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BS: Culture of Offendedness
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Subject: BS: Culture of Offendedness From: Jeri Date: 02 Apr 03 - 02:04 PM I mentioned this in another thread. It just seems that there's a growing phenomenon - people who enjoy being pissed off about damned near anything. Perhaps it started a few decades ago with expository journalism and gained ground with TV 'talk' shows that have the audience shouting at guests. It's growing here at Mudcat, too. I mean, start a thread on "Baa, Baa Black Sheep," and some folks will get pissed off about singling out a black sheep, others will say 'sheep' isn't a polite term, still others will be indignant about the questioner apparently condoning the exploitation of sheep, or say they're offended by wool clothing, someone will insist "baa" is spelled wrong and should be in quotes, someone will call the questioner a troll... ...and people will invariably pick one of the original indignancies to pursue and the original subject will be forgotten. Often, the humanity of the other people involved will be as well. T'm not talking specifically about Mudcat - we're just a microcosm. It seems to be pretty easy to accidentally start an argument just about anywhere. Some individuals are always going to look for things they can be offended by. It just seems to me that being angry is becoming the fashion of the day. Am I wrong? (Points for lack of originality deducted if you post to say you're offended.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness From: PeteBoom Date: 02 Apr 03 - 02:18 PM I'm offended that you'd suggest this, Jeri! (Who said I was original? ;-) Actually, I think its part of the "victim mentality." Something BAD happens, so someone MUST be to blame. The possibility that the healthy looking tree limb might break in a storm means that I'm to blame if it comes down on the fence. The chance that the fellow whose car slides into mine on icey pavement - sending me into someone else, is the fault of him (for driving in winter) and me (likewise) the tire manufacturers on our respective cars, the manufacturers of our respective cars, the contractor who put down the pavement, the city for not taking decisive action to deal with the ice and the local weather forecasters for not giving precise enough information or faulty information. Everyone is dead serious about so much, they've forgotten that sometimes accidents happen and if you can't laugh at yourself, your fragile ego is right properly screwed up. There is no reason to take yourself so bloody seriously. Really. Cheers - Pete |
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Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness From: MMario Date: 02 Apr 03 - 02:21 PM yup - I think you're right - it's a growinbg phenomenon - encouraged by the "sue 'em" mentality that is likewise becoming more prevalant - and the "me,me,me" attitude that likewise become more prevalent as the baby boomer generation gets older. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness From: GUEST Date: 02 Apr 03 - 02:21 PM All of which may account for the plethora of lawyers and law suits. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness From: GUEST Date: 02 Apr 03 - 02:24 PM uh, Jeri...BAA is spelled BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA or ABAAAAAAAAAAAAAA |
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Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness From: Rick Fielding Date: 02 Apr 03 - 02:29 PM It HAS become the fashion of the day Jeri. There are dozens of reasons I guess, but laughing at something that pokes fun at YOU, just seems to be a reaction of the distant past. I guess I'm one of those Mudcatters who often thinks that a bit of a joke can distract a couple of people who are bent on out 'Blue clickeying' each other, but it certainly doesn't have the same impact it had four years ago. My guess is that they're just as combative in 'real life', and that's seriously bad for the heart. I saw something about an hour ago that was simply pathetic in it's predictability. We were caught in a traffic jam, with a streetcar about five cars ahead of us. It wanted to turn left, but the oncoming traffic was blocking the intersection. Heather and I were talking so I wasn't watching closely, until..... a woman behind us, got out of her car and knocked on the window of a double-parked car on the other side that was INADVERTANTLY (they were waiting for grandma or something) causing the whole Jam. "He's gonna get mad, and tell her to fuck off", I said....and sadly that's exactly what happened. After she'd shrugged her shoulders and went back to her car, the guy looked around and realized he'd only have to move two feet to free up the traffic. He did. That's a little different than the situations you probably had in mind Jeri, but it was just one more human being simply WAITING to be offended. Cheers....GREAT thread. Rick |
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Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness From: Amos Date: 02 Apr 03 - 02:36 PM Offense is an easy election, isn't it? You don't have to take any action, do anything effective, or resolve any difference in viewpoint, you don't even have to communicate -- just whine, one-way. And what is amazing is how many people, instead of observing that person X has elected to be offended, have to jump in and start passing judgement on the issue without much minding where it came from, passing out decrees of goodness and badness as though they had some inside track on the Akashic Handbook of Trivial Karma (High Precision Edition -- Scores up to eight decimal points!(. It reminds me of those exploratory games that small children play to learn how they relate to each other -- they list things in the world and state which ones they like and which ones they decide are "sucky", in an effort to draw up some sort of tribal map of allegiances. They cover everything from candy to colors to TV characters to shoe styles and kinds of socks and eyeglasses. But I had always imagined that people outgrew that game as they learned a bit more about how the world is stitched together. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 02 Apr 03 - 02:41 PM There's a difference between getting indignant because someone says something that might insult you yourself, and something that seems designed to hurt or diminish someone else, especially someone weaker or more vulnerable. Here's a link to a song I wrote and posted on the Mudcat about this kind of thing - Poison in Jest: If I'll call you what I choose, what's that got to do with you? It's not my problem if the words appall you. It's how I always speak when I'm talking to a freak, and it doesn't really matter what I call you. Yes, I'll speak to you direct, that's what you must expect - No I never mess around with being "Politically Correct." Which doesn't mean I don't get suspicious of this kind of thing often enough. It seems to me there are some people who use this kind of issue as a mechanism for exerting power; and there are some who pick out and even manufacture exaggerated examples of it as a way of undermining the whole notion that courtesy to other people requires that we take care what sort of words we use to refer to them and so forth. And I'm talking about the wide world here, rather than the Mudcat. