BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)

Subject: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: Beccy
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 12:41 PM

Did you all see the scene of the group of Iraqis beating on the statue in the square in the center of Baghdad? I wish I knew what the man who kept hitting it with a sledgehammer was saying. He turned and yelled something toward the journalists every single time he hit the base of the statue.

According to the Washington Post (linked to through Drudge), the man is a Baghdad Imam. I'd love to read more about him.

What do you think of the jubilation of those present when the Marines helped them by using a steel rope and a tank to pull it down?

Have you all heard the difference in the reports of those journalists who up until now had to vet their reports through Iraqi government handlers?

This is truly amazing stuff. What do you think?

Beccy

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: GUEST,Nosediver
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 12:44 PM

Oh, yes, the televised war! Did you see the boy with his limbs blown off - I believe he is an orphan now. truly amazing stuff indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: DonMeixner
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 01:05 PM

Nosediver,

Did you see the people cheering and hugging the marines. Did you see the car loads of people who blew themselves up as suicides. Did you see the truck loads of water and rice. Did you see the Iraqi soldiers keeping people from the food. Did you see the boat loads of food in the harbor and the once burning oil wells being put out? Did you see the pictures of the tug boats with mines for the harbor entrances and the explosives wired to the well heads. Did you hear of the people who risked their own lives to save from torture a wounded GI. Did you see the towns people accidently killed by GIs.   Did you see bombs exploding in precisely targeted military sites. Did you see the people taking back their own lives from an evil man.

Enough irony to go around don't you think?

Don

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: bflat
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 01:08 PM

I don't have any answers but the unleashing of all that anger is indeed powerful.

Ellen

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 02:05 PM

Good news at last.
Today was a good day.
If the Iraquis themselves are relieved to see us, who will tell them that they are wrong?
Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: katlaughing
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 02:18 PM

NPR had a specialist on who said the reception was not as jubilant as was shown on tv, around other parts of the country. She also said, even in Baghdad, there was not as much welcoming among the people as the *liberators* expected. This is still all so up in the air.

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 02:20 PM

This morning we saw what amounts to what one glimpses through a keyhole; cameras happened to be available in that one square because it was across the street from the hotel where hundreds of journalists have been staying.

Anyone see The English Patient? Statues were booby trapped because it was known that revellers would approach them to tear them down.

No argument that Saddam was a bad guy. A lot of improvement can be seen for the future if his family goes missing. Some other things folks were unaware of might improve also, like this. But it wasn't our war to fight, and a heckuva lot of people have already died, and many more are going to die. The worst is yet to come, as looting and revenge killing sets in.

Don't get carried away by that man beside the fallen statue. He is the manifestation of wishful thinking, but it's not "real." It's "reel."

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 02:31 PM

There are disaffected people in every country, people who would be overjoyed at the promise of the betterment of their lives. There are some even in the USA, people who have always fallen through the cracks, people who feel, rightly or wrongly, that they have never been given a chance. If another administration came into US government promising a radical life change for these people, they too would be dancing in the streets.

The same thing is true in Syria, Iran, North Korea - in fact, all over the world.

I agree with those who see this as a narrow slice in a small pie. I just hope that 10 years, 5 years, 5 months, from now they will be happy with where their country has gone. I even more fervently hope that the USA can be happy with what we have wrought.

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 02:45 PM

A couple hundred people, out of FIVE MILLION in Baghdad, show up to cheer the demolition of a Saddam statue. Fucking wow. Put a 40-foot piñata in downtown Chicago, and you'll get a similar response. People like parties, and people like parades. Next week, those same people will be pelting those same marines with rocks. The fall of the Berlin wall, it wasn't.

It was entertaining, though. Especially the part where some redneck marine tried to wrap Saddamstatues's head in a US flag, then when ordered to remove it, balled it up like trash and tossed it down.

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 02:46 PM

"Don't get carried away by that man beside the fallen statue. He is the manifestation of wishful thinking, but it's not "real." It's "reel.""

I saw a similar thing when the Berlin wall came down. That was real. I'd prefer to think that this is too. If you look for the negative you'll find it - I'm hopeful that this is indeed an opportunity for the Iraqi people to find their own voice.

I'm also hopeful that this will give other despots, who are less tolerant, a window to look out of for the possibility of change for them also. It was a nice picture of the statue going away.

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 02:48 PM

When the British Soldiers arrived in Belfast back in 1969 they were sincerely welcomed by people from the Nationalist community as a kind of liberation and protection. Cups of tea and cakes.

They think they've got their country back. If it turns out they haven't they are not going to be best pleased. I hope it turns out they won't feel betrayed. Think of the Russians who believed that things were going to get so much better, and they got incomparably worse for most of them.

Noone is denying that Saddam's was a really nasty regime. But the priocess by which he has (touch wood) been disposed of is likely to turn outr to have some terrible longterm consequences. And thousands of decent people have had ther lives torn to pieces. Well over one thousand civilians killed already - that's lower than was predicted, but it's a horrible price that's been paid. And more to come.

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 02:57 PM

Maybe McGrath - but we were being held hostage by the terorists anyway I believe. And to appease that mentality does nothing but embolden them. I'm hopeful that the Iraqis will get their country back and go on to great things. It could be the centerpiece of change that reverbrates throughout the region in a good way.

Just my .02 worth

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: Beccy
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 03:07 PM

No one was denying he was a bad guy, but you're all stupid for being moved by several people being glad that his regime is toppling...

Whether it was 500 or 5 million, what I saw was a group of people tasting some freedom for the first time in 30 years and whether or not you like it, it moves me. Small slice or not, that was genuine.

"Don't get carried away by that man beside the fallen statue. He is the manifestation of wishful thinking, but it's not "real." It's "reel.""

I see. I cannot be moved by some genuine human drama. So does that mean I cannot be moved by the sacrifice made by "Mohammad", the man who risked his life to save the life of PFC Lynch? Was he a product of wishful thinking?

Nice touch of drama about throwing the flag down, Lepus, but he didn't throw it down. He stowed it on his gear. Big difference.

Beccy

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 03:11 PM

No, Beccy, the guy who he tossed it down to "stowed it on his gear," if that's what you want to call stuffing a balled-up US flag in his belt. I though that sort of thing bothered "you people?"

