BS: Another Comment from the Front Lines

Subject: BS: Another Comment from the Front Lines
From: Charley Noble
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 09:00 AM

This belongs in the "war is hell" category, the raw violence that inevitably happens in any war and a causal comment that only highlights what will become a flashback for many years:

"But some of the raw violence of war is beginning to creep into coverage in ways that the Pentagon would rather not see, he said (an unidentified defence official). In Saturday's New York Times, for instance, a Marine sharpshooter described opening fire on an Iraqi soldier standing among civilians and watching a woman fall. 'I'm sorry,' the sergeant was quoted saying, 'But the chick was in the way.'"

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Another Comment from the Front Lines
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 09:56 AM

"Sharpshooter"???

Subject: RE: BS: Another Comment from the Front Lines
From: katlaughing
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 11:20 AM

Sickening

Subject: RE: BS: Another Comment from the Front Lines
From: Greg F.
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 11:28 AM

The few, the proud, the brave. Go marines.

Subject: RE: BS: Another Comment from the Front Lines
From: Peg
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 11:44 AM

more and more, watching the US fight this war, I feel a need to vomit.
I guess this is dumb question but why aren't people in the military screened before they enter combat to make sure they ahve some fucking semblance of human compassion?
Yeah, like I said, dumb question.

Subject: RE: BS: Another Comment from the Front Lines
From: katlaughing
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 11:50 AM

I suspect part of it is when one is expected to be a killing machine, compassion has to be subjugated.

Michael Crichton wrote in his book about medical school that in order to work with the cadavers and not get bogged down in maudlin feelings about the mostly old people they dissected and studied, they became quite callous, tossing around organs in impromptu, in the lab, football gmaes, etc. He said that was their way of dealing with the horrors of what they were doing. To an outsider it would seem completely sickening, but he said if they hadn't treated it that way AND with humour, they could never have made it through, mentally, physically and emotionally.

I am not condoning any of it, in war or school, just offering it as some possible insight.

Subject: RE: BS: Another Comment from the Front Lines
From: Peg
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 11:56 AM

good point kat, but the problem with that approach is that supposedly the military is supposed to be HELPING the people whose country they have invaded...especially women and children. This "chick" remark is reprehensible, much more so that an accidental casualty would be if the soldier acknowledged his error and made some show of regret.

Subject: RE: BS: Another Comment from the Front Lines
From: Gareth
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 12:39 PM

Amazing - Not a word of criticism of the Iraqui forces using a civilian woman for cover.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Another Comment from the Front Lines
From: katlaughing
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 01:18 PM

We are supposed to be better than that, Gareth, thus higher standards and expectations of our guys...no comparison!

Yes, Peg, I agree.

Subject: RE: BS: Another Comment from the Front Lines
From: Amos
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 01:27 PM

I suspect, Gareth, that many of these sentiments are based on a complete lack of understanding of what war means. Never mind that it is the most gruesome situation a human can be in. When one is in it, civvy street veneers and noble sentiments get displaced by the law of the jungle. Asking people to do that is bad enough. Asking them to do it and then peppering them with civilian standards of nicety is just plain unreal.

I was talking to a friend who explained something to me about the discrimination between civilian and military individuals in a field like Iraq, when they go covert/guerilla, and become indistinguishable from the civilians. In Vietnam, he said, he learned to be less discriminating the day he saw an 8 year old girl roll a grenade into a buddy's tent and run away, killing the tent's occupant. He learned that the extra thirty seconds spent on wondering about civilian versus combatant could be the difference between living, yourself, and ending up fragged into smithereens like his buddy in the tent.

Now -- horror stories are plentiful and the trials of combat are so gruesome I cannot think about them without feeling like vomiting myself. I am not proposing that we should all start thinking like ruthless warriors. But I do think we should reflect somewhat on what it means to be in in a minute-to-minute life-and-death live-fire situation. It is unrealistic to pass moral judgements around without a strong sense of the reality you would be immersed in if you were walking in his combat boots, ducking grenades and watching the enemies fire mortars on their own people as has occurred several times in the last 72 hours at the exits from Basra.



A

Subject: RE: BS: Another Comment from the Front Lines
From: Gareth
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 01:56 PM

Amos I endorse and concur with every word of your post.

What anoys me is the element, probably a vocal but minority element, which must find fault in what ever thier own counties do.

I doubt if any soldier enjoys killing, but in the pressure of warfare, these things have always happened, and regretably always will.

As I said before Not one word in this thread critizizig the Iraquis for using thier own civilians as cover.

If they had not done so the tradedy would not have happened.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Another Comment from the Front Lines
From: harpgirl
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 02:15 PM

I keep thinking that if the f'ing government doesn't want us to "see" war they shouldn't be waging it.

