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BS: US does NOT kill journalists...
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Subject: BS: US does NOT kill journalists... From: InOBU Date: 08 Apr 03 - 10:30 PM Press comfrence: BBC... Today, you blew up El Jazeer's office, shot a news crew... and fired on the Palistine Hotel where the press is staying.. do you target the Press Col Cramp: No. There was fire coming from the lobby of the hotel. NBC. Our corisponents say there was not fire from the loby Col Cramp, I mispoke, the loby was on fire, we did not know the hotel was the hotel, our tank driver had his map upsidedown... CNN There is a huge sign on the roof saying Hotel Palistine Col. Cramp... Oh, that Hotel Palistine, the one with the terrorists in it... CNN You mean Journalists... Col Cramp, No, under the Patriot Act, we send a JAG officer along with every unit, to revoke the press credentials of anyone in the area before we open fire. Cheers Larry |
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Subject: RE: BS: US does NOT kill journalists... From: Amos Date: 08 Apr 03 - 11:01 PM Larry: Ya know I love and respect you, man. The fog of war often proves lethal to bystanders. It is awful. But I am confident it was not intentional. Attributing it to a general is a little too easy. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: US does NOT kill journalists... From: Little Hawk Date: 08 Apr 03 - 11:24 PM Well, maybe not, but they do kill heads of state. Allende comes to mind. They have tried on some occasions in the past to kill Castro. And they are making every effort now to kill Saddam. It's a peculiar way for a supposedly lawful society to operate, I think, assassinating heads of state. They may also have killed one of their own, through a certain governmental agency, back in 1963. Saddam is reported to have tried to kill Bush the Elder once. But that, of course, is because Saddam is evil. Evil people do things like that, don't they? Hmmmm.... - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: US does NOT kill journalists... From: Amos Date: 08 Apr 03 - 11:29 PM Yes, LH, evil people do things like that. War is among the evilest of the facts of life. Once you're in one, of course, that becomes somewhat academic until you get out of it. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: US does NOT kill journalists... From: mack/misophist Date: 09 Apr 03 - 12:01 AM My belief? Although the brass might be happy to see reporters killed, I really don't believe an ordinary tank gunner would do that on purpose. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US does NOT kill journalists... From: Troll Date: 09 Apr 03 - 12:28 AM I don't believe that there has been a war yet in which journalists did NOT get killed. When you insert yourself into a war zone, you take your life in your own hands. War zones are dangerous places and people die in them. And some of those people are journalists. Anyone who deliberately places themselves in harms way, had better be aware that they can be killed, non-combatent or no. I wonder how many journalists get killed every year right here in the US, just covering routine news assignments? troll |
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Subject: RE: BS: US does NOT kill journalists... From: GUEST,Martha Date: 09 Apr 03 - 01:22 AM Whether or not it was deliberate, it was another incident of American "friendly fire" taking out non-combatants, or combatants on the same side. Cowboy psychology. They fire freely at anything that moves. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US does NOT kill journalists... From: DougR Date: 09 Apr 03 - 02:35 AM Reports are that the Iraqi regime designates WHERE the press people may stay. That hotel was the designated one. So what does the regime do? They have snipers on the upper floors of the hotel killing our service men. So what are they supposed to do? Not fire back? When are you folks going to admit that the Iraqi regime is to blame for this mess? (I know. Foolish question) DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: US does NOT kill journalists... From: Mark Cohen Date: 09 Apr 03 - 04:01 AM This is part of the account from Reuters: "A tank was receiving small arms fire and RPG fire from the hotel and engaged the target with one tank round," General Buford Blount, commander of the U.S. 3rd Infantry Division in Baghdad, told Reuters on the outskirts of Baghdad. Central Command, the U.S. war headquarters in the Gulf state of Qatar, said forces received "significant enemy fire" from the hotel and returned fire in self-defense. Reporters at the scene disputed this account. "I never heard a single shot coming from any of the area around here, certainly not from the hotel," British Sky television's correspondent