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: Wolfgang
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 03:14 PM

A couple hundred people, out of FIVE MILLION in Baghdad

And I thought this type of argumentation comes only from politicians trying to play down some demonstration that doesn't fit in their frame of mind, like for instance a demonstration for peace during the last weeks.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: Penny S.
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 03:47 PM

Actually, when I heard this on the radio, I thought I was listening to something completely different. Just before 6 pm, BBC R4 played it as if it were live. I turned it on while I was in the car, and heard something like "They've got the rope round Saddam's neck", and the rest of the report referring to the staue as Saddam. It was chilling.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: Beccy
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 03:56 PM

"You people"?????? Wow, Lepus. Your tolerance of diversity is astonishing. Actually, the flag is a piece of cloth to me. While it is symbolic, I do not believe it should be afforded more care than a human being. Let's see... let the soldier fall because he's trying to properly fold a flag or let him keep his footing and stuff the flag into his belt. I'm going for stuffing the flag into his belt. You're awfully bitter about this.

Beccy

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: Wolfgang
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 03:59 PM

I can tell that many of the Iraqis living in Germany are very pleased and they show it on the streets with car ralleys and so on. They have no incentive like a parade for showing up they just want to show and share their joy.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: Beccy
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 04:04 PM

Wolfgang- The same phenomenon is occuring in Detroit and its suburbs where there is a large Iraqi exile population. One man who was interviewed chose to be fired from his job rather than miss the celebrations.

Tag,

Beccy

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 04:04 PM

They were shouting 'Infidel', 'blasphemer', 'Murderer' and other such things that have been forbidden since he came to power.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: Dead Horse
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 04:40 PM

AND they did it spontaneously, out of sight of camera for the most part. They also exhibited displays of religeous freedom denied by Saddam. The most important thing is that other arab countries also saw it, and are now not so sure that we in the west are hell bent on their destruction.
I fleetingly wished that the "human shield" were beneath that statue as it fell, then I realised that would make me as bad as the despot himself. But I hope THEY saw, and thought, and then felt as stupid and misguided as I believe them to be.
"The Berlin Wall it is not" It is to those citizens of Baghdad.

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: Rapparee
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 04:48 PM

Look here.

And the Iraqi embassy in Brazil is reportedly burning its papers.

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: GUEST,Claymore
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 05:08 PM

Like the Japanese after Pearl Harbor...

And Bush may always have problems with his nouns, but he is spot on with his verbs.

And the man of the hour is Blair, who led his people out of the darkness into the sun. He will go down in history as one of the great Prime Ministers of Britain.

And as the old Arab saying goes; "While mangey dogs bark, the caravan moves on..."

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 05:12 PM

Claymore-Tell me exactly how Britain's involvement in this war will benefit the nation, seeing as how they aren't going to get any of the money involved in rebuilding Iraq once we've finished blowing it up? All I see is soldiers killed by their allies and by accident in a war they had no reason to fight. What possible good could Britain realize from this?

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: SINSULL
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 05:20 PM

American soldiers have been repeatedly reprimanded for displaying American flags. The fear is that it will be seen as the symbol of a conquering army. Thanks for clearing that up Beccy. I had a hard time understanding why he would have thrown it on the ground.

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 05:31 PM

I see. I cannot be moved by some genuine human drama. So does that mean I cannot be moved by the sacrifice made by "Mohammad", the man who risked his life to save the life of PFC Lynch? Was he a product of wishful thinking?

Your words, Beccy. I said don't get carried away with it, you're only seeing a tiny percentage of what is going on there, and that is still the case. It's "reel" because it's all a media show right now, what they can get to, what they choose to show, what they're allowed to show.

The drama and extreme focus on Private Lynch is so much simulacra, hyper-real in the hands of the speculating media and salivating screenwriters. She's lucky to be alive, it's too bad she was there in the first place, and a lot of stereotypes are going to be hoist up the pole along with the American flag when that dog-and-pony show makes it to the silver screen.

Considering you asked "what do you think?" in your opening salvo, I think you should be able to accept the responses posted without arguing with them. Otherwise it's just trolling.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: mg
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 05:51 PM

I would hope that people can rejoice with the people of Iraq, even if they sincerely feel that the Iraqi good fortune in being relieved of a tyrant who bathes his torturees in acid is a byproduct of our stealing their land for oil, fulfilling Bush's father psychodrama and/or his destiny in Biblical prophecies etc. It's a good day for them, a good day for us, a good day for the world. The world is cranking and cranking toward more peace and stability. Awful things can still happen, but with more people lurching toward freedom fewer and fewer we can hope.

Be happy for them.

mg

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 06:12 PM

I personally don't care what he did with the stupid flag, Beccy. I just found it amusing that one of these "patriots" would not only insultingly use our beloved flag as some sort of head-dress for a filthy outdoor statue, but would also discard it like used kleenex when told to take it down. I'm no expert on flag etiquette, but I always thought things like this were no-nos...

And trust me, I'm very tolerant of diversity. Honestly, I wouldn't trade you for a dozen of the usual Mudcat liberals. :)

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 06:22 PM

mary garvey-We can hope that they have not traded in one dictator for a longer-lived and more powerful one. I am glad that Saddam is gone, but can't help but wonder whether it will actually benefit the Iraqi people in the long run.

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: GUEST,Claymore
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 06:41 PM

Forum L, I am obviously not a diplomat, but it's my belief that Britain is now the number two nation in the world, and may just be number one in moral standing, for the very reasons you have stated in your question; it had little to gain but it's soul. While it was Bush that made the decision to go, it was Blair who provided the compelling and heart-felt language that gave purpose to this endeavor, to both Britons and Americans.

As most politicians know, political capital must be spent to do any good. Clinton wasted his at every turn, but Bush used what little he had to turn the last elections into the bare mandate he needed. All of Europe and most of the world must bend a knee to Blair in order to get anything done on the world's stage. The French, Germans and Russians will never admit it, but they will not see Bush except through Blair. And while Thatcher made Britain a major player, on par with Reagan and Gorbachov, Blair has given moral force to the British view of things.

The UN has no credibility except through Blair. There will be conflicts resolved, economies changed and regions elevated through Blair's policies. He is far more liberal than Bush, but he has earned his place at the table, somtimes following, sometimes leading, but tested in the same furnace as Bush. And unlike Clinton, the Bushes value loyalty above all else.

The eternal shame is, that like Thatcher, (and Churchill) the Brits may be the only people not know what they have. The rest of the world does...

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: GUEST,Norton1
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 07:06 PM

"Our beloved flag" - Hmm - did not know you assigned that to yourself Lepus Rex. Your prior postings had to do with your support of Iraq. Are you just angry that your regime fell?