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness From: kendall Date: 02 Apr 03 - 02:45 PM Oh, yeah?? As usual, Jeri is right on the money. I get peeved myself sometimes, not that anyone would notice, but, when I see the news on TV, and hear a reporter say, that 14 car pile up and resulting injuries are being blamed on the snow storm, I just can't contain my "BULLSHIT, blame it on the assholes who can't drive. Do I need professional help? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness From: Kim C Date: 02 Apr 03 - 03:22 PM It seems like so many want to blame everyone else except themselves. If you get offended about everything, then no one will take you seriously when there is a valid reason to be offended. And let's be honest, sometimes there is - but we all have to choose our battles. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness From: GUEST Date: 02 Apr 03 - 03:44 PM Nicely said, Kim! Kendall, blaming things on acts of God is another variant of the same shtick -- surely one most often chooses how to deal with snowstorms. There is certainly, on the other side, those who use truth as a bludgeon, without any sense of consequences and I suppose as in most things there is a balance between being brutal and being overly-timid. Maybe the criteria should be whether the remark is true, necessary and helpful. Regards, A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness From: Don Firth Date: 02 Apr 03 - 04:03 PM Comedian Penn Gillette once made the comment that "there are people who could find something to be offended at by merely walking through the debris after an explosion in a Scrabble tile factory." Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 02 Apr 03 - 04:08 PM Certainly I'd blame the drivers - but I'd also blame the system that all too often fails to screen out people who do not have the self control and other qualities needed to make them fit to use a potentially lethal vehicle. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness From: Troll Date: 02 Apr 03 - 04:54 PM Reminds me of a bumper sticker I saw a while back. "Protect the easily offended. Ban everything." Please forgive the thread creep. I hope it didn't offend anyone. Kevin, a question, if you don't mind. How on earth would one go about screening prospective drivers to ensure that the requisite qualities are present? I'm not asking in an challenging manner. I'd truly like to know. troll ( G-d. How tedious.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness From: Beccy Date: 02 Apr 03 - 04:58 PM Troll- I want one of those bumper stickers... that's great. Beccy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness From: JenEllen Date: 02 Apr 03 - 05:13 PM Yeah, you are right, Jeri. I always figured it was a case of self-centeredness coupled with a lack of manners. I don't know if it's just a 'human thing' but people (self included) have a really hard time in stepping back and realizing that it isn't always about them, that there might be others, complete strangers even, that would suffer for their actions. That self-centeredness might be conquerable, but when you pair it with unconscionably bad manners? When you lose that little voice that tells you to mind your p's and q's, bad things happen. I fear for us humans, it's probably terminal. As a microcosm, Mudcat suffers because you can't SEE people, read body language and factor in a poke in the ribs unless someone takes the time to type it out (yawn). In the real world, it's scary as hell and you figure that same feeling has to transfer over to Mudcat, right? Example: When I travel, it's usually out of the Seattle airport. Coming home is always a disaster, the parking garages spit you out on this open piece of tarmac where people have to jockey for position in lines at the payment turnstiles. I've actually seen people get out of their cars and attack other drivers. I figure that eventually I'll get out of the garage, I have to, right? --so I have no problem in letting people pull in in front of my car. You get one of two responses: first being the overly effusive hand-wavers who do everything short of licking the glass to tell you how grateful they are, and second being the people who staunchy refuse your offer. They know the only reason you are letting them pull in front of you is so that you can shoot them in the back of the head and steal their car. If they do that, with a living, breathing human in front of them offering them assistance, what are they going to be like when they can't even see the person? It's always easier to assume the worst. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness From: harvey andrews Date: 02 Apr 03 - 05:25 PM Seems to me everybody is ANGRY!!! Watching US TV talk shows people are always shouting, screaming..no considered debate. Is discussion dead? Same in the UK. I've never watched a soap in my life but I often catch the last minute or so before the next prog...and someone's always screaming in somebody's face.And now the people in the street are beginning to act like the actors on the screen because they think that's the way life has to be. last weeks "Question time" seemed to go the same way. It seems everybody goes from 0-10 with no numbers in between and it certainly has happened here on Mudcat since i started to join in...particularly about the war. Everybody has an opinion but it just doesn't seem, in general, as educated and reasoned as it once was. Then I watch Fox news and realise it probably never will be again! In Birmingham the BBC studios had a demo outside tonight protesting that the BBC was biased IN FAVOUR of the war. That balances the press allegations it's biased AGAINST. I don't think the Brits realise what they have in the Beeb at times like this...they should watch Fox news and beware the future. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness From: Bill D Date: 02 Apr 03 - 05:31 PM people have always been offended by something, whether it is the music & religion of the folks next door, or the body parts they choose to expose.... trouble is, it is so easy to SAY so now, and to compare notes and start lawsuits over it. TV shows like Jerry Springer encourage airing of stupid little private nastiness, and stories about narrow-minded silliness have been filler for news programs for several decades...now the WWW allows anyone to mount a soapbox to complain and harangue. ...and all of this simply adds fuel to the fire, showcasing and heightening events that might have died down 50 years ago. The world IS more complex and scary and and frustrating and contentious these days, because events happen, and get reported on and cause more 'happenings' at a rate that most of us are not capable of dealing with. ....We can't even count on what format our music will be recorded in next year, and we KNOW it will cost us money and time to change again. "Life is a toil, and love is a trouble, Beauty will fade and riches will flee. Pleasures they dwindle, and prices they double, And nothing is as I would wish it would be" ....and, as Albert's mother said after the lion ate him.."Someone must pay!" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness From: Kim C Date: 02 Apr 03 - 05:37 PM Don, is that like, some people would bitch if you hanged them with a new rope? ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness From: Jeri Date: 02 Apr 03 - 05:52 PM I wish we got BBC TV here. I remember watching it during the Iran hostage thing and the failed rescue attempt, and the news seemed more balanced than what we were getting from the US. Maybe it's not just being offended that's chic at the moment. Perhaps it's cruelty in general. I'm thinking of current TV shows in the US that embarrass, scare or insult people for entertainment. It's the modern equivalent of the colla...cole...that Roman thing with the lions and Christians and gladiators. Anybody ever get flipped off by a driver of a car with one of those "random acts of kindness" bumper stickers? As to Mudcat, yeah Elle. Everything here is in black and white, good or bad. Somebody we think might be foaming-at-the-mouth mad may really just be playing around. Someone else may seem like they're incredibly cruel or stupid or nuts, and they simply don't write well. Also, there isn't much forgiveness in this medium. You say something dumb, and it will linger in the database forever, even if it was just prompted by your mood and not your personality. Again, maybe it's just that I'm more sensitive to this sort of thing than I have been in the past. I remember my mom, who died in '92, quit watching most TV except 'nice' shows because she couldn't stand everyone yelling at each other - especially on the sitcoms (she was a sitcom junkie). At that time, I didn't really think it was a big deal, but it made me think. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness From: JenEllen Date: 02 Apr 03 - 06:14 PM Much agreed on the TV thing, Jeri. Have you heard of a show called SCARE TACTICS? Your mum would have been appalled. If I hadn't seen the ad for myself, I'd have never believed it. The premise is that 'friends' set up people to have the ever-living shit scared out of them. Not the typical "Boo!...Gotcha!... harharhar" stuff, the snippets they showed on the ad looked terrifying, with all of the prankees screaming, crying, or both. When did that become cool? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness From: Troll Date: 02 Apr 03 - 06:25 PM Any day now I expect to see a new show featuring gladitorial contests; not to the death you understand. Not at first anyway. troll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness From: Kim C Date: 02 Apr 03 - 06:35 PM Jeri, does your local PBS affiliate show BBC World News? I'm with you, troll. All this stuff is getting a little bit ridiculous. I mean, on Fear Factor, they've eaten animal dongs. (they were cooked, BTW...) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness From: GUEST Date: 02 Apr 03 - 06:40 PM I expect to see Running Man type shows soon....already half way there with this supposed wrestling.....and whatnot.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness From: GUEST Date: 02 Apr 03 - 06:59 PM "In a free country you have the right to be offended anytime and any place by anything, but you do not have the right to be taken seriously." Angus MacDonald |
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Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness From: Rapparee Date: 02 Apr 03 - 07:13 PM Several years ago I realized that blaming people who worked in my department was eating up a lot of time and generating a lot of bad feelings, which was then interfering with productivity. So I changed it and we decided to solve problems and not worry about blame. Worked like a charm. Oh, sure, there were some problems, and when someone was identified as a source of problems I had to deal with them. But overall I found it to be a great idea. Try it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 02 Apr 03 - 07:13 PM Sorting out the menaces in a test? I doubt if you could do it one hundred percent. But in England anyway the driving tests just checks on knowledge about the rules of the road, and ability to carry out a road test. You could be a homicidal maniac and pass, if you had the skills and the knowledge. I think it should be possible to devise ways of determining things like a tendency to road rage, and some level of common sense. If the upshot was that a fair number of people couldn't get driving licences, that seems fair enough to me. After all, not everyone gets to drive. There are a fair number of people who can't pass the present test, because they haven't got the ability to control a car safely, so they'd be a danger to themselves and others. People who can control their cars well enough, but who can't control themselves, would merely be in the same situation, for the same reason. And if they got offended at that, well it's true enough, as has been said, you can't avoid offending people all the time. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness From: GUEST,Jon Date: 02 Apr 03 - 07:17 PM I've got to disagree Jeri. I don't dispute that the "sue him" trend is more prelavent now as suggested by others but in my life on the Internet, I have seen no real changes in the time I have used Mudcat. People have always had "buttons", some more easily pressed than those of others. I think it is also fair to suggest that some have more "buttons" to press than others. I think it may be reasonable to suggest that the Internet has changed in usage over the years (before my time and after usenet) and that more and more people enter in to forums without the original objectives in mind and perhaps have their own objectives, e.g. these days, Mudcat can be looked upon as a political platform within the folk world, etc. I think Mudcat has at last reacted sensibly to these differences but that can not change people. By that I mean some will always want to push there agenda whether or not it is appropriate. I'd suggest the reason for that is just because it's there to be used that way and people want thier own platforms to speak. Jon |