David Chater said. "In all the three weeks I have worked from this hotel I have not heard a single shot fired from here and I have not seen a single armed person enter the hotel," Swiss television correspondent Ulrich Tilgner said in a report from the hotel. Spain said it had asked for an explanation of the incident and had been told by U.S. commanders that they had warned journalists 48 hours beforehand that Iraqi military commanders were using the building for meetings. Correspondents at the hotel said they were unaware of any such warning. Central Command spokesman Brigadier General Vincent Brooks said U.S. forces had been fired on from the hotel lobby but, when asked why the tank hit a floor so high up, added: "I may have misspoken on exactly where the fire came from." Doug, I realize that the journalists who said they never heard a single shot fired from the hotel (let alone "small arms fire and RPG fire") were probably lying, and that Reuters is proably biased because it was one of their reporters who was killed, and the military people always tell the truth, unless they misspeak, of course...but the whole thing doesn't make me very proud to be an American. Just like this whole stinking war. And I'm not so sure the Iraqis feel very good about it, either. Especially the dead ones. Oh, well, what's the use? My country, right or wrong, right? Aloha, Mark |
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Subject: RE: BS: US does NOT kill journalists... From: Dave Bryant Date: 09 Apr 03 - 04:40 AM It's beginning to sound like Tom Lehrer's "Hunting Song":- Two game wardens, seven hunters, and a cow. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US does NOT kill journalists... From: gnu Date: 09 Apr 03 - 04:59 AM I laughed out loud when one young lady at the Centcom briefing asked if they should hang white sheets out of their windows. I would have answered, "Yes. It would make targeting easier." I was truly amazed at the stupidity and audacity of some of the press. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US does NOT kill journalists... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 09 Apr 03 - 05:01 AM Relative to the numbers involved, it's a great deal more dangerous being a journalst out in Iraq than it is being in the US/UK miltaryv forces. Fifteen times as likely to get killed or injured is I believe the current ratio. And either way the chances are it's going to be the US/UK who are actually the ones doing the shooting. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US does NOT kill journalists... From: Linda Kelly Date: 09 Apr 03 - 05:05 AM The BBC and ITV have daily reports sometimes 8 times a day from the rooftop of the Hotel Palestine, the information minister held press meetings from the roof of the Palestine Hotel, other foreign journalists other than American have their base at the Hotel Palestine -it is not nor ever has been a venue for snipers as would have been blatantly obvious to any US listening post or forward intelligence. The infiltration of the centre of Baghdad seems gungho and erratic and the minimisation of civilian casualties appears to have been set aside. We may be winning the war, but we are very nearly about to lose the peace before it even starts! |
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Subject: RE: BS: US does NOT kill journalists... From: GUEST Date: 09 Apr 03 - 06:24 AM probably saw someone pointing a fucking big tv camera at the tank as it was being hit with small arms fire, and they responded with a shot. Please remind all media not to point things that look like a T.O.W. at tanks during a war. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US does NOT kill journalists... From: Nemesis Date: 09 Apr 03 - 06:43 AM From the Observer (UK) 6 April 2003 "A French cameraman injured in the shooting attack that killed ITN correspondent Terry Lloyd believes US troops fired on press vehicles to "wipe out troublesome witmesses". IN an interview to be broadcast today, Daniel Demoustier said: "We were travelling along the route to Basra when we overtook some American tanks. We continued for several kilometres until we crossed two vehicles with Iraqui soldiers. We decided to turn around and it was then the Americans started firing shells at all four vehicles. I just had time to leap out. Terry was killed on the spot. The Americans contined to fire at him and at another vehicle which contained second French cameraman, Fred Nerac, who is still missing. "I don't want to imagine the worst, but I have the impression that the Anmericans wanted to wipe out troublesome witnesses" he said. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US does NOT kill journalists... From: GUEST Date: 09 Apr 03 - 06:46 AM witness to what? |