And in my experience you have zero tolerance for diversity Will. You're just an a-hole - but I'm tolerant of that with you. As usual you are off tangent and trolling to your delight!

Not bad for a chubby skinhead! And I just loooovveee You too -

:)

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 07:24 PM

The only things that are being shown on western television are scenes that are *approved*. There is an entire war that is not being shown. Just 5 minutes of uncut, uneditied in any hospital in Baghdad would prove to be very sobering, indeed. Or a ride on the highway to Syria where one burned out civilian auto after another litters the highway with burned corpses, most of whom were civilians trying to escape the carnage.

Yeah, the US media will pump this up with images of a dumb statue falling over but won't dare show one danged civilian corpse or hospital ward.

But, hey, we got God on our side. Right?

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 07:34 PM

You're right, Norton1. How can I call myself a tolerant man when I have no tolerance for violent stalkers who hang out on fascist/racist/sexist/homophobic forums? Thanks for opening my eyes, "Steve!"

Oh, and Beccy, I looked around for a photo of the marine wadding the flag up, but all I could find was a photo or two of the rub-down he gave Saddam. Inspiring!

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 07:55 PM

Claymore-the UN has no credibility through Blair or Bush. The two of them have decided that they need not pay attention to the rest of the Security Council, the General Council, or world opinion. Blair's "moral standing" is presently that of a leader who ignores international law and the will of the people to support an illegal war that his country gains nothing for, save the friendship of the world's largest rogue state.

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 08:27 PM

He's Back Again!!! #2

Ex-Corporal Snortin' Norton Whitefeather Neff, fearless, rugged leatherneck; the man who never walked away from a fight, the man who threatens people of opposing viewpoints with assault, the man who decries 'cowards' and 'wimps' and 'wusses' and 'bottom feeders' and dares them to goat it toe-to-toe...

The red-blooded, two-fisted American Hero who felt so personally threatened by a couple of posts to an internet web-site that he had to run whining and crying for help to a mouth-breather & knuckle-dragger's cyber clubhouse to recruit a lynch mob of cyber-louts with ridiculous junior-high school "macho"[sic] screen names to come galloping to his rescue??? One sick puppy!- simper, fido.

Hail the conquering hero! A regular Profile in Courage. Welcome back.

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: GUEST,Claymore
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 08:31 PM

Why thank you...

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: robomatic
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 08:46 PM

It was very good to see the statue come down. Now we've got the real work. Making sure that what the statue REPRESENTED is vanquished.

Congratulations to the U.S., British, and Australian soldiers who brought this first part of the challenge off so well (I think I heard there are even some Poles out there).

Robo

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 09:01 PM

Yes, congratulations, heroic troops!

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 09:13 PM

there were also slovaks, czech, germans, danes, hungarians, and morocco
contributed a herd of monkeys for mine clearing
-
and Mcgrath of Harlow, regarding Russia, perhaps in recent years they may be worse off, but they bankrupted themselves after years of military spending.
and Im pretty sure theyre better off then under Stalins purges of the 30's or the millions sent to the gulag.

under the Czech communists people werent even allowed to have vegetable gardens at one point - because they might just grow vegetables and sell them in capitalistic markets.
what the fuck do you know.
or leper rex , how many of you actually lived under a dictatorship?
petr

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 10:04 PM

Geeeze, deja vu......

Ahhh, we were talkin' about symbols and got hyjacked with microscopic sybolism. Can we get back to the subject at hand or have we come to a point where all discussions end up in same place.

Well, the news ,made a big thing about the statue coming down. Heck, they pulled one down yesterday, too. Does that one count?

I heard the announcer making some rediculous statement about how in years to come we would all remember just where we were when we say this! Ha! Waht a joke. This ain't the Kennedy assasination here folks. Yeah, if you wanta pick you favorite moment of this sterilized coverage of an event where l.ots of folks have been hurt and killed as being one of those monments that defines your life, fine. Knock your self out.

This was an aviodable war that will most likely haunt the US for decades to come and I'm having trouble finding something suitable for framing from it.

Hey, I might be more excited about it if it weren't for the folks who have been planning it for years.

And, BTW, anyone want to go on record here of saying exactly why it was fought?

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: mg
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 10:16 PM

I will go on record. Pretty much for the reasons we were given. Of course I could be wrong and the Trilateral Commission might be behind it all. But there was a sadistic torturer with an itch for more blood on his hands. I have no idea whether he was involved in 9/11 or has ties to Osama. He stands on his own merits. He failed to comply with the terms of his capitulation in the last war, starved his people (in addition to the torture), spit in the face of the world and needed to go before he spread his abuses, or people taking courage from him spread theirs.

mg

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 10:24 PM

Like I asked, what was this war fought for? No offense, mary, but I don't have a clue what you have answered. " the reasons that were given" leaves a vast number of choices...

Meanwhile, we turn on out televisions and watch Isrealis shooting civilian Palestinians in one corner of the screen, the US shooting Iraqi civilians in another and the Oakland Police shooting American civilians in another...

Is it too much to ask why this is happening when the US was attacked by Sauidi's?

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 10:28 PM

mary garvey-Saddam is all of those things. So are many other dictators, and some of them, such as Kim Jong-Il, pose a greater threat to us. I don't know why we chose Saddam as our target, or possibly first target, but I can't think of any answers that make me feel better about the policy.

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 10:45 PM

If I'm a Black kid who's just been arrested, beaten into confessing to a crime I didn't commit in Texas, appointed incomepent defense cousel who fall asleep during thr trial, and my appeal is turned down by George Bush the night before I'm killed, then I couldn't care less what your definitions of bad folks is?.....

Sorry, I drifted...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: Peg
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 11:59 PM

wow, Greg F, my thoughts exactly!

I think that anyone who goes into a completely unrelated forum and goads the thugs who generally hang out there to come onto the Mudcat as anonymous GUESTS to stir up trouble, and furthermore goads these latent homosexual wanna-be-tough-but-I'm-not wife-beating flag-waving gun-toting RETARDS to go cyber-stalking after the folks on Mudcat, ought to be BANNED from the Mudcat.

Anyone?

If you really want a fight, go enlist, for fuck's sake.

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 10 Apr 03 - 12:04 AM

Peg-While I can't disagree with most of your classification of this particular set of characters, I have to wonder where you got the idea that they were closeted gays. It seems an unnecessary and inflammatory addendum.

