Lyr Req: Back Home in Derry (Bobby Sands)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Back Home in Derry (Bobby Sands)
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 16 Jan 04 - 05:00 PM

Citro, NOBODY is not welcome on the Mudcat unless they behave very badly indeed, and I for one (as another non-Irish person) thank you for your contribution. We tend to forget that Australia wasn't the only part of the world uset to get 'unwanted elements' off the British Isles! Go on posting!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Back Home in Derry (Bobby Sands)
From: GUEST,citro 29
Date: 15 Jan 04 - 07:48 AM

hey listen i'm probably not welcome adding my two sence into this convo as i'm not irish. However i am interested in Van diemans Land incredably, may the men and women rest in peace. We in Canada faced close to the same thing, not me directly but inmates before me. Every August 22 we have Prisoners Justice Day, where we celebrate the lives of inmates world wide who fought and fight the system for humanity.We pay our respects by not eating from midnight August 22 to midnight August 23. I'm audviously not in jail now but i continue to deprive myself on this day simply out of respect. Anyways i am looking for info on Van Diemans Land, I think i can do more and it is a very good cause. Unfortunatly i stumbbled on to this site and don't know how i'm gonna get back so if anyone has info you can reach me at [e-mail]. also i'm on msn so if you can add me and we can talk exclusivly.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Back Home in Derry (Bobby Sands)
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Dec 03 - 06:27 PM

Meant to say " Let my gravestone remain uninscribed"!!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Back Home in Derry (Bobby Sands)
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Dec 03 - 05:49 PM

The line in the song that has been much repeated in this thread "O' Doherty screamed, woken out of a dream, by a vision of bold Robert dyin'" is actually " by a vision of bold Robert Emmet"-a reference to the great fenian patriot and poet who was martyred in 1803. Robert Emmets final words were " Let no man gravestone remain uninscribed, when my country takes her place among the nations of the earth-then, and not 'til then let my epitaph be written"

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Edmund Fitzgerald sound-alike
From: GUEST,Declan
Date: 22 May 02 - 05:39 AM

1803 was the year of Robert Emmet's abortive rebellion in Dublin and fits in with the vision of Bold Emmet dying later in the song. So I think he was taking political rather than poetic licence.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Edmund Fitzgerald sound-alike
From: Teribus
Date: 22 May 02 - 05:33 AM

Thanks for the words of the song Martin!

Had a look round and came up with the following in answer to a search for "Convict Ships Australia"

Charles Bateson's "The Convict Ships 1787-1868" is regarded as the definitive guide to Australia's period of transportation. Information is given about the voyages to New South Wales, Norfolk Island, Tasmania, Victoria, Queensland and Western Australia. It ranges from the life on board for both crew and convict, right through to records of deaths, numbers of convicts and the length of each voyage. A comprehensive index of the convict voyages has been extracted from Bateson's text and is presented on our convict shipping pages.
Apart from describing each ship, the index gives the dates of each voyage, the ports they travelled between, the number of male and female convicts embarking and disembarking at each port and the route they took. Discrepancies between the number who embarked and disembarked were often due to deaths on board, transfers to other ships en route, or landing at other ports.

Transported convicts were handed over to the master of a ship at the beginning of the voyage and formally transfered into the custody of the Governor of the colony who was receiving them. Indents, or Indentures, were the documents used to record the transaction on arrival.

Conditions on Board Convicts were housed below decks on the prison deck and often further confined behind bars. In many cases they were restrained in chains and were only allowed on deck for fresh air and exercise. Conditions were cramped and they slept on hammocks. Very little information seems to be available about the layout of the convict ships, but a few books do contain artists' impressions and reproductions of images held in library collections.

Although the convicts of the first fleet arrived in relatively good condition, the same cannot be said for those that followed during the rest of the century. Cruel masters, harsh discipline and scurvy, dysentry and typhoid resulted in a huge loss of life.

After the English authorities began to review the system in 1801 the ships were despatched twice a year, at the end of May and the beginning of September, to avoid the dangerous winters of the southern hemisphere. Surgeons employed by the early contractors had to obey to the master of the ship and on later voyages were replaced by independent Surgeon Superintendents whose sole responsibility was for the well being of the convicts. As time went on, successful procedures were developed and the surgeons were supplied with explicit instructions as to how life on board was to be organised. By then the charterers were also paid a bonus to land the prisoners safe and sound at the end of the voyage.

By the time the exiles were being transported in the 1840s and onwards, a more enlightened routine was in place which even included the presence on board of a Religious Instructor to educate the convicts and attend to their spiritual needs. The shipboard routines on some of the Western Australian transports during the 1860s have been transcribed and are worth reading.