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Subject: RE: BS: US does NOT kill journalists... From: Wolfgang Date: 09 Apr 03 - 06:59 AM BTW, the day before the incident a German journalist was killed by Iraqi fire. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: US does NOT kill journalists... From: Greg F. Date: 09 Apr 03 - 07:24 AM Maybe not journalists, but the U.S. sure does the job on British soldiers- they've killed more than the Iraquis by last count- Liberated the hell out of 'em! |
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Subject: RE: BS: US does NOT kill journalists... From: InOBU Date: 09 Apr 03 - 07:41 AM For the true story, look at the post Lrc add: Victory Song for the USA... here is a taste The crowds that cheered for Sadam now cheer for our Bush You see that they love us, for cheering is the proof They cheered their dictator before his armed ranks But we came in peace in our humvees and tanks |
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Subject: RE: BS: US does NOT kill journalists... From: Rapparee Date: 09 Apr 03 - 07:44 AM Jaysus, folks, fire ain't ever "friendly." Casualities from what is called "friendly fire" have been going on since war began -- it's impossible in the heat of combat to distinguish friend from foe. This applies to the US, the UK, the Russians, the Iraqis, EVERYONE. When your adrenaline's up, when you hear the "CRACK" of the bullet breaking the sound barrier next to your head (and you're damned glad you heard it!), technology or a white flag ain't a-gonna save the butt of the person you think fired the round. This is especially true if you've seen your buddies die or be wounded. It's not hate, either -- it's rage. Remember too that when a shell or bullet is fired it's going to land *someplace*. That might be a hospital or a hotel if it misses the target. Why all the fuss when soldiers are killed? someone asked. After all, it's their job. The same can be said of journalists, who, unlike most soldiers, put themselves in harm's way voluntarily. Or perhaps we should blame the editors or producers, who after all insist on the stories which get their reporters killed. Or people who want to see the gore and carnage in their living rooms. Me, I'm against this war, but I support the grunts, tankers, and others (on both sides) who have been told to do the job. I pity the civilians and will send whatever comfort I can to them. Sorry, but the reporters are doing what they are paid (and told) to do. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US does NOT kill journalists... From: Grab Date: 09 Apr 03 - 07:58 AM Hille, sounds a load of rubbish to me. They drive past the US army, across into the front line, and run into the Iraqi army. The US army catches up and blitzes everything. And this guy's surprised he was in the crossfire?! What an arsehole! Re the hotel, I'd be surprised if there was sniper fire from there. But when they're under fire, it's not completely surprising that stuff like this happens. Re the "targetting the press" thing, get real - they've got tanks and shit, they could demolish the entire building in a couple of minutes if "targetting the press" was the aim! Graham. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US does NOT kill journalists... From: GUEST,hotdog Date: 09 Apr 03 - 09:39 AM It is believed that journalists from the arab world, ie aljazeera, have tipped off the iraqi forces as to the movements of US troops and sent coded messages to the iraqis.. If that is the case, we should blow their nuts off. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US does NOT kill journalists... From: Dave Bryant Date: 09 Apr 03 - 09:43 AM Re the "targetting the press" thing, get real - they've got tanks and shit, they could demolish the entire building in a couple of minutes if "targetting the press" was the aim! It might have been intended to force the jounalists to get their heads down and stop filming though ! |
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Subject: RE: BS: US does NOT kill journalists... From: Charley Noble Date: 09 Apr 03 - 09:48 AM The camera crews at the Palistine Hotel put themselves at risk when they try to film the battle scene around them from the balconies of the hotel. It's not surprising to me that a tank commander on a bridge would order a round shot at the hotel bacony where he saw a flash from a camera which could well have been something more sinister. Regrettable but not surprising. One high-rise hotel pretty much looks like another in a battle situation, and even if the tank commander was briefed that this particular building was full of journalists it could also have been infiltrated by Iraqi soldiers/militants. What a stupid mess! Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: US does NOT kill journalists... From: GUEST Date: 09 Apr 03 - 09:50 AM hotdog - believed by whom? You? |
