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BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines

GUEST,Norton1 30 Mar 03 - 09:49 AM
katlaughing 30 Mar 03 - 10:00 AM
Peter T. 30 Mar 03 - 10:37 AM
katlaughing 30 Mar 03 - 10:43 AM
Peter T. 30 Mar 03 - 11:12 AM
Amos 30 Mar 03 - 11:45 AM
Gareth 30 Mar 03 - 11:55 AM
Peter T. 30 Mar 03 - 12:02 PM
CarolC 30 Mar 03 - 12:06 PM
Lepus Rex 30 Mar 03 - 12:18 PM
Bobert 30 Mar 03 - 12:23 PM
CarolC 30 Mar 03 - 12:27 PM
Amos 30 Mar 03 - 12:58 PM
Peter T. 30 Mar 03 - 01:18 PM
Lepus Rex 30 Mar 03 - 01:19 PM
Amos 30 Mar 03 - 01:23 PM
SINSULL 30 Mar 03 - 01:32 PM
Peter T. 30 Mar 03 - 01:47 PM
artbrooks 30 Mar 03 - 01:58 PM
toadfrog 30 Mar 03 - 02:18 PM
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artbrooks 30 Mar 03 - 03:14 PM
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artbrooks 30 Mar 03 - 04:12 PM
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katlaughing 30 Mar 03 - 06:26 PM
GUEST,Norton1 30 Mar 03 - 06:46 PM
Bobert 30 Mar 03 - 06:46 PM
Forum Lurker 30 Mar 03 - 06:52 PM
Amos 30 Mar 03 - 07:04 PM
McGrath of Harlow 30 Mar 03 - 07:10 PM
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wysiwyg 30 Mar 03 - 08:55 PM
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katlaughing 30 Mar 03 - 10:56 PM
GUEST,Norton1 30 Mar 03 - 10:59 PM
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GUEST,Norton1 01 Apr 03 - 11:20 AM
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Bobert 01 Apr 03 - 10:25 PM
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Ireland 02 Apr 03 - 08:45 AM
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GUEST,Norton1 02 Apr 03 - 10:37 AM
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Lepus Rex 03 Apr 03 - 04:16 PM
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GUEST,The Rock.... 03 Apr 03 - 04:20 PM
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Subject: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST,Norton1
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 09:49 AM

Someone on a thread a bit ago asked if the protests were hurting the men and women tasked to fight the war - here's your answer. I won't print what my Daughter said to tell you - it would be deleted as a personal attack on the bunch of you. And no I don't think this thread would be appropriate to tell me that you are praying for these folks. You want to really support them - show it with flags and care packages, visits to your local VA hospital, volunteer at the Red Cross, but being jerks in public is not helping them.

Steve


Below is a letter received by the parents of Corporal Joshua Miles from the 3rd Battalion 2nd Marines.   This simple Poem says a lot.

We got a letter from Josh today, if you could call it that, written 3/9. They are hearing about the anti-war protests and he was upset. That' s all the letter talked about. He enclosed a poem he and his buddies wrote. He wants us to get it out, let people see how
they feel.

"Wish You Were Here"
For all the free people that still protest.
You're welcome.
We protect you and you are protected by the best.
Your voice is strong and loud, but who will fight for
you?
No one standing in your crowd.
We are your fathers, brothers, and sons, wearing the
boots and carrying guns.
We are the ones that leave all we own, to make sure
your future is carved in stone.
We are the ones who fight and die, we might not be
able to save the world,
Well, at least we try.
We walked the paths to where we are at and we want no
choice other than that.
So when you rally your group to complain, take a
look in the back of your brain..
In order for that flag you love to fly wars must be
fought and young men must die.
We came here to fight for the ones we hold dear.
If that's not respected, we would rather stay here.
So please stop yelling, put down your signs, and
pray for those behind enemy lines.
When the conflict is over and all is well, be
thankful that we chose to go through hell.

Corporal Joshua Miles & all the young men from 3rd
Battalion 2nd Marines, Kuwait


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 10:00 AM

Thanks, Steve. It's a good poem and I am sorry for the hard feelings.

I would like to point out, though, that many of the people I have met, who are protesting, along with the rest of the world, are veterans who also fought and sacrificed, in previous wars, to uphold our freedoms.

luvyakat


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Peter T.
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 10:37 AM

Fighting in a war like this is to ensure that your future is carved in dust.

yours, Peter T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 10:43 AM

For those who might be concerned for the troops and want to show them individual support:
Adopt a soldier.

Some of our protesters were at the VA hospital yesterday advocating benefits for all veterans and support for our troops when they come home with possible problems with PTSD, amputations, Gulf War disease, etc. According to one report, VA benefits are going to be slashed over the next ten years. We need to remember vets when they come home, regardless of how we feel about the war, imo.

kat


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Peter T.
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 11:12 AM

A LETTER HOME

You people stand up and say we should not be at war,
even in the halls of government,
And yet how is liberty and law to be preserved,
and the so fragile order of things. If they should win,
everything we fight for would be threatened,
around the world.
You at home, snug in your beds,
Accusing our leader of madness,
ruthlessness,
Have no idea about how these savages fight,
paying no attention to the rules of war,
dressing up as civilians, ambushing us,
persecuting innocent bystanders,
sending them into exile, the roads clogged
with refugees. We are a long way
from home,
but we will prevail against these pious
hypocrites, in the defence of the right,
Behind these monsters, disguised as human beings,
Who kill us and whom we will kill
Are the people, who, even if they do not know it now,
Are with us.

(A British soldier, writing home from America, 1778)
(A Roman soldier, writing home from Gaul, 44 B.C.)
(A Christian soldier, writing home from Jerusalem, 1123 A.D.)
(A Spanish soldier, writing home from Cuzco, Peru, 1562 A.D.)
and so on....


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Amos
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 11:45 AM

I submit there are important differences among the present situation and your examples, dear Peter. The Romans and the Spaniards were simply and directly out for conquest. The Crusaders were pursuing a fatally flawed vision. While the U.S forces in Iraq are certainly there because of extremely poor management by the current administration they are not there to conquer Iraq and they are not there to change anyone's religion.

The broad repeating patterns which you so deftly identify are not generated by those in protest or by those in service in this war. And failing to penetrate the mechanisms for the cyclic insanity can hardly be blamed on those who are doing what they feel they must. I don't know if anyone can. They are certainly too deeply buried for most people to untangle, in spite of their mindless repetitions through history.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Gareth
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 11:55 AM

Diferent War, different cause, but the thoughts the same.

Click 'Ere

Gareth


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Peter T.
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 12:02 PM

On the contrary, the Romans consistently spoke about the spread of Roman welfare; but more important, the more involved they got in various places like Egypt, France, etc., the more trouble they got into, and the more necessary to the future of Rome the suppression of revolt was. Even more strikingly, in the case of the Spaniards, after the initial voyages, they deliberately got blessing from the Pope and were officially acting as his emissaries, bringing Christianity to the New World. They would stand at the entrance to villages, reading (in Spanish that the villagers could not understand) an order to the villagers to submit to being Christianized, and if they did not, they would be butchered. So controversial was their mission, that they -- extraordinarily -- held a conference in Spain in the early 1550s, at which Bartolomme de Las Casas fought against Sepulveda as to the justice of Spanish conquest. I know of very few cases where pure conquest is openly stated as the goal (in fact, I can't think of any): there is always a dusting of "goodness".


I thought it was blindingly obvious that the United States is out to conquer Iraq. Conquer, in my dictionary, means to beat into submission.

yours, Peter T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 12:06 PM

Our service people are good and dedicated people who are willing to put their lives on the line to protect our freedom. For that I thank them.

The people who protest war, when the motives our government has for sending our brave service people to fight and die are in question, when they think the government is using our brave service people badly and sending them to die for the wrong reasons, these are the ones who fight for the lives and freedom of our service people.

A government that is able to send it's brave warriors to fight and die for the wrong reasons, and do it with impunity, with no accountability to anyone, that is a government that is based in tyranny.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 12:18 PM

It took a whole battalion of Marines to write that, Norton1? Wow. Imagine if a whole regiment got together to write poetry... Look out, Shakespeare!

"The troops" chose to invade Iraq, illegally, Norton1. They also chose to kill, maim, humiliate, and otherwise inconvenience the Iraqi people. They didn't have to do it, but they chose to. Which makes them not heroes, but thugs and war criminals. You know, bad people. The sort of people our govt. claims it's there to remove. They don't deserve support for their actions, and I "pray" for their speedy defeat. :)

---Lepus Rex


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 12:23 PM

Well, what comes thru loud and clear is the "with us or against us" rhetoric of the Bush administration. It is flawed in that, if taken at face value, then freedom and liberty are already dead. This seems to be the same old disussion about the "spitting incident" which was allowed to snowball into the big massive PR campaign to divide the masses. And it did.

I'm not going to get into that one again but will say that I spend last Sunday at the VA hosputal with Claymore and those that remember that discussion would perhaps find it hard to believe that we have both reached accross that divide as friends.

Now, some of us feel it is our *patriotic* duty to question a foriegn policy that has put our brothers and sisters in harms way and I count myself as in that rather large group.

With that said, all that is left to me is prayer. I asked you, Steve, for your daughter's first name so that I wouldn't have to refer to her as Steve's daughter but you must have felt that was none of my business. It doesn't matter, my wife and I start each day with a long prayed in which we ask that God look after our service people, We name as many as we know. We also pray for Mr. Bush, and for the other leaders of nations effected by this war. Prayer is a powerful vehicle and for those of us who of Faith we don't think of it as trite. It is part of our lives. God wants us to have a relationship with Him and we can't do that if we're not willing totake those steps. God has so much work to do in these difficult times and He needs to here from us.

Now I hope I have not offended anyone here. I have not meant to. My motives are pro-human, caring, loving and not of self but of service.
And I will look into the links that Kat has provided to see what else my wife and I can do here, other than shut up and wave a flag.

Peace.

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 12:27 PM

To be fair, Lepus Rex, a lot of the service people from the US who are fighting in Iraq really didn't want to go there. They are good people who trust their government to do the right thing. If they are wrong in doing this, it's not because of a character flaw on their part, or because they are bad in any way. They are human beings who are doing their best in a crazy world, just like you and me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Amos
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 12:58 PM

Peter:

It is blindingly obvious that the United States forces are out to conquer -- beat into submission -- the forces defending the Hussein regime in Iraq.

I don't think anyone wants to beat anyone else there into submission outside that segment, except possibly Saddam et fils.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Peter T.
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 01:18 PM

Conquer means to do what we will. We will bring you a freedom of our designing, within parameters determined by us. You are not allowed to do what you want to do, make your own mistakes, build your own weapons, be independent of our will. We cannot allow that, even if the rest of the world disagrees, because it is too dangerous to let you go on being independent of our will. We will bring you good government, by the Halliburtons, for the Bechtels, and of the Exxons. Because we are good people, and love you, and know what is best for you. We determine, you do not get to determine this. You forget that we gave you money, weapons, helped put your leader in to begin with, and now we are removing him. You had no say in this before, and you have no say in this now, and if you believe you will have a say in it next time, you have a memory as short as a citizen of the United States. Any human beings, also known as "forces", that belong to you, who do not wish to do our will, will be killed. If you resist this as well, we will kill you, and replace you with people who will do our bidding. Are there any parts of this you do not understand, you foolish people? Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair.

yours, Peter T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 01:19 PM

If they didn't want to go there, Carol, they didn't have to. No-one put guns their heads. If they oppose the war, but went anyway because they "trust their government to do the right thing," they are either idiots, or naïve in the extreme. (And I consider extreme naïveté to be a character flaw) The rest are either bloodthirsty psychopaths or... no, I thought there was another group, but that about covers it.

I have a small amount of sympathy for the idiots, but screw the rest.

---Lepus Rex


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Amos
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 01:23 PM

Peter:

An eloquent summation of arrogance, old and new.

But your implication that the Saddam regime has done any less is perhaps disingenuous.

Or is it your sense that the regime of fear and extraordinarily brutal torture and mysterious disappearances which was the character of Iraq hitherto was completely voluntary? I seriously hope that is not your premise.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: SINSULL
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 01:32 PM

NortonI - I will not allow myself to be backed into the same corner I found myself in in the 60s. I am against this war. It is in my opinion an illegal, aggressive invasion of another sovereign state. BUT I support our troops and pray for their safe return. Your daughter is in my prayers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Peter T.
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 01:47 PM

Of course not, not voluntary at all. Neither are the governments of the Congo (3.5 million people dead and counting), North Korea (3 millions and counting), China (50 million and counting, including 2 million in Tibet), Iran (who knows); our current gallant allies Kyrgistan, Turkmenistan, Kazakhstan (hideous tyrannies, millions dead), and the list go on.....Why this hideous tyrant? Because we want to. He was our hideous tyrant, and now he isn't. He strayed. That is all. What matters is we want to. That makes it right.

yours, Peter T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: artbrooks
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 01:58 PM

Blaming the soldiers on the ground for the invasion of Iraq, illegal and aggressive or not, is rather like blaming the clerk in the convenience store for selling a pack of cigarettes because they cause cancer. My personal opinion is that this war is wrong, but I choose to reserve my dislike for Mr. Bush and the rest of the politicians.

I also choose to continue to believe that our troops, including the British and Australians in Iraq and the Czechs, Germans and others in rear support, will continue to be as sensitive as possible to the need to preserve the lives, safety and property of the civilian population. I assume that those who believe that there cannot be anything positive about the US military have noticed that a number of them have lost their lives already for thinking that people dressed as civilians are always noncombatants.

I also believe that we will return the country to local control as rapidly as possible. It may be that I am living in a fool's paradise, but I believe that Mr. Bush cares more about public opinion...and his chances for reelection in 20 months...to do otherwise.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: toadfrog
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 02:18 PM

Carol C: I agree with you, 100%.

Lepus: With friends like you, who needs an enemy?


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: SINSULL
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 02:19 PM

An added thought: this time I will not stand quietly by while the men and women who gave up an arm or a leg, an eye or their sanity in fighting this war get shuffled through mediocre health care facilities or worse tossed out on the street to roam sick and homeless.

Funds for veterans are being cut as we create new veterans in this war. Who the hell is going to take care of these people? Who is going to see to it that they receive the best care and are not left to their own devices to fight a government bureaucracy and miles of red tape?

A tax cut? Bullshit! Guarantee them medical care for life. And give the same to the veterans of the Gulf War who suffer from the non-existant "Gulf War Syndrome". I have personally spoken with some who are sick, homeless, and in total despair.

So wave your flags, tie up your yellow ribbons but make damn sure you are willing to be there when the glory days are over and there are sick, wounded, mentally ill people to care for.

Norton1 - I do support out troops. I am angry at our government for using them and then throwing them away. I pray that your daughter will come home safe and whole and healthy.
SINS


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: artbrooks
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 03:14 PM

SINSULL: mediocre health care facilities? Nonsense. Veterans of this war, as with all prior wars, will have access to the VA Health Care System. I'm a former VA employee (and a disabled veteran) and I have excellent health insurance. I choose to go to the VA since the Albuquerque Medical Center is affiliated with the University Medical School and the care I receive is as good as I would get anywhere else in my city. (And the VA bills my insurance.) The VA, on the average, consistently receives higher scores on the surveys conducted by the Joint Commission of the Accreditation of Health Care Organizations.   The VA treats Gulf War veterans, and all other veterans, with identifiable physical and psychological symptoms, and pays monetary compensation for those conditions that are related to military service and have been authorized by Congress.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 03:22 PM

"...they are not there to change anyone's religion."

That depends how you define religion. I suspect that worship of "the free market" is probably the fundamental religion within the seats of power in our societies, rather than a Christianity which profoundly challenges the validity of such worship as a foundation for a humane society.

Incidentally, and apropos of nothing, it's very strange
to have troops stuck in the middle of a desert, hundreds of miles from the sea, and called "marines"...