Yes, we have an increased technological ability to bring it up close and that makes it more real for everyone.

Those who try to censor what we see, hear, and feel are either ashamed or worried that they will lose support for their war. What other reason could they have for not wanting graphic reporting? I don't need Donald Rumsfeld to protect me from the truth, I can see what he is all about every time he goes on television. I despise the man.

Subject: RE: BS: Another Comment from the Front Lines
From: katlaughing
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 02:30 PM

As I said, I'd hope that we had progressed to the point we could expect better from our soldiers. THAT is why I would point a finger at our own, esp. when compared with the track records of Iraq. Not very nice, I know, to say that's what is normal and expected in Iraq, BUT it is NOT what one would expect of our people.

Of course, if we want to look back into our history or that of Europe, we can find all kinds of depravities carried out during wars and campaigns of expansion, i.e. skinning the breast of Native American women to make pouches of them, or men's testicles.

That also illustrates my point...I expect better from our troops and so would be more critical as they represent us to the rest of the world by their actions.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Another Comment from the Front Lines
From: Big Mick
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 02:45 PM

Yes, I agree with that sentiment kat, it is why I went four star, through the roof ballistic when there was discussion of sanctioned torture by our soldiers. It is, supposedly, not our way. Of course, those who have been to war know that is not so, but it is not sanctioned, nor a policy. In fact, one could have been prosecuted for it.

BUT.........and it is a significant but............Gareth makes an excellent point, and it is one I have referred to. The anti war folks are no where to be found unless it is US involvement. They are against this war (I am too, btw), but they never staged the first demonstration against Saddam's brutal campaign, torture, executions, and ignoring of UN resolutions. I never heard France make the first comment about that. And I have yet to hear any of those who post here say directly that they despise the tactics the Iraqui's are using. They are not condemning the use of human shield, forcing women and children down the streets and hiding behind them thinking that the Americans won't fire so the Iraqui can kill the Yank, hiding tanks in hospitals, etc. It is why I view most of the posters regarding this subject with a great deal of cynicism. It seems to me that their activism and outrage are a thing of convenience and groupthink, and a product of "let's point out what is wrong with the USA" kind of mentality.

I hate this war, and the reasons we went into it. I hate war, as only one who has been to it can, and my views are well chronicled on this forum. I find the current "follow the leader" attitude among the pro war folks, and the anti war folks, to be equally distressing. It is no wonder we have trouble getting support in the world.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Another Comment from the Front Lines
From: Amos
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 03:01 PM

Mick:

The awesome brutalities on the side of Hussein and his loyal followers are legion, and in fact are the only reason I believe we should successfully complete the war we have begun and are now in up to our necks. I hate having a war, I hated to see it started, I think it was badly, badly handled. But I also think there is some good to be accomplished in uprooting the disastrous tyranny we are currently fighting, and I think we would be much worse off stopping now, even though I wish we could somehow erase the whole awful mess. But we are deep in the middle of a war. We could back away and betray those who have some hope of living without Saddam's tyranny on their necks. But for long term consequences, I am sorry to say, we would probably be worse off doing so than following through.

I am -- as you can probably tell -- deeply torn by the whole sorry mess. I can't really tell if I am being extremely naive to think that there might be some light at the end of the tunnel, or whether I would be incredibly naive to argue on behalf of immediuate withdrawal. Obviously, it is too late to protest the start of a war at this time.

My opinion, of course, weighs less than nothing, and I don't think I will voice it again.   I'd be interested, as always, to hear yours.

Thanks for your words,


A

Subject: RE: BS: Another Comment from the Front Lines
From: katlaughing
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 03:21 PM

I don't have time to look, right now, Mick, but I am sure I've seen some comments here abhoring the brutalities of Saddam and his reign. Maybe I am just being hopeful. Maybe part of the reason folks are talking more about the US is because they feel that is something they can something about, something they have more control over changing? I don't know.

I do know the shrub started out saying he was going over there because of the WMD, then it progressed to getting Saddam, then his regime and now it is to liberate the people. I don't remember any mention of that until we actually got into the war and the daily rhetoric has been changing with the wind, it seems. I am NOT saying it is not a good thing to help the people to be free of someone like Saddam, just that our government needs to be very clear about what it is doing and why. As to liberating...there seem to be very mixed reports on that and the Iraqi people, too.

Thanks,

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Another Comment from the Front Lines
From: GUEST,Norton1
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 03:22 PM

What Gareth said - times two for me. And the comment is rendered here without any thought to the tone, the mood of the speaker, the incident, nothing - just a sentence. How about a young 20 year old trying to protect his buddies and takes a shot at a combatant surrounded by women and kids. And a woman falls. And out of sadness and regret he says in a very sad apologetic voice - "The chick got in the way." Because his words didn't set right with you all you are going to condemn him?