I had a look through the voyage listings mentioned above and came up with a total of 862 (634 from UK mainland ports almost exclusively on the south coast; 214 mainly from the ports of Cork and Dublin; 14 voyages with no port of departure identified). Odd thing was there was no voyage to Australia by a convict ship in 1803 and none at all from Derry or Londonderry as I suppose it would have been called then - mind you there was a war on and Nelson was chasing Villeneuve around the oceans that would have been on their route - so perhaps a bit of artistic license is allowed as he had to find something that would rhyme with "sea".

The other thing that surprised me was how few the number of deaths en-route, but that is explained above.

Another oddity was that transportation to Van Deimans Land (Tasmania) did not start until later and seems to have been used to transport prisoners from English prisons - unless prisoners were transferred which would seem strange, as it must have been easier to take the ship to the port nearest to where the prisoners were being held.

But it was fascinating reading.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Edmund Fitzgerald sound-alike
From: Big Mick
Date: 21 May 02 - 05:44 PM

OOPS! What the hell was I thinking? The last line of the Yeats poem above should read:

The common people, for all time, will raise a cry against the threshold, even though it be the Kings.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Edmund Fitzgerald sound-alike
From: Big Mick
Date: 21 May 02 - 04:02 PM

I agree, Larry. This song is one of my signature songs and is included on our CD. We open it by reading "The Kings Threshhold" by Yeats. The association is obvious:

He pleaded for his poet's rights. I said that I was the King, and all rights had their original fountain is some King. My Bishops, Soldiers, and Makers of Law, all shouted their approval. But the Seanachan went for, and from that hour until this has eaten nothing. He has chosen to die, refusing eat or drink. Aaach, disgrace upon me. The common people, for all time, will refuse to cross the threshhold, even though it be the King's.

We had a thread on this a long time ago. It is very interesting to read as it takes all the twists and turns. Try going to the supersearch and typing BACK HOME IN DERRY into the box and search just the Forum.

---

This link (click) provided by Joe Clicker...

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Edmund Fitzgerald sound-alike
From: InOBU
Date: 21 May 02 - 07:53 AM

Hi Peg!
I have a different take on the song being fun to sing. I have a twin, to whom I am not related, who is so like me, that his sister Liz mistook me for him, so close she has jabbing me in the ribbs, and it took several minutes before she believed that I was not Tony joking with her. Well, Tony and I became close friends, and really like brothers. His brother Patsy O'Hara died on the same hungerstrike as the writer of this song, Bobby Sands. Tony was Bobby's cellmate at the time he wrote the song.
I can't see it as a fun song to sing. It was written while those in Long Kesh concentration camp where held naked in concrete cold cells, in their own filth, as in order to be allowed to clean out the bucket that was their toilet, they would have to put on a prison uniform and acknowelge that the jailing without trial was a legal action.
The words are in no way subtle, when Sands refers to the Irish convicts in their own slime, that, to those of us who intimately know what happened, brings up a host of real horrors which Irish people suffered at the hands of a uncaring colonial power - cavitiy searches used as humiliation and punishment, it would take a book to explain why this is not a fun song to sing, and I shudder when, in Irish American pubs, it is sung causaly with no understanding.
All the best
Larry

Subject: Edmund Fitzgerald sound-alike
From: GUEST
Date: 20 May 02 - 07:37 PM

I know that there's a song out there that has the same tune as "The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald," but a bit more of a folk-ey sound, as well as a chorus. I just don't remember anything else about it. Anyone know what I'm talking about?

-J

Subject: RE: Back home in Derry (Chords request)
From: GUEST,Paul
Date: 23 Dec 01 - 08:20 AM

Click Here for chords

Paul

Subject: Back home in Derry (Chords request)
From: GUEST,Rainer
Date: 23 Dec 01 - 08:06 AM

Hello!

I am looking for the chords of "Back home in Derry".

Thanks in advance Rainer

[e-mail]

Subject: RE: Info on
From:
Date: 26 Sep 99 - 02:09 AM

My friend's band "Sunday's Well" does an excellent version of this song. They are regulars at the Black Rose in Boston.

Subject: RE: BACK HOME IN DERRY
From: WyoWoman
Date: 16 Jul 99 - 10:02 AM

Amen and amen.

WW

Subject: RE: BACK HOME IN DERRY
From: Ferret
Date: 16 Jul 99 - 05:58 AM

This is not much of a suprise from the Unionists. (funny I allwas thought unionist meant to unit not to dived and dived again)

A resent poll of the north still had 61% of the people are still be hind the talks. All we can do is hop and pray that Just once sum common sense can get in to the Unionist.

Well I hop and pray for all Irelands people, and hop the politicians give peace a chance.

Ferret

Subject: RE: BACK HOME IN DERRY
From: The Shambles
Date: 16 Jul 99 - 01:52 AM

It is certainly very sad. We can only hope and pray that the vast majority of the people of Ireland get want they have clearly demonstrated they want and deserve, peace.