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 03:26 PM

artbrooks: I've heard that VA benefits are going to be cut. I don't think that Dubya cares as much about the troops as he does balancing his budget without raising taxes.

Lepus Rex-The enlisted soldiers do, in fact, have to go where they are deployed. There are rather serious consequences for failure to do so. If you expect them to never have enlisted at all, consider that many joined as a way to pay for college, during a period when there was no reason at all to believe they would be required to fight an unjust war.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: artbrooks
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 04:12 PM

At last report (March 25, 2003), the proposed cuts had been shot down in Congress, and there was actually going to be an increase in medical care spending.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 04:29 PM

If Mr. Bush's tax cut plan goes into effect the big loosers will be our Vets. Yep, to the tune of $14B over the by the end of the decade. That's alot of dough.

And for the winners? Guess...

Bobert

p.s. Sorry for the thread creep but I thought the issue that Sinsull brought up could use a dollar figure. This was in theis morning's Washington Post, incidently.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: artbrooks
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 04:43 PM

Bobert, I found that figure in Broder's editorial column. Is it somewhere factual?


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 06:26 PM

This is from the Greenwich, CT TIMES, dated today:

After a congressional committee passed a budget proposing deep cuts for veterans benefits two weeks ago, the House and Senate revised it, instead increasing funding for veterans by nearly $4 billion for 2003-04. Veterans' groups and sympathetic legislators had lobbied to delete cuts totaling $15 billion over a 10-year period, including benefits and pensions for disabled veterans, according to Steve Thomas, a spokesman for the American Legion National Headquarters in Washington, D.C. The increased funding is part of a budget that will be negotiated by a joint congressional committee and will almost certainly be maintained or increased, U.S. Rep. Christopher Shays, R-Bridgeport, said.

I also read in our local paper that our VA hospital has over 400 veterans waiting to see a primary care physician because this VA hospital has been unable to hire another doctor.

Lepus, you are being disingenuous. It is never as black and white as you seem to think. As someone else noted there are very serious consequences if one was to refuse to do as commanded in the armed services. Also, most soldiers have others to think of, i.e. families, etc. before they go to extreme measures and get courtmartialed or worse.

This war is wrong, wrong, wrong. PeterT, the last bit you posted was brill and spot on. It is the leaders who are causing this mess we must blame and do something about, not the soldiers they command.

Well said, Sins!

kat


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST,Norton1
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 06:46 PM

Marines is spelled with a capital "M" for those that do not know. And Lepious Rexious - species obnoxious. You talk pretty badly from what you perceive to be the anonymity of the internet. Did you know that any administrator can locate you right down to your home address and phone number from any of your postings? I'm betting money that I know someone that could do that from the PM you say you sent to me.

And if you really are so brave perhaps you'd like to tell the Marines who wrote the poem how you perceive it in person? Or maybe even a representative of them? I thought not - makes you just aboout as big a hero as that fat guy who gained a little notoriety at the oscars. Big mouth when hiding - you ain't shit Leper.

These men and women may or may not be doing what any of you believe to be right - you asked what they thought and I found out for you. No more and no less. And not a one of you would be able to say what you are right now without the ancesters of these men and women doing what they thought was correct back in the 1700s. This fight in Iraq could be the actual beginning of Iraqi independance for all you Einstein's know.

So - see you all on the next thread - this one's dead in my opinion.

Oh yeah - Bobert - I'd just as soon you pray for what you want. I don't want any mixed messages going up to the Big Guy on my kid.


Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 06:46 PM

artbrooks:

Heck if I know how accurate it is. I picked it from the same source that you noted. We'll just have to see how it shakes out. A lot depends on wheather or not Bush will have to come back to Congress in two weeks to pay for another 30 days of war. The $74.9B is for just the first 30 days. We do know this about Bush, he talks the talk but writes checks like a man with no arms.

At any rate, I don't think (based on past history) that the US government is all of a sudden going to put their money where their mouths are in treating not only the usuall medical needs of its Vets but also the strange array of sypmtoms generally called Gulf War Syndrome.

But I hope I'm wrong.

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 06:52 PM

Norton1-Truly impressive. First, you make what are either poorly veiled threats or simply pointlessly obnoxious statements regarding the lack of anonymity on the Internet. Then, you call someone a coward because they're not stupid enough to deliberately provoke a fight with trained soldiers. You finish your post by taking your marbles and going home because you're not winning. Your depth of intelligence and maturity have truly swayed me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Amos
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 07:04 PM

Lurker:

You are a shortsighted and vitriolic dweeb, and are being insulting to boot.

I scarcely think you're in a position to discuss maturity and intelligence.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 07:10 PM

My dictionary (Concise Oxford ) has "marines" with the lower case initial. But then that'd be marines in general - perhaps as a term for a specific unit the upper case initial is the style.

This thread got me curious about the expression "Tell that to the marines", so I looked it up. Apparently it first crops up in Walter Scott's novel Redgauntlet - "Tell that to the marines, the sailors won't believe it". The implication being that, compared to sailors, the soldiers who used to ship with them were thought to be a bit gullible.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 07:18 PM

Bobert, I read that amount was for the time through Sept. 30th.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 08:22 PM

... taking your marbles and going home because you're not winning

Just like Dubya and the U.N.

Coincidence? I don't think so.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 08:28 PM

And not a one of you would be able to say what you are right now without the ancesters of these men and women doing what they thought was correct back in the 1700s.

This is simply not true. There is no reason to imagine that our rights would be any different than what the people of Canada enjoy if the people of the US hadn't fought the revolution back in the 1700s, and they enjoy pretty much the same freedoms as we do. Although if we were Canadians, I tend to doubt that we would be recieving threats of physical violence visited upon us for speaking our minds as you have done with Lepus Rex (insensitive as his posts are). I know you're under a lot of emotional stress right now, Steve, but that post was not worthy of you.

I know that you participated in the movement to stop the Vietnam War. You must have had a reason for doing that.

This fight in Iraq could be the actual beginning of Iraqi independance for all you Einstein's know.

I hope you're right.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST,Sam Adams
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 08:30 PM

It's funny how many messages I've seen from military people to the effect that "we're defending DEMOCRACY... so those of who you don't agree with us better sit down, shut up, love America or leave it, etc..."

Don't they see the contradiction?

"You have the right to free speech, so long as you're not actually stupid enough to use it." -- The Clash


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 08:51 PM

Kat:

Can't put my finger on the printed source but I have heard on two seperate occasions on news broadcasts that the $74.9B was for the first month.

Maybe someone else can shine some light on this.

Remember the earlier estimates of up to $200B from a source who no longed works in the Bush administration for divulging it?

Forum Lurker:

Whereas I tend to agree with you most of the time, in these most difficult times, we gotta have the patience with these folks who have somehow gotten control of the agendas. Stick with the issues and leave the rest alone. Sure, their side has a disporportionate number of knotheads, but they have hyjacked the deal and the only way we're gonna get it back is to not fall into their traps. I speak from experience, my friend, for they have baited me on an occasion. Chill, you're too smart slingin' mud... But keep on firing on values, morality, differences of idealogies. Okay? We need ya'!

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: wysiwyg
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 08:55 PM

Is it just me, or does Guest, Norton1 sound a little different from the Norton1 who recently posted about his just-deployed daughter and asked that we keep her in our thoughts?

~S~


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: SINSULL
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 09:04 PM

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/veteransresearch990419.html
http://www.cnn.com/HEALTH/9904/14/va.ethics/
http://www.mississippiwebsite.com/vahospitals.htm
http://www.mississippiwebsite.com/va_article.htm


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: SINSULL
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 09:12 PM

Clicked too soon. Sorry.

Above are some articles on the current state of veteran's care in the US. In Maine, not only are VA hospitals scheduled to close but also Help Centers which offer assistance to vets applying for benefits. How does a vet without money or a car get to a center for assistance in a state with almost no public transportation?

"Born On The Fourth Of July" told the story of a Viet Nam vet's experiences upon his return to the US as a paraplegic. True story although I don't doubt that Hollywood had a hand in it.

I do know that drugs and mental illness plague the men who returned. Many of them ended up on the streets when the Reagan Administration emptied the asylums of those deemed capable of fending for themselves.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Troll
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 09:23 PM

Hang on Steve. Don't let it throw you.
Lepus does it for shock value. He's been doing it ever since he came on the Forum. It doesn't seem to matter what the subject is, he has an offensive remark primed and waiting.
Forum Lurker, take a hike. Norton1 is exactly correct. I, too, doubt that Lepus would dare make his remarks personally to the people he so maligns.
As for pointing out that the Internet is not all that annonymous, it's simply a little reminder to everyone to be sensitive and polite when we communicate on Forums like this one. There are people who are not as civilized as we. ('Spaw excepted)
Steve has a child over there right now. How would YOU react under those circumstances to a post like Lepus'?

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 09:27 PM

America's streets are filled with homeless Vets. Yeah, in the time of war, there's no one more important but once the war is over the focus turns away. Sure, there are some good VA hospitals. When I was still in social work, the McGuire Hospital in Richmond was good. But for every good one there's a bad one, or a bad policy on following up on the effects of DU's and it's realtaionship to Gulf War Syndrome.

Like I said, I hope this time will be different, but the government, irregardless of the party in power, has a bad track record. And in these times with an economy that is shakey and an adminsitration not given toward spending money on the needs of the working and lower classes, from which our serive folk come, its a long shot that things will improve when these Vets come home...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 10:00 PM

Norton1-I'm sorry. My words were unwarranted.

Troll-I don't think Lepus would say that to a room full of Marines, either. I just don't look down on him that much. There's a fine line between cowardice and prudence, and it's hard to tell which side that falls on. I think Lepus is being rather impolite and bull-headed, and I would have no problem if Steve had attacked his intelligence for thinking that each and every soldier is personally responsible for the war. Honestly, I didn't know that Steve had a daughter in Iraq; my brain missed the connection. I'm not sure that his attack was warranted, no matter how brainless Lepus was being.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST,Norton1
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 10:25 PM

Forum Lurker - Thank you - apology accepted - Lepus must have intelligence for it to be attacked. And I'd suggest that he would not be willing to say what he said to a 60 year old former Marine either. I'd be willing to say that he would not say that to any service person or parent with a child in the Sand box. Lepus is simply a moronic jerk that loves to argue and fight - I'm in the mood to oblige him.

As far as an innuendo about privacy - his IP, accessable by the moderators and Joe Clones, would provide his home address and phone number in about 5 minutes. If the PM he sent me were threatening in the specific I could file a complaint with them and they could subpoena the information to file charges against him. So yes - it is a warning to everyone - be careful what you say. I'm not always the most polite either. But I daresay I've not threatened anyone.

CarolC - For your theory to be plausible we would have had to lose the War of Independence. So as my statement is based in reality - sorry friend - although I admire your patience and insistence. I also admire your cause.

Susan - It is me - I just got tired of Bobert's crap and arguing - he has an agenda that I respect. Peace. But his outlandish behavior leaves me not wanting his, or anyone elses, prayers that are not in harmony with success for the Americans over there (and my Daughter is an American). I've also got a brother up North with the Kurds. And my Daughter's husband is in the 4th Infantry Division that is just coming into Iraq to spearhead the drive to Bahgdad.


And for the rest - here is another e-mail from another Marine - Lepus - your friends over there are dying by the hundreds. Maybe they need your vitrioloc BS to help the cause? You could volunteer to be a shield - I hear that the Iraqi Ministry of Defense needs a few.



This is from an email that my son Jon (Marine--Somewhere in Iraq) sent to his wife -- and she forwarded it on to me.

I can't believe we have an internet set up out here in the field. The guys are lining up for probably a one time shot, but I hope it lasts. The only news we get here is from the BBC and they certainly are an arrogant and negative bunch. The press makes it look like we are getting ambushed at every turn and that we are at a standstill. Get the word out that this is BS because we are killing Saddam's troops by the hundreds and they are no match for us at all.

I've had one Marine get shot in the ankle but everyone else in the Company are OK. Let everyone know that we are in high spirits and we watch each others back here and we are taking care of business the
Marine way. I don't know exactly what the news agencies are saying back home about the war and I don't really care. I just want you to know the truth. We are fighting a bunch of militia, loyal to
Saddam, who wear civilian clothes, execute civilians and are guilty of all the other atrocities you may have heard about. But they are not slowing us down as we smash through any resistance every step of the way.

Again, we are all well and even though we don't particularly care what the press says, we hope the American people are behind us.

Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 10:47 PM

Steve: My prayers for your family are *not* "outlandish". There are no "outlandish" prayers if they are for the safety and well being of those of which we pray. No smallprint here, my friend.

Bob(ert)


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST,Norton1
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 10:52 PM

"I also read in our local paper that our VA hospital has over 400 veterans waiting to see a primary care physician because this VA hospital has been unable to hire another doctor."

I wanted to clarify this - simply because the Veteran does not have a primary care provider does not mean the Veteran is not able to be seen. A walk-in appointment is usually available within 1-3 days. You just won't see the same Doc each time - but your file is still the same. And for emergencies the Veteran only needs to present at the ER for immediate care.

There is a lot of discussion about the VA and who they are mandated to see. It is the opinion of many that those who served in peacetime and have no service connected injuries should not be the responsibility of the VA. I tend to agree. But for those who served in wartime, and this has come to pass, they should receive care at the VA if they need it. Current rules state that troops serving in a hostile environment will be eligible to receive all of their health care free, for the first two years after release from active duty, from the VA.

This should accomplish a couple of things. First it will allow the VA to document all reported problems from those who were there. Second it will provide the clinical evidence for claims of the Veterans and expedite an abnormally slow process (that being claims).

The VA has very few facilities that are not able to meet the current needs. But President Bush is not a very good advocate for the Veteran. He is a good commander, in my opinion, but has not done well by the Veteran. Hopefully continued lobbying will suffice to rectify this. The President is creating a massive voting block and they will have something to say about their care.

Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: artbrooks
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 10:55 PM

SINSULL, your first 2 articles refer to a problem about 4 years ago in which a research program wasn't keeping the proper documentation. The problem was serious, but the investigation revealed that it was strictly an issue of not obtaining the proper permissions in the proper form, not that any "experiments" actually took place, and there was no impact on proper patient care. The next 2 are from an individual's website, and he clearly has personal issues with the VA.

One of the VA's strongest critics and most persistent watchdogs is the DAV.
Here is what they had to say about VA health care last year. My own experience (as administrative staff rather than as a patient) is that medical providers, especially physicians, won't work for what the VA can pay...typically about $100,000-$120,000 per year for a doctor. The national nursing shortage isn't helping, nor is the fact that the general physical condition of many VA patients means they need more care than the typical American.   

I'm not sure about closing VA facilities in Maine. There is only one hospital in the state, at Togus (Augusta). It is very small and dates back to the Civil War. This will get you information of that VA and others in Maine and New England.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 10:56 PM

Lepus was gone for a few months and it seems, since his return, that he has had a hair-trigger temper. I think I remmeber when he used to post half-way decent remarks and always a link to pix of his beautiful cats. Don't know what has changed, but it sure doesn't excuse such rudeness.

I think it would be good for all of us to take a deep breath and try to remember to be extra-patient with one another. We are all in tumultous times, with a lot of fear-mongering rhetoric, full of dire warnings, ratcheting up our emotions. That has been going on for over a year. So, we are all a bit frazzled. At heart, we have our music, which brought us together, so let's try to remember that and give each other a little breathing space, okay? Of, course, this is just a suggestion, but I will try to take my own advice, starting right now...


~~breath in~~~ ~~breath out~~
ahhhh...


Thanks ya'll,

luvyakat


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST,Norton1
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 10:59 PM

Bob - I'm not much in the mood to cater to this. I said nothing about your prayers being "outlandish" - I said that your behavior is - and as one of the folks who has "baited you" a time or two I'll pass on any formal request for assistance. You do what you want to - like I said earlier - I'll take care of my own with my own.