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: Peg
Date: 10 Apr 03 - 12:09 AM

Lurker:

I did not say "closeted gays."
I said "latent homosexuals."
There is a VERY BIG difference...

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 10 Apr 03 - 12:40 AM

Peg-What is the difference, and how did you draw your conclusions?

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: DougR
Date: 10 Apr 03 - 12:49 AM

kat: sad. You dont' believe your own eyes. You have to rely on a NPR "specialist" to tell you what you are seeing. The live video images of the people in that park could not be faked. Why are you so upset that the Iraqi people may, at last, have a shot at a decent life?

Perhaps you would be rejoicing if Slick Willy or Ralphie Nader or Al boy were president. However, it never would have happend had any of those jokers been president.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 10 Apr 03 - 12:54 AM

DougR-Of course "live video" cannot be faked. It would be absolutely impossible to falsify a timestamp, dress a number of Iraqi immigrants to look like Baghdad natives, and film them. Also, while it might be true that none of the aforementioned politicians wouldn't have gotten us into this war, some of think that would be a good thing.

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: Peg
Date: 10 Apr 03 - 01:09 AM

Lurker:
a "closeted gay" man is one who is gay and probably engages in homosexual behavior but keeps his sexual orientation a secret...

a "latent homosexual" is one who does not engage in homosexual practices despite a propensity or subconscious (or perhaps even unconscious) desire to do so...the homosexual urge is repressed...such tendencies often lead men to spend a great deal of time in the company of other men, in intimate situations, and to engage in vaunted "masculine" activities (sports, especially weight-lifting, and combat) or behavior (aggression, violence, exteme physicality, misogyny, and homophobia).
Thus there is a fair amount of latent homosexuality to be found in the military...

that's just a basic definition, but one that anyone who's taken a basic psychology class could repeat...

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 10 Apr 03 - 01:53 AM

Slick Willie, Ralphie Nader, Al Boy...

Dougie... Rush has gotta love you! Passionate Perversity went out in grade school... try doing some research, and then present your facts. But spouting ardently this rediculous nonsense is good for a dumb bully laugh, huh? Grow up DougR!

I enjoyed watching the Stalin-like statue fall! However, there is so much ugliness happening all around that statue, that we don't see. I'm not deeply moved by the enjoyable photo op, and the flag scene was truly odd...

War is not a legitimate method for change, when all other options have not been exhausted. Impatience is not a very good moral imperative, if you ask me... Peace, ttr

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Apr 03 - 02:41 AM

Doug, you are getting so tiresome with your carping of little substance...do you really love living a life full of pablum? I do NOT watch the news. I read it on the internet and in newspapers. I listen to it on the radio. AND, the sources I use are diverse, promoting freedom of thought. You know? That old listening to all sides of an issue instead of just what the mainstream want you to hear? TV is full of seconds-long *soundbites* meant to stir the emotions with no substance and requiring no thought or reasoning; very rarely is it in-depth, unbiased; non-censored.

Also, to everyone: I suggest we all declare a moratorium on treating each other like shit. Do any of us remember the music we came here for?

kat

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 10 Apr 03 - 03:06 AM

As always, there are those who take delight in doing what they have been itching to do throughout a one-sided battle---come up with their "I told you so"s and great glee in "their side's victory". Well,---not that I think the sentiments of "peacenicks" could ever pierce their super-patriotic hides----there are many millions of us who were, and are, against this ongoing war and who are forever disgusted by the lying propaganda which attempted its justification. The end result was never --and still isn't---in any doubt; the super-power and its retinue were always going to "win" their victory. The fact that such is inevitable does not --cannot---be a factor in its justification. When [if---] it is finally over, the greatest and most genuine relief will be felt by those who abhorred the rush to war in the first place. In some secret hearts, there will be a sneaking anticipation of the next time wee george, donald ,dick,wolf and phoney blair can have renewed hours of glory on C.N.N. May their hopes be forever frustrated.

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: Gareth
Date: 10 Apr 03 - 04:31 AM

Well it ain't over yet, but one thing is demonstrated, Saddam Hussain was not loved by his own people, those that he allowed to live that is.

The main thing now is to build on this occasion, and rebuild Iraq as a free and democratic nation.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: Wolfgang
Date: 10 Apr 03 - 06:32 AM

I suggest we all declare a moratorium on treating each other like shit. (kat)

Well said.
I was against this war, but nevertheless I can feel the spontaneous joy of those who feel liberated. I don't know how many share their feelings of their fellow countryfolk but those I see here or in TV seem genuine to me.

However, these sign of joy don't come as a complete surprise for anybody who knew a bit about Iraq, so they are not a good reason for someone who has been against the war to change their position now.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 10 Apr 03 - 07:10 AM

Beccy, why do you say it's Iraq's first taste of freedom in 30 years? The BBC recalled this morning that a Brit general in 1920 ordered that any Iraqi found with so much as a bullet should be shot and his village flattened. Of course that was before UK troops had started using gas on Iraqis.

Norton1, re the Berlin wall, it's worth keeping in mind that some of those former Warsaw Pact countries have greater discontent, higher unemployment and smaller economies now than before the wall came down (GDP now around 70 per cent of what it was).

Dead Horse, those religious freedoms will be fine until the involve cutting off hands for theft, stoning rape victims to death etc.

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: GUEST,Peace
Date: 10 Apr 03 - 07:11 AM

If it really is all about liberating people from regimes with appalling human rights abuses what is the timetable for liberating the following countries and territories - all given maximum worst ratings for political rights and civil liberties in Freedom House research.

Afghanistan
Burma
Cuba
Iraq
North Korea
Libya
Saudi Arabia
Sudan
Syria
Turkmenistan
Tibet
Chechnya

What's the betting that we target Libya and Syria, and completely ignore the same abuses going on in Saudi Arabia and Burma/Myanmar?

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: catspaw49
Date: 10 Apr 03 - 07:29 AM

I hate to mention anything in these threads at all, and least of all anything humorous, but I think the statue with the hole blown in it's groin is far more symbolic.

And while I'm at it, why not a completely politically incorrect joke? You say the Iraqis in the U.S. are dancing in the streets? Are all of the 7-11's closed or what?

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: Beccy
Date: 10 Apr 03 - 08:39 AM

Ok, SRS, let me rephrase then... what do you think so that we can discuss (or argue) about it.

Yeesh- semantics.

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: Beccy
Date: 10 Apr 03 - 08:45 AM

Okay, Fionn- It's Iraq's first taste of freedom in 30+ years.