Subject: RE: BACK HOME IN DERRY
From: WyoWoman
Date: 15 Jul 99 - 11:21 PM

Hello -- I've been sitting in, just listening. And wondering what you all think about this latest development, with the Unionists refusing to nominate Cabinet leaders and the breakdown of the peace process? Is this, as the pols are saying, just a setback, or is it the end of all the work that's been done in this direction?

WW

Subject: RE: BACK HOME IN DERRY
From: Ferret
Date: 15 Jul 99 - 07:56 PM

Here is the k missed out of know Sorry

ferret

Subject: RE: BACK HOME IN DERRY
From: Ferret
Date: 15 Jul 99 - 07:54 PM

Re: Mike

I do not advocate violence to solve a problem.

I wish I was able to say that the comment on the P.M. was not a commonly held view in the U.K. by the British at the time, but I can not.

I now of a lot of Brits who were arming up at the time.

This in a country with very few arms, but with the labour Government this is dying down now.

26+6=1

all the best

Ferret

Subject: RE: BACK HOME IN DERRY
From: Big Mick
Date: 15 Jul 99 - 06:39 PM

Ferret, your message came through loud and clear and it is much appreciated. It cleared some things up for me. I appreciate the effort it took to do it.

For me the acid test is not whether or not someone agrees with me or not. The only thing that I expect is that when they take a position it is from an informed view. If one is willing to take a position, then it should be because they have arrived at it from a strong examination of all the facts. I can see that you are well informed. I probably don't agree with everything you have said, particularly the piece about what Irish Americans do or don't understand. But I do see where you are coming from and appreciate the depth of feeling with which you state your case.

I will not comment on most of what you have said as I agree with most of it. The intransigence of the Loyalist being brought to light is an affirmation of a long held opinion of mine. The only people in the North who make this a religious issue is the Loyalists. They continue to fight unification on the supposed basis that they don't want to live in a Papist state. The facts are that the Republic is extremely religously tolerant country.

One more comment that I would make. I hope your comment on Thatcher was tongue in cheek. While I accept that as PM she was a legitimate military target, I do not wish the ASU's had got her. I intensely dislike her labor politics and her position on the Irish. But I do not wish her dead, just defeated.

Tiocfaidh a/r la/.

Mick

Subject: RE: BACK HOME IN DERRY
From: Ferret
Date: 15 Jul 99 - 02:35 PM

Re: Mick

I to believe in a united Ireland, Free and unshackled. And there was a time for the armed struggle and a time to suspend it.

There are many indents that have been committed by English government but with a 'D' notices the press are gagged. In earlier times most of the common English could not read and it is very hard to know how much you don't know.

When Republican MP's are not allowed to take their seat in Parliament or be hard on TV and radio there is no point in the ballot box and people lose faith in Democratic methods

But with radio and T.V. you would think that it would be better, but it was not till the arrival of satellite T.V. and the Internet that the truth has started to come out and the English that I have spoken to on this which are many have been horrified.

In the U.S. I can forgive you not knowing what it is, to not have a free press if you had the same laws there that we have hear there would not have been a Water Gate.

Now Cromwell was a right B***** to the English too, killing thousands & thousands hear too, his men Rap, Robed and Killed at will.

Now the common Englishman is a reasonable man and dose not tolerate in justice and oppression (i.e.: The Gulf, Bosnai, and Kosovo ) any more than the next.

And if the same things had all been dun to them as were in Ireland you would have got the same results.

Now when is a freedom fighter a terrorist, when you don't agree with him.

All Governments sponsor freedom fight/terrorist the U.S. & the U.K. are no

exception to this rule.

In the sixty's the British Army was sent in to the North to protect the Catholics, now it did not stay that way for long.

And as more and more of the Army was sent in more and more came home disillusioned and disturbed by all they had seen and heard and many left the Army for this reason.

They spoke to other's and it has spread to so many who like my self would have loved to have been in the Army would not go in, and go to Ireland, and firmly believe that the English have NO business in Northern Ireland.

Now it is becoming more visible as to who are the one's who are holding up the negotiation, not the I.R.A. and not the British (At the moment) but the loyalist. And if this falls threw all over their inability to sit down and talk with some one with a different opinion.

They have to under stand that no Army in history has laid down it's arms before there is peace and neither can the I.R.A. yet there is still a long way to go.

At the end of the day all people want the same thing for their family and loved ones so we must find a way of doing this, hopefully peacefully.

But it's not so many years since the U.K. under Margaret Thatcher was getting very near to Armed Rebellion with the poll tax and other things.

A very large number of the British will not forgive the I.R.A. for missing her in Brighton.

I'm sorry if I have rambled on I do get carried away some times when I feel so strongly about something.

I hop this has not offend. But to be able to listen to other people and discuss is the only way to go. May the God's bless Ireland and ALL her people.

26+6=1

P.S. I am a Pagan and have no religious axe to grind ether way but we have been persecuted by all side for 2,000 years.

I am dyslexic so if there are spelling or spellchecker faults sorry.