And ask any Marine if the "M" is capitalized. Your dictionary not withstanding - as a Marine I'll say that it is my opinion that it is ALWAYS capitalized. But I'm not really caring whether you personally do or don't capitalize it.

Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 11:00 PM

Hey Steve. I think that debate would be a very interesting one to have over a couple of beers when you're under less stress than you are right now. Maybe some day.

I used to be married to a Vietnam Vet. And I was more recently in a significant relationship with a Vietnam Vet. I've seen what the experience of fighting in a war can do to a person. And I have a nineteen year old son. That, combined with what I saw happening during the Vietnam War; the lies we were fed then, and the lies we're being fed now, might be a part of what gives me my patience and insistence.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Amos
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 11:33 PM

Let's settle down.

1. A marine -- lower case m -- is any member of a land force carried on ships.

A Marine -- upper case -- is a member - whether active or not -- of the United States Marine Corps, an association of military fighters who have a reputation unrivalled on the planet for resourcefulness, effectiveness, a disdain for bureaucracy, courage and perseverance and, yes, deadliness in battle.

2. Steve -- the email from your son is heartwarming, but I am moved to ask when it was sent. It doesn't make any difference, exactly -- from a military point of view, the forces deployed in Iraq are pulling off a pretty amazing job. Now me, I hate being at war; but I can still say that I am awe struck by the courage and effectiveness of those who do the dirty work once it starts. I won't pretend ther eis no war, nor that there is no cause for one.

I only hope that in the overall net effect, their ideals will be realized; because they are paying a huge price to make the world better, according to their lights, and I would weep to see them get gypped by post-war tapdancing at home or internationally. I found it hopeful that the Senate rejected the VA cuts but I think we need to go a bit further than that.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 11:40 PM

Oh, Christ, aren't I the popular subject. Let's see...

Forum Lurker, Kat, Carol,, et al: Yeah, you're right. There are serious consequences for refusing to fight. But it is still a choice, made by the soldier. Let's pretend for a moment that I am a soldier. I'm informed that tomorrow, I'll be sent to Iraq, an illegal war that I strongly oppose, to say the least. In my mind, I have two choices:

1. Follow the orders of my superiors, fullfilling the promise I made to my country.

or...

2. Tell my superiors that I refuse to fight, and accept my punishment.

I would choose #2. I would rather spend the rest of my fucking life in prison than become a goon, a monster, in a military hit-squad. I would rather die than kill innocents. At least I would die with my fucking humanity intact, and at least those who survived me would be able to say that I wasn't a murderer. If you think this makes me "disingenuous," "brainless," or whatever, fine. You're entitled to your opinions. I disagree.

And despite having been raised in an extremely patriotic family, I just don't understand this bizarre compulsion to mindlessy, unquestioningly, "support the troops?" Support the troops, WHY? If "the troops" are doing bad things in our names, why support that? I support our troops in Bosnia & Herzegovina, and I support our troops in Kosova. I would support our troops in a real, legal war against a real threat. This is not that war, and these war criminals do not deserve our support.

Troll: I'm not trying to "shock" anyone. I'm expressing how I feel, in the language that comes naturally to me. As a fellow asshole, I'd think you would understand.

And Norton1... whatever. Your lightly veiled threats of physical violence and rambling, incoherent posts are only making me pity you. You seem to be either insane, senile, or both, and you need some professional help.

And if you really want to stalk me, you little creep, knock yourself out. Both my name (Will Anderson) and place of residence (Minnesota) are public knowledge, and can be found in many of my posts over the years, along with other juicy bits of personal information. My picture is available here, and will surely help you to track me down, like a dog, as they say. I have a shaved head these days, but otherwise I look the same. In fact, if you really want to hunt me down and prove to me what a violent badass you are, find that cookie, PM me, and I'll tell you EXACTLY where you can find me.

---Lepus Rex

PS Kat: I didn't go anywhere for a few months... I've posted regularly here, at least several times a month, since May, 2000. And I've always been an asshole. :)


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Amos
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 12:29 AM

Dang - a self-aware asshole! That's one for the evolutionary cosmology books!

Thanks, Will, for speaking up plain.

I would submit that this war has highly immoral beginnings, but it also has some very moral vectors to it. I think the common thread of those who support it -- those with any discrimination -- is the plain observation that we are facing the meanest son of a botch in the family of nations and th eworst facist dictator since Hitler. I know, there is an element of demonizing in this description, but they are also traits that can be substantiated with facts.

Because we began it badly is no reason to end it badly.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 08:41 AM

http://www.chp.ca/CHP-Communique/communique_10_12.htm


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 08:54 AM

Lepus Rex:

Hey, my brother, step back for just a minute, if you will and consider the following:

You would make choice #2 from a much different perspective than the twenty-something and teenagers who are in Iraq. Their perspective does not give them the wisdom that someone who lived thru the Vietnam War would have. And your perspective is not one formed in video arcades where violence is sanitized and at the end of the game no one is really dead or injured and every one goes home at night.

When you couple that to the excellent PR work the Bush machine has pumped out ("with us or against us", "evil dictator", "gassed his own people", "mushroon cloud over our head", etc, etc.) and the bold satements that this war was just going to be a mop up operation, these kids really haven't been put in a position to make choices.

And many of these kids enrolled in the military as a way to get out of the ghetto. They were highly recruited in their impressionable years in high school and they never thought that anyopne would come along and get the US into a ground war. Look at the high percentage of black folks and minorities and you'll see what I mean. They just got caught up in some funky sh*t.

So, my friend, I would hope that you would try to see the trap in which these kids got caught and not impose your wisdom and life's experiences on these kids.

The blame falls squarely on those of our generation.

Peace,

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 09:16 AM

Lepus Rex-Do you honestly think that anyone over there WANTS to kill innocents? Do you think they believed that they WOULD be killing innocents when they went over there? Or is it maybe possible that they believed the war would be quick and clean, like all of their commanders, experienced military men, were telling them?


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 09:43 AM

"But I'm not really caring whether you personally do or don't capitalize it."

No reason you should, and nor do I care much about that kind of stuff. Remember, we live in different countries - newspapers over here normally seem to use the lower case initial. I wasn't using it as some subtle way of disparaging the troops involved.

Anger directed at soldiers caught up in this kind of situation is misdirected. If there's anger around it ought to be directed at the people who give the orders, especially at the political level. All you can expect from people is that they do what they see as their duty, and for most soldiers that's going to mean following the orders they are given.

Obviously there are times when a soldier has a duty to refuse to obey some kind of orders - My Lai is an example - but it's not to be looked for except in exceptional circumstances, and exceptional people.

Incidentally I saw in the paper today that three British soldiers from 16 Air Assault Brigade in South Iraq have been ordered home for protesting that the war is killing innocent civilians, and are facing court martial - Three British soldiers sent home after protesting at civilian deaths


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Doktor Doktor
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 10:06 AM

Oh dear Mr norton (with a small n), Oh dear ..............

"............ Did you know that any administrator can locate you right down to your home address and phone number from any of your postings? ............. "

Oh dear oh dear.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Big Mick
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 10:26 AM

Lepus, one of the things you should have learned from the Vietnam experience is that one should never paint with a broad brush. When you characterize the young men and women over there as "thug" and "murderers of innocents" you are doing exactly what the Generals do to us to get us to fight. You are dehumanizing those that you oppose. I know any number of folks that are over there. By my count, Steve has three members of his nuclear family there. For him it is very personal. Were I in his position, I would be on you as well. When you speak in these terms, you are no better than those you oppose.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Greg F.
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 11:16 AM

Oh yeah, Right. Poor, poor Snortin' Norton- proponent of the 'Vee know vere you live! You haff relatives in Germany?' school of thuggism. He might try coming across as less of a loud-mouthed schoolyard bully. Sixty years old going on thirteen.

Also, he could try explaining to the members of his family overseas that most folks who are against how the troops are being USED by BuShite Junta don't have any animosity towards the soldiers and sailors themselves and hope they all get back in one piece. Perpetuating the "anti-war = anti-troops" fantasy BS only serves to widen the divide.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: katlaughing
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 11:28 AM

Bobert and Mick, unless Lepus has not been entirely truthful, according to various postings of his, he is still, barely, in his twenties, so not exactly coming from the experiences you thought. He looks fairly young in his pix, too.

Lepus, my mistake...I was thinking of someone else who posted links to cat pix, etc.

Norton, for the record JOE CLONES CANNOT ACCESS PERSONAL INFORMATION ABOUT ANY MEMBER.

Thanks...did ya all BREATH?

kat


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST,Norton1
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 12:30 PM

"And if you really want to stalk me, you little creep,"

Getting a tad bit upset there Mr. Lepus?? You've not been threatened in any way shape or form with physical violence. My comment had to do with your statement about others that you most likely have not made to their faces. Yep that's integrity Mr. Lepus. Bad mouthing behind other's backs. VERY productive.

And to obligate yourself for something in a contractual agreement (signed no less) and then backing out because you don't like your choice - more integrity Mr. Lepus. LMAO - You are a sad sack - anything I might do regarding your words would be in a court of law. Under the auspices of libel and slander. Since I've not seen anything of that magnitude yet, but it appeared you were heading there, I figured a minor warning about the limitations of the internet might be in order. Sounds like you are wanting some form of a confrontation?? Tell me EXACTLY where I can find you? Tsk tsk tsk - tell you what Mr. Anderson. I'll do for you the same as I did for the other individual. I'll white you out of my life also. That way I have no need to respond to you and you'll have no need to further get your dander up.

kat - Joe Clones can access the IP - that's all it takes.

Mick - I have two family members over there. The third is a friend's son - I abbreviated the message to eliminate any mention of the original family. Sorry if that caused confusion.

Amos - The message came two days ago and as I said to Mick - sorry about the confusion. I have a Daughter, her husband, and a Brother there.

McGrath - Sorry if I offended you with my short comment. I've always liked the majority of your posts.

Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Doug_Remley
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 12:33 PM

Thank you Kat for that enlightening perspective. The apparent rancor with little empathy was confusing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 12:46 PM

You didn't offend me Norton - I just thought I might have offended you, and wanted to get it straightened out.

There's quite enough bad feeling around these days. Don't want to add to it by misunderstandings.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Greg F.
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 12:46 PM

Members of the Marines are incompletely educated about the history of the Corps. In addition to truly heroic efforts, it has been the perpetrator of some truly shameful actions as the shock troops of U.S. imperialism, historically invading foreign countries upon any pretext or whim of the U.S. Government or U.S economic interests. For example:

CHILE 1891, HAITI 1891, HAWAII 1893, NICARAGUA 1894,CHINA 1894-95, KOREA 1894-96,PANAMA 1895, NICARAGUA 1896,CHINA 1898-1900,PHILIPPINES 1898-1910, CUBA 1898-1902,PUERTO RICO1898, GUAM 1898, NICARAGUA 1898, NICARAGUA 1899, PANAMA 1901-14, HONDURAS 1903, DOMINICAN REPUBLIC 1903-04, KOREA 1904-05, CUBA 1906-09, NICARAGUA 1907, HONDURAS 1907, PANAMA 1908, NICARAGUA 1910, HONDURAS 1911, CUBA 1912, PANAMA 1912, HONDURAS 1912, DOMINICAN REPUBLIC 1914, MEXICO 1914-18, HAITI 1914-34,DOMINICAN REPUBLIC 1916-24, CUBA 1917, RUSSIA 1918-22, PANAMA 1918-20, HONNDURAS 1919, YUGOSLAVIA 1919, GUATEMALA 1920, HONDURAS 1924-25, PANAMA 1925, CHINA 1927-34, LEBANON l958, DOMINICAN REPUBLIC 1965-66, & etc & etc. Additional examples pre-date and post-date these.

It would be a real service were they made aware of their entire history- the good AND the bad. They could still be the few and the brave, but possibly a bit less hubristicly proud. t might also provide them with some insight into why much of the world doesn't trust the U.S.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: katlaughing
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 01:25 PM

Sorry, Steve, joe clones CANNOT access IPs.

WolfieVN, The apparent rancor with little empathy was confusing.?? Sorry, I am missing the refernce. Can't tell if it is irony or genuine.:-)

I AM sorry I used all caps to make the point about joe clones, but the mistaken ideas of what we can and cannot do gets to me sometimes. My apologies for shouting, Steve, et alia.

kat


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Doug_Remley
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 02:37 PM

Sorry, Kat. I was referring to the general comments by Lepus. Your comments about his probable age seem to resolve many questions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: katlaughing
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 02:41 PM

Thanks for explaining, WolfieVN, I appreciate it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 03:17 PM

"There is a minority of intellectual pacifists whose real though unadmitted motive appears to be hatred of Western democracy and admiration of totalitarianism. Pacifist propaganda usually boils down to saying that one side is as bad as the other but if one looks closely at the writings of younger intellectual pacifists, one finds that they do not by any means express impartial disapproval but are directed almost entirely against Britain and the US. Moreover they do not as a rule condemn violence as such, but only violence used in defense of Western countries." - George Orwell (in 1945), quoted in a letter to The Spectator


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST,Norton1
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 03:31 PM

Thanks for the clarification Sis - I was mistaken and my apologies for it.

GUEST - It has been documented somewhere, and I apologize for not having a link to it, about those you reference being in direct contact with the North Vietnamese during the Viet Nam War. These "intellectual pacifists" worked hand in hand with the North Vietnamese to keep Americans in a bad light to facilitate an ending to the war.

Oh yeah - just remembered - It's in a book called "Stolen Valor" - written by a Viet Nam Veteran about how the war cost my generation the social conventions normally accorded veterans doing a job for a country. I can't remember the author's name but he related this directly to the poor treatment by the peace folks back home towards the returning veterans and the subsequent poor treatment in the VA hospitals as documented in "Born on the Fourth of July" by Ron Kovic. And by a bunch of us who experienced first hand the deplorable treatment accorded the wounded.

I was unimpressed by the book but he did lay out a case, factual as hell, for the above scenario.

Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Troll
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 04:09 PM

Greg, I think that it is utterly marvelous that you have never in your life done anything to harm another person. That must really free your conscience to be so pure of spirit. I think that most Marines are aware that there episodes in the Corps history that are less than sterling.
How kind of you to remind everyone and, at the same time, try to undermine Steve Nortons pride in the Corps and men with which he served.
You remind me of the definition of an auditor: One who comes out after the battle and bayonets the wounded.
I would wish you a nice day, but I don't think your smug satisfaction would allow you to accept it.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Doug_Remley
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 06:50 PM

Greg, and in answer to allusions to imperialism or empire by the U.S. there is a brief quote by Colin Powel that is apt:

When in England at a fairly large conference, Colin Powell was asked by the Archbishop of Canterbury if our plans for Iraq were just an example of empire building by George Bush. He answered by saying that,

"Over the years, the United States has sent many
of its fine young men and women into great peril to fight for freedom beyond our borders. The only amount of land we have ever asked for in return is enough to bury those that did not return."

It became very quiet in the room.

It is important to use terms wisely (by definition) and in context in an extremeley personal thread such as this. If you abjure the warrior's service when called, did you answer in the service of Peace beyond your front yard? Did you serve in the Peace Corps for two years to match our call from neighbors and peers? Did you serve the poverty-stricken in our own country with building homes or (ugh) picking up trash in an inner city ghetto? I didn't see you in Nicaragua to act as an observer for the first free election. You weren't in Russia when it needed our help in an unstable period of balkanization?


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: katlaughing
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 06:58 PM

Sorry, WolfieVN, but I think Powell is being a bit disingenuous about this time. We may not ask for land, but we do seem to get concessions which could include huge oil deposits, huge contracts for rebuilding what we destroy, and many other tangible and non-tangible things.