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: artbrooks
Date: 10 Apr 03 - 08:55 AM

Lepus Rex says some redneck marine tried to wrap Saddamstatues's head in a US flag. Well, much as I'm sure that many of our Indian Marines would have liked to have had that opportunity, he was identified by a family of first-generation Bermese-Americans in New York as their son, so I'm afraid that he's really a yellowneck.

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Apr 03 - 09:23 AM

Well, here is an interesting scenerio.

What if there was a big statue of George W. Bush in downtown Washington, D.C. Okay, I know there isn't but with the crowd running country now there very well may be one soon.

But lets say, after the arrogant, anti-human, unilaterialist and violent foreign policy of the Bush/Cheney/Rumsfelf/Perle/Wolfowitx regime, I think that if they somehow had to give tne country back to the people, which is doubtful, that their would be a great number of Americans who would delight in tearing down that statute.

I'm still unhappy with National Airport being named after a B-movie actor who plunged the country into unprecidented debt and wouldgladly see that name removed...

Just a thought.

But yeah, I reckon that this scene will become the PR centerpiece of the regime's claim of victory, which it is neither. But it will be shoved down the thoats of any one dumb enough to think that Boss Hog's television is the only way to get news...

Yes it will be imprinted in the minds of the masses. But there won't be one hospital scene from the any hospital in Baghdad or picture of a burned out car with the burned corpses of a family trying to flee to safety.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: GUEST, Claymore
Date: 10 Apr 03 - 09:50 AM

I'm not sure that the eventual victory was ever really in question, but it is the fact that it was achieved with brillant dispatch and low casualties, in what to most observers was an unprecidented effort to reduce civilian casualties, and preserve the religious and cultural trappings of Iraq, and in the face of the frustrated fulminations of the looney left.

When the PC Pacifists go to the groin, and opine that our victories were due to killer faggots, I have to wonder... are they getting any? Can Peg be trusted with the pointy end of a dildo?

When the same video is shown from levendy-seven different viewpoints on every cable and satellite station I can get, and presumabley sane people claim it is faked, I have to wonder if that Number 2 Spalding hit on the Moon in 1970 wasn't just product placement.

It can't help that CNN is now playing the prior comments of those from the left, who now appear to be idiots in the face of the present state of things.

But have some faith, even a blind squirrel finds some nuts. This thing isn't over yet, and there may be something the left can salvage from this situation. Maybe all the Special Republican Guard were gay or prefferred one-humped camels. Maybe one Marine will NOT say, "I just want to go home to my family," when interviewed on TV. Then Clinton's entire first year of the presidency will not have been wasted. (His second year was, of course, spent on the indictments being returned on his Cabinet).

In any case, the angels of my better nature have asked me to desist from further rough treatment of the blow-up dolls of the left (which, as we know from the various advertisments, are anatomically correct in every way, and in some cases include hair). After all, the shouts and screams have never bothered me, it's the damn wimpering afterward...

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: GUEST,LB
Date: 10 Apr 03 - 10:12 AM

Claymore, you're so gung ho, get on a plane and go over there and kick some butt. What, you say? Can't make it, have an appointment to get your hair cut?

You can dish it out but you can't go do it yourself. Just another armchair warrior with his hand on his joystick while he watches CNN.

Military.com Login: none
Message: This goes to the "ABUSE" department.
Your member, who identifies as "Norton1" has been inviting members of this site to post abusive remarks on an unrelated web site's discussion list. If Military.com is a responsible organizaiton, representing members of the military who support, among other rights, free speech, then it shouldn't be necessary to point out that Norton1 has been abusing others who practice that right. His objection is that those others have concerns about or are in outright opposition to the war in Iraq, so has decided to heap abuse on them. I believe this individual, Norton1, crossed from "free speech" to "abuse," and invited his friends to do the same. Perhaps you should speak to this individual about keeping his rhetoric where it is appreciated?

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Apr 03 - 10:48 AM

The "live TV" version of events in Baghdad (note I'm not calling it "liberation") were staged for propaganda purposes. Likely, the men in the video were paid by US troops.

How can so many otherwise intelligent people fall for shit like that? C'mon people, you think it was coincidence the toppled statue was in the immediate vicinity of the Palestine Hotel, where the international journalists are housed? I can't believe that anyone would think that this was a spontaneous celebration, when a US tank and US soldiers were the ones who toppled the statue. Do people just check their critical faculties at the door when they go home and turn on the propaganda box?

Did that man holding the picture of Saddam and beating it with his shoe, who kept looking at the TV cameras as he did it, look "spontaneous"? Did the men who were actually standing in line just off camera, and taking turns in orderly fashion kicking the picture look like people who were waiting to be liberated, or waiting to get paid by the bribery officer?

Did no one hear Rumsfeld's message in his briefing yesterday, when he said there was bribe money available for Iraqis willing to "cooperate" with US troops?

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: robomatic
Date: 10 Apr 03 - 12:57 PM

Beccy - Are you Anti-Semantic?



Guest, Peace: I appreciate the list of the bad countries of the world. Are you suggesting it's time to take them on - alphabetically?

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Apr 03 - 01:44 PM

Okay, Fionn- It's Iraq's first taste of freedom in 30+ years.

LOL "30+ years", indeed. 1920 - 2003

You know what they say: a billion dollars here, a billion dollars there- after awhile you're talking about some real money - or years.

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: Beccy
Date: 10 Apr 03 - 01:46 PM

Oh robomatic- a punster after me own heart.

Now for taking on the bad governments alphabetically, hmmmmm... food for thought, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: artbrooks
Date: 10 Apr 03 - 05:03 PM

An interview with Marine Corporal Chin .

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: Peg
Date: 11 Apr 03 - 01:20 AM

Claymore:

Hey, weren't you just in the hospital, dude? Are you sure you want to get yourself all het up with this stuff? You might give yourself another heart attack...

But since you have been asshole enough to use my name in your tiresome diatribe, do not blame me if your blood pressure escalates and you end up back in the cardio ward.

"When the PC Pacifists go to the groin, and opine that our victories were due to killer faggots, I have to wonder... are they getting any? Can Peg be trusted with the pointy end of a dildo?
--If the first part of that statement refers to me, you have misunderstood what I said. I was referring to the morons at military.com's forum, and from what I can tell most of them are, like you, "armchair warriors" (that term so aptly used elsewhere in their thread).
Yes, that term does have a rather pathetic "all-Viagra'ed-up-and-no-place-to-go" sort of ring to it, but, well, men who are gung-ho military tend to be pretty lacking in the social graces, don't they? Guns and bazookas and launchers are lovely compensatory stand-ins for the impotence that comes with sexual self-loathing.

