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Seacht nDolas na Maighdine Muire - translation?

DigiTrad:
THE SEVEN JOYS OF MARY
THE SEVEN JOYS OF MARY (2)


Related threads:
Lyr Req: Seacht Suailci na Maighdine Muire (19)
Parody: 7 Joys of Oregon (12)
Lyr Req: Seven Rejoices of Mary (18)
(origins) Origins: The Seven Joys (28)
Lyr Add: Nine Joys of Mary (4)


In Mudcat MIDIs:
Seacht nDolas Na Maighdine Muire
Seven Sorrows of Mary


GUEST,Kristine Robin 04 Apr 03 - 12:50 PM
Sorcha 04 Apr 03 - 12:59 PM
Willa 04 Apr 03 - 02:08 PM
Willa 04 Apr 03 - 02:12 PM
Brían 04 Apr 03 - 05:01 PM
GUEST,Kristine 04 Apr 03 - 06:01 PM
Brían 04 Apr 03 - 06:11 PM
IvanB 04 Apr 03 - 07:57 PM
GUEST,Brían 05 Apr 03 - 09:48 AM
GUEST,Kristine 05 Apr 03 - 10:19 AM
George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca 05 Apr 03 - 10:32 AM
Brían 05 Apr 03 - 06:58 PM
GUEST,Kristine 05 Apr 03 - 08:16 PM
Brían 06 Apr 03 - 07:56 PM
GUEST,Philippa 07 Apr 03 - 11:24 AM
GUEST,JTT 08 Apr 03 - 11:30 AM
Felipa 18 Apr 03 - 02:58 PM
GUEST,Philippa 24 Apr 03 - 09:00 AM
GUEST,Philippa 24 Apr 03 - 09:11 AM
GUEST,Philipa 24 Apr 03 - 09:19 AM
GUEST,Philippa 06 May 03 - 06:14 AM
MMario 07 May 03 - 11:01 AM
Felipa 07 May 03 - 05:43 PM
MMario 12 May 03 - 09:34 PM
GUEST 05 Mar 05 - 06:21 PM
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Subject: ADD: SEACHT NDOLAS NA MAIGHDINE MUIRRE
From: GUEST,Kristine Robin
Date: 04 Apr 03 - 12:50 PM

Hi, I'm looking for the translation, history, and copyright info on the following song. I have been to a number of historical gaelic sites, and have had no luck finding this song.

SEACHT NDOLAS NA MAIGHDINE MUIRRE
(Seven Sorrows of Mary)

An chead dolas do bhi ar an maighdean
Nu air a toiriodh a leanbh
Caipini dubha air, 's na Guidaigh a ghreadadh


An triu dolas do bhi ar an Maighdean
Nu air a toiriodh a leanbh
E ar an grois cheasta, 's na tairni geara a ghearradh

CHORUS:

        Aililiu o Iosa, ailiui is tu mo leanbh
        Aililiu o Iosa, is tu ri geal na bhFlaitheas



An ceathru dolas do bhi ar an Maighdean
Nu air a toiriodh a leanbh
E ar chrann na croise ag, gail na ngrasta dar n-anam

CHORUS:

An seu dolas do bhi ar an Maighdean
Nu air a toiriodh a leanbh
E 'na hucht gleigeal 's e sinte fuar marbh

CHORUS:


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Subject: RE: Need translation for gaelic song
From: Sorcha
Date: 04 Apr 03 - 12:59 PM

No luck. Aine's place, here, has 7 Joys in English, but not 7 Sorrows. Calling Phillipa!


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Subject: RE: Need translation for gaelic song
From: Willa
Date: 04 Apr 03 - 02:08 PM

Try this site, Kristine. it looks hopeful.http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=nd


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Subject: RE: Need translation for gaelic song
From: Willa
Date: 04 Apr 03 - 02:12 PM

Oops! that is the wrong link. I'll try again.