All the best Ferret

Subject: RE: BACK HOME IN DERRY
From: alison
Date: 15 Jul 99 - 09:31 AM

Hi,

I would like to have been taught Irish history in school, but it was only taught to the A level people (17-18 year olds) and I had given up well before then.

I am only now learning Gaelige, which again was something I wish I had done in school... but I give up ...I can't find "cabra" in my dictionary. so what does it mean please?

slainte

alison

Subject: RE: BACK HOME IN DERRY
From: Big Mick
Date: 15 Jul 99 - 09:18 AM

First off, my friend, the answer is to be open to other opinions. When that doesn't happen, you have intolerance, such as you see every 12th of July. Second off, if weren't for the "interference" of others that hadn't lived there assisting the oppressed, the American Civil Rights movement would never have been spawned. The same is true in the north of IRELAND. It is usually the oppressors or the people who benefit from discrimination that want the "foreigners" to leave. Finally, you should have read the whole thread before commenting. Uninformed opinion is usually about hearing oneself speak. You would have seen, had you read it, that most of the people who have expressed an opinion, want to honor the wishes of the people of the North of Ireland. Give it a read again, and then let's have a discussion about your land and the land of my grandparents and my family.

Mick

Subject: RE: BACK HOME IN DERRY
From: Ferret
Date: 14 Jul 99 - 11:35 AM

I have many friends in both in the north and the south of ireland, and have had many talks on this subject. I have found that in Ireland almost no English history is taught. And in England and the north no Irish history is taught. The only way to fight ignoranc and predigest is with education, tolerance and understanding on both side's. As some one who had his sister nearly blown-up in the Deal boming it is not some thing i am not affeceted by. But an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth gives you a country with a blind and tooth-less people. we have to find a way to sort this problem out to the wishes of ALL the people that live in Northan Ireland. The problem would be much eaiser to sort without the antagonistic interferance of people who do not/have not lived in the North for years and years if ever.

Eire cabra:

ferret

Subject: RE: 'Back Home In Derry' Lyric search
From: alison
Date: 14 Jul 99 - 06:55 AM

Hi...

Here's a previous Back home in Derry thread

started an interesting discussion....

slainte

alison

Subject: RE: 'Back Home In Derry' Lyric search
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Jul 99 - 05:10 AM

Lyrics sent by e-mail. Duplicates of this thread deleted. It seems the threads with generic titles just draw more generic requests, so, I've been transferring the information over into threads with appropriate titles, so the information doesn't get lost.

Subject: RE: 'Back Home In Derry' Lyric search
From: Ted from Australia
Date: 14 Jul 99 - 04:53 AM

Richard,
Welcome to the Mudcat

Type [back home in Derry] in square brackets in the blue square at the top rh corner of the page and you will be transported to the DT and the words and music to over 6,000 folk songs

Regards, Ted.

See advice in Back Home in Derry thread You have posted this 3 times. please dont be impatient :-), the friendly folks here will help you out as soon as they can. . The Yanks are all asleep at this time of day.

BTW the "air" is not traditional Christie Moore attributes the tune to Gordon Lightfoot's Wreck of the Edmond Fitzgerald

Regards, Ted.

Subject: 'Back Home In Derry' Lyric search
From:
Date: 14 Jul 99 - 04:23 AM

Please help with a URL or maybe the lyrics to this song

Subject: RE: BACK HOME IN DERRY
From: Billy J
Date: 08 May 99 - 07:18 PM

mudcatters. music crosses all divides we play in sessions all over the north of ireland including donegal and have never asked our fellow their religion or views. we are happy that we have never had this problem and would ask that it should not be raised in the mudcat. most of us would like to forget the past.

Billy J Co Antrim

Subject: RE: BACK HOME IN DERRY
From: The Shambles
Date: 07 May 99 - 07:04 PM

Refresh

Subject: RE: BACK HOME IN DERRY
From: Kathleen
Date: 30 Sep 98 - 01:35 PM

Many times it feels like trying to understand the problem with Northern Ireland and looking for a solution is just like running into a brick wall over and over again. But there's always the hope that you will break through. If enough people pound on the wall and weaken it, it will one day fall. The problem lies in being patient enough to see the day it falls.

A lot of people don't realize the depth and complexities of the problem and are quick to pass judgement, which can be extremely frustrating. (not directed to anyone here, rather someone I was talking to yesterday.) Nothing will be solved until people on both sides are willing to compromise. The thing is, nobody (again in general) really likes to compromise, especially when dealing with their lives and beliefs. No one can truly justify using violence, but they can make a good case sometimes, and if they're talking to the right people, the violence will continue. I can't make any brilliant suggestions or give any good insight, but at least know that the fact that this thread has evolved into a good discussion is in itself, part of the solution.

