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Any students of Latin here?

GUEST,leeneia 31 Mar 03 - 09:39 AM
Nigel Parsons 31 Mar 03 - 09:46 AM
Dani 31 Mar 03 - 09:50 AM
GUEST,leeneia 31 Mar 03 - 09:54 AM
Amos 31 Mar 03 - 10:06 AM
greg stephens 31 Mar 03 - 10:09 AM
Catarina 31 Mar 03 - 10:12 AM
DMcG 31 Mar 03 - 10:13 AM
Catarina 31 Mar 03 - 10:15 AM
Padre 31 Mar 03 - 10:17 AM
Dave Bryant 31 Mar 03 - 10:25 AM
Dave Bryant 31 Mar 03 - 10:28 AM
McGrath of Harlow 31 Mar 03 - 10:31 AM
Dani 31 Mar 03 - 10:44 AM
Steve Parkes 31 Mar 03 - 10:54 AM
GUEST,Bill Kennedy 31 Mar 03 - 01:20 PM
GUEST,Bill Kennedy 31 Mar 03 - 01:25 PM
Ulysses 1874 31 Mar 03 - 03:14 PM
GUEST,leeneia 31 Mar 03 - 10:38 PM
Steve Parkes 01 Apr 03 - 02:22 AM
greg stephens 01 Apr 03 - 05:39 AM
GUEST,Redhorse at work 01 Apr 03 - 07:21 AM
dermod in salisbury 01 Apr 03 - 09:35 AM
GUEST,leeneia 01 Apr 03 - 10:00 AM
GUEST,Bill Kennedy 01 Apr 03 - 12:50 PM
Amos 01 Apr 03 - 03:08 PM
David Ingerson 01 Apr 03 - 08:54 PM
Steve Parkes 02 Apr 03 - 02:14 AM
GUEST,chorusstudent33 19 Dec 09 - 07:32 PM
GUEST,999 19 Dec 09 - 07:43 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 19 Dec 09 - 08:09 PM
Steve Shaw 19 Dec 09 - 08:27 PM
GUEST 04 May 10 - 10:16 PM
GUEST,leeneia 05 May 10 - 12:00 PM
Highlandman 05 May 10 - 02:13 PM
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Subject: Any students of Latin here?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 09:39 AM

In two weeks we are going to sing a Mozart piece with words in Latin for a church concert. We would like to know what the words mean. Some are obvious, but I will quote the entire thing.

Ave, ave verum corpus, Deus ex Maria Virgine.
Vere passum, immolatum in cruce pro homine.
Cujus latus perforatum, fluxit aqua et sanguine.
Esto nobis praegustatum mortis in examine.

Hard to believe that a bunch of Catholics, even the priest, can't come up with a translation, eh what?

Thanks.


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Subject: RE: Any students of Latin here?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 09:46 AM

My translation skills are no good, but I recognise the phrases, from a book of C16th anthems. My memory of the first line differs.
"Ave verum corpus, natum dei Maria virgine"
Could be a different version, but just my 2p's worth

Nigel


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Subject: RE: Any students of Latin here?
From: Dani
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 09:50 AM

I could butcher it some, but wait for Joe Offer to come around. He'll do a much better job.

Doesn't sound like the happy verse, though...

Dani


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Subject: RE: Any students of Latin here?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 09:54 AM

No,it's not happy. However, our spring concerts start sad and move to joyous every year.


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Subject: RE: Any students of Latin here?
From: Amos
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 10:06 AM

PM to Deda -- she's a professional Classics instructor ands wioll make short work of it.

A


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Subject: RE: Any students of Latin here?
From: greg stephens
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 10:09 AM

Well the last line obviously means "and we predigest corpses in the examination". Can't do the rest.


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Subject: RE: Any students of Latin here?
From: Catarina
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 10:12 AM

Well, I did study Latin, centuries ago, when dinossaurs still wondered around. Plus, English is not my first language so I'll have to translate and re-translate. Still, let me see what I can come up with... Will have to run for my diccionary, though... I´ll try to return tomorrow. And maybe someone with a better memory comes allong!


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Subject: RE: Any students of Latin here?
From: DMcG
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 10:13 AM

Well, The line before it starts with "Cut along the perforated line"


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Subject: RE: Any students of Latin here?
From: Catarina
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 10:15 AM

Loved greg's translation of the last verse... I should have thought about that myself, looks quite obvious!


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Subject: RE: Any students of Latin here?
From: Padre
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 10:17 AM

One translation is:

Hail, hail true body,
born of the virgin Mary,
truly having suffered sacrifice
on the cross on behalf of man.

Whose pierced side
trickled water and blood
be thou for us a foretaste
in the test of death.