I really wish they wouldn't talk in *sound bites*. I wish they would use real rhetoric and drop the inciteful and judgemental BS.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Amos
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 07:18 PM

Kat:

What is you think "we" -- whoever that is -- are going to do with the oil that legally belongs to the nation of Iraq? Pump it out from under them? As far as I know the intention of this country is to buy some of it from them and see to it that the proceeds go into their economy, rather than into glory holes for their fearless leaders.

Am I missing something on this point?

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Doug_Remley
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 07:31 PM

Shoot, TAB was not a paragraph but submitted an unfinished message with a misspelling.

Greg, you certainly seem versed in the "crimes" of the USMC, though you forgot the atrocious execution/ambush of August Sandino in the 30's. It seems true that since the time of "honor" and "face" wars have increasingly become economically driven. Corporately driven to protect flow of profit-driven resources, if you will. And, the good people who should rule are the same that want nothing to do with the political process, nor can afford it. And yet, you call to task the young people ordered to serve, seeking to serve to improve their lot in life, without tasking the regimes that have taken millions upon millions of lives in this century. Have you seen the mass graves required for hundreds of thousands of unidenitified children? They are larger than soccer fields. THAT was the German siege of Leningrad.

And what did Lepus say, "Pretend I am a soldier" to examine two choices? That is as patently unreal as a man saying, "Pretend I am pregnant." Being a soldier in the throes of close combat are as surreal as a women feeling change, growth within and the fulfillment of birth.

Answers are not that easy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 08:20 PM

I believe we're getting bogged down on just a speck on the time line here. If we look at our little planet and put a magnifying glass over the just the last two hundred years, we find there is no other nation on Earth that has *taken* by force and continues to occupy as much land as the United States. But that is a side show.

Resources, now, are a different matter. The US has done a good job of coralling more than it's share (based on population and land mass) without having to occupy those areas of the world. And they have been smart enough in the past to corral these resources from countries that have gone from one dictator to one attempted democracy to one military coup and back and forth and mix and match. Doesn't matter. What matters is that the US contiunes to get its hands on the bootie, which it seems to always do. Of course, having a big stick makes the job that much easier.

Sure, the US would love to have some other dictator in Iraq. They grew bored with Saddam. Or they'd take a democracy or oligarchy or just about anything. Then the sqabbling would be between *those* folks, the US would look like an "impartial" party and meanwhile, back at the ranch, the oil would flow to the US and it's friends de jour.

Problem is, that the small minority of folks that have concocted this plan, is that it is a bad plan. The reason it will fail is because eventually the American working class will see that, just like the rest of the world's resources being tapped by Boss Hog, his labor is, too. Yeah, their won't be enough country musci, MASCAR or made-in-China American flags to save the greedy. Yes, their little "redistribution of income" scheme will eventually squeeze Joe Sis Pack to the point that he will have had enough. Right now, he's happy.

Check back in in a few years....

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: SINSULL
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 08:25 PM

There are five Veteran's Homes in Maine offering care from rehab through permanent housing. These services were in danger of fund cuts. Two Service Offices - the ones a veterans goes to for assistance in getting his/her benefits - were scheduled to close (Machias and Portland, I believe). These have been saved through a last minute transfer of $250,000 from the Free Election Fund.

200,000 vets have been waiting an average of six months for their initial health exam. The proposed solution is to cut benefits to high income vets whose health problems are not service related. High income is defined as $30-35,000/year.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Doug_Remley
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 08:31 PM

Kat, I don't think Colin was being disingenuous in his remark to the Archbishop; nor, that it was a "sound-byte." He had not participated in the uglier side of war in his first tour. On his second he was a young operations officer for the 11th Light Infantry in Qua Ng Ai province and wanted to see the men on the ground by personally delivering soda rations which had been previously been witheld to sell at rear area clubs. On hearing a unit was deeply involved and running out of ammunition, he personally helped change the load to deliver small arms resupply, landing while medevacs would not. This is not the venue for specifics, but he notes an epiphany in chapter six, the first few pages of his book "My American Journey." The man is erudite, a quick thinker, and honest to a fault. His words were not in service to a political end. I am sure he is not happy serving his present master.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Greg F.
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 08:54 PM

Wolfie-

I think you're (willfully?) misinterpreting my point. Nowhere did I "abjure the warrior's service when called", "call to task the young people ordered to serve" or condone or express approval for "the regimes that have taken millions upon millions of lives in this century". I'm just suggesting a more balanced look at the U.S.'s role in world affairs over the last 170 years or so. Whitewashing the country's military adventurism or pretending it didn't exist isn't the least helpful.

Powell was correct as far as his statement went: the U.S. did not ASK, it simply took. California, Puerto Rico, etc. And it IS disingenuous to suggest that real estate is the only asset of a country worth taking (it is usually the least valuable, and a real pain in the ass to administer)or that annexing territory is the only means by which a country can be exploited. Powell simply talked around the question. This sort of circumlocution isn't helpful, either.

Finally, this isn't about me. What I have seen, what I have or have not done personally over the years you have absolutely no way of knowing- it might surprise you. But it would not make any substantive difference to the points under discussion.

Best, Greg

Best, Greg


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Doug_Remley
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 09:14 PM

Oh, Bobert!

Your first statement is patently ridiculous and without the truths of historical reality! I assumed only the false leaders of the Russian people rewrote history in our lifetime but, apparently, false statements shouted loud enough create truth out of fiction wherever there is the bullhorn of self-justification. You must believe the Soviet hegemony was due to free elections before it balkanized. Or, that the two hundred forty million Russians who have died from the beginning of the century were caused by our bullets. Or, that U.S corporations are the sole cockroaches of our planet.

Nothing is said of the German search for "liebesraum" by force, or the Japanese Rape of Nanking in its forceful attack on Korea, China and Indochina, Malaya, Burma and India, or the Philippenes.

Yes, we are stuck on a relatively brief timeline. The federation of states you attack has only existed for a brief span of history.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 09:30 PM

Reread, Wolfie. You're in too much of a hurry here, my friend, to impress.

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Doug_Remley
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 09:52 PM

Greg,

I could only respond to the words I saw printed as I do not know you, or you, me. It is unusual to meet people who agree to disagree and I have not been disrespectful of this nor have I the intent. I DO respond when histories or philosophies are presented falsely. Through personal experience, I urge each to to read Powell's statement, in that time and in that place, simply, for his words, without ascribing ulterior motive. Sometimes a man does nothing but bare his soul.

This had to be answered separately from othe questions. No, I do not wilfully misinterpret to play devil's advocate. Too many play that game as it is.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Doug_Remley
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 09:59 PM

"If we look at our little planet and put a magnifying glass over the just the last two hundred years, we find there is no other nation on Earth that has *taken* by force and continues to occupy as much land as the United States. But that is a side show."

Bobert, my reponse stands.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: JudyR
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 10:06 PM

Sinsull -- Ron Kovic, whose story was told in "Born in the Fourth of July" lives out here in Southern California, and has been telling his story at every large antiwar demonstration(unfortunately, there are so many protesters, it's been hard to get close enough to the speakers to hear, much less the podium.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 10:07 PM

WolfieVN-Strictly speaking, though, the U.S. is the country which has seized and kept the largest amount of territory. Neither the Japanese-occupied areas of China nor the Soviet satellites were as large, nor as long-occupied, as the total breadth of the United States, which was almost entirely taken by force. We do also consume more resources per capita than the inhabitants of any other nation in the world.

While Powell is correct that we have never asked land of those people we came to aid, he fails to note that on numerous occasions (Mexican War, Spanish-American War, the entire history of our dealings with the Amerindians) we have seizes the land we wanted by force, and that most of our interventions were done partly if not not entirely for self-preservation. It is no coincidence that we failed to enter either world war until our own citizens were attacked.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 11:08 PM

And just to reiterate what F.L. has confirmed, wolfieVN, when one gets beyond the boundary lines and into *resources* we find another indisputable reality that the US controls ore than its share of the world's resources. And when we pull out the magnifying glass yet again, we find that it's the upper 1% are those in control...

And if we up the magnification, we find that these 1% not only have control over a large portion of tghe Earth's resources but also the resources of the working class in the US.

Hmmmmmm, Part 897?

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Amos
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 11:21 PM

Well, just to keep things in balance, let me remind you that the people of the United States have also added huge amounts of value to the world in production, intiative, invention, aid by the bilions of dollars, and -- for better or for worse -- music and films. We have also added some truly extraordinary value in literature and art to the net assets of civilization on Earth. Let's just keep this in perspective -- it is just possible that the Grand Experiment of letting people live relatively free lives -- which started here -- might have something to do with the wealth the nation has accumulated. There are other countries with more natural resources, and larger populations, but there aren't any that have shown the spark of innovation and making things happen that the American spirit has brought forth.   I hate to sound like a jingoist but I hate one-sided criticism -- it violates my sense of fair play even when I do it! :>) And as wlel as a huge chain of offenses, they have, collectively, a huge chains of "ways to make life better" to their credit, which many of us are happy to enjoy.

So let's just be a bit balanced when we start upbraiding the nation for all its horrible sins. Its citizens by and large are doing well in life. Despite its natural resources, an Iraqi professional is fortunate to earn $45 a month, if I recall correctly. Just for one example.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: artbrooks
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 11:48 PM

SINSULL, I think those are State owned and operated facilities, not VA/federal ones.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Doug_Remley
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 12:02 AM

Forum Luurker... even the simplest functions of addition and subtraction in geographic terms task your first statement. Historically, of the four continents where trans-continental expansion was possible, technology based socieites prevailed where there was a mixture of societies seeking the same territories. Certainly, crimes against humanity were present in all cases. Not just our own expansion. I or you cannot absolve the sins of others, or change them. I strongly object tasking only our own people when evil is rampant, worldwide today.

I am not pleased with President Bush, but the September 11th attacks on all of us DID take place on his watch. Europe stood silent at the ethnic cleansing in the prior Jugoalavia, but Europe has its own agenda. In an apparently lawless world who will be first to say "enough is enough?" What value to us in any way is Afghanistan? What corporations, what monoliths are there? Maybe we do not trust our government, but who better to trust than the young men and women we raised in our image? Are some of us to say they have not learned from our errors in the past? Have the grace not to laugh up a sleeve at what some think of as an oxymoron, but, whatever its leadership, our American Military is the best trained, most intelligent and capable, available force to begin instituting a rule of law in a nuclear world with weapons of mass destruction. They have pledged their very lives not to Bush, or the past, but to that cause.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: DougR
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 12:08 AM

Lepus: in your response to a messages posted by kat you describe yourself as a "ass-hole."

By God, I think you're right!

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Doug_Remley
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 12:08 AM

BRAVO, Amos! I wanted to add that but hit the wrong clicky-thing again


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 12:45 AM

WolfieVN-I wasn't passing moral judgement, just pointing out the facts. Count acreage and you'll see my point.

Amos-I think that our wealth and freedom are somewhat mutually reinforcing. It's possible for us to be free because we can afford it. Conversely, because we're free, we can create the capitalist market, which encourages large scale spending, boosting the economy a la Keynes. Also, while I'll readily agree that our technological innovation is impressive, I can't say the same for our art. While we are primarily responsible for the rise of good speculative fiction, most of what is actually called art nowadays, whether literary, musical, or visual, far exceeds Sturgeon's Rule, and is entirely composed of crap. Europe at least has the glory days of classical Greece, Shakespeare, and honest traditional music to look back on, even if it did spawn Dadaism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Doug_Remley
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 03:30 AM

Lurker: Tsk. Tsk. Not only was acreage but square kilometers were checked again before a statement was put to print in refutation. One must be careful in tossing off facts so disdainfully.

I find dwelling on the sins of those long dead hard to understand in any culture. Must the sins of fathers be borne by their children?

Be very careful discussing a birth of capitalism, referring to your note to Amos in the same breath. This is not the thread to discuss such things, nor is it a thread to get into a fine arts issue, where I will paste you to a wall on your subjective statements.

The subject of this thread is that a father's children, a veteran in his own right, sought to serve their country in their own time. The units with which they were serving were called into harm's way. He shared their youthful poetry with us, with an explanation of why he did so. No more, no less.

To have a daughter in a zone of confict where missiles can reach beyond a front line can only compound his grief and fears.

I am impressed to find a site where so many peaceloving people have gathered with those who have served. I am surprised at the many who admit service to their country, whether happy with their past, or not; or, the unusual number of ground-pounders who sought peace after service. I carried my Hoehner chromatic (the piano didn't fit in the rucksack) as a young man, finding this site so many years later in search of a tune almost forgotten.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 09:02 AM

Must the sins of fathers be borne by their children?

Not at all. But the MEMORY of those sins should be kept alive.
Imparts a sense of perspective, cuts down the tendency toward self-righteousness and helps to keep future generations from actiing like complete jackasses.

Best, Greg


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Peg
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 09:52 AM

Just wanted to say there are some interesting perspectives being expressed in this thread.
Bobert, I particularly liked your discussion of the generational differences between the armed service personnel of today and those who served in Vietnam. Very apt and insightful.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 10:32 AM

DougeR, you make me smile!

WolfieVN, you might be interested in reading this old thread, in particular Big Mick's posting of 27 Feb 1999 9:20am: click here.

And, just so you know, while it is admirable to try to keep a thread going on subject, quite often we will take off on what we call "thread creep" and whole other realms wind up being delved into, whether they follow the original intent or not. Herding Mudcatters in threads is like trying to herd cats...*cain't* be done.:-)

All the best,

kat


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST,Norton1
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 11:20 AM

It is nice to see a civil discussion going on here. Artbrooks is correct about the state facilities that are struggling.

wolfieVN - I can't say I am grieving about the choices my children have made. I taught them to think for themsleve, make a rational choice as they saw it, and then to plant their feet and stand for something. I have kids in harms way and I have a Daughter in Portland who is protesting this war with every fiber of her being. All of my kids have made choices and they are standing up for them. It is with pride I love all of my children equally. I do worry about them though. All of them.

I don't have to agree with someone to respect their choices. But by the same token if I choose to not pay attention to jerks and a-holes, as defined by me, then that is also my right. As is it yours.

I've found over the years that I give folks a couple of chances. After that I'll forgive the instance but will never forget or allow that person another opportunity to involve themselves in my life. I'm getting too old to put up with my stupid choices of the same old thing from the same old jerks. And I do my best to remember that it is my choice to set myself up for that.

Well enough babbling - have a superb day -

Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 02:37 PM

Bobert: Like Kat said, I'm 28, and so I'm still (*barely*) part of the generation that is fighting this war. As such, I think that I am in an excellent position to criticise the actions of my (*barely*) peers. I was raised on the same violent video games and anti-Islamic propaganda as these people, but I've somehow managed to avoid shooting up a van full of women and children. Youthful ignorance is not an excuse for murder.

And yes, Forum Lurker, I think that many of them DO want to kill what you or I might consider to be innocents, because they don't consider them to be innocents. Many of "our troops" joined up after 9/11 to fight a Muslim "enemy." On NPR's ATC yeterday, a tattoo artist talked about all the Christian, "crusader"-type tattoos he's been putting on US soldiers headed to Iraq. Even the veterans I know tell me that at least half of the soldiers they served with were racist, redneck psychopaths. These people don't deserve support.

Mick, that's an excellent point about dehumanising the opposition. But what would you call someone who illegally kills another person? "Thug" and "murderer" seem to fit here.

And would you really threaten to find/assault me, like Norton has, if you had kids in Iraq?

Doug, I remember when I used to defend you from flamers... Good to see you've learned to adapt so very well. :)

Oh, and Norton1. Can't forget you. No, I don't want a "confrontation" with you. If you were to follow up on your implied threats (And they were threats. Even people who like you criticised you for them.) and track me down, attack me, etc., I wouldn't fight you, no matter how hard you battered me with your walker. I have this "don't slug the aged" rule, you see.