As for your wondering whether or not I'm "getting any," well, *I* have to wonder: what does my sex life have to do with my ability to identify the latent homosexuality among trigger-happy retards?

I can assure you, I am more woman than you'll ever have, and, probably in ways you would not even begin to understand, more man than you'll ever be...I do not need a big sword to hide behind.

I have nothing against sex toys, but I have never had the need to make the acquaintance of the "pointy end of a dildo." It does sound like you may well be more familiar with said business end than myself.

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: leprechaun
Date: 11 Apr 03 - 02:33 AM

The war's coming to an end and all you folkies are getting more vicious than ever!

Somebody's feelin' a lot of pain!

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: mg
Date: 11 Apr 03 - 10:00 AM

Peg, what you said about the military people, specifically men, was abusive and contrary to what I personally know about them. mg

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: RichM
Date: 11 Apr 03 - 10:32 AM

Time to cool the anger, folkies?

Lots of ugliness happening right in this forum. Questioning contributors sexual orientation, use of sexual stimulants, is irrelevant don't you think?

My american homosexual cousin who had an career in the military both as a combat soldier and as a medic in Vietnam, has his own opinions about that conflict---and about the present one. A tougher yet kinder dude than he I haven't met. No stereotype here!

And as to viagra use---it's a medication, used by people like me, whose circulatory impairments affect blood flow to my brain, my heart legs, and yes to my penis. So what???

Keep your arguments metaphorically and physically above the belt if you want to change minds! On the other hand if your purpose is simply to vent your anger and frustration, by all means vent on....

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: Peg
Date: 11 Apr 03 - 12:39 PM

for anyone for whom it was unclear (and it appears this needs clarification), my attribution of latent homosexual traits was intended ONLY to refer to the homophobic jackasses on the military.com forum; i.e. the ones who were referring to anti-war Mudcatters as "pussies" "sissies" "queerboy" etc. I was NOT generalizing about all   military personnel, but specifically the ones who are at this point in time NOT serving but find it necessary to criticize and threaten anti-war protestors...
I am not in the least homophobic (the very thought would be laughable, if you knew me personally), merely making a point about "manly men" who ARE homophobic, and the probable cause for some of it.

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 11 Apr 03 - 01:16 PM

Darn! I have two .jpg photos from the following story and don't know how to put them into the message. So I'm just sending the story along.

Was the toppling of the statue staged by the US?
A tale of two photos



First there is a photo from the BBC website showing the statue toppling. Below that is a long-shot in which you can see the whole of Fardus Square (conveniently located just opposite the Palestine Hotel where the international media are based), and the presence of at most around 200 people – most of them US troops (note the tanks and armoured vehicles) and assembled journalists.

The BBC website had the honesty to say that "dozens" of Iraqis were involved, but this grain of truth was swamped by the overwhelming impression of mass joy. The radio and TV were even worse.

The masses are no doubt glad to see the back of Saddam Hussein, but this was a US Army propaganda coup, staged for the benefit of the same journalists it had bombed the day previously, and which the British media have swallowed hook line and sinker. Shame on them.

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 Apr 03 - 03:05 PM

pdc, just send a link to the articles. I can't find them in a brief search of the site. Or, if you use Netscape to find the page, then view the source or page information, it will give you the location of the photo alone and you can send that link. You have to do an old-fashioned control c, control v to paste it sometimes, depending on your version of netscape and if it will let you right click or not.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Apr 03 - 03:14 PM

Don't post photos in threads. We haven't done that for a long time because of problems it presents. It can be done but they will end up being deleted.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Apr 03 - 03:20 PM

"Peg, what you said about the military people, specifically men, was abusive and contrary to what I personally know about them. mg "

Mary Garvey, have you taken a look at the military.com site? If you did, can you defend their stance? If you yourself belong to the military, I can imagine you have run into this kind of thing before- but ugly is ugly.

I hope sincerely that military women are a different breed of animal.

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 Apr 03 - 03:22 PM

Spaw, I think I tried experimenting with a photo in one of the html practice threads some months back and got a message back that I was using "forbidden html" or something along those lines. But there are occasions when the ability to post a thumbnail with an embedded link would be very nice.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Apr 03 - 03:31 PM

Yeah, Sage, I agree, but we ran into problems although now I don't recall what they were...been too long. I think bandwidth but more of a problem was that they tended to lockup threads or something like that. Just one of the things we gotta' live without.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: Amos
Date: 11 Apr 03 - 03:57 PM

Easy enough to post a text link to a remote photo. For example, recent research using a combination of qu-bit computation, quantum-field-analysis and Kyrillian photography has esatblished this technique for revealing what Spaw's Inner Being actually looks like...

A

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Apr 03 - 04:22 PM

I gotta' get off the alchohol..........

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: SeanM
Date: 11 Apr 03 - 04:26 PM

The pic claiming to be the "masses" of 20-30 or so surrounding the photos can be found at the www.informationclearinghouse.info website, along with the relevant story and much other information.

I can't wholeheartedly recommend the site - it has a very pronounced bias - but the picture DOES fit with what little "distance" shots are available of the statue toppling, and some of the other points they bring up (specifically that they spotted at least one person in the crowd bearing a VERY strong resemblance to a member the US puppet resistance group we flew in) are troubling.

With that, and everything else I've seen about the incident, I'm inclined to believe that the "celebration" was a press photo opp, staged for the benefit of the cameras. The "perimeter control" that appears to be going on (note the heavy traffic jam being held back by a tank in the upper left of the photo) leads me to suspect that regardless of anything else, the local command spotted an opportunity and wasn't going to let a potential unknown - the actual local mood, and the potential angry rants by relatives of the "acceptibe losses" - spoil what otherwise is a great (though falsified) PR coup.

In other news - hands up anyone who's suprised that India is claiming right of pre-emptive strike against Pakistan?

Reaping what is sown, part II

Favorite quote:
"Fernandes said he endorsed Foreign Minister Yashwant Sinha's recent comments that India had "a much better case to go for pre-emptive action against Pakistan than the United States has in Iraq."

