corporations are the sole cockroaches of our planet.

Nothing is said of the German search for "liebesraum" by force, or the Japanese Rape of Nanking in its forceful attack on Korea, China and Indochina, Malaya, Burma and India, or the Philippenes.

Yes, we are stuck on a relatively brief timeline. The federation of states you attack has only existed for a brief span of history.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 09:30 PM

Reread, Wolfie. You're in too much of a hurry here, my friend, to impress.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Doug_Remley
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 09:52 PM

Greg,

I could only respond to the words I saw printed as I do not know you, or you, me. It is unusual to meet people who agree to disagree and I have not been disrespectful of this nor have I the intent. I DO respond when histories or philosophies are presented falsely. Through personal experience, I urge each to to read Powell's statement, in that time and in that place, simply, for his words, without ascribing ulterior motive. Sometimes a man does nothing but bare his soul.

This had to be answered separately from othe questions. No, I do not wilfully misinterpret to play devil's advocate. Too many play that game as it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Doug_Remley
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 09:59 PM

"If we look at our little planet and put a magnifying glass over the just the last two hundred years, we find there is no other nation on Earth that has *taken* by force and continues to occupy as much land as the United States. But that is a side show."

Bobert, my reponse stands.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: JudyR
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 10:06 PM

Sinsull -- Ron Kovic, whose story was told in "Born in the Fourth of July" lives out here in Southern California, and has been telling his story at every large antiwar demonstration(unfortunately, there are so many protesters, it's been hard to get close enough to the speakers to hear, much less the podium.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 10:07 PM

WolfieVN-Strictly speaking, though, the U.S. is the country which has seized and kept the largest amount of territory. Neither the Japanese-occupied areas of China nor the Soviet satellites were as large, nor as long-occupied, as the total breadth of the United States, which was almost entirely taken by force. We do also consume more resources per capita than the inhabitants of any other nation in the world.

While Powell is correct that we have never asked land of those people we came to aid, he fails to note that on numerous occasions (Mexican War, Spanish-American War, the entire history of our dealings with the Amerindians) we have seizes the land we wanted by force, and that most of our interventions were done partly if not not entirely for self-preservation. It is no coincidence that we failed to enter either world war until our own citizens were attacked.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 11:08 PM

And just to reiterate what F.L. has confirmed, wolfieVN, when one gets beyond the boundary lines and into *resources* we find another indisputable reality that the US controls ore than its share of the world's resources. And when we pull out the magnifying glass yet again, we find that it's the upper 1% are those in control...

And if we up the magnification, we find that these 1% not only have control over a large portion of tghe Earth's resources but also the resources of the working class in the US.

Hmmmmmm, Part 897?

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Amos
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 11:21 PM

Well, just to keep things in balance, let me remind you that the people of the United States have also added huge amounts of value to the world in production, intiative, invention, aid by the bilions of dollars, and -- for better or for worse -- music and films. We have also added some truly extraordinary value in literature and art to the net assets of civilization on Earth. Let's just keep this in perspective -- it is just possible that the Grand Experiment of letting people live relatively free lives -- which started here -- might have something to do with the wealth the nation has accumulated. There are other countries with more natural resources, and larger populations, but there aren't any that have shown the spark of innovation and making things happen that the American spirit has brought forth.   I hate to sound like a jingoist but I hate one-sided criticism -- it violates my sense of fair play even when I do it! :>) And as wlel as a huge chain of offenses, they have, collectively, a huge chains of "ways to make life better" to their credit, which many of us are happy to enjoy.

So let's just be a bit balanced when we start upbraiding the nation for all its horrible sins. Its citizens by and large are doing well in life. Despite its natural resources, an Iraqi professional is fortunate to earn $45 a month, if I recall correctly. Just for one example.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: artbrooks
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 11:48 PM

SINSULL, I think those are State owned and operated facilities, not VA/federal ones.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Doug_Remley
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 12:02 AM

Forum Luurker... even the simplest functions of addition and subtraction in geographic terms task your first statement. Historically, of the four continents where trans-continental expansion was possible, technology based socieites prevailed where there was a mixture of societies seeking the same territories. Certainly, crimes against humanity were present in all cases. Not just our own expansion. I or you cannot absolve the sins of others, or change them. I strongly object tasking only our own people when evil is rampant, worldwide today.

I am not pleased with President Bush, but the September 11th attacks on all of us DID take place on his watch. Europe stood silent at the ethnic cleansing in the prior Jugoalavia, but Europe has its own agenda. In an apparently lawless world who will be first to say "enough is enough?" What value to us in any way is Afghanistan? What corporations, what monoliths are there? Maybe we do not trust our government, but who better to trust than the young men and women we raised in our image? Are some of us to say they have not learned from our errors in the past? Have the grace not to laugh up a sleeve at what some think of as an oxymoron, but, whatever its leadership, our American Military is the best trained, most intelligent and capable, available force to begin instituting a rule of law in a nuclear world with weapons of mass destruction. They have pledged their very lives not to Bush, or the past, but to that cause.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: DougR
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 12:08 AM

Lepus: in your response to a messages posted by kat you describe yourself as a "ass-hole."

By God, I think you're right!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Doug_Remley
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 12:08 AM

BRAVO, Amos! I wanted to add that but hit the wrong clicky-thing again

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 12:45 AM

WolfieVN-I wasn't passing moral judgement, just pointing out the facts. Count acreage and you'll see my point.