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Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness From: catspaw49 Date: 02 Apr 03 - 07:21 PM Yeah, great thread Jeri........Fuck you. Spaw PS......I think that as our society has "advanced" and we have turned over more things to be handled by our government, a corporation, or maybe just the guy next door, we have become more and more powerless and less in control of our own lives. We then seize upon anything that helps us to verify our worth and our existence and the quickest way into ourselves is through anger. It's getting worse and the younger generation is affected even more than we are. There is also a feeling among most people that striking back is more fulfilling than laughing it off. We rarely stop and consider the end result we want to achieve but rather simply let the anger flow and strike back at the person who has "insulted" us. What's the point of that? Frankly, in the short term, it makes you feel good, but over the long haul nothing is gained or achieved. A yell out the window of your car was replaced by the finger which has now been replaced by a gun. Anger can only be detrimental to us emotionally and physically, but we have it....it's ours.....it's in our control. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 02 Apr 03 - 07:45 PM Laughing something off and expressing rage are in a way alternatve forms of the same reaction - note the way we bare our teeth when we laugh. Like chimps in a rage. Getting good and angry, when you feel entitled to feel that way, and are in a position to do something effective about it, can feel pretty good. (As opposed to getting cross and irritated and frustrated, which is a killer.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness From: John Hardly Date: 02 Apr 03 - 07:45 PM societies and communities are overcrowded with individuals desparate to feel significant. Those individuals can either... 1. Learn that communities cannot accomodate the selfish needs of the solipisitc and adjust accordingly. 2. Try to stand out and gain significance by doing good -- but this is so very hard, and lacks the promise of attention. 3. Be contrary. You'll usually stand out. Sadly, you'll be as unhappy as the phrases with which you find yourself forever starting conversations would imply. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness From: Jeri Date: 02 Apr 03 - 07:50 PM Rapiers, it IS a good way to solve problems and work together, and I've had the opportunity to work in that sort of environment. It doesn't work so well when most folks WANT to keep blaming people and things and there's no one to step in and say "Now, stop all that blaming stuff and talk about how to fix this!" I guess laying blame is a way to not have to deal directly with the issue, and may be more likely when folks don't think they can have any effect. Can't do anything about it - might as well be nasty to someone. I agree about people and their buttons, Jon. I just get the feeling that folks come here (and go elsewhere) just hoping someone will push a button, and may then believe loud and hurtful reactions are justified - that they're good, and noble, and worthy of expressing if not nurturing. In the Real World, what kindess exists seems to be dwindling. I don't know how it is anywhere else, but I remember how things were right after 9/11. Drivers were more polite and people in general seemed to give an impression of supporting one another. Now they yell, call each other names and talk AT people instead of TO them. It feels like we're divided, not by opposing views as we've always had them and always will, but an intolerance of any views foriegn to our own. People get offended, and act as though that justifies any extreme treatment of 'the other'. THAT's what really bothers me. It's not that people get mad - it's how they think that gives them a right to treat people. Am I on the wrong planet? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness From: NicoleC Date: 02 Apr 03 - 07:54 PM Hmmm. We do have televised gladitorial contests. It's called "professional sports," particularly boxing and football. We even treat sports figures the same way -- revered, sex objects who are expected to be rather stupid and otherwise incompetant. And of course, that old show American Gladiators. Or anyone watch extreme fighting lately? Or those shows with the killer machines? I think it's true people may get offended more easily. But I also think it's true that people are more offensive to begin with and manners are, like, SO out of style, you know? What passes for manners are generally a ridiculous set of customs in any culture, but it does require everyone to be paying attention to the way they treat each other. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness From: Jeri Date: 02 Apr 03 - 07:57 PM John Hardly, I agree it's hard to get any recognition for doing good things. I guess where someone does good or does bad depends a lot on whether they want to improve things and be proud of what they've done or just be noticed. Spaw...awww, shucks - thanks! Fuck you too! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness From: GUEST,Jon Date: 02 Apr 03 - 08:03 PM Yes Jeri, you are on the wrong planet. I know of no other that accepts our life form though. Some, like me have a little dream of a place called Heaven but I doubt I'd ever be worthy... A nice thought though... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness From: Bill D Date: 02 Apr 03 - 08:16 PM ...and overshadowing it all is *money* ...... what passes for value in this society has changed a lot in recent years. There are meta-skills and tricks in the manipulation of the money flow and deciding what gets rewarded. Professional athletes demand ever greater salaries, and the 'fun' of following sports is now an expensive hobby, and some resent it a lot.....People now have the idea that if they don't get what they want, or they are injured, they need to be compensated BIG TIME! ...and we all know what happens in people's heads when they feel the deck is stacked against them and they cannot win and keep losing ground... (like health insurance)....they get angry and want to hit something, or yell at someone. Remember those films 40-50 years ago about how technology was going to make life easier and reduce the work week and let us play happily in our copious spare time? And who remembers Alvin Toffler's "Future Shock"?....the boy weren't far wrong. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness From: Forum Lurker Date: 02 Apr 03 - 08:51 PM NicoleC-I'm not so sure manners are a good thing. They often let people say the "right" words, and assume that they have been polite, when they have been just as offensive as if they had used what are deemed obscenities. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness From: Ebbie Date: 02 Apr 03 - 09:21 PM I agree with Bill D and Spaw when they speak about rapid societal change. 'Future Shock' seemed extreme to me when I read and reread it a few decades ago, and I wrote a college paper doing my best to refute Toffler's thesis. I contended that humankind has always dealt successfully with higher technology, that a horse-drawn plow was a cultural advance over the digging stick, and an electric washing machine replacing a washboard was of tremendous significance. I'm no longer so sure that we are doing well at all. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness From: Barry Finn Date: 02 Apr 03 - 09:45 PM Hi Jeri, after this thread I'm gonna go get me a case of woolite & drink my way out of here. Just call me one of the orginial Baaa Boys. Ok, I'll quit this sheep shite. Barry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness From: Bobert Date: 02 Apr 03 - 09:52 PM Well, danged! I know I'm gettin' into this thread a little late but I'd just like to throw a few other thoughts into the soup: Not to be playing the *blame game* but these are a few of the folks/institutions that I blame. 