I had a feeling you would back down once you realised that I am not, in fact, anonymous, and I was correct. It's good to know that you're just a gutless worm with a big mouth. I actually think more of you now than I did when I thought you were a crazed stalker. :)

---Lepus Rex

PS Kat, again: I'm not "barely" in my 20s 'til June, dammit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Amos
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 03:03 PM

Lepus:

Virtually 30, man -- time to come of age!!

The human race has evolved a set of laws governing the conduct of war in a an often-vain attempt to prevent it from declining into barbarism.

I believe if you had been at that checkpoint, and that van had kept moving toward you in spite of warning shots, you probably would have pulled the trigger in a fit of panic, remembering what happened to your four colleagues who believed the peaceful taxi-driver the day before and ended up mincemeat on the sand. Not everyone is quite willing to experience that, you see.

Congratulations on three decades, and counting!

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 07:08 PM

That checkpoint - a reporter on the BBC was saying today that there weren't any signs out telling traffic that there was a checkpomt coming up, and no proper blocking of the road. It must have felt more like an ambush than a checkpoint. Even if you actually believe the claims about warning shots.

Probably not malice, just incompetance, with unspeakably horrible results. These are supposed to be highly trained professionals. Maybe they weren't trained in how to set up and operate a checkpoint - in which case whoever drew up their training programme ought to be court-martialled.

I saw a photo today of a soldier - on his helmet there was a painting of a skull, and a large painted slogan "Kill 'em all". What kind of insanity is it that allows that kind of thing, in an army that is supposed to be trying to convince frightened people that it is there to bring peace and liberty?


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST,Norton1
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 09:06 PM

Ah Lepusious - you can't read or comprehend the English language. Run your mouth all you want - you were never threatened - implied or otherwise - you chose to read it that way. That's your paranoia not mine.

You must be feeling good - just finish up your prank call to the 22 year old Army troops parents telling them he was dead? Your opinion means little and I'm not real concerned about a fat skin head in wherever it is you hang out. Must feel good going to the bar and telling all your buds about how you really straighten them out on the internet.

Well Rexious - see you around kid - self admitted big mouth and supporter of the Iraqi Forces of dear old Saddam.

Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 09:55 PM

Lepus, re-read it, please. I meant that you were still barely in your 20's, i.e. almost 30.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 09:57 PM

Troll-

My apologies- didn't mean to ignore you.

I think that it is utterly marvelous that you have never in your life done anything to harm another person. That must really free your conscience to be so pure of spirit.

Do you actually come up with this hyperbolic shit yourself, or does someone write it for you? & you accuse me of being smug?

I would observe that Norton's pride must be a frail and fragile thing of little substance indeed if it can be so easily undermined, as you maintain, by my posting of a few facts.

"Have a Nice Day"-

Greg


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 10:25 PM

Lepus Rex:

Sorry for addin' some 20 or so years to ya', my friend. I haven't seen your pic but maybe I should. Might of fact, I haven't seen too many folks pics. Makes it more interesting in a way.

But, inspite of enjoyin' yer posts, I'm gonna have to hang with my position that a lot of folks have been caught up in some funky sh*t, with no way out. Black kids trying to escape poverty and the ghetto. Look at the disporportionate number of minorities and I think you'll see a pettern here.

Now, as for Norton. Hey, he is from another group that you will never understand. But that's okay. Just know that that bridge has to be built and won't be built in our life time. It is too important to those who rule, control, manipulate and control the subject/working class to ever allow that divide to be bridged for it is a ceneter piece in their scheme to maintain their position. Though you may be a mere 28, once you understand this lesson, you will be infinately wiser.

It ain't that "new and improved"... Divide and conquer....

Meanwhile, the working class fight their wars, pay for their wars and end up dieing in poverty.

Welcome to Boss Hog's America!

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Troll
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 12:54 AM

Yes Greg, I came up with it all by myself.
You did not post your "truth" to inform, but to harm. You are still the sumg, sanctimonious,
prig that you have always been; proof that some things don't improve with age.
Lurker, I do believe that Canada is larger that the US and I don't recall it being uninhabited when the ancestors of the present population got there. As for Russia, you could drop the US into Siberia and it would vanish; and it is still part of Russia. I'm not sure how China fares in size comparison, but most of what it now claims, it claims by right of conquest.
And I don't even want to talk about Australia.
Greg, I always have a nice day. It's all part of my revenge.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 07:31 AM

You did not post your "truth" to inform, but to harm. You are still the sumg, sanctimonious, prig that you have always been

In light of your history of postings, Troll, I'm amazed you can say this without choking.

And what precisely are Norton's ranting postings and personal attacks designed to do? I'm sure he appreciates you running to his defense. I rather assumed the rugged, two-fisted, cock-on-a-dunghill, foul-mouthed, thump-anyone-who-disagrees-with-me leatherneck he makes himself out to be would be able to take care of himself. Is this not the case?


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Ireland
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 08:45 AM

McG of H your not seriously suggesting that a full VCP should be set up in a war zone? That would be totally naive, Iraq is not N.Ireland,the Iraqi troops could target the area, neatly marked out with signs and traffic cones.

The troops need to be able to set up and go just as fast,load of nonsense asking for signs to be laid out, leaving troops vulnerable to attack.

I do not think that the VCP was handled correctly, and I'm saying this based on the reporters account. But I do have a question, why did the driver try to speed through? Considering the theory that the driver may have thought it was an Iraqi vcp, why should the driver be worried? if they thought it was a US vcp why should the driver be worried?

The reports show that the vcp was on a long road, to say it was anything near an ambush shows a little ignorance. You do not ambush people while hiding in the middle of the road with two big tanks right out in the open, why? because those you wish to ambush would see you and run off.

Is it true that the Captain, who said that the platoon just killed people because they did not fire a warning shot quick enough, was sent home. I was told the Capt. was on T.V. saying that his comments did not refer to the vcp incident.

I do agree with you that the slogans and images would not be conducive to winning over people, nor does the reports that show some US troop whooping it up on a tank after taking part in some action.

Is subtlety lost on some people, or that their actions do have consequences, who would support people who have such slogans as "This is for NYPD", which is to suggest this is in retaliation for Sept 11. This would indicate to Iraqi people that they were responsible for the Sept attack, and under these conditions,I understand why they have not greeted the US troops with open arms.

Should such associations to the NYPD or any reference to the Sept 11 attack be made in this war? I believe not and in doing so really cheapens the aims of the war to simple revenge.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 09:26 AM

Here is a link to the report of the checkpoint killing by William Branigin of the Washington post."You just killed a family because you didn't fire a warning shot".

And this is the crucial bit for me: "To try to prevent a recurrence, Capt Johnson ordered that signs be posted in Arabic to warn people to stop."

Confirming that such signs had not been placed previously. What kind of preparation has this army made for the very predictable situation they find themselves in? I think it is nonsense to suggest that putting them out at the time of setting up a road block would have meant putting soldiers at unreasonable risk of attack.

Even from a military point of view, in a situation like this, avoiding deaths like this has to be an absolute highest priority.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 09:51 AM

Bobert!!! Shame on you:

"I'm gonna have to hang with my position that a lot of folks have been caught up in some funky sh*t, with no way out. Black kids trying to escape poverty and the ghetto."

Now you know that is no way to talk about Colin Powell, or Kofi Annan, for that matter.

But this bit was hilarious - Bobert - you totally surpassed yourself:

"Now, as for Norton. Hey, he is from another group that you will never understand. But that's okay (A). Just know that that bridge has to be built and won't be built in our life time (B). It is too important to those who rule, control, manipulate and control the subject/working class to ever allow that divide to be bridged for it is a ceneter piece in their scheme to maintain their position (C). Though you may be a mere 28, once you understand this lesson, you will be infinately wiser.(D)

It ain't that "new and improved"... Divide and conquer....(A)

Meanwhile, the working class fight their wars, pay for their wars and end up dieing in poverty.(C)"

Taken from the above all sentences suffixed:

(A) - Standard Patronizing Bullshit.
(B) - Really Partonizing Bullshit.
(C) - Astronomically Cliched Patronizing Bullshit.
(D) - Mega-Patronizing Bullshit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST,Norton1
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 09:59 AM

McGrath - Your posting about one American troop with a questionable marking on his helmet is to be generalized to all of the troops over there? By that rationale one could assume that Lepus and Greg F represent all of you over here. How true is that?

And the incident with the van was explained quite well - warning shots were fired, a shot was fired into the engine compartment, PRIOR to any shots being fired into the interior of the van. A resident Muslim Cleric in the area was on TV stating that the Death Squads had ordered the women to do this or face having all of their families killed. Much the same as is being found with interviews of Iraqi troops that have surrendered.

Bobert - In light of your last posting I rest my case on who and what you are and why I prefer not to have you involved with my family. Your inference is in line with my assertion. Supporting one who supports Saddam and his death squads is really quite out of line with your normal posturing - that's too bad -

Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 10:19 AM

One wonders which "you" Lepus and I am supposed to represent and over where ????


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 10:29 AM

"Your posting about one American troop with a questionable marking on his helmet is to be generalized to all of the troops over there?"

Did I say that? The fact that he was wearing something like that openly is an indication, however, that he wasn't worried about trouble from his superiors. And they should worry about that kind of stuff and the message it sends to the world, and to people who might be undecided one way or another about whether this is a liberating army or a war of imperialist aggression.

William Branigin's account of what happened sounds a lot more convincing than the army account. Or any subsequent spinning operation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST,Norton1
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 10:37 AM

In a general response I would say that "you" represents the supposed "peace" folks who antagonize others, start fights and then say they were not wanting that, stray from topic to keep the fight going, are assholes and not truly looking for anything but a confrontation, infer that which is not stated or implied to return to jingoistic taunting behavior, and have a rabid need to "win" with the last word at all costs. "You" also are the folks that destroy proerty in the name of civil disobedience, physically attack those who countermarch, physically assault men and women in uniform as a "statement" of peace, make anonymous threats over the phone to people who have children fighting in Iraq, are bigots, racist, gay bashing, despising of anything that does not exactly meet your standard of what should be.

The problem being that your standard does not hold a steady line. Kind of like trying to direct the wind with your hand. "You" are about confrontation and imbecilic attitude simply for the sake of the argument and confrontation. Over here refers to Mudcat in a tiny way and the peace movement in splinter sectors. "You" are the ones who give the rest a bad name - just my opinion -

That's a few -

Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 10:53 AM

Typical Kevin,

"William Branigin's account of what happened sounds a lot more convincing than the army account. Or any subsequent spinning operation."

How much effort have you gone to, to investigate any of the above. The journalists happens to coincide with your prejudices so that automatically becomes the most believeable - maybe to you - but don't parade his version as being factual until such time as that has been proved to be the case.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Troll
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 11:14 AM

Greg, I stand by my statement. And I'm still breathing
As for Norton1, yeah, I imagine he can take care of himself without any help from me, but why should he have all the fun. After all, it's the Navy that gets the Marines where they need to go and we generally hang around after we drop them off. Just in case they need us.
Now I'm a 62 year-old with bad knees and ankles and I've had my butt kicked more than once, but I've never backed down from a fight of any kind and I think the same applies to Steve Norton.
I don't expect you can understand this kind of cameradery, I don't think you have the background knowledge that is required and I'm very sure you wouldn't want to do that which is necessary to obtain that knowledge.
Please understand that I am not making threats or beating my chest or any of that macho crap. I'm just stating a few simple truths.
If you can't understand or accept them, that's not my problem.

troll

BTW< Lepus, your line about Norton hitting you with his walker was a stitch. Only he doesn't get around with a walker. I believe he rides a Harley Davidson. There is a difference.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Wolfgang
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 11:24 AM

"There is a minority of intellectual pacifists whose real though unadmitted motive appears to be hatred of Western democracy and admiration of totalitarianism.
Pacifist propaganda usually boils down to saying that one side is as bad as the other but if one looks closely at the writings of younger intellectual pacifists, one finds
that they do not by any means express impartial disapproval but are directed almost entirely against Britain and the US. Moreover they do not as a rule condemn
violence as such, but only violence used in defense of Western countries." - George Orwell (in 1945), quoted in a letter to The Spectator
(GUEST posting this citation for about the sixth time in Mudcat history)

Some may want to read the whole article. I recommend it.

Georges Orwell's Notes on Nationalism

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 11:36 AM

Troll-I believe that the U.S., including Alaska, is larger than Canada, but I can't check right now; recall, however, that many of the early Canadians actually co-existed peacefully with the natives, which was much less frequently the case in the U.S. Siberia was not taken by force, nor was much of China, Tibet excluded; most of the People's Republic of China has been controlled by Chinese emperors for thousands of years, and it's hard to say whether conquest or assimilation was the original method of incorporation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 11:49 AM

Troll, its not that I can't or don't understand. I've just got a low tolerance for bombast.

For example: I am not making threats or beating my chest or any of that macho crap - you (and certainly Norton) sure could have fooled me. Maybe you both could work on your phrasing and delivery?

As for your surmise about what I can understand, what I would want to do, what background I have & the rest of it, as you state: "its not my problem" and, past a certain point, I really don't give a shit. Knock yourself out, if it amuses you.

Best, Greg


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST,Norton1
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 11:59 AM

Things like this are what I am referring to. Very productive for someone -

"I've just got a low tolerance for bombast." For someone so full of it - I can understand that. Mr. "Last word" you are welcome to my walker to assist you in packing all of it around! LOL

Troll - Thanks Brother - the walker thing had me laughing too. What a hoot!

Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Troll
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 12:22 PM

Lurker, go to Siberia as I have and talk to what is left of the native peoples. They will tell you, as they told me, how Siberia was conquered by force of arms. It started under the Czars and continued right up through the Soviets with native peoples being displaced, killed, or forced to work under the control of the state.
As for China, look at Tibet. It's only the most recent of a long list of armed conquests by the Han - the principal ethnic group in China. I used to have a web site bookmarked about the current situation in Inner Mongolia. I'll have to look it up again and I'll PM it to you if you like. Western China is not populated by Chinese at all but by Uighirs, a Turkic people. Now they are being displaced as the central government sends thousands of Han there as "colonists". There is an armed rebellion ongoing there. It's pretty low-key so far, but it exists. In 1945 this was the area in which the short-lived country of Turkestan was born. It died soon after under the weight of Maos Peoples Army.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Troll
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 12:26 PM

Forum Lurker, this isn't the one I was looking for but it'll do.
www.caccp.org/im/ - 26k - Apr 1, 2003

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Amos
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 12:46 PM

WOlfgang --

Thanks so much for the Orwell article. Admirable and analytical. IT is a little unnerving to measure the current situation against his yardsticks, I must say. But there is a difference in tempo between the world he was measuring and the one we ar ein now. It is difficult in the spate of high-speed, rapidly changhing facts, for example, to find out what the relative truth of the propositions being used in mass-think are -- such as "the people of Iraq will celebrartre liberation once they know Saddam is out of the picture". One of those things I would like to find true, but cannot in all honesty assert to be so.

I also think in times as volatile as these that there is a gray area between patriotism and nationalism; or at least I feel there is one, because of the constantly shifting probabilities of various 'facts' and assertions being bandied about. Even though we have thousands of times more on-site pictures and videos of the current developments than 20th Century intellectuals enjoyed concerning the ebb and flow of the second WW, we seem no better than they were at applying any rigor to our thinking about them.

A

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Amos
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 01:15 PM

A lot of students around the country protested the war today. The

National Youth and Student Peace Coalition sponsored an anti-war

organization called 'Books Not Bombs.' President Bush said, 'Why do

you want to drop books on them?'"

Jay Leno


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Wolfgang
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 01:17 PM

Amos,

I've read many books and articles by Orwell and I never fail to be fascinated both by language and thought. This man changed quite a bit through the experience of WWII. He is, admirably and with good arguments, a socialist in, for instance, 'Road to Wigan pier' before the war. During the war he started to realise that compared to the Barbarian alternative there was a lot worth to defend in that far from perfect prewar capitalist-democratic Britain. I've got a lot both of prewar and postwar Orwell in me and am torn between the two positions.