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Subject: RE: BS: US does NOT kill journalists... From: InOBU Date: 09 Apr 03 - 10:08 AM Here is another taste of the Victory song of the USA... kinda on point to this thread... You yellow dogs who whine about civil liberty How dare you criticize the land of the free Two million we've put in our nations proud jails We have room enough for our critics as well Final Chorus: Our Powerful Tanks and our glorious bombers Spreading the joys of the land of the free The foes of Christ and our Capitalist Union Will rue the day we crossed the sea or the northern boarder or the southern boarder Will rue the day WE CROSSED OUR SEA! |
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Subject: RE: BS: US does NOT kill journalists... From: GUEST,Peace Date: 09 Apr 03 - 11:05 AM It seems to have been well reported in Arab news sources, but not so many western ones, but there have been accusations that the US military have been detaining and mistreating non-embedded reporters allegedly making them stand for long periods, denying them water, and even beating one of them. The particular story I have read concerns two Israeli and two Portugese reporters. The Portugese were called Castro and Silva. Stick their names into Google news to find out what they say happened to them. It certainly makes me suspect that the military are deliberately targetting places where non embedded journalists are staying - not with the intention of causing a huge loss of life or injury (that would provoke too much of an outcry), but to deliberately persuade these people that they are in too much danger to stay. Peace |
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Subject: RE: BS: US does NOT kill journalists... From: GUEST,pdc Date: 09 Apr 03 - 11:16 AM If "friendly fire" occurs because of the confusion of war, why have only the Americans killed people with friendly fire? Why haven't the British? |
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Subject: RE: BS: US does NOT kill journalists... From: Beardy Date: 09 Apr 03 - 11:16 AM The Hotel Palestine has been the base for the majority of Western journalists since day 1 of the conflict. The US forces have been watching the TV coverage from that hotel and as stated in the initial post on this thread there is a bloody great sign on the hotel so to confuse it or believe that all hotels are alike is naive. Also for the General to say the tank driver had his map upside down is an astonishing admission but doesn't imply a raging battle where bullets and shells flying in your direction may lead to panic. If Al-jazeera journalists were spying on the coalition and passing the information to the Iraqi's why were they expelled last week? As for 'friendly fire'it would be more understandable if there was an opposing air force. The coalition forces are clearly identified by a large reversed lamda sign on all vehicles as well as being a different colour. Recognition training on shapes, sizes and silhouettes has been ongoing for months. Why is it the US forces seem to be making all these 'friendly fire' errors on British forces but there have been no reports of British forces attacking US forces? When a British Chinook helicopter was fired on by US gunners and the pilot landed and 'reprimanded' the gunners by asking when they had last seen any Iraqi aircraft you question whether a US pilots response would have been so restrained. Beardy |
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Subject: RE: BS: US does NOT kill journalists... From: CarolC Date: 09 Apr 03 - 11:42 AM Does anyone remember, back in March, news stories about the Pentagon threatening to target journalists in Iraq? I do. This is the only reference I was able to find just now with a Google search though. March 12, 2003: Pentagon threatens to target journalists in Iraq |
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Subject: RE: BS: US does NOT kill journalists... From: GUEST,hotdog Date: 09 Apr 03 - 12:55 PM Believed by me and many in the military and many journalists who have had contact with these people or who listen to their biased anti-American views. It is simple. You DO listen to the news... |
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Subject: RE: BS: US does NOT kill journalists... From: GUEST Date: 09 Apr 03 - 01:10 PM Losing journalists and media types is a good idea, they are just crap anyway... |