Padre


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Subject: RE: Any students of Latin here?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 10:25 AM

This is a very rough attempt:

Hail, hail true body born of the Virgin Mary,
Who was hung on the cross for man,
Whose side was pierced and whose blood did flow,
May I take of your dying body. (?)


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Subject: RE: Any students of Latin here?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 10:28 AM

Ah well - perhaps I should have left it for a proper Latin Scholar !


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Subject: RE: Any students of Latin here?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 10:31 AM

Ave, ave verum corpus, Deus ex Maria Virgine.
Vere passum, immolatum in cruce pro homine.
Cujus latus perforatum, fluxit aqua et sanguine.
Esto nobis praegustatum mortis in examine.


I'm no Latin scolar, but more or less:

Hail, the true body, God born of the Virgin Mary.
Truly suffered, a sacrifice offered on the cross for mankind,
From whose pierced side blood and water flowed.


The last line is about learning to look forward to our own death with the right kind of attitude, but the exact meaning defeats me.

Latin is a very economic language. It can get an awful lot of meaning into a few words.


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Subject: RE: Any students of Latin here?
From: Dani
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 10:44 AM

Thanks, Greg. I spit my drink all over my desk...

Dani


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Subject: RE: Any students of Latin here?
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 10:54 AM

Latin is not too good at subtleties, as it doesn't have enough words; Greek is much better. They're a bit like Newspeak and Oldspeak, and I've often wondered if they had appropriate cultural influences ... maybe German and French would be better examples.

Padre's version looks pretty accurate to me: it's been a good many years since I studied Latin, and I'm more au fait with the philologocal aspects nowadays.

Of course, if you really need a mot juste, English is the language of choice: a lot of the best "modern" English words were coined by the Bible's translators in the 16th century, so it has divine authorisation, too!

Steve


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Subject: RE: Any students of Latin here?
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 01:20 PM

it's a late medieval Latin, written by William Byrd, early 17th c.




Ave Verum Corpus natum
de Maria Virgine.
Vere passum immolatum
in cruce pro homine:
cuius latum perforatum
aqua fluxit et sanguine.
Esto nobis praegustatum
in mortis examine.

O Iesu dulcis!
O Iesu pie!
O Iesu Fili Mariae. Amen.
(or: O clemens, O pie
O dulcis Jesu, Fili Mariae.)

Hail, true Body, truly born
of the Virgin Mary mild.
Truly offered, wracked and torn,
on the Cross for all defiled,
from Whose love-pierced, sacred side
flowed Thy true Blood's saving tide:
be a foretaste sweet to me
in my death's great agony.

O my loving, Gentle One,
Sweetest Jesus,
Mary's Son. Amen.
(or: o gentle, o pious
o sweet Jeus, Son of Mary.)

(Translation by Fr. Edward Francis Garesche, SJ)


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Subject: RE: Any students of Latin here?
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 01:25 PM

that should read a late medival Latin poem, ca. 14th c., also set to music by William Byrd in the 17th c. (not just Mozart)


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Subject: RE: Any students of Latin here?
From: Ulysses 1874
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 03:14 PM

Latin as an economical language: my favourite Latin expression is

Malo malo malo malo.

Latin students will be familiar with its meaning.

Another favourite of mine is this palindrome and magic square:

S A T O R
A R E P O
T E N E T
O P E R A
R O T A S

(Sator arepo tenet opera rotas). The translation is a bit dull, but whoever thought of it was clever.

For translations of these, and a few others, try this link.

Latin Tongue Twisters


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Subject: RE: Any students of Latin here?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 10:38 PM

Thanks for all the responses. I think Padre gets to wear the laurel in this contest. Now I can see new relationships.

immolatum = sacrifice. It bothered me that to immolate something is to burn it up completely, but now I see that in Latin the concepts of sacrifice and burning had merged.


Hail, hail true body,
born of the virgin Mary,
truly having suffered sacrifice
on the cross on behalf of man.

Whose pierced side
trickled water and blood
be thou for us a foretaste
in the test of death.

pregustatum = foretaste. Of course, a pre-gusto.
esto = be, as in German or French est, meaning is.

Only one word still puzzles me. What's "passum"?


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Subject: RE: Any students of Latin here?
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 02:22 AM

"Sacrifice" = "make sacred", from Latin. Pagan sacrifice often involved burning the sacrificial object; the earthly part, the ash, remains behind, while the smoke rises upwards, taking the object's essence to where the god is: whence immolate.

"Passum": can't remember! But Padre gives it as "[truly] having suffered [sacrifice]".


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Subject: RE: Any students of Latin here?
From: greg stephens
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 05:39 AM

"passum" is the original Latin for "opossum". "Passum immolatum" is a description of a Roman meal, when animals run over by chariots were often roasted and eaten.