Sorry folks - I'm not buying it. Been there done that and American troops are not trained to be this way. And I highly doubt this young man was either. What does the Good Book say? Ye without sin may cast the first stone?

Sure glad the Iraqi regime has such a clean bill of health.


Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Another Comment from the Front Lines
From: artbrooks
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 03:39 PM

Could someone direct me to the article or, better yet, to an objective report of the incident? I'd prefer not to comment on one sentence taken out of an article that may or may not be accurate or in context.

Subject: RE: BS: Another Comment from the Front Lines
From: Troll
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 03:43 PM

I agree with you Steve. And Mick and Amos make good points.
The more I see of the "anti" movement in this country, the more I am convinced that it is not anti-war or anti-America but simply anti-Bush. And in all the coverage of the protests that I have seen, I have never seen an anti-Saddam sign. And, Yes, I have looked.
I have a strong feeling that if anyone did show up with such a sign, he/she would be put in the same category as those who support the war. It's almost as if Saddam isn't really a part of the equation in the "antis" minds.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Another Comment from the Front Lines
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 04:36 PM

Norton, Gareth, Big Mick, if you've not heard most of the world condemning Saddam for many years - including many protests in the UK and France against building him up in the Iraq-Iran war - maybe you need to look beyond Fox news. The French government has frequently criticised Saddam since the gulf war. So have most people here at Mudcat.

He's despicable. Of course he is. But any time we forget to say so, or just take it for granted, assuming that most people know that by now, it's desperately seized on as a basis for denying our right to condemn our own governments for what are obviously lesser failings. Do we have to be that precious about our own governments. Jesus Christ, I hope we don't have to wait till they're worse than Saddam before we can criticise.

Peg, re the military mindset. When the N Koreans turn their troops into heartless killing machines it's called brainwashing. When the present invading armies do it it's called training. (You know, where they have to go shrieking mad stabbing sacks with bayonets, just so they won't bat an eyelid when they slice the guts out of real human beings.)

Robin Cook was right before he retracted: get the troops home before any more are lost (and before they kill any more of each other, and before they kill any more innocent civilians).

Subject: RE: BS: Another Comment from the Front Lines
From: Troll
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 04:40 PM

Right on Fionn. Lets bring 'em all home and leave Saddam in charge to go his merry way. At least YOUR hands won't be dirty.

troll ***BTW Fox news was not in existance during Iraq-Iran.***

Subject: RE: BS: Another Comment from the Front Lines
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 04:44 PM

I don't speak out condemning Saddam because he's already damned in everyone's eyes. Saying "Saddam is a horribly sadistic tyrant" doesn't persuade anyone of anything they don't already know. If someone had raised doubts about Saddam's evil, I would have spoken about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Another Comment from the Front Lines
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 05:00 PM

I'd like to note that the Russians in World War II used every sort of brutal and ruthless and underhanded tactic in fighting the Germans who were invading and occupying their country. They fought them in uniform. They fought them out of uniform. They fought them by every ruse and trick possible, in order to kill as many Germans as they could. They did suicide rammings of German aircraft with their own planes. They violated the "rules of war" on many occasions to beat the Nazis.

People do not criticize the Russians for having done this while defending their own homeland against a foreign invader. People praise them for it! They do not criticize the French resistance for having done this. They do not criticize the Greek resistance for having done this.

So why are they criticizing Iraquis for doing this?

Huge aggressors with overwhelming advantages in firepower should not hide behind a figlead of supposed moral decency while committing such aggression against the people they're invading and occupying.

You see, it's subjective. Your opinion is not truly based on what you think is "right", but on whom you think is right. For Heinz Guderian, the Nazis were right. History doesn't agree with Heinz now, and it's not going to agree with America and Britain either.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Another Comment from the Front Lines
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 05:00 PM

I've heard the "where are the anti-Saddam signs at peace rallies" line many times over the last months, and from many sources. Here's my reply:

There are some. I've seen 'em. There aren't more, because everyone, on both (or all) sides of the issue agree that Saddam is a despicable despot who inflicts great cruelty on the Iraqi people. If a protestor (of any ilk) were carrying a sign stating this, against whom or what would they be protesting? Does anyone out there require convincing of Saddam's repugnance? I sure don't. Expecting peace activists to carry anti-Saddam signs is a bit like expecting war supporters to carry signs saying "Please Limit Collateral Damage". They're not carrying them because it's understood...we all agree on that, so it's not the point.