Sometimes I envy those who never have a doubt who is right and who's wrong, mostly I don't. I sometimes wish the discussions in Mudcat had more contributions from people with more open doubts. But that could be a theme for another thread.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 01:19 PM

So much for your prior promise of 'no response', eh, Snort'n? Good to know what your word is worth, or did you just run out of white-out? Gotcha! Pitiful.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 01:33 PM

Troll-all right, you win, though I don't remember what the original debate was about. If I remember correctly, Mongolia was first incorporated into the Chinese nation when the Mongols conquered China, killing millions of Chinese peasants. Not justifying the Chinese by any means, but pointing out that Chinese history is a little murkier than American, by virtue of being much longer.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 01:59 PM

On one of the national news broadcasts I saw a segment on (what they portrayed as) the widespread use of 9/11 sloganeering on weapons and uniforms. An officer was quoted on the need for inspiration for the troops: They had to feel an inspiration that was tangible/manageable.

I thought this rather depressing, but then again I do believe that inspiration is far important than intellectualizing, given their circumstances.

Any of us who feel self-righteous or smug (difficult to perceive in oneself, but it's sometimes possible with deep reflection) over their "feelings" or opinions or positions while sitting at home isn't thinking hard enough.

Dan

MAKE FUCK NOT KILL


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 02:06 PM

Oh, and on the further issue of the civilians reading such (English language) comments, what comes to mind is a variation on those "If you can read this, then . . . " bumper stickers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 03:25 PM

A message back to the Front

Dear Corporal Josh,

I appreciate you generosity for giving a writing credit to the dead soldiers. But for the sake of clarity, would you please tell me which
words are your and which are theirs. I see you are in Kuwait. When you do experience combat, when you kill an enemy or are wounded, will you please tell us how you feel then? It may well change your point of view. A lot of veterans from the last big war the USA fought were disappointed in the government and the generals. But it was people like you who paid the price.

I'd really like to thank you, you really feel you are protecting us, that thought is really kind. I am not so sure that what you are doing will bring us more security or more terror.

The people who have sent you over there have made your job a lot more difficult. They've not been at all clear about the reasons. In their arrogance they have sent you there less prepared than they could have been they have planned based upon popular uprising doing a lot of the work. They let Iraqis rebels die withing sight of their guns the last time yet are are so convinced of their righteousness that they expected the survivors and witnesses to get up and fight again. Through insults and bullying, they have robbed you of bases and resourses which could have made your mission safer and less bloody. Even one Muslim country fighting by your side could save a lot of lives on both sides.

In your poem you say we are protected by the best. You are young and proud and you need to believe that for your confidence. Keep this in mind though, there are some young men on the other side who feel exactly the same way. There were a lot of young men in Viet Nam who thought that their training and technology would keep them safe. There are fifty thousand names on a wall in Washington of those who also were the best.

We know you want to save the world, so do we. We know you are doing the right thing. Your job is important and you are doing it to the best of your abilities, without a hidden agenda and without greed We know that you Marines are very very good at what you do. I wish we could have the same confidence in our leaders.

I'm sure that you didn't mean to call all war protestors cowards. You will be pleased to know that when I feel that my country or my freedom needs protection from without. I'll wear the boots and carry a gun. Right now I believe that this country needs protection from it own leaders. So I'm speaking out.

Rob Dale, and all of the soldiers, women and children who died because of the blunders of leaders and generals.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 03:38 PM

Wolfgang:

Very well said. Some kinds of certainty are luxuries paid for by the suspension of thought, eh?

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 04:04 PM

So if you are watching a television screen and a picture of a soldier with "Kill 'em all" on his helmet comes up, you are standing too close to him?

The point I'm making is, a slogan like that gives a clear message - "The army this man belongs to is here to kill civilians" is what it is saying, and that is not a good message to give people you want to win over to your side. It's also not a true message, I'm sure, so far as the vast majority of soldiers are concerned. Very likely it isn't even true of the individual soldier concerned - though I think it might be reckless to risk putting him in a situation where he might act out his fantasies.

And I think that the suggestion that colluding with that kind of thing on the grounds of "the need for inspiration for the troops" is way off line. It's encouraging the kind of attitudes that threaten to undermine the whole stated purpose of this invasion. It's a way of thinking that is likely to mean more dead civilians, and more dead soldiers among the invasion force.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 04:14 PM

I thought of that "watching it on TV" point, too, but didn't want to do a three-in-a-row posting.

I don't disagree with anything you've said above or just now. They make a big deal about not displaying U.S. flags as an indication to the civilians that they are not a force of invaders/conquerors. Talk about your mixed messages.

I only added a simple, "but nobody's shooting at me" observation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 04:59 PM

Just got round to checking your link above, Snort'n, out of idle curiousity. Did you forget to take your haloperidol again? What the hell am I supposed to have to do with some dickheads desecrating a cemetery in France?

That and your rambling, incoherent temper-tantrum about all those mean and nasty "'peace' folks" that are out to get you- didn't realize you saw yourself as such a victim. Your attempt to damn me by association with your list of nasties is really amusing- inept and bogus though it may be. You really are completely, utterly clueless. Also, do try for some consistency: either we're a bunch of cowardly wusses, or we go around assaulting soldiers; you can't have it both ways.

Do get back on your meds- for all our sakes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 05:05 PM

Point taken, Kevin, problem being that the "stated purpose" of the envasion is completely bogus.

Just noticedd the "e" for "i" typo - but think I'll let it stand.

Best, Greg


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Troll
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 05:09 PM

Jack the Sailor. i suppose that you feel that you had to write your letter back so that your particular point of view. You had every right to do so and that right is one of the things that young men like Josh sign up to defend. He is about to go and lay his life on the line in a cause that he obviously feels is just.
If your letter causes him or any of his fellows to doubt their leaders at a critical moment, causing injury or death, it is my hope that you will somehow know and that the knowledge of that will haunt you to your grave.
If you had tried, I don't think you could ahve written a more damaging piece or one that was in poorer taste.
I eagerly await your "defense" of your action. It will be interesting in the extreme to see how you justify it.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 05:34 PM

Troll-Do you honestly believe that JtS's letter could cause a soldier such a crisis of faith that he would be unable to defend himself, or are you just trying to score rhetoric points by making an honest expression of opinion look dangerous?


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Troll
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 05:52 PM

Rhetoric points mostly but I wasn't trying to make it look dangerous. I just feel that it was in very poor taste and gave a hypothetical reason why.
Let me also say, however, that many things go through your mind in combat and no one needs something like that to complicate an already perilous situation. Every soldier knows, at least in the last couple of wars, that not everyone back home agrees with the war. But kids like Josh and his buddies, who have written what is essentially a plea for support as they go off to risk their lives, do not need to hear it. What they need to hear is that they have the support of the folks back home.
JtS may have been expressing an honest opinion and he had every right to do so. It's just that sometimes it's better to remain silent and I feel that this was one of those times. His letter showed -to me- much more concern for making his political point than for the mental welfare of the young man he addressed it to.
As I said before, I felt and still feel that it was in very poor taste. I hope this clears up any confusion you may have had.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 05:55 PM

Troll-He did, however say "I'd really like to thank you" and "We know you are doing the right thing." Sounds like support to me. I suppose it might not be viewed in that light, but tehe intent is there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 06:00 PM

"Those who profess to favor freedom, and yet depreciate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground. They want rain without thunder and lightning. They want the ocean without the awful roar of its waters. This struggle may be a moral one; or it may be a physical one; or it may be both moral and physical; but it must be a struggle! Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did, and it never will. Find out just what people will submit to, and you have found out the exact amount of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them; and these will continue until they are resisted with either words or blows, or with both. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress." -- Frederick Douglass, August 4, 1857.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: TIA
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 06:28 PM

Troll's 5:52 PM post raises a damn good question.

{my words, not his, to follow}

How can one vocally and publicly oppose the war (our absolute right, and, to many, an obligation) without risking that those who are too young, too ideologically different, too short on the full text of the debate, too damn busy staying the f--- alive, or too whatever will not understand your political, ideological, economic or humantiarian point, and just take it personally? Is it even possible in a world where incomplete video bites are transmitted live across the globe? And, if it isn't, which is more likely to save lives, lessen suffering, and promote world peace - anti-war activities, or shuttin' up and pretending to go along?

I got no good answers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Troll
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 06:33 PM

Lurker, have you heard the expression, "Damning with faint praise"?

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 07:13 PM

The intent was to say that I support the young men but not the Administration. Some protesters of Viet Nam war were stupid and cruel enough to blame the soldiers for the war. I am not.

That first letter was not a request for support, it was a political statement. He is in Kuwait and claimed to speak for dead men. I am in Georgia. I tried to point out that there are other dead people who need to be thought of. I pointed out that thinking that he is the best doesn't shield him from the enemy. I pointed out that there are brave people at home doing what they feel is right. I'm not pointing it out to Corporal Josh, I'm point that out to people like you. If you think that is in poor taste, Troll, then so be it. Except for a few typos I'll stand by every word.


And Troll
with regard the stuff about a note in the Mudcat "Haunting me to my grave" could you be more childish and melodramitic? At least it tells me how much creedance to give to everything else you say.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 07:22 PM

TIA, your question is a good one. One thing to remember that the War mongers can't wait to get boys in harms way for that reason. It could well be the reason they started the war a month before all of their troops were in place. The thing about Rumsfeld's rolling start is that it is a start. It is very difficult for a country to stop a war once it has been started.

Think of all the young men who died in Viet Nam because presidents and generals were to proud to admit mistakes. Who kept the war going long after it was lost because they didn't want to seem weak.

The people who are running this war are using propaganda on the Iraqis, the rest of the world and on people in this country. Why else would they claim that opposing the war or questioning their plans is "anti American"?


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 08:38 PM

TIA-It's a very good question, and one which is answered differently in every case. I would respond that in this case, it is most important that the administration realize that the war is not fully supported, and the people know that it is unjust, so that it is not repeated. I think our soldiers are morally stalwart enough to defend themselves and each other, even if they do not believe that everyone supports them; I think that everyone else objecting to war protests on behalf of the soldiers, with the thankfully rare exceptions of those protestors who do blame the soldiers, should let us get our message out, in the interests of the freedoms we all care about.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 10:29 PM

"In a general response I would say that "you" represents the supposed "peace" folks who antagonize others, start fights and then say they were not wanting that, stray from topic to keep the fight going, are assholes and not truly looking for anything but a confrontation, infer that which is not stated or implied to return to jingoistic taunting behavior, and have a rabid need to "win" with the last word at all costs. "You" also are the folks that destroy proerty in the name of civil disobedience, physically attack those who countermarch, physically assault men and women in uniform as a "statement" of peace, make anonymous threats over the phone to people who have children fighting in Iraq, are bigots, racist, gay bashing, despising of anything that does not exactly meet your standard of what should be. "

Boy, Norton, are you ever confused. (It's called projection, I believe.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 10:29 PM

Well danged, Teribus! I oughtta stick my head in here more often. Heck of a food fight.

Hey, I din't want your A,B,C & D to go unappreciated. What kind of slide rule did you use on that? My Wes Ginny slide rule would like to spend a few minutes with yours in a dark alley... Jus funnin'.

But really, if you are wondering what you're getting for you tax dollars this weeks from Bush's PR folks it's the old "Support the Troops" crapola from the Vietnam days. Same tune.

"Yer either with us 'er yerz aginst us!"

I'd find it funny if it weren't such a simplistic, divisive, controling joke that was being played on a dumbed down population.

Yeah, you can bet that the great *Spitting Lie* is not far behind!

This ain't about supporting troops. It's about Bush and his warmonging cronies who stand to get rich from a bunch of working class American kids get killed and maimed while doing the same to folks in Iraq.

Yeah, I support out troops. Bring 'em, home, put Bush on trial for genocide, and get someone in the White House who has a better vision of the the US's role in leading the world into a *much better place*.

But, T-Bird, don't think for one moment that you're ABC's exercize has not gone unappreciated!

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Troll
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 12:08 AM

JtS you are correct. I should not have made the "haunt you to your grave" remark. It was a wasted effort since I should have realized that expressing your opinion was much more important to you than any damage you might inflict on a frightened kid. How very mature of you.
That you will no longer place any credence in anything I might say does not disturb me in the least. In fact, it could be construed as a compliment. Your approval or disapproval of my thoughts and utterances is not a requirement for my continued well-being.
If you should hook the giant radio telescope at Arrecibo, P.R. to the Hubble Space Telescope, you would STILL be unable to detect how very little your opinion of me or anything I do affects my life.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 12:39 AM

Amos, I wouldn't have been at that checkpoint in the first place, so it's hard to say. I think I'd have just gotten out of the way, to be honest.

And thanks. But I might not make it to 30, if Norton1 has anything to say about it. :)

Bobert, if they didn't think they might have to kill someone in the military, they aren't very bright. And that there has been only one American conscientious objector so far (that I know of), tells me that most of them really don't mind killing Iraqis all that much. Sorry, but I have no sympathy for such people.

And Norton1 drives a Harley, not a walker, eh, Troll? OK, then. Let me amend my earlier statement: "I wouldn't fight you, no matter how hard you hit me with your white-trash motorbike."

Better?

---Lepus Rex

PS, Kat, yet again: Yeah, I got the "barely" thing the first time... I was kidding around. :)


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 01:06 AM

"It was a wasted effort since I should have realized that expressing your opinion was much more important to you than any damage you might inflict on a frightened kid."

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Troll
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 01:40 AM

JtS, after a long discussion with Skeptic, I have come to the realization that what we have here is a difference in perception.
You read Joshuas poem and saw a political statement that you felt needed a rebuttal.
I read it and saw a 20-year-old kid asking for reassurance.
Your perception was colored by the fact that you are actively Anti-war and I guess that it's pretty important to you that your thoughts on the subject be known
Mine was colored by the realization that it could have been written by my son, who just turned 20.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 04:26 AM

Troll, I am very pleased that you have stopped the rhetoric. You are very lucid and persuasive when you talk more openly. I hope you appreciate the following explaination. I don't think that we are as far apart as it may seem.

The kid is calling protestors cowards. Cowards who don't love their country. Its a very common attitudes among the arm chair war hawks who often frequent these forums. I'm not actively anti war. but if that kid wants to send a message that he thinks that people who protest the war are against him. I want to see him told that there are other issues and that those who are against the war are not against him.

The protestors against Viet Nam saved a lot of lives. The government didn't give the troops the support they needed and they didn't fight the war to win. They expected the South Vietnamese to rise up and defeat the North just as Cheney expected the shi'ites to defeat Saddam. The Ba'ath party and Saddam's paramilitary seem to be very similar to the Viet Cong and no doubt Saddam considers himself to be at least the equal of Ho Chi Mihn. I don't want the kids over there now to go through what that generation did. General Powell's doctrine for the last war was overwhelming force. Mr. Rumsfeld's is do more with less. Lets not lets Mr. Rumsfeld's pride cost American lives.

Is your son in a war zone. Has he been told that those protests are about him? If that is so please tell him that the vast majority of people who are criticizing the war realize that it wasn't his decision. They are grateful for what he does and they will be glad to welcome him home when this is over. And tell him to watch his ass because even the best can die when their unit is outnumbered on enemy turf.