Amos-I think that our wealth and freedom are somewhat mutually reinforcing. It's possible for us to be free because we can afford it. Conversely, because we're free, we can create the capitalist market, which encourages large scale spending, boosting the economy a la Keynes. Also, while I'll readily agree that our technological innovation is impressive, I can't say the same for our art. While we are primarily responsible for the rise of good speculative fiction, most of what is actually called art nowadays, whether literary, musical, or visual, far exceeds Sturgeon's Rule, and is entirely composed of crap. Europe at least has the glory days of classical Greece, Shakespeare, and honest traditional music to look back on, even if it did spawn Dadaism.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Doug_Remley
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 03:30 AM

Lurker: Tsk. Tsk. Not only was acreage but square kilometers were checked again before a statement was put to print in refutation. One must be careful in tossing off facts so disdainfully.

I find dwelling on the sins of those long dead hard to understand in any culture. Must the sins of fathers be borne by their children?

Be very careful discussing a birth of capitalism, referring to your note to Amos in the same breath. This is not the thread to discuss such things, nor is it a thread to get into a fine arts issue, where I will paste you to a wall on your subjective statements.

The subject of this thread is that a father's children, a veteran in his own right, sought to serve their country in their own time. The units with which they were serving were called into harm's way. He shared their youthful poetry with us, with an explanation of why he did so. No more, no less.

To have a daughter in a zone of confict where missiles can reach beyond a front line can only compound his grief and fears.

I am impressed to find a site where so many peaceloving people have gathered with those who have served. I am surprised at the many who admit service to their country, whether happy with their past, or not; or, the unusual number of ground-pounders who sought peace after service. I carried my Hoehner chromatic (the piano didn't fit in the rucksack) as a young man, finding this site so many years later in search of a tune almost forgotten.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 09:02 AM

Must the sins of fathers be borne by their children?

Not at all. But the MEMORY of those sins should be kept alive.
Imparts a sense of perspective, cuts down the tendency toward self-righteousness and helps to keep future generations from actiing like complete jackasses.

Best, Greg

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Peg
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 09:52 AM

Just wanted to say there are some interesting perspectives being expressed in this thread.
Bobert, I particularly liked your discussion of the generational differences between the armed service personnel of today and those who served in Vietnam. Very apt and insightful.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 10:32 AM

DougeR, you make me smile!

WolfieVN, you might be interested in reading this old thread, in particular Big Mick's posting of 27 Feb 1999 9:20am: click here.

And, just so you know, while it is admirable to try to keep a thread going on subject, quite often we will take off on what we call "thread creep" and whole other realms wind up being delved into, whether they follow the original intent or not. Herding Mudcatters in threads is like trying to herd cats...*cain't* be done.:-)

All the best,

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST,Norton1
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 11:20 AM

It is nice to see a civil discussion going on here. Artbrooks is correct about the state facilities that are struggling.

wolfieVN - I can't say I am grieving about the choices my children have made. I taught them to think for themsleve, make a rational choice as they saw it, and then to plant their feet and stand for something. I have kids in harms way and I have a Daughter in Portland who is protesting this war with every fiber of her being. All of my kids have made choices and they are standing up for them. It is with pride I love all of my children equally. I do worry about them though. All of them.

I don't have to agree with someone to respect their choices. But by the same token if I choose to not pay attention to jerks and a-holes, as defined by me, then that is also my right. As is it yours.

I've found over the years that I give folks a couple of chances. After that I'll forgive the instance but will never forget or allow that person another opportunity to involve themselves in my life. I'm getting too old to put up with my stupid choices of the same old thing from the same old jerks. And I do my best to remember that it is my choice to set myself up for that.

Well enough babbling - have a superb day -

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 02:37 PM

Bobert: Like Kat said, I'm 28, and so I'm still (*barely*) part of the generation that is fighting this war. As such, I think that I am in an excellent position to criticise the actions of my (*barely*) peers. I was raised on the same violent video games and anti-Islamic propaganda as these people, but I've somehow managed to avoid shooting up a van full of women and children. Youthful ignorance is not an excuse for murder.

And yes, Forum Lurker, I think that many of them DO want to kill what you or I might consider to be innocents, because they don't consider them to be innocents. Many of "our troops" joined up after 9/11 to fight a Muslim "enemy." On NPR's ATC yeterday, a tattoo artist talked about all the Christian, "crusader"-type tattoos he's been putting on US soldiers headed to Iraq. Even the veterans I know tell me that at least half of the soldiers they served with were racist, redneck psychopaths. These people don't deserve support.

Mick, that's an excellent point about dehumanising the opposition. But what would you call someone who illegally kills another person? "Thug" and "murderer" seem to fit here.

And would you really threaten to find/assault me, like Norton has, if you had kids in Iraq?

Doug, I remember when I used to defend you from flamers... Good to see you've learned to adapt so very well. :)

Oh, and Norton1. Can't forget you. No, I don't want a "confrontation" with you. If you were to follow up on your implied threats (And they were threats. Even people who like you criticised you for them.) and track me down, attack me, etc., I wouldn't fight you, no matter how hard you battered me with your walker. I have this "don't slug the aged" rule, you see.

I had a feeling you would back down once you realised that I am not, in fact, anonymous, and I was correct. It's good to know that you're just a gutless worm with a big mouth. I actually think more of you now than I did when I thought you were a crazed stalker. :)

---Lepus Rex

PS Kat, again: I'm not "barely" in my 20s 'til June, dammit.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Amos
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 03:03 PM

Lepus:

Virtually 30, man -- time to come of age!!

The human race has evolved a set of laws governing the conduct of war in a an often-vain attempt to prevent it from declining into barbarism.

I believe if you had been at that checkpoint, and that van had kept moving toward you in spite of warning shots, you probably would have pulled the trigger in a fit of panic, remembering what happened to your four colleagues who believed the peaceful taxi-driver the day before and ended up mincemeat on the sand. Not everyone is quite willing to experience that, you see.

Congratulations on three decades, and counting!

A