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=ndolas+na+maighdine&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&meta=


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Subject: RE: Need translation for gaelic song
From: Brían
Date: 04 Apr 03 - 05:01 PM

The first sorrow the Virgin was
To wake her child
A black cap on him and the Jews beating him

The third sorrow the Virgin had
Was to wake her child
He on the cross suffering
And the nails cutting him

Aililiu o Jesus, ailiui you are my child
Aililiu o Jesus, you are the Bright King of Heaven

The fourth sorrow the Virgin had
Was when she waked her child
He on the Tree of the Cross and
(His soul going to grace)?-don't know what gail is

The sixth sorrow the Virgin had
Was to wake her child
He in the Bright Bosom stretched out cold and dead.

Maybe Declan or Phillipa could make more sense out of it. It is an Irish language version of a song known all over.

Brían


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Subject: RE: Need translation for gaelic song
From: GUEST,Kristine
Date: 04 Apr 03 - 06:01 PM

Oh, thank you,thank you,thank you!!! Would you know where I could find some history on the song?


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Subject: RE: Need translation for gaelic song
From: Brían
Date: 04 Apr 03 - 06:11 PM

I'm looking around. I'm hoping some of our other "experts" will come around.

I may have a more complete version in a prayer book.

Brían


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Subject: RE: Need translation for gaelic song
From: IvanB
Date: 04 Apr 03 - 07:57 PM

FROM THE LINER NOTES TO "Celtic Requiem" by Mary McLaughlin & William Coulter:

The Virgin Mary's first sorrow
when her child was persecuted
His knee-caps black and the Jews beating him.
The Virgin Mary's second sorrow
when her child was persecuted
A rough shirt of horsehair on his back and
his skin being torn.

Chorus:
Alleluia Jesus, alleluia you are my child
Alleluia Jesus, you are the bright King of Heaven.

The Virgin Mary's third sorrow
when her child was persecuted
He crucified on the cross and
the sharp nails cutting him.
The Virgin Mary's fourth sorrow
when her child was persecuted
He on the cross getting grace for our souls.

The Virgin Mary's fifth sorrow
when her child was persecuted
His head on the top of a spike shedding his blood.
The Virgin Mary's sixth sorrow
when her child was persecuted
He stretched cold and dead on her pure white breast.

The Virgin Mary's seventh sorrow
when her child was persecuted
He stretched in the grave with the slabs across him.

Translation by Eamonn O Donaill


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Subject: RE: Need translation for gaelic song
From: GUEST,Brían
Date: 05 Apr 03 - 09:48 AM

IvanB seems to have a pretty good translation of the version that I
found in Ár bPaidreacha Dúchais. It was taken from a collection of Searloit(Charlotte) Ní Dheisigh called, Paidreacha na nDaoine. It was collected in Munster. There is an English translation called Prayers of the Gael translated by R. MacCrocaigh.

I'm sorry, but there's no date for this. a caipíní dubh might be a cap worn by the executed.

Brían


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Subject: RE: Need translation for gaelic song
From: GUEST,Kristine
Date: 05 Apr 03 - 10:19 AM

Thank you once again. I just love Mudcat Cafe! You can bring up the most obscure songs - and somebody knows about it!!!


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Subject: RE: Need translation for gaelic song
From: George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca
Date: 05 Apr 03 - 10:32 AM

According to http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14151b.htm the Seven Sorrows dates back to the 13th century, 1239 to be specific. This is from the Catholic Encyclopedia.


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Subject: RE: Need translation for gaelic song
From: Brían
Date: 05 Apr 03 - 06:58 PM

Thank you, George. BTW, caipíní is plural for cap. It probably does refer to kneecap.

Brían


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Subject: RE: Need translation for gaelic song
From: GUEST,Kristine
Date: 05 Apr 03 - 08:16 PM

Ok, I'm a happy camper! Thank you once again.


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Subject: RE: Need translation for gaelic song
From: Brían
Date: 06 Apr 03 - 07:56 PM

I am a little under the weather, Kristine, but I could add the full Gaelic text in a couple of days if you like. Can anyone add a melody?

Brían


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Subject: RE: Seacht nDolas na Maighdine Muire
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 07 Apr 03 - 11:24 AM

there are a number of recordings available. Sorcha Ní Ghuairim is well worth listening to if you are interested in sean-nós singing. Nóirín Ní Riain has recorded Seach nDólas na Maighdine Muire, so perhaps it is also in her songbook - in which case sheet music will be available.