Kathleen

Subject: RE: BACK HOME IN DERRY
From: Big Mick
Date: 30 Sep 98 - 08:48 AM

Tim, I agree that the descendants of the "unwelcome strangers" are now just as Irish as any other. You need only look to the success of Meanscoi/l Feirste (Belfast Irish School) in Belfast to see the evidence of this. It is a secondary school which teaches in Irish as its primary medium. English is only used when it is being taught as a second language. The school has Catholics and Protestants alike, who are united in their irishness and love of the language. Historically, the "Old English" whom today we know by the "Fitz" in their names, were originally Norman settlers who became some of the most Irish of our people. The problem has no simple solution. To illustrate, I will use the example of a friend of mine. I am purposely leaving out names as I have not asked his permission, but his story is compelling. He is a founding member of one of the greatest Irish bands ever. They recorded the original version of the largest selling song in the history of Irish radio. They wrote songs about the troubles, about the ancient wrongs committed against their people, and recorded many songs about the bold IRA. To say that they were a voice in support of the armed struggles would be to put it mildly. A couple of years ago, a young RUC policeman was assassinated. This was shortly after the peace negotiations had begun. No one could figure out why he was killed. He had a Catholic wife and was raising his children Catholic. When I saw the pictures of the grieving widow, my friend was at her side. It turned out that it was his sister and the young RUC man was his brother-in-law. Can you imagine the thoughts that he must have now? The doubts as to whether some of his music may have contributed to this? I wonder what questions his nieces will have for him someday.

What's the point the story,you might ask. Well, mostly to point out that nothing is ever as clean and easy as we Americans like to think. There was a movie recently with Harrison Ford and Brad Pitt. Without commenting on the merits of the movie, there was a line in it that really struck home for me. It was when the Pitt character said, "It's not an American story, It's Irish". The guys in the white hats are not going to ride in and save Ireland. Irish people have to step to the plate and find ways to deal with 600 years of very complex problems. And they need to be supported in their efforts by the Irish in other lands. If the wish of the people had been to continue the armed struggle, then I would be supportive of that too. But they have chosen, in a convincing fashion, the way of negotiation.

Enough of my rambling,

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: BACK HOME IN DERRY
From:
Date: 30 Sep 98 - 03:13 AM

The transplanted strangers have been there too long to send them home. If you take that argument to its logical conclusion then white North Americans should pack up and move back to Europe, and give the land back to those who had it first. I've heard people say that this is so, but I have yet to see any of them buying plane tickets.

Subject: RE: BACK HOME IN DERRY
From: Pete M
Date: 29 Sep 98 - 05:44 PM

Thanks Mick, for putting that view far better than I could.

If you or any others got the impression from my earlier contribution that I was not aware of the history prior to the sixties, or that I was trying to allocate or transfer "blame"; that was my error for not making myself clear. I confined myself to those areas I spoke of, because they were ones on which I could quote from personal or first hand, experience. My friends in Northern Ireland are catholic, and so I have an insight into the machinations on that side. I did not mean to imply that there was not at least as much cynicism and manipulation by the protestants or the British authorities. I agree Mick, that sometimes you have to fight, but most emphatically agree with you that we must never loose sight of the fact that the "enemy" is as human and important an individual as ourselves. Similarly, we can honour courage, and the sacrifice people make for their beliefs, without being blind to their faults.

Iason, I did not mean to imply that you supported indescriminate violence, but I did feel, and still do, that the kind of "joyous hatred" for the "other side" which came through in your earlier post can only perpetuate a problem. If in the process of redressing one wrong, another group is demonised and marginalised, they too will inevitably instigate an "armed struggle for freedom" of their own.

Not all of us are, or have been, "sitting safe in America", but I would not presume to judge you on the basis of a few lines, although I do reserve the right to judge, and comment on, the ideas expressed in those lines.

The important point is that we all agree on the need to heed the will of the majority in Ireland, and ensure that the peace process is not highjacked or subverted by fanatics of either hue.

Pete M

Subject: RE: BACK HOME IN DERRY
From: Big Mick
Date: 29 Sep 98 - 09:47 AM

Gentlemen,

I agree that many of my countrymen have a skewed idealistic view of the troubles. What troubles me most is their view of the war as a glorious battle for a free, united Ireland. War is never glorious, and I speak from the perspective of a person who was in the US military from 1969 to 1975. I remember being at a party a few years ago, when a young man who "supports the Republican cause" was bragging loudly that we had "shot down a Brit helicopter" as if he had been there. He caught me at a bad moment. I remember grabbing him and asking him what the hell he knew about killing. I remember asking him if he had ever looked into the eyes of a man that he was in the process of killing, and feeling the little shudder a body lets off as it gives up its soul. I also chastised him to remember that for every "Brit" killed, some mother cries for her lost son, some sister cries for her dead brother, perhaps some child will never know the love of its father. It is when we allow the commanders to dehumanize our enemy that war becomes glorious, instead of the most terrible job that sometimes MUST be done.