1.The Japanese? (Why the Japanese, Bobert?) Well, they kicked but in the 80's with their better products and got the westerners all razed up to *compete* and so compete they did. 2.The *Western Corporations*. In competing with the Japanese, they took it to economic war levels as they pushed their labor force to new highs in production. 3.The Ad-men who sold the *western* society laborer ( more the US worker) a bunch of junk that he doesn't need but will spend a life time paying for because he thinks he needs it. Like how many $25,000 cars can a man own before he figures out that he doesn't own anything? 4.The government which makes decisions about spending like they own the presses that print the money. (Hey, wait, they do own those presses?) and then spend it with little or no regard for the tax payers who are out there working their brains out on Boss Hog's widget assembly lines. 5.Sports which they certainly aren't. Everything is about winning. So here we have a bunch of over-worked crazed folks riding from job to job in their Lexus's witha cell phone in one hand and a hand gun in the other, on their way to their kids soccer game, where their team had better win, then get back into the Lexus, get home after dark, crash after a few drinks and go at it agian the following day. Yeah, these aren't win-win times. These are not times when labor is appreciated. Or loyality. We got overworked, underpaid, underappreciated laborers, working their brains out to keep Boss Hog in hihg cotton anf they're collectively pissed off. And to make matters worse, we stick everyone in one big Skinner's box of metropolitan areas that desensitize people into specks of insignificance. That's my read on it... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness From: Jeri Date: 02 Apr 03 - 09:54 PM Bobert, you blame those guys for why people enjoy being offended? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness From: Mudlark Date: 02 Apr 03 - 10:34 PM I don't know about the rest of the planet, but I think the Western world has been gettng mixed messages for some time now, and I think it is driving people crazy. There is the message that "we deserve it," whatever "it" is, that we have an inherent right to use up most of the resources, buy gas guzzlers if that's what we want, etc. The other side of that message, often unconsciously felt, but powerful, I believe, is fear. We are aware, at some level, that we have what everybody else wants, and perhaps at an even deeper level fearful that not only may it be stolen but that we are unworthy to have it in the first place. There is the message that technology will save us, make life easier, etc., and in some ways it does. But most of us are steadily moving into a world in which we depend more and more heavily on things we understand less and less. It leaves us on shaky ground. When you get your water from a deep hole in the ground, heat with wood, and communicate by hollering at your neighbor, you may not be living the good life, but you understand the things your life depends on. Stores are crammed with largely irrelevant consumer goods, w/advertising to create a need for them. Acquiring stuff is a short term antidote to stress, but money is being concentrated in the hands of fewer and fewer, meaning most of us are being urged to buy what we can no longer afford. In the West we are all very tuned into various media...kids (and adults too) learn how to act by watching what their peers do in the movies and on TV. Trouble is, acting is exactly what is going on here, causing people to lose their grasp of personal authenticity. Humans don't, for the most part, do all that well with conflict and complexity. It's deeply disturbing to be told one thing but feel the opposite, especially if that opposite feeling is crawling around just below full consciousness. It makes people tetchious, edgy, and anger is a way to scratch the itch. At least that's what I think. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness From: Ebbie Date: 02 Apr 03 - 10:38 PM And I think you are right. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness From: Seamus Kennedy Date: 02 Apr 03 - 11:25 PM I don't wish to be repetitive, but I posted this over on the Eric Bogle "I Hate Wogs" thread, and I 'd just like to add his. Stop and think for a moment before re-acting. Is someone TRYING to be offensive? Are they seriously trying to be hurtful? I still do a lot of satire and irony in both my comedy patter and songs, and I get a raft of shit from people who obviously were not taught irony and satire in high-school English classes. It's no wonder Tom Lehrer is not performing any longer. Sometimes I get written complaints or e-mails, and I always respond to them asking if the writer had read any Dean Swift. Invariably they don't know who Swift was. The one song that I get dragged over the coals for regularly is Old McDonald's Deformed Farm in which I speculate about animals having human handicaps complete with "symptoms' and "effects,' stuttering, lisp, Tourette's Syndrome et al. I checked with several friends of mine who have the handicaps mentioned in the songs, and asked if they were offended or hurt. To a man they said no. But they're adults, and I can see where the mocking of a handicap might have an adverse effect on a child. So I don't do it when kids are in the audience. I figure that thinking adults can discern the difference. But, often I'm wrong. There are people in this world whose sole function is to go around being "offended" so they can get a little bit of attention. And frankly, I wish they'd turn all their attention on Catspaw.*BG* Seamus |
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Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness From: DougR Date: 02 Apr 03 - 11:47 PM Here's my read on it Jeri. I think you are right. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness From: GUEST,pdc Date: 03 Apr 03 - 01:19 AM For those of you who think that Mudcat is "black and white" and argumentative, even offensive, take heart. I switched to this forum (primarily for threads on the Iraq situation) from another one called "Capitol Grilling." Omigod, you wouldn't believe the vitriol, the insults, the cheap shots! Check it out; you'll be glad to come back here, which is comparatively civilized. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness From: Thomas the Rhymer Date: 03 Apr 03 - 02:28 AM I can't believe you would start a thread like this one... What were you thinking? Get a life! I'm sure you'd probably consider yourself a "sensitive male", and you probably read books and long to discuss the content too... There, how'd I do? I am amazed at how difficult it is to find a shred of common decency these days... Were all in this competitive reaction thing, where the rude comeback has taken the leadership role. I just don't relate to it well, and I find this 'trend' to be the single most hurdlesome encounter these days. It gets in the way of so much goodness, and nice people just go home saddened on a semi-regular basis. However, I reserve the right to 'deflect' mean people nuances... It is tough sometimes to deflect without 'reflecting', which tends to add fool to an already out of control fire... ;^) ttr |