I do believe that intelligent, thoughtful patriots of good conscience can disagree as to the best means of aiding the Iraqi people, and lessening the worldwide threat posed by Saddam and other beasts. Those who believe that the current invasion of Iraq does not match those goals, nor the founding principles of the USA (can't speak for the British) certainly have the right (and many feel the obligation) to protest to their own government about its actions. Saddam does not face re-election by U.S. or British citizens, but Bush and Blair do, so of course they will be the object of protests - not Saddam.

In summary 1) we all agree that Saddam is a cruel Ahole, 2) our own elected leaders are the sensible object of our protests.

Finally, I know of many protestors who have spent their lives working for humanitarion causes all over the globe (including Iraq) - which is far more of a commitment than carrying a superfluous anti-Saddam sign on US (or British, or French, or...) soil.

I support the troops. I understand that they must do whatever they must do to come home alive and intact from situations I have not seen in my nightmares. I will pressure our leaders to bring them home before more tragedy befalls them and the rest of the world.

(steps down from the box...)

Subject: RE: BS: Another Comment from the Front Lines
From: Ireland
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 05:08 PM

What are the thoughts on the comments made by the British troops who say that the US military have little rehard for civilians. That is the A 10 pilot still attacked them when civilians were close enough to be injured.

Opinions from the British troops are that US troops are cracking a nut with a sledgehammer, thus making the winning of the Iraqi civilians over that much harder.

Not trying to be offensive, just pointing out that those who are fighting in Iraq have some reservations about their allies tactic's and attitude.

Subject: RE: BS: Another Comment from the Front Lines
From: artbrooks
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 05:13 PM

And the link to that quote is where, please?

Subject: RE: BS: Another Comment from the Front Lines
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 05:22 PM

Art: It's all over the news. Go to google news and plug in cowboy pilot. (Just the facts, no opinion express or implied herein.)

Subject: RE: BS: Another Comment from the Front Lines
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 05:25 PM

Of course none of us knows the exact circumstances with the sharpshooter's hitting the wrong person, but I should point out that that the transit of a fired bullet is far from instantaneous, and if the sharpshooter was a long distance away (that's relative, of course), there would be a time gap from the time the bullet left the muzzle and the time it arrived on target. The bystander may well have moved into the path of what was a well-aimed bullet.

"The chick was in the way" may sound callous at first hearing, but it may not mean, in effect, "I had to shoot through her to get at my target", but "When the bullet got there she was in the way."

There's also the possibility that a gust of wind deflected the bullet enough to hit the bystander.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Another Comment from the Front Lines
From: Barry Finn
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 05:38 PM

The Vikings (heard this on NPR) had a seperate vocabulary for war/battle terms. "Berzerker" is a term for a soldier/warrior who's been in battles far longer than they should've been. Their behavior towards whom ever was their path way beyond that of rational humans. Some what like we're seeing today & somewhat like we saw in Viet Nam. The ear was considered a trophy by us back then. One of my high school friends came home from that war & told me when he was in a helicopter & a few of the soldiers we're questioning prisoners. When they couldn't get the answers they wanted they threw one out & after the 2nd was done talking he followed the 1st. A 2nd story he told me of how 3 soldiers he was with attempted to rape a woman & would've succeded except Peter pull a side arm he told them that if one of them put a hand on her he'd kill all 3 were they stood. He never got over what he saw & did, killed himselve within the 1st yr home. War is
unnatural & brings with it unnatural actions from those that have been around it just a bit to long, no mater if God's on their side or not. The amazing thing is that the Vikings were able to document this type of war behavior & centuries latter all we can do is point fingers at each other & ask ourseves how & why these kind of actions can happen. Sad. War crimes BS, war is the crime. Not only should the soldier be held responsible but so should those who send these kids to die knowing full well if they live what they'll become capable of both on the battlefield & on the street when they come home. This kind of behavior has been since wars began, it's only now that those who weren't there get to see it up close in your face.   Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Another Comment from the Front Lines
From: Peter T.
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 05:38 PM

Sorry to say, Mick, you are wrong. The first demonstration I attended against Saddam Hussein's regime was in 1993, followed by a number of international conferences, petitions, and reports on the dire treatment of Kurds, Shi'ite Marsh Arabs and others, including the holding hostage of Iraqi children by their own regime during the negotiations over oil-for-food (one of which I helped write and sent, with a letter of protest, to the Iraqi government). The regime -- along with the sanctions imposed by the United Nations -- has been castigated over and over again by the international anti-war movement. It may be (though I have no information) that there was little activity in the United States, but that would not surprise me. Read the reports by UNICEF, Medecins Sans Frontiers, Canadian representatives to the World Health Organization -- all those international swine.

yours, Peter

Subject: RE: BS: Another Comment from the Front Lines
From: TIA
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 05:47 PM

Oops, I was the guest at 5:00PM. Cookie slippage.