Iason, if you took offense at my comments, please accept my apologies. It is just that I have seen to many of my Irish American friends with this glorified view of the troubles. I believe strongly in one Ireland, free and undivided. I have supported the armed struggle in the past, and I believe you should be able to tell from the above paragraph that I have not done so blind to the terrible cost. I have supported it primarily with political action. My comments, in fact, were meant to say to Irish Americans that if you really support the Irish people, you will support their wishes to give this process a fair chance, and conversely will do nothing to support tearing it down.

Pete M., thanks for your kind comments. While I don't necessarily disagree with some of your facts with regard to the manipulation of events on both sides, the base line remains. You indicated that the Catholics were discriminated against in the sixties. The fact is that the Catholics have been discriminated against since the time of Cromwell and before. The underlying problem in the North is that the "unwelcome stranger" put a stranglehold on the resources and employment over three hundred years ago and have yet to let it go. Your analogy to the problems of the African-American is right on the money. I do not believe that we would be at the gateway to peace were it not for the IRA forcing the world to look at the problems with a critical eye. I will never allow the assertion that "England and her policies on the Irish question are not the root of the problem" to go unchallenged. Any attempt to shift culpability to the IRA is simply an attempt to shift the premise of the debate and is not born out by historical fact.

I intend to remain supportive of the wishes of the Irish people on this matter.

Mick

Subject: RE: BACK HOME IN DERRY
From:
Date: 29 Sep 98 - 01:56 AM

The problem is that many sit back in their safe North American homes or lean at the bar in their pseudo-Irish pubs and send money to the guys who plant the bombs. If they went in person to fight the SAS I might have a little more respect for them, although I would still think they are several decades out of time.

At least the guys who opposed Franco went to Spain themselves, but I suppose that was a different generation. I don't think I would want my cause supported by fat guys in stretchy plaid pants who drink green beer and cry when they listen to The Wild Rover.

Subject: RE: BACK HOME IN DERRY
From: Iason
Date: 29 Sep 98 - 01:35 AM

I spent nearly 30 yrs of my life in and around Derry. I never said that I supported the targetting of civilians and have always opposed such actions for many, many reasons. Nor do I hold the view that just because someone is not a Catholic that they are therefore to be treated automatically as the enemy. I have however spent most of my life working towards a free Ireland. Those of you in the US take your freedom for granted. Perhaps only the blacks have any idea of the persecution that was practised and indeed still exists - only on a more subtle level. So don't be so arrogant as to judge me so quickly and surely. I would certainly much rather see Ireland united through peaceful means. If this can be achieved I would be overjoyed. Nobody wants to see death and injury if peace and goodwill can achieve the same aim. I am also prepared to give the peace process every possible chance. Just don't sit back in your safe North American homes and judge me based on your interpretation of a few lines. May God bless and unite Ireland and all her people...

Subject: RE: BACK HOME IN DERRY
From: Alan of Australia
Date: 28 Sep 98 - 06:37 AM

G'day,
The Fatal Shore by Robert Hughes certainly is an important account of the Australian penal settlements, some of the worst being in Van Diemen's Land (Tasmania), e.g. Port Arthur and MacQuarie Harbour. Norfolk Island (Mutiny on the Bounty) now a holiday resort was also very cruel.

Irish immigrants, both voluntary and otherwise have played a very significant part in Australia's history.

Cheers,
Alan

Subject: RE: BACK HOME IN DERRY
From:
Date: 27 Sep 98 - 04:53 PM

Some of the rebels from the 1837 rebellion in Canada were also sent to Van Diemen's Land, if they weren't lucky enough to escape to the US. One, I think, eventually rose a position of some prominence in Australia. I'll have to go look at that historical plaque again.

I think there is a song in the Helen Creighton collection, from Nova Scotia, about Van Diemen's Land although I am not aware that prisoners from NS were sent there.

Associated reading, The Fatal Shore.

As for these songs stirring up old quarrels, listen to The House of Orange, by Stan Rogers, for a different view. I would have thought that the EU would have put an end to this kind of nationalism in Europe nowadays. Even the English are taking their laws from Brussels.

Subject: RE: BACK HOME IN DERRY
From: Kathleen
Date: 25 Sep 98 - 02:58 PM

I would like to think that I know something about the situation, but htankfully I have not had to deal with it first hand on a regular basis. There have been comments and such directed towards me due to my background, but I feel that I can look at it in a fair context. With that said, let me tell you a little story. . .

From my understanding, the clan O'Neill has been a powerful clan for thousands of years. To be the High Ling, you had to be an O'Neill, etc, etc. And so it continued untill the late 1500's, early 1600's when Hugh O'Neill led the doomed Last Great Rebellion and fled the country. The O'Neill family continued to support the Irish cause against England. Then, at the end of the 1800's, a branch of the O'Neills was forced to come to America, Rochester, New York (by way of Canada) to be precise, although this was not because of the famine. They lived there, raising their children as good Catholics. One James O'Neill married and had four kids, the youngest named Martha. Prior to his settling down, he had fought in WWII, contracted malaria in Africa, and spent some time recooperating in Ireland, where he became a supporter of the IRA and possibly a member (but I have no record or that). He also raised his kids Catholic.