I'd be for the war if it were being run better. But I'm really concerned about the ability and credibility of the administration. I would like for them, to stop waffling about the reasons, to stop telling lies and spreading propaganda that no one believes and I would like for Rumsfeld in particular, to be a man and take responsibility as Secretary of Defense and to stop spreading the the blame and the heat down the line to his generals. He is setting a horrible example, an example that I believe the vast majority of US officers way have to much honor to copy, but a bad example never the less.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Troll
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 05:41 AM

My son is not in the military. He is a professional musician who is presently working in Japan. But there is very little difference between a 20-year-old-marine and a 20-year-old fiddle player when they feel let down and alone. I've had experience with both. There is, of course, the danger quotient, which is of some importance to someone older, but to kids, worries over the pregnant wife and worries over death or injury can be of nearly equal importance.
As I said, I've had a bit of experience in dealing with both.
These young Marines are taught love of Corps and Country above all else. It HAS to be done this way. They cannot question their orders or the reasons behind them because,if they do, they and -infinitely worse- their buddies may die. This, BTW, is common to all military organizations; it's just a little more developed in the Marines.
So, when they here of anti-war protests, they can only conclude one of two things. One, the protesters are anti-American, or, two, they are cowards.
With the certainty of youth, they can see no other options and their interactions with each other reinforce these beliefs. Any attempts to convince them otherwise are generally futile.
If you thinl this isn't so, try to convince the average 20-year-old that they shouldn't drink and drive, or smoke, or that a boom-box car with the gain all the way up will damage their hearing. You might as well save your breath.
The things I warned my daughter against at 20, she did anyway. At 30, she came to me and admitted that I had been right, but at 20, she didn't want to hear it.
The same thing applies with our young poet. He doesn't want to hear - and he will not hear- that there are two sides to the question.He only wants to hear that we think that he is doing the right thing and that he's an ok person. To say anything else does not instruct. It only alienates or worse, causes self-doubt at a time when he needs all the self-confidence he can muster.
Because he won't decide not to go. Right now, the Corps and his buddies are his world and he will die before he lets them down. This is what I was talking about and this is what I think you don't understand.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 08:44 AM

Sorry, Troll, but no, it does not HAVE to be done that way. Man and women can be (and are!)trained up into an efficient fighting force without brainwashing them into imbecility. The two aren't necessarily mutually exclusive.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: TIA
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 09:15 AM

Troll, I think I understand and agree with (sort of) your point. You said "These young Marines are taught love of Corps and Country above all else. It HAS to be done this way. They cannot question their orders or the reasons behind them..." I understand that.
But, I hear people using that thought as the first step down a very slippery slope:

1) Marines are conditioned to not question orders.

2) therefore, they cannot understand why civilians back home are questioning the orders,

3) therefore civilians who question the orders are undermining the Marines,

4) therefore the civilians questioning the orders are committing treason,

5) therefore, the only patriotic course of action is for everyone (civilian and military) to not question the orders or the reasons behind them.

I said it was a first step, but as I write this, I realize that I have heard many people in the last month take all 5 steps.

People are following these five steps to a scarey new USA that was never intended by our great founders.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 11:10 AM

I doubt very much if brainwashed soldiers are in fact more effective soldiers. My impression is that this is how some of the most effective fighting units in the world see things as well.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Troll
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 11:28 AM

I never meant to suggest that they are "brainwashed" but if anyone choses to interpret it that way, so be it. I will say that I give a lot more credence in matters of this kind to the opinions of those who actually have some military (not necessarily combat) experience and not just their ideas are more likely to agree with mine.
It is simply that it is not easy to explain military training to someone who has never experienced it.
Do we have any ex DIs or Boot Pushers out there who would like to make a stab?
Greg, I never suggested "brainwashing them into imbecility" but a certain amount of indoctrination and discipline is necessary. You cannot hold committee meetings in a firefight. I think the Russians tried something of the sort under Lenin with the Political Commissars and quickly gave it up. I could be wrong tho. It's been many years since I read any Soviet history.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 11:50 AM

a certain amount of indoctrination and
discipline is necessary. You cannot hold committee meetings in a firefight


Of course it is, and of course you can't. Absolutely no disagreement from me. But if indeed the result is that they can only conclude one of two things. One, the protesters are anti-American, or, two, they are cowards then something is obviously amiss with their brainwashing err, training.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 02:01 PM

As necessary as that sort of training and fighting mentality may be, it is equally necessary for people of conscience to stand up to their government when they percieve it to be doing something wrong. As others have pointed out, the people who protested the Vietnam War helped bring that war to an end. Even some of the top people responsible for that war now agree that that war was wrong.

So the reality of war protesters is something those brave young people fighting overseas are just going to have to learn to live with. I'm sure they are up to the challenge.

I think that when people over here start flinging a lot of angry sounding rhetoric at the people who oppose the war, they aren't helping the young people overseas one little bit. All they are doing is further poisoning the environment that those young people will be coming home to. I think they would be helping those young people a lot more if they would use a less vitriolic way of trying to make their points. The bigger the chasm between people here at home, the more the returing service people will suffer when they get back.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 02:51 PM

Troll, Did you see "Black Hawk Down" One of the Delta force guy tells a young Ranger that Once the fighting starts politics goes out the window. You are fighting for the guy next to you. I don't think what I have said could possibly make a marine forget that. The equation changes when you and your buddies are relying on one another for their lives.

Carol is right about one thing. Deamonizing a third the people the kid is supposed to be protecting doesn't help any. The strongest "anti protestor" rhetoric, seems to come from middle aged men. Men feel the need to attack, they can't get at Bin Laden so they build up fantasies in their mind about the protesters being agents of the enemy and they therefor. These men get immense satisfaction from fighting with the protestors. That behavior is just as bad for the young men as the anti war protests. We are all be much better off with civil discussion, like the discussion we are now having in this thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: artbrooks
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 03:02 PM

Reasoned protest is an excellent idea, and as applicable to the "anti-war" protesters who stand outside the gate of our local Air Force Base and yell "murderer" to the familes of deployed servicemen and women as it is to those who would interfere with lawful dissent.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 03:06 PM

This from our little thug Lepus -

"If you ever want real violence, boy, come to me."

Yep - skin heads are really bad - I'm a quivering boy - just a quivering - you and greg have me really worried here - couple of bottom feeders that should have been aborted early in the process.

Sorry about the turn JtS (puky retort to the kids BTW) but I don't think another thread will start up here - too much lumping to get much of anything sorted out.

Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 03:12 PM

Reasoned protest is an excellent idea, and as applicable to the "anti-war" protesters who stand outside the gate of our local Air Force Base and yell "murderer" to the familes of deployed servicemen and women as it is to those who would interfere with lawful dissent.

You'll get no disagreement from me on that point, artbrooks. And you won't ever see me condoning that sort of behavior on the part of "anti-war" protesters, either.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST,Kegler300
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 03:21 PM

Lepus Rex and Greg F - you two are friggin idiots! Liberal halfwitted scumbags that don't have a clue! Does your mommy know you two are playing with her computer? Idiots...


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST,The Rock......
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 03:21 PM

Lupus Rex, you don't know what your talking about and you obviously have no operational knoweldge of the military. You keep you delusional ideas about the military. It would be folly to try and educate someone who does not wish to learn. I just thank God every single day that their are still enough people in the USA to get the job done while slackers like you bitch and whine, drink beer, and go to your important jobs at 7-11 every day, or go to some terrorist supporting college to get a daily dose of America hating 101. Lupus Rex, I spit on you face you ass wipe!


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST,Guest, Teufelhunden0311
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 03:26 PM

Lepus, Lepus, Lepus.....
I just have to jump in on this one.......your ignorance is unprecedented. Your arrogance unjustified.
Your lack of patriotism revolting.
And your nickname completely laughable.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST,Guest, Teufelhunden0311
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 03:28 PM

Greetings Rock and Norton


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST,Marinefromhell
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 03:30 PM

What a bunch of wussyboys on this thread. Norton1 told me there were holier than thou igno's here. Christ on a Crutch, Lupussy hex, Hope you sleep well tonight--hope you get enough momma tit too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 03:33 PM

Norton1 these people are laughable.
Have any of you tre hugging, peace loving fraks even had the experience of being in a third world country? Let alone growing up in one?


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST,GuitarPlayer116
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 03:34 PM

Stop being such a little girl Lepus Rex.

It's no wonder you play such crap music.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 03:34 PM

Hey Teufelhunden, we took the Baghdad Aiport today. Hooah!


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 03:35 PM

My, my, my. Devil Hound is standing on the Rock and yelling at King Rabbit. These guys are probably working for Avon.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST,The Rock
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 03:37 PM

Beleive me you little pussy, you wouldn't want none of this. Now, tell where your women are before I bitch slap the shit out of you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST,Colorado
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 03:48 PM

.....I certainly hope the musicians who would wish ill will on others on this forum are not from Colorado, as I DO happen to like some folk music.

Let me know if you are, so that I do not patronize those that have psychological issues.

I appreciate music, though I have little or no knowledge of the art.

Commute on my bicycle, wear Birkenstocks, recycle, etc. But a Marine, to the bone.

I know what I like, but I do not pass judgement, or wish I'll will to those that I don't understand.

'Work for Avon'? Maybe a few of us would care to identify our professional endeavors, not that it should matter...................


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST,The Rock.....
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 03:50 PM

Let's keep'em guessing for awhile........long live James Taylor!


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 03:50 PM

Steve, are these people your friends from the Marine Forum?


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 03:54 PM

Hey Norton thanks for not threatening to beat me up. Its a start.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: artbrooks
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 03:56 PM

Carol, my guess would be that it's all the same person, and he/she has just gotten home from middle school.

Art


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST,The Rock
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 03:58 PM

Nice try artyboy, that may be a tactic you use, but in this case you can beleive this buddy. There can only be one Rock, one Alpha Male, and that would be me....line up ladies.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Big Mick
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 04:07 PM

Children, could we be civil? You are showing me that you are likely not combat vets at all, but rather a bunch of wannabe's. Norton, I have great respect for you, but if these are your "friends" would you please call them off? This type of discourse does nothing to further your cause. Lepus and Greg are obviously talking through their hats, and have not had any experience in that to which they speak.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 04:09 PM

I see that you men are visiting us from this forum:

Marine Open Discussion


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 04:09 PM

And we have definetly not just gottne home from any school...we long ago graduated school, most of us from the school of hard knocks.
And some from the Island and some form the West Coast...but all in the same gun club!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST,The Rock...
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 04:13 PM

And I graduated in the hills of Kentucky, I'm not a Marine. I got no beef with any of you except the ass hats who while having the freedom to be stupid, they object to the fact that we have the perfect right to bring it to thier attention.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST,The Rock...
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 04:15 PM

Big Mick, don't get me going dude. I am a combat vet, point blank.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 04:16 PM

I've got to tell you The Rock, behavior like that of you and your buddies certainly doesn't give me very much confidence in our troops overseas if you are representative of them in any way. I certainly hope you are not.

Steve. You have gone completely round the bend. You need some help. I suggest you get it soon.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 04:16 PM

Thanks, Norton1, for inviting your flamer pals. You're such a dear. ;}

---Lepus Rex

Norton1's invitiation:

Want to tell a couple of Bottom feeding idiots what you think?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The link below will take you to the Mudcat Forum. It's a place where folk musicians hang out. Two individuals are just sick puppies - maybe they need a dose of you all to assist them in venting their rage. The two in particular are Lepus Rex and Greg F - read the whole thread before you reply. You do not need to register and if you put no name in you will show as a guest.

Have a riot - I should have given you, ipscone, this a long time ago. Oh well - never too late -

Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Big Mick
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 04:18 PM

Norton, I have just visited the site. Brother, you need to apologize. That was inexcusable. I am very disappointed in you and your fellow Marines. When you do what you did, you lowered yourselves to the same level as those you criticise. Lepus and Greg should only strike you as young people talking about something which they have no experience at, and as know it alls that will learn as they grow. To be sure their comments are stupid, but why bother? And are we now going to have a bunch of young, hotshit, full of themselves, Marines patrolling the Mudcat and blasting anyone who doesn't fit their narrow view of what is right? Are they going to start attacking me and my patriotism because I don't fit their view of what is right? Where is their sense of honor?

How could you?

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST,The Rock....
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 04:20 PM

Gee, I wonder why you don't talk to Lupus Rex the same way. Okay I can tone it down. You don't have confidence in our troops, hell lady, what else do they have to do to earn it? They are doing excellent work while you and your guitar pickin friends sit back here and snipe at them. How about a little support? A little encouragement for christs sake? Is that too much to expect? What ever happend to support the troops even if you disagree with the war? I frankly don't care what you think of me. I know what I've done, I know what I've sacraficed, and when I hear people talk out their ass, it gets my dander up know what I mean? I can be nice CarolC, I really can, give me a chance, Pleeeeeeeese!


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 04:23 PM

You know nothing about me The Rock. So don't presume. Check out my posts in the beginning of this thread. But when I said what I did in those posts, I wasn't talking about people like you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 04:25 PM

Guest, Quit pretending your 10 people unless you are seriously ill with schizophrenia, which then you can be forgiven.
McGrath- I have heard this sentiment too many times from people who are pro-war, "We should just wipe all those Iraqi bastards off the face of the earth." I do not mean to generalize here. I am just saying I have heard it, and I can't see a reason for saying it except racism being involved.
I have a problem when generalizations about pro-peace people are made. For the most part, we are pro-troops and have been labeled by media anti-troops. I do not want harm to come to any of the children of this war. I do not want the violence and death and blood on anyones hands. I have seen what Vietnam did to the vets. I have seen too many fucked up heads after that war and I don't like the idea of this new generation of kids having to face the same head shit the Vietnam vets did. I hope it doesn't happen. I hope they come home sooner than later. I tried to be a part of saving the troops from going into this war, now all I can do is be a part of trying to get them home.
Peace. Rustic


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 04:27 PM

Okay, how about a clean slate? Maybe I grouped you in with those two shitbags. Can we be friends CarolC? First you gotta tell me you respect the military though or we'll get nowhere fast.....


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Big Mick
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 04:27 PM

Rock, I could care less what you are. What makes you think you have a lock on that? Or is that some kind of threat? Trust me, you bark up the wrong tree with me on that one.

Your disruption of this conversation shows a lack of good judgement. The best thing to do with know it all jerks is to ignore them.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 04:27 PM

So Norton you invited a bunch of you friends to come a call out some playground names. Please tell me how this supports the kids overseas.

Rock its kinda hard to believe that "alpha male". It's my experience that the more scared a dog is the more he barks. You are barking like a toy poodle. Ebbie is a woman, I doubt that she has any women for you. Its also my experience that guys who brag about their manhood like you do have "problems" down below. Perhaps this will help. For the Rock

I know all retired ex marines aren't like y'all. It's kinda interesting how so many immature grown men found each other.

Now, do ya want to have a dicsussion or are ya gonna call us some more names. I seem to recall a rhyme from childhood, something about sticks and stones....


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 04:27 PM

This is for Greg F's benefit....just a sample of his ignorance.

From 1927 to 1941, a unit of the United States Marine Corps, the Fourth Marines, was assigned to Shanghai, China, where its members were able to observe firsthand some of the events that led to World War Two. The Fourth Marines sailed to Shanghai from their home base in San Diego, California in February 1927 in order to protect American citizens and property in Shanghai's International Settlement. Initially, the threat to the Americans came from a conflict internal to China, but, within a few years, it evolved into one resulting from the tensions between China and Japan.

During their fourteen years in Shanghai, the Fourth Marines were exposed to activities that would not gain the full attention of most Americans until the United States became directly involved in the war. Although the Fourth Marines were a relatively small unit (consisting at various times of between 1,200 to 1,600 men) awash in a sea of 3,000,000 Chinese nationals and tens of thousands of other foreign citizens living in Shanghai, they affected the local economy as well as local opinions of Americans, serving as "unofficial ambassadors" to the local populace. Likewise, their opinions of Chinese citizens and culture were shaped by their experiences in Shanghai.

The traditional role of the Marines has been one of a seagoing assault force, as opposed to one of a permanent ground force. Therefore, the Fourth Marines' prolonged presence in Shanghai was rather unique. Extended periods of military inactivity and relegation to the status of a quasi-police force in a war zone had a strong impact on the perceptions and morale of the members of the Fourth Marines. Their actions and opinions were directly shaped by the role to which they were assigned in Shanghai.