Subject: RE: BS: Another Comment from the Front Lines
From: Charley Noble
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 05:54 PM

Art-

In my initial post it's mentioned that the quote was taken from the New York Times, Saturday, 3/29/03. I haven't read the full article, only what was excepted by my Portland Press Herald this morning.

And for others above-

I'm not surprised that this incident happened, or several hundred other ones inflicted on civilians by remote control rather than a "sharpshooter." This is WAR and this is what happens in WAR. I don't like it and it makes me sick that we were unable to stop it, and I'm sure that worse things will happen as this war continues. And I'm sure that more American and British soldiers will die as the Iraqi leadership gets more desparate, and like our founding fathers the Iraqi are unlikely to play by the rules.

With regard to the "soldier" who was quoted, I'm less convinced that he was callous then I am that he said something defensive, a derisive comment, which loosely translated meant "Shit, I shot some woman instead of the soldier." I'm still sure he'll be haunted by this scene for the rest of his life; she won't even have that prospect.

Yah, I should also add something about how the Iraqi leadership has brutalized large segments of their population, invaded their neighbors, and refused to comply completely with UN mandates for over 10 years. That being said, I still do not think we had the right to invade Iraq to replace their government without UN authorization. And by going ahead with the invasion anyway, we have jeopardized the UN itself and our own moral standing in the world community.

I have the utmost respect for the small number of diplomats who have publically resigned in disgust with what the Bush Administration has done.

I do not expect our troops to come home before the Iraqi government is replaced, be it weeks or months. I hope they come back with minimal looses. But I do expect that when they leave, they'll leave one sorry unholy mess. And the fact that it will be a different mess isn't a whole lot of comfort.

Not having a nice day,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Another Comment from the Front Lines
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 05:56 PM

We haven't seen anything yet which will compare to the brutality of this war when it is being fought block by block in Baghdad.

I have made this point over and over on various threads over the last few months but this reality is about to come into play. Given the US superiority of fire power and it's techincal advantages, this is the only war that Iraq can fight that offers any chance of success for defense.

Saddam's son announced months ago that they weren't going to put their entire army out in the middle of the dessert to to be wiped out in matter of hours. These are not stupid people.

Many of us have argued that the cost oin civilian lives was agood enough excuse to allow the conflict to play out through diplomacic channels but Bush was too eager to further the Perle/Wolfowitz/Cheney/Rumsfeld Plan and short circuited the dipolomatic efforts.

So, now we are expected to place *all* the blame at the feet of the Iraqis? Hey, they are doing what the US would do if the tables were turned. They are playing to hteir strengths and the US's weaknesses. That is war.

And, yeah, it sucks!

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Another Comment from the Front Lines
From: Peter T.
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 05:57 PM

It is also of course worth saying that the United States and the United Nations generally bear great responsibility for the sanctions programme and its continuation. Evidence for that comes from the number of respected senior UN people associated with the programme, managers of the Food Programmes in Iraq, all the way up to Assistant Secretaries General, who resigned in disgust at the way the sanctions were being used.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Another Comment from the Front Lines
From: Amos
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 06:49 PM

Peter:

How easy would it have been for the Iraqi government to address the terms of those sanctions and get them lifted?

A

Subject: RE: BS: Another Comment from the Front Lines
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 07:07 AM

Bobert,

"We haven't seen anything yet which will compare to the brutality of this war when it is being fought block by block in Baghdad."

That still very much remains to be seen.

"Given the US superiority of fire power and it's techincal advantages, this is the only war that Iraq can fight that offers any chance of success for defense."

They have absolutely no chance of success for defence Bobert - No chance at all.

"Saddam's son announced months ago that they weren't going to put their entire army out in the middle of the dessert to to be wiped out in matter of hours. These are not stupid people."

Quite right Bobert, they are not stupid people - everybody knows you can't put an entire army in the middle of a bowl of custard.

"So, now we are expected to place *all* the blame at the feet of the Iraqis?"

Don't know so much about the Iraqi's - but I can put up a pretty good case for placing entire responsibility at the door of Saddam Hussein and the Iraqi Ba'athist Regime, considering the options that have been open to them since the cease-fire agreed to at the end of "Desert Storm".

"Hey, they are doing what the US would do if the tables were turned."

I rather imagine that the US would be doing it a bit more effectively. I also note that all those who have castigated the US and UK regarding lack of observance of the Articles of the UN Charter that not one of you are calling Saddam and the Ba'athists to task for the same reason - Bobert actually seems to applaud them for it.