Meanwhile, the McMichael family of the Stewarts of Appin in Scotland, were fighting their own struggle agaisnt the English. Being unsuccessful, they fled to Northern Ireland, where they lived for a time until they got into trouble with the law there and came to America. They settled in north western Pennsylvania. One of the sons' sons was Rev. William McMichael, a prominent Presbyterian (please forgive my spelling) minister, who built 6 (I think) churhces and wrote a number of books. His children and grandchildren were all raised Protestant, but William (different one) married a Catholic woman and raised his four kids as Catholic, which did not make the family very happy, but hsi immediate family still talked to him. His oldest son was named Dennis.

As fate would have it, Dennis McMichael and Martha O'Neill happened to both be hired by the same company and became friends, fell in love, got married, and had four kids, the oldest named Kathleen. I would like to point out that my mother's family is still supportive of a Free Ireland, while one of my father's relaties, Gary, heads a Protestant political party in Northern Ireland. In fact, Gary's father was killed by an IRA car bomb in the 80's. So if this isn't sleeping with hte enemy in real life, I don't know what is.

The End

Sorry that was so long, but it was nice to tell it to people who would understand. I live in a very Slovak town where I was once asked if I was speaking English when I told my classmates my name at the public school. The sad thing is the kid was being serious!

Later,

Kathleen

Subject: RE: BACK HOME IN DERRY
From: Pete M
Date: 24 Sep 98 - 05:49 PM

Thank you for your understanding Alison I tried to avoid any statement which could be construed as partisan in my contribution as much from my knowledge of your origins as form the view that it would not help.

Mick, if everyone, not just in Ireland, had your strenghth of character and "rightness" to look beyond the political folk tales and myths they are taught when young, the world would be a better and safer place.

For what it's worth, I will add a few comments which may present a different view to the "official" line of either side.

Firstly back in the sixties (when you and I were young Maggie :-)), there were undoubted inequalities and persecution of the Catholic community. I and the vast majority of my peers, worked as actively against this as we did against Vietnam. I believe that the ground swell of political opinion would have seen these addressed to the satisfaction of the majority of Catholics, and it was for this reason that the IRA, very skilfully, and cynically, exploited protest marches to create a violent outcome. I say this on the basis of information that is in the public record and also from the personal recollections of Catholics who were actively involved at the time, and whom I count amongst my friends.

Similarly, the view of some "martyrs" held by those who grew up with them is, I know, at odds with the hagiographic view held by many Americans of Irish descent.

OK end of history lesson, the next bit is my personal opinion.

It is unfortunate but true, that the kind of person most effective in the kind situation which existed are those who in another time or place would gravitate to organised crime, Mafia etc. I am not suggesting that they do not necessarily, on either side, hold their beliefs sincerely, just that as I said above, that someone supports your cause, does not them make them a saint.

At the end of the day, the "armed struggle" and its counter by the protestants, boils down to the end justifying the means. If we accept that, then how can we condemn bombs in 747's, Oaklahoma state buildings; Agent orange; "ethnic cleansing" etc.? I believe you have the right to die for something you believe in, I do not believe you have the right to kill someone for being "different", or because an ethinic/cultural minority are percieved as being oppressed. I seem to remember around 30 million people dying 50 years ago because someone held those views.

Sorry if I've rambled on, I'm really not the best person to comment, but if anything has really depressed me recently, it was the reported intention of NORAID to continue funding violence in Northern Ireland despite as Mick has pointed out, the wishes of a majority of all Ireland; and after Iason's little effort I felt I had to say something.

Pete M

Subject: RE: BACK HOME IN DERRY
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 24 Sep 98 - 05:29 PM

I'd like few things better than to be proven wrong about this.

Subject: RE: BACK HOME IN DERRY
From: alison
Date: 23 Sep 98 - 11:57 PM

Hi,

I have nothing against talking about the troubles at home. My problem is with the sort of comment above which only help to fuel the hatred that is always there, sometimes below the surface, sometimes not.

I personally do not care what category other people fall into. It shouldn't matter if they're protestant, catholic, buddhist, muslim, or bug-eyed alien they all have the right to be treated equally, and have the right to express their point of view. It's when that point of view is taken to be the only true and right one that I have the problem.

As Mick (I think) said earlier there are generations of kids in Ireland who have been brought up to be (at the very least) suspicious of the opposite side of the community. eg. don't trust him, he's a protestant / catholic. Until we start to build up trust in each other it's going to be very difficult to get anything accomplished.