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Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness From: Wolfgang Date: 03 Apr 03 - 04:57 AM Seeing that there is not a single post in here that could give me an excuse to claim being offended I think I better shouldn't post here at all. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness From: Jeri Date: 03 Apr 03 - 08:20 AM GUEST,pdc, thanks for that. It's good to be reminded there are worse places out there. It's not all that comforting, but it gives a bit of perspective on Mudcat. There are people who just don't get it - especially when it comes to irony, but there are those who miss the main point period, in favor of going after one word or idea that trips their trigger. You can explain to those who just don't understand. You'll always end up being the bad guy to those who don't want to understand. Thomas the Rhymer, I don't think I'd ever consider myself a sensitive MALE. I'm SO offended by that! Hmmph! Elle, I've seen the previews for Scare Tactics. My first thought was "how do they keep the people filming safe from the victims beating the crap out of them when they find out?" Then again, if I were being chased around by a guy in a bigfoot costume, I'm pretty sure I'd have a clue something was up. Seamus, yep. I don't know if people don't learn irony in school or whether the knowledge dies from lack of use once a kid gets out into the 'real world'. It's what openmindedness exists in society, the grace, that allows people to think "I can't understand why a person would say/sing that. Maybe there's something else going on." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness From: JenEllen Date: 03 Apr 03 - 10:27 AM Kevin, chimps also bare their teeth when they are frightened, uncertain, or uncomfortable. If it were any true comparison to humans, I think people would be 'smiling' a lot more than they do nowadays. (big grin with REAL humour attached) Another 'smiling' observation is that a LOT of time and money seems to be being spent on things to make your teeth 'perfectly white'--if you never smile, how's anyone ever going to know? ~Elle |
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Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 03 Apr 03 - 10:46 AM "...chimps also bare their teeth when they are frightened, uncertain, or uncomfortable" And so do we - and, as has been pointed out in this thread, it is when we are frightened, uncertain or uncomfortable that we are liable to get violent. But sometimes we can use humour and laughter to help pull us through. It's maybe a shame that our closest relatives are chimps, rather than orang-utans or gorillas, who seem to have less volatile temperaments, from what I've heard. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness From: Troll Date: 03 Apr 03 - 10:56 AM I think that we have evolved (DEvolved?) a society where no is ever to blame, where everything that happens is always someone elses fault, and where everyone seems to think that THEY DESERVE to be happy and BY G-D! someone had better get their ASS in GEAR and make it HAPPEN. And, of course, if it can be explained, it can be excused. "Your Honor, my client may have chopped three of his co-workers up into hamburger meat but he was abused as a child. His Mother ignored him at times to care for her other six children and his Father yelled at him several times during his traumatic childhood. He was brooding on this when one of his co-workers told him to wake up and start 'doing his share' and something just 'snapped'. We request that all charges be dropped and that he be given a medical retirement from Burger Doodle with full benefits. It is obvious that he was not responsible for what he did." And no one ever mentions the hundred thousand people who had childhoods just as bad ,or worse, than our young miscreant -excuse me, alleged miscreant- and lead productive, law abiding lives. But to explain it is to excuse it. Everyone is a victim and so everyone is perpetually offended. I recall a cartoon from many years ago in Playboy.( I only read it for the cartoons, Honest!) This Lounge Lizzard type is sitting in a lawyers office and he says,"So I'm invited to this party. The Drinks were bar booze, the food was mediocre and the conversation forgettable. Now, do I have gounds for a lawsuit or don't I." troll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness From: Jeri Date: 03 Apr 03 - 11:18 AM Anybody else see the inherent irony in this thread? No, I didn't start it to be ironic, I was serious. But upon further thought, "I am SO pissed off at all these people that are angry all the time" is pretty funny. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness From: catspaw49 Date: 03 Apr 03 - 11:30 AM LOL.....nah Jeri, yain't alone............ I also keep thinking of that Steve Martin line in Roxanne where he says, "Oh irony? No, we don't have that here. People here ski topless while smoking dope so irony isn't too big. The last time anyone used irony here was 1982 when I was the only practitioner of it and I stopped because everyone just stared at me." Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness From: Rick Fielding Date: 03 Apr 03 - 11:31 AM All right Jeri (or anyone else) I have a question for you. Suppose you like to use irony and humour in your everyday speech? It's just a style......perhaps even a defence against the overwhelming 'dumbing-down' of everything around you. Now in public, this works.....probably around seventy percent of the time. You know....that kind of 'supermarket banter' that can get a smile out of people who no longer feel their jobs (hence their lives) count for anything. Amongst your (my) friends, the percentage is much higher....probably 90 percent. Yes, I know a LOT of folks and I DO have to watch myself around 10 percent or so, of them. They simply don't have a wide or deep enough experience to appreciate irony. Fair enough. Those that think I'm an incomprehensible asshole, would hopefully stop coming around after a while. BUT....BUT....on the net (Mudcat) it seems that verrry few folks understand irony at all. I've said things that were positively "Python-esque" in their ridiculousness, and had miffed PMs from mainstream Mudcatters, (people whom I've communicated with for quite a while) who simply didn't have a clue that I wasn't being serious. Is it mostly not seeing a FACIAL EXPRESSION? Someone said that without that (sort of) wink, far fewer people would get ANYONE'S jokes. Veteran internet users (and I ain't one of them) MUST have dealt with this, and come up with solutions in the past. I've started putting "ha ha!" after certain sentences, but that makes me wanna puke. It's like explaining a joke. I know that some folks say something like "grn", which may mean "grin" I guess, but that's almost as bad. Hmmmmm, like a lot of times, just writing something down seems to answer yer own questions. Perhaps there IS no way to alert people to written humour. I gather those "facial expressions" are crucial". *************************************************************** By the way....on a completely different subject: Joan Baez is coming to town, and the paper said that in every concert she's done this month, people (from all parts of the audience) are getting up and leaving......BECAUSE SHE'S BEEN CRITICAL OF BUSH AND THE WAR!! Who on earth did these people think they were going to see? Yanni, Celine Dion? Now I find this news story screamingly hysterical. So is it just me? Great thread Jer Rick |