This is two known nuclear powers soon to be slugging it out here. Who says comedy isn't alive in international affairs? And who else is just rolling on the floor laughing at the ranks of "unnamed foreign dignitaries" all announcing that they feel nuclear proliferation is now the ONLY way to guarantee national sovereignity?

Ah, the joys of warmongering. I think I'll go make a homemade explosive and blow my neighbor up - he's harboring roaches that invade my sovereign space, and I'm pretty certain this is only the first step before he tries moving in to my apartment and killing me.

M

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: GUEST,Claymore
Date: 11 Apr 03 - 06:10 PM

Peg, while I concede that my comment about the dildo was a bit over the top, I will quietly try and refute almost every thing else you had to say.

The military is FAR better educated than most of the folks that critcize them, with a graduate degree required for most promotions above Major, and at least a BS in many of the senior enlisted ranks.

They are FAR more pychologically stable than their civilian equivelents by almost any given statistically significant testing, with numerous tests adminstered to the senior staff due to top secret intelligence and technological requirements. You don't want a nutcase with his finger on the button.

Yes, some young nineteen years old kids can think they are being fired on and return fire into the hotel or a 21 year old pilot drop a bomb on some friendlies, but those are by FAR the exception. And since the service's select at every level of promotion, you must get promoted within a certain period of time, or you are separated from the service. The dummies and wackoids don't last.

As Mr. Clintons "Don't Ask Don't Tell" critics will note, there are more homosexuals being put out of the service now than were done prior to it's inception.

Since I was treated at a VA hospital, only the most clueless would want to ask if I wanted to "strap it on one more time", having served as a Marine Officer in Vietnam in 69 and was called up to serve in Israel during the Gulf War, and having been a police officer in the meantime. I really need no cum stain (not you, Peg) to question whether I would go, as many people on this website should have noted by now that I have never advocated anything I have never done in person, and many times at that.

And I was was actually stunned to think that you or any of the others would advocate that someone would have to meet some intellectual or moral test to critcize anyone.

"I was NOT generalizing about all military personnel, but specifically the ones who are at this point in time NOT serving but find it necessary to criticize and threaten anti-war protestors..."


   I fought for the rights of free speech, I am NOT serving now, and damn it, I plan to critcize the living hell of those idiots. (And frankly the only "threats" those folks face is a logic bomb...)

But your pop-psych-homo-diatribe was well off the mark, once you actually delve into it, and I suspect that you could never find any scientific study to back up what is obviously your opinion. I am certain that there are numerous young potential gays who enter the military, and a high percentage of those are separated from service. There may be some who continue on and serve their country in excellent ways, but very, very few end up with a gun in a foxhole, and survive.

Have a better weekend, Don

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: Peg
Date: 11 Apr 03 - 06:42 PM

Claymore wrote:

Peg, while I concede that my comment about the dildo was a bit over the top, I will quietly try and refute almost every thing else you had to say.
--good luck.


The military is FAR better educated than most of the folks that critcize them, with a graduate degree required for most promotions above Major, and at least a BS in many of the senior enlisted ranks.
--again, I was not generalizing about ALL military personnel; I was referring to the idiots in the Marines discussion forum at military.com...A sick little community. In just a few minutes of reading, I found people suggesting that one man poison a co-worker because, apparently he didn't vote; another man was being goaded toshoot a group of anti-war protestors who pissed him off; and another offered some lovely misogynistic comments about women. Can't imagine what I'd find if I had the stomach to read for more than five minutes...



They are FAR more pychologically stable than their civilian equivelents by almost any given statistically significant testing, with numerous tests adminstered to the senior staff due to top secret intelligence and technological requirements. You don't want a nutcase with his finger on the button.
--hmm, what about that guy that went a little psycho a couple weeks ago in Iraq? What happened there? What abotut he guy wearing the helmet that says "Kill 'em all?" I don't call indicative of that emotional stability.


Yes, some young nineteen years old kids can think they are being fired on and return fire into the hotel or a 21 year old pilot drop a bomb on some friendlies, but those are by FAR the exception. And since the service's select at every level of promotion, you must get promoted within a certain period of time, or you are separated from the service. The dummies and wackoids don't last.
--I hope you're right about that.

As Mr. Clintons "Don't Ask Don't Tell" critics will note, there are more homosexuals being put out of the service now than were done prior to it's inception.
--then I guess the policy isn't working, is it? Nice to see homophobia is still going strong in the armed forces...



Since I was treated at a VA hospital, only the most clueless would want to ask if I wanted to "strap it on one more time", having served as a Marine Officer in Vietnam in 69 and was called up to serve in Israel during the Gulf War, and having been a police officer in the meantime. I really need no cum stain (not you, Peg) to question whether I would go, as many people on this website should have noted by now that I have never advocated anything I have never done in person, and many times at that.
--I personally don't care if you want to serve or not. Don;t do it on my account, certainly. I think this war is unjust and is doing more to destabilize the world and harm the United States's economic and political position in the world than anything since, say, Hiroshima.

And I was was actually stunned to think that you or any of the others would advocate that someone would have to meet some intellectual or moral test to critcize anyone.
--I didn't suggest that. Anyone can say anything they want. But when they make threats of violence against those who hold anti-war views, it seems they should be held to some sort of standard. I find such threats cowardly, and thus was forced to make the observation that such cowards do not seem to be currently serving their country in the present crisis, yet feel justified in threatening those who consider the war effort to be wrong-headed.


"I was NOT generalizing about all military personnel, but specifically the ones who are at this point in time NOT serving but find it necessary to criticize and threaten anti-war protestors..."


   I fought for the rights of free speech, I am NOT serving now, and damn it, I plan to critcize the living hell of those idiots. (And frankly the only "threats" those folks face is a logic bomb...)
--what do you want, applause? I am a writer and a teacher by trade, and therefore *I* also fight for free speech...every day. I just don't need a gun to do it.


But your pop-psych-homo-diatribe was well off the mark, once you actually delve into it, and I suspect that you could never find any scientific study to back up what is obviously your opinion.
--not true...

I am certain that there are numerous young potential gays who enter the military, and a high percentage of those are separated from service. There may be some who continue on and serve their country in excellent ways, but very, very few end up with a gun in a foxhole, and survive.
--what are you saying? Gay people don't make good soldiers? That makes you homophobic too, doesn't it?


Have a better weekend, Don

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 11 Apr 03 - 07:24 PM

Statue took a nose dive? So did this thread. Once again a serious discussion turned into a slanging match, this time apparently involving editing from another forum.