"They are playing to hteir strengths and the US's weaknesses. That is war."

Not much sign of either Iraqi strength or US weakness to date Bobert - early days yet granted, but the US & UK forces engaged seem to be on the shorter learning curve.

Subject: RE: BS: Another Comment from the Front Lines
From: Peter T.
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 08:54 AM

The Iraqi government (with some snafus and some trickling of corruption into the usual pockets) adhered to the sanctions regime. Nothing was going to lift the sanctions but the "spontaneous arising of the people to overthrow Saddam" (like the flowers currently garlanding the Americans on their march to Baghdad by a grateful people).

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Another Comment from the Front Lines
From: Gareth
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 11:39 AM

Peter T

This is planet earth

"The Iraqi government (with some snafus and some trickling of corruption into the usual pockets) adhered to the sanctions regime"

Ehat planet are you on ?

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Another Comment from the Front Lines
From: Amos
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 12:34 PM

GAreth:

Explain yourself?


A

Subject: RE: BS: Another Comment from the Front Lines
From: Peter T.
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 01:01 PM

There is lots of evidence to support my points, but you might simply read the following HERE. Halliday and Von Sponeck are both reasonable people, with no real ax to grind. yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Another Comment from the Front Lines
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 02:14 PM

"Sickening," Kat? These are the troops you support, right? That woman was shot with your gun.

There were more interesting Sgt.Schrumpf quotes in that story:

"We dropped a few civilians," Sergeant Schrumpf said, "but what do you do?"

"We had a great day," Sergeant Schrumpf said. "We killed a lot of people."

You can read a copy of the story here, or at it's source, the NYT (but you'll have to log in).

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Another Comment from the Front Lines
From: artbrooks
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 02:43 PM

And then there is this from the same article:

Both marines said they were most frustrated by the practice of some Iraqi soldiers to use unarmed women and children as shields against American bullets. They called the tactic cowardly but agreed that it had been effective. Both Sergeant Schrumpf and Corporal McIntosh said they had declined several times to shoot at Iraqi soldiers out of fear they might hit civilians.

Subject: RE: BS: Another Comment from the Front Lines
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 09:45 PM

Lepus, not mygun and not my support.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Another Comment from the Front Lines
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 10:10 PM

Yo, T-ster;

Having fun?

I'm not.

You love doing your little point-counterpoint thingie. Problem is that your vision is just that of what is in front of your face.

When months ago I was talking about urban warfare you posted long, long treaties on how that would never happen. Now we are looking at, ahhhh, urban warfare. Or are we not, T? This is true/false, yes/no and not your doctorial thesis. Just yes/no.....

Okay, with that established, lets get on to your other point that I "appluad" the standsw that the Iraqis have made. Wrong. I detest your guys hyjacking diplomacy. I detest your guys view of a world where the US just goes and kills off folks for their resources. I believe that is called robbery. I detest a forieng policy centered around beating the carp out of your neighbor. I detest a system that has its workers so controlled that all they got to drag out is a few worn out PR phrases and these folks fall into line line zombies. I detest the simple fact that the Bush administration has made out planet a very dangerous place to live.

This isn't about WMD. It's not about regime cahnge. It's not about Saddam. It's about Paul Wolfowitz and Richard Perl'es vision of a "New World Order" where the US and Isreal just, ahhh, dictate, dictate and dictate....

You can deny it, T-Bird, but when you go to sleep at night, you know that it's true.

But keep fighting. I wouldn't expect anything less...

Bobery

Subject: RE: BS: Another Comment from the Front Lines
From: Amos
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 12:00 AM

(Note that Bobert's comments to "T" are addressed to Teribus, not to Peter T.)


A

Subject: RE: BS: Another Comment from the Front Lines
From: Barry Finn
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 12:19 AM

I'm right there with ya Kat, it's not my support & it's not my gun & it's not in my name.

Hey Mick, how are you these days, gotta bring you back east again where we can get you healthy & back in focus. I for one have never stood by, not during the attempted take over of Viet Nam not while my brother was there snaking his way through Cambodia & Laos with the Citizens In Action (what is it that attractive to us in that part of the world? Is the grass greener, I don't think so?). I marched with my father during that one (he was a receiptent of the purple heart for coming back to life while in the S Pacific). Not while we mined the harbors of Nicaragua, another place where we snaked through (and another area that we seemed to be a bit keen on) & so on. What Saddam has done there is no excuse for, while we watched & aided there's no excuse there either. So now we've got all these wrongs trying to make a right out of them. My opinion is we really crossed the line this time. We've become a rouge nation & if the UN had the balls they would condemn & sanction US. We are now no better than Iraq when it was the invader. The things that we've done in the name of war are no better than what we're watching unfold now. I do know you hate war but "following the leader" is one of the many problems we're facing today. No matter how bad something or someone is you can't make it right by doing wrong, not even if he's the Pres.