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Subject: RE: Any students of Latin here?
From: GUEST,Redhorse at work
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 07:21 AM

My fading memory of latin tells me "passum" is past participle of "patere" to suffer, but including the old meaning of "suffer" which was to undergo as in "passive" : the pain maning of suffer came a lot later


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Subject: RE: Any students of Latin here?
From: dermod in salisbury
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 09:35 AM

Truly, Latin is a very economical language, as noted above. But not as economical as ancient Chinese. A confucian proverb literally translates as 'know, know, don't know, don't know'.   Which means means - it also knowledge to know that you don't know. Which sums up the quality of my Latin, though shamefully I studied it for five arduous years at school.

Best wishes.
Dermod


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Subject: RE: Any students of Latin here?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 10:00 AM

Steve Parkes: "while the smoke rises upwards, taking the object's essence to where the god is: whence immolate."

I don't see where immolate comes in. Can you explain a bit further?

Greg Stephens: good joke. Have your ever heard the Ray Stevens song about Southern Air? "They had an Eat More Possum bumpersticker out on the wing."

Dermod: perhaps if there are more threads like this, your Latin will start coming back. It beats threads complaining about bodhrans. (I like bodhran.)


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Subject: RE: Any students of Latin here?
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 12:50 PM

When this poem was written the debate was about the host being or not the true 'Body of Christ', hence the lyric 'verum corpus'. There is probably some subtle connection that resonated with 'taste' in the act of eating the host in communion. So in this case I think the wish in the last line is a positive one, in that the prayer is addressing the host, Christ's body, and saying may my eating your body in communion be a foretaste of the happiness and glory I will enjoy in life eternal. Not may Christ's death be a foretaste of my own death. that doesn't make much sense theologically.


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Subject: RE: Any students of Latin here?
From: Amos
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 03:08 PM

Jeeze, the things they thought up to fuss about!!


A


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Subject: RE: Any students of Latin here?
From: David Ingerson
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 08:54 PM

And we're still doing it! Witness all the threads about what "folk" means! I think humans, some of us, anyway, love to split hairs.

And don't forget the irregular Latin verbs like: slippo, slipere, falli, bumptus, -a, -um!

DAvid


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Subject: RE: Any students of Latin here?
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 02:14 AM

Leeneia, you said It bothered me that to immolate something is to burn it up completely, but now I see that in Latin the concepts of sacrifice and burning had merged, ad I was trying to explain how sacrifice involves burning.

Steve


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Subject: RE: Any students of Latin here?
From: GUEST,chorusstudent33
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 07:32 PM

im not sure exactly what it means, but you have some of it wrong.
Ave verum corpus is by mozart.

ave ave verum corpus
natum dei maria virgine
ere passum imolato en cruche
pro homine....
pretty nuch, the whole thing is about jesus.


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Subject: RE: Any students of Latin here?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 07:43 PM

I'm a student of Mr Google. Hope the following link helps.

Here ya go.


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Subject: RE: Any students of Latin here?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 08:09 PM

"Ave verum corpus" as a hymn dates from the 14th c. Mozart was just one of the composers who composed settings for it.

Hail, true body, born of the virgin Mary,
truly suffered, sacrificed on the cross for humankind,
whose pierced side flowed with water and blood;
may it be for us a foretaste [of what will come]
in the trial of death.
Oh, dear Jesus, oh merciful Jesus, oh Jesus, son of Mary,
have mercy on me.
Amen

en cruce


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Subject: RE: Any students of Latin here?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 08:27 PM

In my view, Mozart's Ave Verum Corpus, just about two minutes long and one of the last pieces he composed, is one of the most perfect little pieces of music ever created. Just thought I'd mention it.


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Subject: RE: Any students of Latin here?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 May 10 - 10:16 PM

"Passum" is the participle of the verb "patior". In Classical Latin it means not just "to suffer", as something painful or bad, but it has a neuter meaning of being the target of an action or experiencing something. In this late Latin usage it acquires the negative meaning, like in the expression "The Passion of Christ" (passus-passion, same root).


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Subject: RE: Any students of Latin here?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 05 May 10 - 12:00 PM

Thanks, Guest. I just encountered the phrase 'vere passum' again in the song Ecce Panis Angelorum. Now I know what it means.


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Subject: RE: Any students of Latin here?
From: Highlandman
Date: 05 May 10 - 02:13 PM

Just got here and missed all the fun.
You've got a pretty good explanation now.
I too think Mozart's setting is one of the most delicious short bits of choral music there is.
Funny thing about Latin being economical... this seems to be one of the most devilishly difficult texts to translate well, especially in a meter that fits the original. All of the "translations" I have seen have either been way off the point, or heinously tortured English. And I can't do any better.
My current church choir director seems to resist singing in Latin for doctrinal reasons, but you can't beat it for a singin' language!
=Glenn


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