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Subject: RE: BS: US does NOT kill journalists... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 09 Apr 03 - 01:27 PM "It is believed" - unless there is some reason for believing things, the fact that they are believed doesn't add up to much. If it is true that people were passing those kind of rumours around among the military, that would strengthen the case for suspecting that this killing at the Palestine Hotel wasn't an acident. This is the main hotel where the press seems to operate from, and where broadcasts to the world's media seem to come from. I just now saw an interview with an American marine reporting on scenes in Baghdad. He was, of course, speaaking from the roof of the Palestine Hotel. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US does NOT kill journalists... From: Nemesis Date: 09 Apr 03 - 03:18 PM The Guardian report into media attacks Click here |
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Subject: RE: BS: US does NOT kill journalists... From: GUEST Date: 09 Apr 03 - 06:34 PM I don't know why we Brits are siding with the rebel colonists in the first place. We should have taken out that terrorist Washington. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US does NOT kill journalists... From: Little Hawk Date: 09 Apr 03 - 11:31 PM This is just another discussion where people's views and conclusions will again be determined by their preconceived prejudices, quite regardless of the available evidence, pro or con. People ignore, dispute or discount evidence that doesn't fit their customary agenda. So, discuss, disagree, and enjoy...y'all... - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: US does NOT kill journalists... From: DougR Date: 10 Apr 03 - 01:35 AM Not proud to be an American, Mark. Good enough. Just be proud to be an Hawaiian then! The Guardian report: (paraphrased) "Central Command reported that the tank crew was responding to enemy fire. Witnessess on the scene refuted this." So we are to believe the un-named witnesses, right? Because the Guardian reported it? DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: US does NOT kill journalists... From: Nemesis Date: 10 Apr 03 - 04:08 AM Why not believe the "un-named witnesses because the Guardian reported it, Doug? Reporters are trained observers/recorders of events .. Central Command have a situation to defend .. Reporters have a situation to report .. just because a truth may be unpalatable doesn't mean it must be untruthful. And from the Guardian a few days earlier .. a picture of an un-named American soldier wearing a helmet disgracefully emblazoned with the slogan "Kill 'em all" .. perhaps, the Guardian altered the image to suit some anti-American/military agenda? |
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Subject: RE: BS: US does NOT kill journalists... From: GUEST,Peace Date: 10 Apr 03 - 05:35 AM "Un-named witnesses" who are named a paragraph or so later... Try reading it again and you might find the names of Sky correspondent David Chater and BBC correspondent Rageh Omar. You can't dismiss everything just on the grounds that it was reported in the Guardian - especially if you can't be bothered to read the piece properly. Peace |
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Subject: RE: BS: US does NOT kill journalists... From: Mark Cohen Date: 10 Apr 03 - 05:38 AM Doug, the witnesses are named in the Reuters report. Your clever rhetorical question is a misrepresentation of the facts. I'm tired of all this. The looters are taking over, there will be martial law soon, and thousands more Iraqi children will die for lack of food and basic medicines. But we'll own the oil. Hooray for our side. Aloha, Mark |
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Subject: RE: BS: US does NOT kill journalists... From: DougR Date: 10 Apr 03 - 09:26 AM Hille: IF one could be assured that reporting by "professionals" is without prejudice, I would more likely agree with your statement. However, that does not always happen, and in my opinion, "The Guardian" does not hesitate to print something anti-American whether it is accurate or not. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: US does NOT kill journalists... From: Wolfgang Date: 10 Apr 03 - 09:34 AM Perceptions can be very different. Whenever in Britain I prefer the Guardian to other newspapers. My impressions was that it may have its share of errors but they tend to print what they consider to be accurate whether it is anti-whoever or not. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: US does NOT kill journalists... From: GUEST Date: 10 Apr 03 - 09:53 AM I believe the international journalists, most of whom refused to be in bed with the Anglo American military forces, paid a high price for their attempts to report independently. It is nigh on impossible to see an anti-press jihad conspiracy from Washington when looking at isolated instances of journalists being singled out and targeted by the US military. Fog of war on the ground makes for very good cover for the military's not so valiant tactics to control the propaganda war on the airwaves. However, if you turn off your TV news and use only the print media to get your news, a very different picture emerges. That picture is pretty damning, in that it shows that targeting independent (or what the military referred to as "unilateral") journalists has been a deliberate strategy in Iraq. I'm not buying the "a poor, frightened 18 year old boy reacted in panic" defense for the shelling of the Palestine Hotel, or for taking out the Al Jazeera and Abu Dhabi journalists the first day in Baghdad. Uh uh. Too convenient. The network television pictures of the "jubilant Baghdadis" were too orchestrated (did no one notice whose tank was being used to pull that statue down?), too propagandist, to show what was truly happening. It is truly frightening to see how desperate the Bush/Blair military is to beam those "liberation" propaganda images to the world. Let us hope that desperation has the positive result of the US genuinely returning to the international community now, and allowing the international community in to do their job of rebuilding Iraq. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US does NOT kill journalists... From: MC Fat Date: 10 Apr 03 - 09:57 AM Interesting that it was a French crew that got the brunt of the attack. Could be just cynical of me but as you Yanks were not happy at the French trying to stop the war.......Anyway all the Us needs to do now is send in Arnold Swarzenneger and Sylvester Stallone to mop up the rest. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US does NOT kill journalists... From: GUEST Date: 10 Apr 03 - 10:04 AM I also find it odd that there aren't any pictures of the US soldiers hoisting the US flags up--as is reported to have occurred in Um Qasar, Baghdad, and elsewhere. To me, that speaks volumes about the doublespeak of the military. Say what the world wants to hear to the press, but then do what we truly intended on the battlefield. There seems to be a "our boys will be boys" attitude about the hoisting of the American flag after battles, that reveals a bit darker intent than "liberation". Words like subjugation and pacification spring to mind. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US does NOT kill journalists... From: GUEST,Bagpuss Date: 10 Apr 03 - 10:13 AM In the dreaded Guardian, you can see pictures that show the mixed response of the Iraqi people yesterday. Along with pictures of jubilant scenes there is one picture of Iraqis holding up a banner saying "Go Home, you US wankers". But of course being the Guardian, they probably made the banner and set up the photo themselves, right Doug? Bagpuss |
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Subject: RE: BS: US does NOT kill journalists... From: GUEST Date: 10 Apr 03 - 10:31 AM Bagpuss, there are Iraqis being bribed by the military to do things just like that, and Rumsfeld not only said so in his briefing yesterday, he begged Iraqis to come forward and aid the American troops in any way they could. As I watched the pictures of the statue being toppled, and the banner which was not about "US wankers" but about the US peace activists who went to Baghdad to act as human shields, I wondered how much the military had paid all those men to create the photo ops that were shown on the nightly news as the "historic television moment" of the day. Those TV pictures were pure Anglo American propaganda. They were so obviously staged, I can't believe the "jubilant liberation" crap is being swallowed by so many otherwise intelligent people. Sort of like the SARS fear mongering. Thousands of people die of influenza every year. So why is it this year, that "international travel" is being used to whip up global hysteria and frenzy about "foreigners" spreading a new (sic) deadly disease? It seems to me the US mainstream media in particular is doing all it can to whip up xenophobic and anti-internationalist sentiments at every turn. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US does NOT kill journalists... From: Wolfgang Date: 10 Apr 03 - 11:04 AM Yesterday's response appears to reflect the real mood in Iraq. (The Guardian of today) Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: US does NOT kill journalists... From: CarolC Date: 10 Apr 03 - 02:12 PM Guardian Home Page |
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Subject: RE: BS: US does NOT kill journalists... From: InOBU Date: 10 Apr 03 - 02:21 PM I have to say, I was moved by Linda Kelly's remark about winning the war and losing the peace, and for those of you who don't think we intentionaly used the coordinates El Jazera gave us, to hit them... we don intentionalally blow up journalists? remember the la penga bombing in Costarica? What am I saying, the US has a 15 minute memory of it's crimes and misdeeds. Cheers Larry |