On the internet I found references a Hector Zazou album "lights in the dark" with several singers, with Lasairfhiona Ní Chonaola,Breda Mayock and Katie McMahon representing Ireland. Also Antaine Ó Faracháin sings this song on the compilation "Where Linnets Sing" (and he sang it on stage at the Inishowen traditional singers weekend last month)


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Subject: RE: Need translation for gaelic song
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 08 Apr 03 - 11:30 AM

To be "ar toraiodh" something means to be on its track, or hunting for it - like Toraiodh Diarmuid agus Grainne - the Pursuit of Diarmuid and Grainne. So I think the suggestion is that Mary's first sign of her child as she looked for him was x, then y, then z....


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Seacht nDolas na Maighdine Mhuire
From: Felipa
Date: 18 Apr 03 - 02:58 PM

You might also be interested in seacht suailce na Maighdine Muire

Seacht nDólás na Maighdine Muire is indeed in Nóirín Ní Riain's book Stór Amhrán, published by Mercier. I have to get it from the library and it may be another week before I sent the tune to MMario for transcription. She includes some ornatmentation, which might complicate making an abc (Alison had problems transposing another song from that book).


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Subject: Lyr Add: SEACHT nDÓLÁS NA MAIGHDINE MUIRE
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 09:00 AM

SEACHT nDÓLÁS NA MAIGHDINE MUIRE
(Seven Sorrows of Mary)

An chéad dólás do bhí ar an Mhaighdean
Nuair a tóiríodh a Leanbh
Caipíní dubha air, 's na Giúdaigh á ghreadadh

Luinneóg (refrain):
       Ailliliú, o Iosa, ailliliú is tú mo Leanbh
       Ailliliú ó Iosa, is tú Rí geal na bhFlaitheas

An dara dólás do bhí ar an Mhaighdean nuiar a tóiríodh a Leanbh
Léine gárbh róin air, 's a chraiceann a stracadh.
Ailliliú …

An triú dólás do bhí ar an Mhaighdean
Nuair a tóiríodh a Leanbh
Á ar an gcrois chéasta, 's na tairní géara á ghearradh
Ailliliú …

An ceathru dólás do bhí ar an Mhaighdean
Nuair a tóiríodh a Leanbh
É ar chrann* na croise ag fáil na ngrásta dár n-anam
Ailliliú …

An cúigiú dólás do bhí ar an Mhaighdean
Nuair a tóiríodh a Leanbh
A cheann ar bharr spíce ag tabhairt a chuid fola
Ailliliú …

An séú dólás do bhí ar an Mhaighdean
Nuair a tóiríodh a Leanbh
É 'na hucht gléigeal 's é sínte fuar marbh
Ailliliú …

An seachtú dólás do bhí ar an Mhaighdean
Nuair a tóiríodh a Leanbh
É sínte san uaigh 's na leaca air trasna.
Ailliliú …

(*Ní Riain has "cheann", but "chrann" makes sense)
From Nóirin Ní Riain,Stór Amhrán. Cork: Mercier, 1988
Tune is included in the book and Nóirin Ní Riain is also one of the singers who has made sound recordings of this song.

"tóiríodh a leanbh" means when her child was chased or hunted, Ní Riain translates this as "when her Child was falsely accused"; other than that Brían's translation fine, but incomplete (as were the Irish verses)

"The first sorrow that was on the Virgin when her Child was falsely accused
Black caps on him and the Jews beating him"

Ailliliú o Jesus, allelujah you are my child
Ailliliú Jesus, you are the Bright King of Heaven

second sorrow the Virgin had –A rough shirt of horsehair on him and his skin being torn (because of the word "róin", I would have translated this as a rough sealskin shirt)

3rd sorrow He on the cross of torture And the sharp nails cutting him

fourth sorrow the Virgin had … He on the Tree of the Cross obtaining graces for our souls

fifth sorrow …his head on the point of a spike, pouring out its blood

The sixth sorrow the Virgin had … he being on her beautiful bright lap (Brian's "bosom" would be okay also) laid out cold and dead.