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Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness From: Steve-o Date: 03 Apr 03 - 11:50 AM Wonderful thread, Jeri. As the ever-wise Dave Barry has said, "No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously". We are developing a nation of whiners...it comes with having it too easy, having too much, and valuing fewer of the important things. Also, I think, we seem to LISTEN to everybody now, and somehow give them credence, whereas in the past we often would take the time to evaluate (which is now disparagingly called "judging"). As Arlo so wisely ovserved, "America is not the only country that can find out things about the last guy, but it's the only country that would take time for that guy. Other countries would say, 'He's the last guy- screw him!'" At least here at the Mudcat, we should learn to ignore the whiners. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 03 Apr 03 - 11:57 AM "It's not my fault" applies every bit as strongly when it's management and so forth trying to lay off the blame for their errors on the people who get injured as a consequence. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness From: GUEST,Jon Date: 03 Apr 03 - 12:06 PM Last time I touched on that subject was on a crossposted topic to rec.music.folk and rec.music.filk following my usage of the wink ;-) being missed. Here is most of one reply: Jon Freeman wrote: I don't agree BTW. I think that without facial expressions and particularly when dealing with an "audience" containing many you don't "know", that some indication whether *grin* or the emoticon is needed but I also believe that people should try to recognise such indications and give a little thought before diving in. That's not to suggest that I'm infalible - I've managed to missread a post and dived in responding to what I'd read rather than what was said on more than one occasion. Jon |
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Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness From: GUEST,Casual Observer Date: 03 Apr 03 - 12:54 PM Emoticons. Hmm. What did people do for many years when they used to write letters with pen and paper? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness From: Gareth Date: 03 Apr 03 - 12:59 PM Actually they used the psudonym (SP) "discusseded of Tondbridge Wells" With appologies to any 'Catters from that part of Kent (UK) Gareth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness From: GUEST,Jon Date: 03 Apr 03 - 01:04 PM Casual Observer, When people write with pen and paper, they know who they are addressing and write accordingly. With Internet forums and newsgroups, one is putting a message out to an unknown audience. One could argue that in those circumstances, one should always play safe and avoid anything such as irony on the basis that it might be missundertood but I believe that life would become very dull and boring without these things. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness From: Jeri Date: 03 Apr 03 - 01:24 PM Rick, to answer your question, yes! Except for when you're driving west on Thursdays, and then the answer would be 'seven'. My standard reaction in cases when I'm not sure if a statement's made ironically is to play along and respond literally. Sometimes I escalate the irony to see what happens. You don't hurt anyone's feelings by not taking them seriously, but if they DID mean to be ironic, I can have the same claim of "you didn't get it" that they have. It's a wimp's way, but it's mine. Casual Observer, I believe using irony wouldn't have been much of a problem in letters because people generally wrote to people they knew. They'd know what to expect. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness From: harvey andrews Date: 03 Apr 03 - 01:47 PM Also Rick, tone of voice as well as facial expression is a primary tool in irony, just a little more inflection on a word....like "Oh really!" compared to "Oh, really?" As to the Baez audience...they're beyond irony obviously. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness From: GUEST,Casual Observer Date: 03 Apr 03 - 02:06 PM What about writing a Letter to the Editor for publication in a newspaper? What about writing a letter of inquiry to someone you've never met? People are not always personally acquainted with the recipients of their letters. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness From: Jeri Date: 03 Apr 03 - 04:14 PM I wouldn't think most people would use irony in letters they wrote directly to someone they didn't know. I could be wrong though. I'm fairly sure irony in editorials, articles and other forms of public writing was occasionally taken literally. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness From: GUEST,Casual Obsever Date: 03 Apr 03 - 04:59 PM If a reader can't take a joke, how is that the writer's fault? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness From: catspaw49 Date: 03 Apr 03 - 05:02 PM Basically C-O, we have no idea and you're probably right. Sorry if we offended you. Have a nice day. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness From: Jeri Date: 03 Apr 03 - 05:07 PM Casual Observer, I don't believe it is the writer's fault. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness From: Kim C Date: 03 Apr 03 - 05:39 PM Didn't people get all mad at Jonathan Swift when he suggested that they start eating children to reduce the population? I suppose it's impossible for any one person to communicate so perfectly, so that EVERYONE reading his/her words can understand them. It's just part of the human condition. Sure, be offended when there's really something important to be offended about. Otherwise, get irritated for a minute if you must, then go grab some coffee and get on with your day. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 03 Apr 03 - 07:02 PM Irony tends to be the default mode for people writi g from teh East side of the Atlantic. It is when we actually mean what we say that we are likely to feel it necessary to point that out, rather than the other way round. And I mean that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness From: Jeri Date: 03 Apr 03 - 07:23 PM The only way to ALMOST ensure ALMOST no one's offended by humor is to dumb everything down. I'd hate to see that happen because I really enjoy wit, and one of the things I love most about this place would be gone. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness From: John Hardly Date: 03 Apr 03 - 08:25 PM I hate ironing. I always seem to press more wrinkles IN that out. And it's hot. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness From: GUEST,Jon Date: 03 Apr 03 - 08:34 PM That one reminds me of a post on rmc years ago. Possibly not original but have just looked it up to refresh my memory. Someone posted: "Not very good with irony, are you?" and a reply was: "Sure she is. That's the hot piece of metally your flatten out your shirties with." Jon |
