Has anyone the courage now? (Moses Asch)

Subject: RE: Has anyone the courage now?
From: Big Mick
Date: 18 Aug 98 - 06:21 PM

Kynoceph, I have great respect for the fact that you have obviously given this a great deal of thought. I am saddened that you are so hopeless in your belief that we can inspire social change. For all that didn't come of my generations' hope to change the world (yep, I'm one of those damn boomers), the one thing that was obvious is that social change comes when we can inspire people to act. And just as in the old times of my people, it is up to the bards to carry the message. I will agree that my generation took some very good causes, caused moderate amounts of good, and a fair amount of less than positive, change to occur. If you will start with the era of a songwriter/activist Joe Hill; move to the generation of Woody, Leadbelly, Odetta, and Pete; on to the Dylans, Theime, still Pete, Arlo, Utah Phillips, and so on; you will find that it is not about polluting the music with politics. It's about music being the cleansing agent for society. In each of those generations, it was the bards that gave a voice to the disenfranchised, disappointed constituencies. Sure there is a lot of preachy, whiney, and less than inspiring stuff. That is always the case. But it is up to us folkies to give voice to those that need it. We all play music for the sheer joy of it. But I believe that we have an obligation to lend our talents to that which we believe in. During a time in the history of this planet when the biggest threat to existence is the feeling of hopelessness that you expressed, that task becomes the most important thing that a folksinger can do.

Subject: RE: Has anyone the courage now?
From: northfolk
Date: 18 Aug 98 - 05:36 PM

Barbara, I really enjoyed the Cucurbit Song, Thanks. to all who say that political change can not be achieved, read Barbara's thread, then reflect on this... the Gay/Lesbian movement is maybe the most persecuted group of people in our time, yet they are able to put thousands of people into the streets, and into the voting booths, and have become a constituancy that is courted, by both all political parties(some more honestly than others) That is what works to shape political thought. The traditional power bases, Labor, Women, Blacks have to some degree bewen co-opted into a party that no longer reflects the same interest that it did many years ago. Most people don't vote. I keep hammering away because of my faith in people, and a knowledge that if some right wing nutcase ignites a "cause" within the 80% of the folks that aren't voting now, we'll all be listening to marshall music, and not talking about courage. Are there utopian models? I suspect all of the vanguard party types, they haven't built anything bigger than some small debate groups. And I suspect that the struggle for most of us will go on, whether there is a good government, or bad in place, because our love of people will never allow us to be satisfied, entirely.

Subject: RE: Has anyone the courage now?
From:
Date: 18 Aug 98 - 03:19 PM

The older I get, the less I believe that anything can be solved by political action. Many intelligent people are uninterested in politics because it seems like no matter what happens, corporate interests always win out.

I play music because I believe that music is a spiritual force. I don't believe that music should be used as a vehicle to spread political or religious ideology, because the music always suffers. This may be blasphemy to say here, but though Woody was good with words, his musical skills were less than admirable overall, and to be honest, I think probably Sam Cooke's "A Change Is Gonna Come" had more of an impact politically than most of what Woody Guthrie and Pete Seeger ever did. That's not to put down either Pete or Woody, but I don't think people are in a mood these days to be preached at or lectured to, and a lot of what Pete and Woody did comes off these days as excessively preachy, talky and terribly dull to listen to.

I personally am aware of the evil things that are happening as outlined above in previous posts, but to be honest I feel quite helpless to do anything about these issues. What actually can we do to to help the people starving in Iraq, for example? Give Saddam Hussein money? I think not...Even if we tried something, gigantic corporate interests would subvert our efforts with their vast financial resources.

It's all very well to shout about how we should mount the barricades and off the capitalist pigs, but there's no clear way to do it. And what would happen if we did? Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. A boss is a boss, whether he's a capitalist, a Maoist, a Buddhist, a born-again Christian or a hippie, a punk or a yuppie; all bosses are bosses.

I am not terribly hopeful about anything _but_ music. For me to infect music with the disease of politics would be wrong for me. I don't claim to have courage, nor do I claim to be a coward; I am who I am.

Subject: RE: Has anyone the courage now?
From: Doctor John
Date: 18 Aug 98 - 02:29 PM

There's a recording of Woody singing the "Private Property" verse on on of the S/F "Asch Recordings" CD's. Volume 1, I think. The "Shadow of the Steeple" verse doesn't appear to have been recorded.

Subject: RE: Has anyone the courage now?
From: Big Mick
Date: 18 Aug 98 - 01:27 PM

Boy, I shouldn't try to contribute to threads when I have been up 22 hours, have only four hours to sleep and have to go at it again.

Bseed, you have one of the verses that Woody was afraid would be lost in the sanitizing of his work, and the other is the one I posted. Source for that bit of information is the book, "Woody Guthrie, A Life". One of the photographs in that book is the handwritten lyrics to "This Land is your Land", showing the strikeouts and edits, and dated February 23, 1940. I blew it up on a copy machine and hung on my wall.

So just to recap, the two verses which get left out were v4 and v6 which were:

"And a big high wall there (?hard to read) that tried to stop me A sign was painted said: Private Property But on the back side, it didn't say nothing This land was made for you and me"

"One bright sunny morning, in the shadow of the steeple By the relief office, I saw my people As they stood hungry, I stood there wondering,if This land was made for you and me."

There is an asterisked comment at the bottom of the page that says "all you can write is what you are".