Ok, & another thing, no matter how you feel the door here's always open whenever you're ready. You can't be that busy with the life style you lead (Ha,Ha, old man). See ya soon, love Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Another Comment from the Front Lines
From: DougR
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 01:41 AM

Thank you, Amos, for pointing that out. I REALLY was confused. Bobert was probably even more so!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Another Comment from the Front Lines
From: DougR
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 01:56 AM

Peg: when I was a kid, I found putting my finger down my throat helped me vomit. Just trying to help.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Another Comment from the Front Lines
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 03:07 AM

Bobert,

Your question:

"Now we are looking at, ahhhh, urban warfare. Or are we not." ?

Answer:

"That still very much remains to be seen."

Subject: RE: BS: Another Comment from the Front Lines
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 09:00 AM

Bobert-How exactly did you bring "Isreal" (sic) into the plan for the New AMERICAN Century?

Subject: RE: BS: Another Comment from the Front Lines
From: Charley Noble
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 09:40 AM

I don't see peace demonstrations stopping the current war phase in Iraq, unfortunately, but I would still encourage people who disagree with the Bush Administration's rationale for this war to participate in them, and be proud to do so! Maybe in this way we can curb some of the Administration's more "imperialist" plans for postwar Iraq, help insure that administration of the country be shifted to the UN or at least some broader coalition than the US, the UK, Australia, and an amazing collection of less than major nations (i.e., Ethiopia and Eritria!) that are willing to have their names added to the support roster.

Sure, such protests will raise questions in the minds of our troops in Iraq, and many will be righteously pissed. But they should know that the justification for this war was questioned before war started and continues to be questioned.

Sure, such protests will provide some comfort to what remains of the Iraqi leadership, but pretty cold comfort as their world continues to be blasted apart around them. They should surrender unconditionally but that doesn't seem to be their end-game.

And I don't doubt for a minute that participants of such protests will become increasingly villified in the press, and added to Ascroft's ever-growing list of disloyal citizens and non-citizens.

What do you think, Amos and Mick, am I totally off-base?

Peace,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Another Comment from the Front Lines
From: Troll
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 05:14 PM

By all means, lets have the UN administer things. They've done such a good job in places like Rwanda and Bosnia of protecting peoples lives that it stands to reason that they should now have a go at their rights.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Another Comment from the Front Lines
From: Big Mick
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 06:01 PM

Hey, Barry, I am with you. I need some time back in God's country. But unfortunately I am mired in some things right now, at work, that have life altering consequences. I will tell you more as it transpires. Not only that, but I am organizing a packing/slaughterhouse and things tend to get a little exciting when one is working with folks that carry knives. The supporters are great, but the ones who want you to disappear can have a radical view of how to accomplish that. They haven't got me in 27 years, but I want to make sure they don't get me for another 27 or so............hahahahaa.

Barry, I should have been a little clearer. It is my belief that the Vietnam era protesters did, in fact, have the largest role in ending that war. Not solely, but a very large role. And I thank them for it. The object of my post was to challenge the peace activists to examine their noble views a bit. It is not good enough, IMO, to just be against one ingredient of the soup. Despite what my friend Peter T. says, I saw nothing close to the amount of anger that is being expended now, expended on Saddam when he was doing these horrific things. I am with you in the quest for peace, but I ask again, what do we do with a truly evil man like Saddam who doesn't share your values and backs this up with horrible actions and weapons? Even using the most conservative numbers, he gassed several thousand of his own citizens. Every time I ask this question, someone glosses over it and goes back to castigating the US, and the President. I am with you on the castigating him on his lack of prowess in the diplomatic areas, but I ask you...........what would you do to stop the horrid repression of a people? How would you stop this man from killing the children of others? What would you do with a man who would kill you or imprison you for criticising him as you criticise President Bush and Prime Minister Blair here? I am not being flip or argumentative here, I am being sincere.

Charley, I never want the protesters to stop. Don't mistake my post for anything other than a little constructive criticism. I believe that your analysis is a correct one.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Another Comment from the Front Lines
From: SINSULL
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 06:29 PM

I see two pictures in my mind:
One a callous young man who just followed orders and did what soldiers have to do to win a war.
The other, a young soldier shaking his head in disbelief that he killed a woman when he aimed at an armed enemy.

Both of these young men will need our help when they return home if they are ever to resume a "normal" life. The damage to their minds and hearts is in some ways more insidious than the loss of an arm or a leg or an eye. Outside they will look the same; inside ...deep, permanent changes.