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Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness From: Rick Fielding Date: 03 Apr 03 - 08:59 PM Hmmmmmmm...OK, I give up. Time to dumb myself down! I LOVE: Adam Sandler J Lo Mel Gibson Singer songwriters who let me feel their pain (especially grrlll ones under twenty three) Reality shows Short phrases from Dubya Ovation guitars Kaiser capos Halle Berry "Friends" Tommy Franks' haircut |
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Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness From: Joe Offer Date: 03 Apr 03 - 10:38 PM Well, I dunno. I think I'm one of those writers who just can't do irony, and I think it's probably my fault. I don't know why. Rick, can you give me irony lessons? I'd ask Spaw, but I'm afraid of how I'd turn out. And yes, I think the blame goes to the writer. Being one of those writers, I must say I'm sorry. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 04 Apr 03 - 06:52 AM Of course irony works both ways, and sometimes fails to work. People are more likely to miss if when it, on the face of it, says something favourable. For example if you sid that, with all their faults, you have to admit that Bush is a likable guy, and that Blair's humble sincerity is beyond question...Well there are some people who'd take that at face value. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness From: GUEST,Raedwulf Date: 04 Apr 03 - 08:26 AM Simple rules: 1) If you are not trying to offend me, there is nothing for me to be offended at. 2) If you *are* trying to offend me... I ain't going to give you the satisfaction! In fact, I'll probably laugh at you instead, because you're an asshole. So either way, I don't get offended. Simple, innit? *g* It's an interesting question, Jeri, but it should be pointed out that a lot of people here are speaking of anger and offense as practically the same. In my book, they're not. No way. It takes a fair amount to get me angry. It usually boils down to someone's blind stupidity. I've fired off a few stiff posts at people who just won't/don't/can't read what is put in front of them. But that's anger borne of frustration, not because I'm offended by their stupidity, let alone p-o-v. Offence can lead to anger, but it can also lead to sadness, pity, & a variety of other emotions. Just the same as anger doesn't have to be caused by offence. I get narked sometimes - I can't remember the last time I got offended. Perhaps I'm being pedantic here, & making an over subtle distinction, but words are important. Number of times I've seen an argument because one word means two different things to two different people, & neither realises... {rollseyes} Words are important! So what exactly were you getting at, when you said "culture of offendedness", Jeri? To me, a lot of what's been said is very much tangential to what I understand from the phrase (not that I'm knocking the discussion! *g*). If it's what I understood, then the simple application of rules 1 & 2 above would save a hell of a lot of unpleasantness in the world. Now {snarls} how the hell do we drum that into all the blockheads of the world???!!! ;-) *ggg* |
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Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness From: Rapparee Date: 04 Apr 03 - 08:30 AM Bush's mother loves him, and so (probably) does his wife. I don't know enough about Blair to know if anyone loves *him*. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness From: John Hardly Date: 04 Apr 03 - 11:28 AM I LOVE: Adam Sandler J Lo Mel Gibson Singer songwriters who let me feel their pain (especially grrlll ones under twenty three) Reality shows Short phrases from Dubya Ovation guitars Kaiser capos Halle Berry "Friends" Tommy Franks' haircut ...and little baby ducks... ...and ice cream. And I love you too. -Tom T. Hall (lyricist extrordinaire) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 04 Apr 03 - 12:04 PM Raedwulf's rule works well enough when what's being said might offend you. It's a bit more complicated when what's said or done is calculated to hurt someone else, and if you just grin along or hold your tongue you feel you'd be colluding in that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness From: Rick Fielding Date: 04 Apr 03 - 12:39 PM John...Why I oughttta!! You were just waiting to be offended weren't you? Or was it the 'culture' you were lyin' in wait for? On the other hand, I've just realized that I don't REALLY know J Lo. Heather says she has a huge bum, and sings a song on Much music that goes: "I usta have a little, now I have a lot, But I'm still Jenny, Jenny from da block. Being a fan of good poetry, I'll have to give this gal another chance. Substitute "Tom T Hall" for her name. Rick |
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Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness From: harpgirl Date: 04 Apr 03 - 01:00 PM ...gee whiz, Jeri...you sure did get a lot of people to play "ain't it awful" with you!!!! LOL harpy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness From: *daylia* Date: 04 Apr 03 - 01:37 PM Ah, you people are a mammering, folley-fallen ratsbane! And that's not even taking into account the dankis, guts-griping strumpets among you! Ya gleeking, fly-bitten moldwarps! ;) For the Shakespearean insult generator that generated those, click here :) daylia |
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Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness From: leprechaun Date: 04 Apr 03 - 01:41 PM Steve Martin is my hero. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness From: Jeri Date: 04 Apr 03 - 02:02 PM Here's the original Bitching and whining And pissing and moaning Screaming and snorting Till my mouth is foaming Snotty name-calling And sarcastic zings These are a few of my favorite things When the dog bites When the bee stings Then it's not so bad They're just some more of my favorite things That it's you and not me makes me glad Harpy, funny, ain't it? "Oh, lets have a complaint thread about people complaining too much." At least I try to save my offendedness for the things that really bug me. If I did it too much, I'd be like the little boy who cried "asshole!" once too often until no one paid attention to him. (Of course that wouldn't happen here.) Must go off to find the snow thread. I hate snow. I'm big-time offended by snow, and I think we oughta drop about a gazillion tons of it on Saddam. "Here's a friggin' chemical for ya - it's called H2O!!!" |