The seventh sorrow …he lying in the grave and the flagstones laid across him


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Subject: RE: corrections to Gaelic song
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 09:11 AM

2nd verse:
"nuiar" should read "nuair" ("nu air" was never right; this word for "when" comes from "an uair", the time/hour [that])

3rd verse: "Á ar an gcrois chéasta" should read "É ar an gcrois chéasta","É" (E/) not "Á ", and I think "him [being] tortured on the cross" is a more accurate translation, but really makes little difference to the sense of the line

4th verse, add an accent mark on the "u" in ceathrú

I hope that's all!


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Subject: RE: seven dolours of Mary
From: GUEST,Philipa
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 09:19 AM

these are not the same sorrows as given in the Catholic Encylopedia (thanks for the link, George)
"seven dolours of Mary (according to the responsories of Matins:
the sorrow
- at the prophecy of Simeon;
- at the flight into Egypt;
- having lost the Holy Child at Jerusalem;
- meeting Jesus on his way to Calvary;
- standing at the foot of the Cross;
- Jesus being taken from the Cross;
- at the burial of Christ."


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Subject: RE: Seacht nDólás na Maighdine Muire
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 06 May 03 - 06:14 AM

note that JoeO has renamed this thread from the overly general title "Need translation for gaelic song"


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Subject: RE: Seacht nDolas na Maighdine Muire - translation?
From: MMario
Date: 07 May 03 - 11:01 AM

I'm hoping this converts okay. No time signature on the music, nor bar lines other then to seperate verse and chorus.


X:1
T:Seacht nDolas Na Maighdine Muire
N:Nóirín Ní Riain, "Stór Amhrán", Cork: Mercier, 1988
N:graphic of music sent by philippa
Q:1/4=74
I:abc2nwc
L:1/8
K:Eb
G/2 G3/2 B/2 e3/2 e/2 e2e7/4 f/4 e2G2
w:An chéad dól-ás do bhí ar an Mhaigh-dean
G3/2 B/2 (3d2e2(f e/2 d/2) e/2 e3/2- e2(_d3/2 c/2) _d2c2
w:Nuair a tóir-íodh a__ Lean-bh_Caip_-ín-í
(B3/2 G/2) (A3/2 B/2-) B/2 c B/2 G/2 G3/2- G/2 (F E/2) E/2 E3/2-E2|
w:dubha_ air,__ 's na Giúd-aigh_ á_ ghread-adh_
E7/4 F/4 A2 (3(G3/2 A/4 G/4) F2E2G7/4 A/4 (3c2d2(e e/2 d/2)
w:Ail-lil-iú, o__ Ios-a, ail-lil-iú 's~tú mo__
e/2 e3/2- e/2 _d c/2 (_d3/2 e/4 d/4 c2)(B3/2 G/2) (3A2B2(c3/2 B/2)
w:Lean-bh_Ail-lil-iú___ ó_ Ios-a, 's tú
G/2 G3/2- G/2 (F E/2) E/2 E3/2- E3/2
w:Rí geal_ na_ bhFlaith-eas_


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Subject: RE: Seacht nDolas na Maighdine Muire - tune
From: Felipa
Date: 07 May 03 - 05:43 PM

The songs and tunes in Stór Amhrán come from the repetoire of Pilib Ó Laoghaire, a singer from Cork who collected many of his songs in the Déise Gaeltacht of Waterford.

Nóirín Ní Riain includes "Notes on the method of transcription used", which starts out as follows:
"The use of bar lines implies a system of accentuation which is not applicable to most of the music transcribed in this book. Instead, one will find that the natural accentuation of the words is mirrored inthe thythmic flow of the music. In many cases, in fact,the rhythm of the words is the rhythm of the music.

"I feel therefore that the use of bar lines would cause the reader to overemphasise the natural accents. Accentuation is more a matter of duration than emphasis by an increase in volume.

"Another problem which faces the transcriber of sean-nós singing is the impositon of regular beats on the music...."

Ossian Publications of Cork produced a tape to accompany the book. I don't know whether this tape is still available.


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Subject: RE: Seacht nDolas na Maighdine Muire - translation?
From: MMario
Date: 12 May 03 - 09:34 PM

midi posted


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Subject: RE: Seacht nDolas na Maighdine Muire - translation
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 06:21 PM

Another recorded version of this old hymn is found onthe vinyl album "Farewell but whenever" (Gael Linn CEF 088) 1981
by Treasa O'Driscoll

Chris Crilly


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