I was one of the lucky ones, my family was not bigotted. I have friends both protestant and catholic. My sister and I attended a mixed (religion) school. I will admit that there were areas of Belfast that I would prefer not to go to, in case of trouble. This is not a good thing but it's just part of the nature of what was going on. People were very wary of each other, often you felt that you needed to be careful of what you said in case "someone was listening." Having said all that I find it's the same in most big cities... there are areas you just don't go to because they're "bad areas".

Having painted that picture, Belfast is a lovely city, it was a great place to grow up. There was very little in the way of street crime, kids were able to walk to school on their own or go to the park without fear of being abducted. I miss the friendliness of the people.

Don't apologise Joe, I don't mind having a discussion, it's the nastiness that it could bring out that I don't want.

Slainte

alison

Subject: RE: BACK HOME IN DERRY
From: Big Mick
Date: 23 Sep 98 - 10:50 PM

I would like to second both of you. Some time back I allowed myself to get sucked into some nastiness. I have regretted it since as I felt I had demeaned our marvellous creative community. I made an oath that I would not allow it to happen again.

alison, I have many Irish friends, a number of them from the North. Some feel as you do, others are strident supporters of the armed struggle. I know that most of the time, we 'catters prefer to stick to the music. But so much of the music of Ireland deals with the struggle, that it seems appropriate to have a discussion. Being raised in Belfast, you would be invaluable to that discussion. My own background is simply that I was raised in a very Republican emmigrant family, "raised on songs and stories, heroes of reknown" and I have been around Irish friends and relatives all my life. I could certainly add a different perspective to the discussion, but you were raised with the troubles. Give it some thought, OK?

And to all others, by its nature the subject is volatile. It need not be uncivil.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: BACK HOME IN DERRY
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Sep 98 - 08:55 PM

Well, Dick, I guess we have had more than our share of nastiness here lately. I hope it goes away. I prefer the friendly, civil tone of most of the discussions we've had in the past. I can't see how nastiness can accomplish anything worthwhile.
What harm is there in being good to each other?
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BACK HOME IN DERRY
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 23 Sep 98 - 08:50 PM

Joe- Re:"Of course, I would hope that any such discussion would be friendly, peaceful, and reasonable,governed by logic and not by slogans and prejudice."

When you have some spare cash, I have some shorefront property in Arizona you might wish to buy.

Subject: RE: BACK HOME IN DERRY
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Sep 98 - 08:42 PM

With apologies to Alison, I would like to hear a discussion of the politics of the problems of Ireland. It's something that we in the rest of the world need to understand. I realize that it can be painful to talk about it, but people need to hear it.
Of course, I would hope that any such discussion would be friendly, peaceful, and reasonable, governed by logic and not by slogans and prejudice.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BACK HOME IN DERRY
From: Big Mick
Date: 22 Sep 98 - 11:30 PM

Lest I be misunderstood. I love this song because it is about honorable people fighting injustice against hopeless odds. They chose a very old custom, used by their people over centuries to combat this type of oppression.

I have always supported the just struggle of the Irish people to have one Ireland, undivided and free. But I must tell you, Iason, that we must never allow the struggle to be reduced to phrases and curses. When we dehumanize those that oppose our aims, we close the door on any peaceful, long term solution. When we do that, we condemn another generation of Irish children to experience that which alison so eloquently expresses. And we encourage the types of acts of brutal savagery that we recently saw in Omagh. The people of the North and the South of Ireland have spoken. If the Irish in America and other parts of the world are as interested in the future of the land of our parents as we say we are, then we will support their wishes with the same fervor that we have supported the armed struggle. "Tiocfaidh a/r la/" - Bobby Sands

So here's to a grand song that salutes brave people who wished for a free and peaceful Ireland. When this finally comes to the land which has given all of us, Irish born and Irish claimed, this marvellous culture that we celebrate, it will be in some measure due these brave lads.

"Life springs from death; and from the graves of patriot men and women spring living nations" Padraig Mac Piaras

Mick

Subject: RE: BACK HOME IN DERRY
From: alison
Date: 22 Sep 98 - 08:37 PM

hi,

Can we leave the politcs out of this because we're not all going to agree. I've lived through all of this, never actually knew peace in my lifetime (not until the last two lots of it anyway..... let's hope it lasts this time)

Surely the object of this discussion is to appreciate a good song, (which this certainly is)..... so let's get back to that.

Slainte

alison

Subject: RE: BACK HOME IN DERRY
From: Pete M
Date: 22 Sep 98 - 05:09 PM

Iason,

your attitude is what, I am afraid, has killed thousands in Ireland over the years, and it will never know peace nor unity while this view prevails. Until we are ready to admit that those who support our cause are as likely to be murderers and criminals and those who oppose us honorable, there can never be true reconciliation.

Fortunately for Ireland, I believe your attitude is now held, apart from a very small minority, only by those who have never had any direct experience of the struggle.

Pete M