Sorry to keep harping on it but once the parades and flag waving are over, we have a moral obligation to care for these people. Actually, I am not sorry. Afterwards we damn well better take care of them and repay them for their sacrifices.

Subject: RE: BS: Another Comment from the Front Lines
From: Big Mick
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 06:32 PM

Amen, Mary, m'love.

Subject: RE: BS: Another Comment from the Front Lines
From: Troll
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 06:39 PM

Mary,Mick, thank you both. We must all work to make it so, that evil not be allowed to flourish and that the wounded not be left to languish as happened all too often with my generation.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Another Comment from the Front Lines
From: SINSULL
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 06:50 PM

There was "Human Interest" story on the radio yesterday. They were interviewing tattooists about what custom tattoos soldiers were requesting. It seems there is a rush on red/white/blue jobs of all types. And one man told of a horrific tattoo he designed and has been printing on Marines. It depicts the Marine eating his own child or wife...his choice. According to him, Saddam Hussein has sent a rumor thru his troops that Marines are the elite forces and qualify by murdering and eating their own young. The tattoos are there to instill terror should a captor be taken or a Marine found dead by the enemy.

The most chilling to me: the single most popular tattoo is called a "Grave Marker". The soldier has his name, Serial #, and Social Security # tattooed on his/her hip so that the body is more likely to be identified. How does a young man or woman find the courage to put themselves in harm's way knowing that they are very likely to die?

If Iraq invaded my country, I would be able to fight with a gun or a knife or a bomb strapped under my coat. I understand that. But I am dumbfounded by the resolve of these young people. And I am deeply saddened at the toll on their psyche.

That said, I repeat that I am against the American invasion of Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: Another Comment from the Front Lines
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 07:07 PM

I've said this before, but I think I'll say it again: I don't know what is to the highest good of all concerned with regard to whether or not we should have waged a first strike war with Iraq. That is what I'm asking for, but as I said before, I'm not omniscient enough to know what that is. So I have not stated that I am either for or against this war in principle. When I have detected lies, disinformation, and questionable motives coming from the US or UK governments, or when I see the US and/or UK governments violating international treaties or internation law, I have tried to point these things out.

If this war is, indeed, the right thing for us to do, the governments of the US and the UK didn't need to lie or mislead the public in order to present their case. They could have, and should have just given it to us straight. That way, I, and many other people would not need to feel so distrustful of the appropriateness of what the US and UK governments are doing. They created this atmosphere of mistrust themselves.

It reminds me of when they started advertising school lunches (at least in the area where I was living at the time). Before then, school lunches were tasty and fairly nutritious. And the kids wanted to buy them. Then they started serving prefabricated, nasty tasting, lunches of dubious nutritive value. School kitchens started having difficulty keeping their operations going because the kids didn't like the stuff they were serving. Then they started advertising the school lunches on the local TV and in other ways. If the school lunches were any good, they wouldn't need to advertise them.

If this war was really for the benefit of anyone other than a bunch of rich power mongers, they wouldn't have to try to mislead us the way they have been in order to convince us that is is a good thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Another Comment from the Front Lines
From: Tinker
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 11:04 AM

Thanks Mary, you captured my thoughts well... It's easy to judge others from a distance and easier still to distance ourselves from the pain...

Mick, rather than thread drift, here is a bit of a song for your new workin' conditions...BG....Meat Cuttin' Blues

Blessings
Tinker

Subject: RE: BS: Another Comment from the Front Lines
From: Gareth
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 01:17 PM

Bit of thread drift - but the comment on Bloodgroup etc tatoos triggered it.

1945 April, and the final collapse of Germany. XXX Corps would take prisoners, disarm them, and search for the tatoos.

Blood group etc ment that they were SS - escorted into the "cage", no tatoo "Go home Fritz" - Obvously a breach of the Geneava convention.

My late father had a story of the approach to Luneburg - a panzerfaust (Bazooka) was fired at the leading tank, it missed, the infantry riding on the back dismounted and found two young teenagers trying to reload. No they wern't shot out of hand, the Sergeant gave them a thrashing with his belt, and sent them home to mother.

Obvouosly Briish brutaltity against inocent civilians. I wonder what any reporter would have made of that.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Another Comment from the Front Lines
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 04:03 PM

"...beating the carp out of your neighbor." Go, Bobert! (Thanks for the smile, Bobert.)

Subject: RE: BS: Another Comment from the Front Lines
From: Charley Noble
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 05:29 PM

I like your father's story, Gareth.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Another Comment from the Front Lines
From: Peter T.
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 06:29 PM

As long as mother wasn't Ilsa Koch (or maybe if she was). yours, Peter T.