However the Corps does not teach us about our history?
Now, for Lupussy, I am not an aging man, I'll give you my address and then let's see if you can come here and "whoop me", kid.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST,Guest Teufelhunden 0311
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 04:29 PM

I'm sorry, that last one is from me


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST,The Rock....
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 04:30 PM

Nope, my posts were intended for the two shitbags who know who they are. Big Mick, please don't beat me up. Jack the Sailor. Okay, I'm ready to get serious CarolC okay. Fair enough. What do you want to know about me?


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 04:30 PM

The Rock, I have tremendous respect for military people who have honor, dignity, and integrity.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST,asshatiusMaximus
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 04:33 PM

You people need to get down on your knees and thank whatever god you might worship that people are willing to give their lives so you might spout off the sewage I have read here!

Some say musicians are enlightened after reading through this forum I find this very hard to believe! Have any of you ever visited an oppressed Third World Country? I suspect that you are to comfortable in your nice soft life to visit anywhere but your local Starbucks!

Put down your signs with your senseless slogans because you look stupid holding them and chanting like a bunch of trolls! You have given nothing to this great Nation you only take, take, take because that is your way! You are ungrateful and do not appreciate the right that were bought in other peoples blood and lives, You squander what has been given to you and you only think of yourselves!

I for one am sick and tired of hearing you run your sewers! I am not alone and I am proud to say that we outnumber you!! Open your eyes! You are a bunch of self centered whiny brats that need a spanking! You hate this country, You spit on our way of life! I challenge you to find somewhere else to live! I hear Iran is looking for some "Artists" Go ahead put your money where your mouths are, Or are you too cowardly to do this? Coward now that is a word you should know well!

I know you don't care and you will not take to heart anything said here, You will go back to sipping your Starbucks and smoking your weed, Just think about who gave you your freedoms.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST,The Rock..
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 04:33 PM

And I have tremendous respect for people who have tremendous respect for the military people who have honor and dignity. I will say this one more time. I was flaming those two buttnuggets. Not you CarolC or Big Mick or Jack the Sailor, you guys were collateral damage. Now, I'll just leave if you want it don't matter to me. But if you want to verify I'm who I say I am, you guys can ask me any question you want and I'll try to answer it. Maybe then we can clear the air, how bout it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST,Guest Teufelhunden 0311
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 04:36 PM

Hey Jack the bitch boy, there is no such thing as an EX Marine


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST,The Rock....
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 04:38 PM

Jack, you said "Ex Marine"? Ooooh man........I'm not a Marine, but let me clue you in. Once a Marine, always a Marine, till the day you die.......


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 04:38 PM

OK Rock, this is what I seriously think. I don't want those kids thinking half this country and most of the people in NATO are against them. I want to make it clear that there are many other reasons to protest other than being "Anti Troop". I want them to know that anyone who plans to spit on these young people when they come home will have 99% of the people in this country against them. Thats why I said what I did. I don't even read posts by Lepus Rex, He lost my interest a long time ago.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 04:40 PM

I wonder...
How many here are from Columbia Unversity?
Berkeley?
How many here hold a college education?
How many here have family in the military?
How many here have a clue what it is like to live in an oppressing government?


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Big Mick
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 04:41 PM

Rock, just ignore those idiots. Everyone will not agree with your assessment, but that does not mean they are not worthy of respect. And those idiots who are clearly talking out of their ass are not worthy of any respect.

Just so you will understand where I come from on all this, READ THIS.

All the best,

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST,Guest Teufelhunden 0311
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 04:42 PM

Yet again i forgot that was me also


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 04:43 PM

EX-cuse me. :) I didn't mean to offend. What is the correct phrase? Retired Marine?


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST,Teufelhunden 0311
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 04:44 PM

Yes Jack, retired Marine is better.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST,The Rock.....
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 04:45 PM

They can take the truth Jack, they are in life and death situations right now. There is nothing they can't handle and if the news is right,there are ALOT of people who can't wait till they come home so they can throw red paint on them and call them baby killers. And the truth is France, Germany, and Belgium are anti American. Funny thing is that when I see the news, when I see Internet sites, all I see are placards with picutures of our commander in chief painted up to look like Hitler. "No blood for oil" blah blah blah blah. But never have I seen a placard that says, I love our troops and an anti war demonstration. As for Lupus Rex, your right, he is an idiot who doesn't deserve to breathe the same air as the members of our Armed Forces.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Ireland
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 04:45 PM

This is sad, I sympathised with Norton1 because I could understand his anger when the efforts of his family were being disgracefully attacked.

I still have respect for those of his family in Iraq, lets hope they do not see this debacle that is in their name. Norton you are letting them down please stop this crap for your families sake.
                           or
Take the serving troops out of the equation and get on with the my todger is bigger than yours contest, to associate it with the military is a disgrace to your units. And a disservice to those who serve.

Why bitch and moan about fighting your freedom and then people use that freedom shoot em down. This nonsense negates the sacrifice made.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 04:47 PM

Thanks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 04:58 PM

Rock there are a lot more people who support them. Even amog the protesters. The vast majorty of Frenchmen and Germans don't get on the news. They are mature enough to seperate the young men from the policies which sent them there. It is the assholes that get the publicity. You rarely do see placards saying, "Be sensible" or Stop whining" and if someone were to carry such signs, they'd never get on the news. In the news coverage, what you see are the whiney attention hounds. Those who say outrageous thing to get attention get the most attention, just as Lepus and Greg did hear. As you can see, they certainly do not speak for the majority.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 05:06 PM

Why is everyone dragging Greg into this? I don't think he's said anything "outrageous," to be honest. In fact, his views seem to be in line with those of the majority here, with a sort of "support the trops by bringing them home"-type message. He just happened to get on Norton1's bad side. So lay off, dickweeds. I'm the (anti-troops) one you hate. :)

---Lepus Rex


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 05:06 PM

Big Mick, you've made me cry. Talk about heart-felt writing. Thanks for pointing out that post.
Peace. Rustic


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: artbrooks
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 05:08 PM

I am extremely sorry that a person I respected saw fit to invite a bunch? of individuals? to participate in what had been a reasonably polite discussion. It would seem that their principle contribution will be to provide ammunition to the minority that are truly anti-military.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST,Teufelhunden 0311
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 05:12 PM

And agai, lupussy, I invite you to come here and kick MY ass. I don't think you have the nuts bitchboy


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST,Norton1
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 05:38 PM

Well what would you suggest Mick? I got tired of those two bottom feeders - and the e-mail lepus sent was deleted for a reason - he's just a sick pup. Figured you all would enjoy bumping noses with the far right for a change. Kind of puts it all in perspective doesn't it?

But the good side of this - Lepus told me he loves me - said I was his heroooo - now ain't that sweet?

Anyone wants a copy of the e-mail that lupus sent me I'll be glad to send it on -

And I doubt that many of you had much respect for my views anyway. When I was solid for peace and no war I was good to go here - when I changed my opinion then the persona non grata began. Do or don't respect - makes no difference -

Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: SINSULL
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 05:44 PM

Yes, Mick. Thanks. It is the first time I ever felt the need to defend you and felt a little silly doing it. For our guests: Big Mick is huge. And I wanted to respect your wishes - if you did not care enough about them to share your background, I was not about to interfere.

Rock - I have seen numerous signs at peace rallies saying "Bring our children home safe". Lepus is the only person I know of who wishes them harm. I do not know his story but assume chemical dependency or mental illness is at the base of his animosity.

Gentlemen (and ladies?) joining us from the Marine site. I understand your outrage. I even understand Norton!'s frustration at the earlier posts leading to his invitation to you to set us straight. Although I too object to his use of this site for a flame war. Now that you are here, I would welcome any ideas you choose to share. You will find intelligent, well informed posters who do not resort to name calling and personal attacks whemn they meet opposition.

Lastly, I am deeply saddened at the inhuman disregard shown to one of our members who was asking for respect and consideration for his daughter who has put herself in harm's way for us - WHETHER YOU WANTED HER TO OR NOT IS NOT THE ISSUE. This group has always celebrated the birth of a child - Max's, Wesley's, and too many grandchildren to list - and supported the parents through illnesses and death. What is wrong with you?

Actually I am more angry than sad at this. If you wish to argue with me about it, take it to the PMs. If you have something intelligent to say, say it here and be ready to defend it when there is intelligent disagreement. In my opinion, this is the most meanspirited, disgraceful display I have ever witnessed on Mudcat.

Rant over.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST,FluffyMewoington
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 05:47 PM

Meow


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Big Mick
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 05:51 PM

I would suggest, my brother, that you trust the intelligence of the folks that inhabit these precincts. They are quite capable of distinguishing which posts come from people who are either naieve, or idiotic.

I have always had great respect for you, and still do. I just think it was a mistaken judgement to sic your friends on this forum by saying "Have a riot - I should have given you, ipscone, this a long time ago. Oh well - never too late"

Let's get by this.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 05:57 PM

Norton1, maybe you need to take a breath, making fun of his screen name isn't doing anything but giving him a reason to laugh at you.

You called my comments "puky" I have no serious response to that. I understand that you may be upset but you are talking like a 12 year old. Do you want to talk or pick fights?

For what its worth I pray that your daughter and her comrades come home safely to a warm welcome. I pray that corporal Josh comes home safely and can forgive his countrymen. I pray that the war is quick and that the outcome is much better than I expect it to be.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Big Mick
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 06:00 PM

And to my beloved jarhead (said with a Navy Vet smirk on my face) friends, I would suggest that you not trifle with Mary (SINSULL). She will whip your arse and send you back to the chow line.......hahahaha. I am scared to death of her.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: SINSULL
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 06:19 PM

Stop sucking up, Mick. Where's the ring????


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 06:19 PM

My uncle was a Marine during WWII. He was a scholar and a gentleman. Those guests who have come in here and personally attacked Mudcat members sully the reputations of Marines and are not worthy of being in the same league as my uncle and the others with whom he served.

Why don't you all take it back to the schoolyard or grow up?!


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 06:23 PM

Steve, I don't make my living as a mental health professional as you do. But I do have enough training in mental health, experience in clinical settings, and experience with the kinds of problems that many Vietnam Veterans experience, to recognise someone who needs help.

You have not lost my respect. But I am worried about you. I hope you will get some help soon. You want to be in good shape when your daughter gets home. She's going to need you to be there for her.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 06:27 PM

My father fought in three different wars, in three different armies, and he was the most independent minded man I ewver knew. I'd have pitied anyone who ever tried to indoctrinate him.

And I can't imagine him having much respect for some of the visitors we've had recently.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 06:41 PM

Steve: I have always enjoyed your input (I believe we originally signed in at about the same time) and I regret that you were exposed to ignorance (surprise! ignorance on the internet?!) at a time like this.

Big Mick: wow. . .

Jarheads: Jarheads.

Dan
Coronado, CA


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST,Marinefromhell
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 06:44 PM

We're here! we're gonna stay! we're gonna rag yer azzes!
Don't like it?!?
Want me to leave?
Make me wussyboys--LOL

Oh btw, thanks for posting on the MODF Lupussy hexx, we can trace your IP addy an all that good stuff--see we got lot's O' military type 'toys' that assist with scopin' out "stuff"

See Ya'---you're too easy--LOL


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 06:48 PM

Yes, Steve, as Carol says: What the hell did that guy give as a reason for needing your first edition, first printing and why in the hell did you believe him? Idiot.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST,Marinefromhell
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 06:59 PM

btw, all you frenching, liberal, genius types.
Ask your ignorant friend lupussy to post the sh1tty email he sent to Norton1.
Then talk to us about Honor, Courage, Committment.
Go ahead and try to defend that with a frenching protest sign.

Yes-we like to fight.

Too bad ya'll have no nads for it--go sing kum bay ya to yourselves.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: artbrooks
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 07:11 PM

I like Marines. I remember visiting the Marine headquarters at Da Nang...hot showers, cold beer and air conditioning. A great deal.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 07:25 PM

Forgive the potty mouth loonies. The little guys can't help it. See, in horseracing, as a race comes up you start making the horses 'hotter' meaning you start shoveling in the oats. (You do just the opposite after the racing season- you cut the oats. So there is hope for these people too.) It makes the horse rather wild and hard to handle but it gives him a mean spirit and lots of energy.)

Obviously, the military does the same thing to its recruits. Men, of course, don't require the pumping.

I wonder how it feels to know that you're being force fed?


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: SINSULL
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 07:29 PM

Kumbaya???? Now that IS a low blow! I went to your site, MFH, and read Lepus' email. I believe that the man is mentally ill. No one here is defending his position, at least as far as I can tell.

If you had read through this thread and others, you would know that.

I admit I have no nads. Being female, I refuse to apologize for it. I do however have NADS. And if you are going to stay, you may want to check out the postings of a certain catspaw who will provide more than you ever wanted to know about them.

Be forewarned. Spaw was a conscientious objector in the Viet Nam War and spent time in jail rather than flee to Canada. He is a man of principle as well as rather rude sense of humor.

I do have a question for you and I hope you will answer it seriously and with some thought. Marines go to war to defend the rights of Americans. One of those rights is free speech. How do you resolve the quandary of having that right used to protest the very war you are fighting? And can you at least see (not agree) that people using that right of free speech to object to what they perceive as illegal acts by their own government are patriotic?

I am liberal but hardly a genius. And though I know I am going to regret this - I honestly don't know what "frenching" means. Maybe I am; maybe I'm not.

A serious response will no doubt produce more dialogue. More name-calling and I am out of here.
SINS


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST,BUZZBAG
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 07:42 PM

Being a former Marine may I ask all of you that are against our taking Saddam out a question? Yes? Thank you.

Is Saddam a good leader and carer of his people? Has he committed atrocities? How about when he gassed the women and children of the Kurd ethnicity? Around 5,000 if I remember correctly. I guess if it doesn't affect you it is perfectly OK.

After reading this thread I believe some of you think if we ignore these kind of people, they will just go away. Neville Chamberlain thought so.

So let us see how all this plays out. I think some if not most of you will be suprised.

But you Lepus Rex. You beat it all. I have known people like you and all you want is a good time at others expense.

I will not lower my self to your level because if I did only one would walk away. And believe me I would give it my best shot. Unlike you who wants everthing without having earned it.

Last but not least, your picture scared the hell out of me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 07:42 PM

Norton1, it wasn't an "email" I sent you. It was a copy of a post that was deleted by Joe. Go ahead and send it around---I still stand by it, and have repeated most of it since. But it was deleted as a personal attack, so I will do as Joe asked, and not re-post it.

The really sad thing is that for all your whining that were "persona non grata" and that you've recieved no "respect for (your) views," you were getting lots of support from, well, pretty much everyone but me. And by inviting your gang of washed-up jarheads to come and "vent their rage," you've stabbed all of those supporters in the back. And you continue to inflame them on your fascist forum, encouraging them to declare "war" on the Mudcat. This isn't harming me a bit---trust me, none of you are mentally capable of hurting my feelings, making me angry, or annoying me. Like JtS said, I'm only laughing at you. What you are damaging is this forum, and I hope that wasn't your intention, Norton1.

---Lepus Rex


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Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST,I always defer to the ladies
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 08:03 PM

I will check my fire SINSULL. For your consumption only, "frenching" is our substitute for the other "F" word...get it?

Lepus-we've been called worse things. So what!

We care for our own--you jump one Marine, 176,000 Marines will bring to bear on you.

Sure nothing harms you, you are nothing.

Get a clue doboy

Semper Fidelis
I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to put an end to this discussion. Mudcat is a folk music forum. We tolerate civil discussions of other things that may be of interest to folk musicians. We invite everybody who has an interest in music to join our community, but we do not invite outsiders to come in just to gang up against opinions they disagree with. That's just not fair.
No, we don't care to have a flame war going on here. Take it somewhere else.
Thank you.
-Joe Offer, Army Vet and son of a WWII Marine-


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This Thread Is Closed.


Mudcat time: 29 September 5:23 PM EDT

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