There was an interview on the radio yesterday with an Iraqi gentleman, who quite rightly stated that there were only a few dozen Iraqi people in that square, in a country of millions. Not everyone feels brave enough to use their newly found right to free speech. One who did told the military this:

"Today, for the first time in my life I am excercising my right to freedom of speech and the first thing I want to say is this. Leave our country as soon as possible, so we can get on with our own lives."

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 11 Apr 03 - 07:35 PM

Liz-I'm very impressed with him. I expect that a lot of Iraqis are cheering the Americans for the same reason they cheered Saddam: they don't think they have a choice.

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 Apr 03 - 08:15 PM

The din of voices that shouted out from the military.com site were crude, stupid, and pushing their weight around in a place where opinions were largely contrary to theirs. They were invited over by a malcontent whom I hope has disappeared from our ranks. This is what they were saying amongst themselves. I found it troubling enough to write backchannel to an individual involved and wish him well and to be cautious.

There is no evidence of education or tolerance in that military.com group. They don't sound like brash young 19-year-old military recruits, they sound like older entrenched bigots. As far as I can tell Claymore spells better than most of them, but that's about all. Gender and sex had nothing to do with anything except it became a vehicle for insulting people. That only works if you feel threatened about your own orientation or sexuality, so that was a pretty insecure bunch over there. And since neither Claymore nor Peg apparently IS gay, it could be suggested that neither of them really knows what they're talking about, so should leave that subject alone.

Peg's mistake was in picking up the turd the military.com men threw onto the Mudcat thread and throwing it back at them. It splattered everybody as it hit the high wind of their hyperbole.

The toppling of the statue was a staged event, and it didn't take a rocket scientist to figure that one out. It looks to me like a lot of people need to approach this war with a high degree of skepticism. It would cut down on the arguments if everyone waited for "the rest of the story" (though in this case, I won't link to Paul Harvey, because he probably won't tell the rest of THIS kind of story).

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Apr 03 - 10:29 PM

Forum Lurker makes a good and probably valid point in the cheering Iraqia. Cheer 'em or get your butt shot. I saw those pictures of those Iraqis with their thumbs up. All I could think of was this was tehir way of saying "Don't shoot my butt!"

AQnd as for the statue being pulled down. Hey, ain't no PR comapany in the world that will get it to match our mental images of a limo in Dallas. Try as they will, just don't cut it. And now we learn that these same "happy-to-see-ya" Iraqia are living in totol chaos, stealing from and killing each other. Not exactly a real proud moment in American history to take the world most lethal military and destroy the third or fourth rate army of a country and then watch in despair as its survivors just get real uncivilized.

As for Peg and Claymore: Take it outside.... please. You're both cool folks in your own ways but..... geeeze.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Apr 03 - 12:12 AM

Peg - go screw Lepus and Greg - they need it - funny to watch them get all twisted up again! Dummer than a box of rocks - All three of you - - -

Yo momma have any children that lived?

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: Peg
Date: 12 Apr 03 - 01:34 AM

Dummer than a box of rocks - All three of you - - -
--doesn't that word have a B in it?

Stilly River Sage: Since when does one have to be a practicing anything to have knowledge or an opinion about it? You're not in the military yet offered an opinion on the military folk. Do YOU know what you're talking about? Does anyone?

...and Bobert: I don't need a lecture on how to behave in this forum. Honest. Not from you.

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Apr 03 - 03:43 PM

Peg,
One doesn't, of course, have to know what they're talking about in order to offer an opinion. I recognize the pop-psychology being offered here regarding sexuality as hackneyed stuff that smacks of Pysch 101 taken in about 1975.

As to offering an opinion on the miltary folk, I offered an opinion on the behavior of a group of louts who are members of an association of people not sponsored or sanctioned by the military who signed up to chat with each other about military topics. I told you nothing about my history or exposure to the military.

A second pass through those remarks should have led you to the conclusion that my last post was largely in your favor. You're preaching to the choir.

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 12 Apr 03 - 06:49 PM

Peg. I love your determination, I think your point of view is valid, I like your reasoning, and I dig your general tendency to say the things I wish I had said. Be awesome, find beauty, love more!

I don't get the excitement about the statue. The Iraqi troops that have surrendered are a distinct minority... Saddam is "missing" and the whole thing smells like a trap. Duh! If they are overpowered, what are their options? The Iraqis are quite experienced at the "whatever it takes" kind of war, and vendetta and revenge is common currency amoung the most militant. Public opinion is being manipulated, and we may have to pay an even higher price later on for it. I feel like we're all (common people everywhere) being offered up as some kind of corporate sacrifice... and no matter what the outcome, or how high the calling, this war IMHO, has been, and is still, a moral travesty. The worst aspects of the human condition are being encouraged for the selfish gain of a few, and the mass media has been bought off so we can't even get a decent exchange of opinions without bully bashers insulting their way to a world of brutality and ignorance. Let's wake up now! ttr

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: Peg
Date: 12 Apr 03 - 07:07 PM

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: Stilly River Sage - PM
Date: 12 Apr 03 - 03:43 PM

Stilly River Sage wrote:

Peg,
One doesn't, of course, have to know what they're talking about in order to offer an opinion. I recognize the pop-psychology being offered here regarding sexuality as hackneyed stuff that smacks of Pysch 101 taken in about 1975.
--my point exactly, which is why I was not sure why I had to keep explaining it...Hackneyed some of it may be but I do think it's true and stand by everything I said...


As to offering an opinion on the miltary folk, I offered an opinion on the behavior of a group of louts who are members of an association of people not sponsored or sanctioned by the military who signed up to chat with each other about military topics. I told you nothing about my history or exposure to the military.
--that's what I did as well, and I was in turn criticized for criticizing the military in general...I did not say you were in any way involved in the military; just trying to make a point that anyone can have an opinion on anything...


A second pass through those remarks should have led you to the conclusion that my last post was largely in your favor. You're preaching to the choir.
--It didn't read that way to me. It still doesn't. I suppose that could be my fault...but maybe not.

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: Gareth
Date: 12 Apr 03 - 07:21 PM

Question ?

Was the Statue demolished ?

Did Saddam Hussain rule by consent ?

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Apr 03 - 08:27 PM

Peg:

I love ya' and admire yer determination. That wasn't intended as a "lecture". Sorry that you found it offensive. No lecture...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: The statue took a nose dive (literally!)
From: Peg
Date: 13 Apr 03 - 01:37 AM

S'okay Bobert. Who could be mad at you??? :)