And Barbara, may you have twice the numerous blessings that you wish on others. You must be a very nice person.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: Has anyone the courage now?
From: Barbara
Date: 18 Aug 98 - 01:02 PM

"Monday, nothin'; Tuesday, nothin'; Wednesday a little more nothin'"? Well, maybe that does it for you. Like R.Crumb's "Why bother?"
I like songs that make us feel stronger, not weaker. Songs that take courage to sing are ones that pull us together somehow.
I liked the Fugs; they were funny, and sharp, and didn't Tuli Kupferberg write a book called "1001 Ways to Avoid the Draft"?
But I think they'd be easy to sing, except that I could never figure out what the tune was....
Blessings,
Barbara

Subject: RE: Has anyone the courage now?
From: Robert L. Pintner jr.
Date: 18 Aug 98 - 09:45 AM

Woody? The FUGS said it all!

Subject: RE: Has anyone the courage now?
From: BSeed
Date: 18 Aug 98 - 02:50 AM

woops. I just noticed that I wasn't still in "Movement Songs." I didn't start this one, but I've been living in it for a couple of weeks.--seed

Subject: RE: Has anyone the courage now?
From: BSeed
Date: 18 Aug 98 - 02:48 AM

Man, it's almost midnight and I just nuked a pizza and I'm hungry and tired and spent all night with my jam group practicing for an unpaid gig and none of the songs were vaguely political and there's lots of good stuff here on the thread I started and I want to respond but that pizza is callin' and bed is callin' and I'll have to get back on tomorrow night. And there's one thing wrong here: no one but Benjamin and I has posted any music. --seed

Subject: RE: Has anyone the courage now?
From: Ewan M
Date: 18 Aug 98 - 02:25 AM

Speaking of the possible results of political song - the other week for the first time in many years I stood in the immigration lane at a US airport, and suddenly panicked that they might not let me in on account of my CID file. During the run up to the Gulf War the media told us everybody but me and some pals was gungho for it. We met every week in my city's main square and sang a mixture of old and new songs for peace. Every other week we marched and sang. I eventually heard that in the US there had been much more protest. I'd be astonished if the singers and new songs were not there. Political song is for me of the time, and as much a badge as an instrument of persuasion. It is there to articulate and remind me of what I want and don't want. One Saturday morning as we marched down into the city centre singing a song I'd made / remade two hours earlier I saw a woman begin to have hysterics at the kerbside. Clearly she thought we were Iraqui sympathisers out to get her son Jimmy In The Army killed. I could not stop and talk, and the message of my new song that morning - "Bring them all home alive" - evaded her. For me political song is a support mechanism, or a rallying flag but not a recruiting banner for any party. When the issue gets hot enough, the songs come out. In my experience, anyway.

Subject: RE: Has anyone the courage now?
From: Big Mick
Date: 18 Aug 98 - 01:18 AM

Wow, how did I miss this thread. I, like northfolk, am a left of center labor organizer. I went through the period where I called myself "progressive" or anything else so that the other side couldn't peg me with a negative label. Until I realized the value in a label, and in your opposition spewing it out with venom. That is when I quit BSing myself and went back to being what I am, a left wing liberal trade unionist.

With regard to music that today's activists will listen to, when we write music that is relevant, they will listen. The various lists, beginning with Art's, gave us plenty of artists with relevant messages in the songs. The media has never given much time to songs with a political or social message unless it was cleaned and pretty for John and Jane Q. Public. Even Woody's music usually had two versions. And by the way, the song "This Land Is Your Land" was originally titled "God Blessed America". There were two verses in it that Woody was afraid would not be kept in in the future, and he was right, because you almost never hear them.

"One bright Sunday morning, in the shadow of the steeple, over by the relief office, I saw my people. And they were hungry, and they were wonderin', If this land was made for you and me".

The other verse is escaping me just now because it is after 1 a.m. and here I sit, but I will post it tomorrow.

Subject: RE: Has anyone the courage now?
From: Barbara
Date: 17 Aug 98 - 11:30 PM

Norfolk, the question of courage prompted me to post the Cucurbit Song. I collected it from the writer, delighted with the funny wry support of gay rights, and I have found that I lack the courage to perform it, most times and places anyway.
Blessings,
Barbara

Subject: RE: Has anyone the courage now?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 17 Aug 98 - 11:21 PM

Thanks Tim, I did think that Newfoundland was considered as part of the Maritimes, pretty soon I may not know where I'm from. While being a singer of traditional songs & a lovely box player to boot, Jim can sing his own songs as well & be none the worst for it, while those around him are asking "where'd you get that song from". Barry

Subject: RE: Has anyone the courage now?
From:
Date: 17 Aug 98 - 10:47 PM

Point of pedantic information, Jim Payne is not from the Maritimes. He is a Newfoundlander. He sings mostly trad songs, and very well too.

Subject: RE: Has anyone the courage now?
From: northfolk
Date: 17 Aug 98 - 08:37 PM

Chet, A number of people responded to this thread, some expressed their political ties to progressive or trade union politics, some expressed no favor with, or at least no hope for this political direction. A few talked about the perception of left right, distinctions being out of date. One equated "movement" with a bodily function. I hope I'm never on the barricades with him. In all, everyone did express an opinion, courageous in itself. My remarks about playing music, especially those who play music with any content, in barrooms, is that when you do that, you expose yourself to rejection,(they don't pay attention) or confrontation, (play a political anthem of any kind in a crowd of drunks) I rest my case. I myself am a left, labor activist, who is willing to confront the republican right, I think the labels still have value, I don't think that they were applied honestly, during the cold war era....Today most of us work longer harder, have less, are less secure, while a few have much more than they could ever use or need.(and many of them inherited it). everything that happens is the result of someones courage...so long.

Subject: RE: Has anyone the courage now?
From: Chet W.
Date: 17 Aug 98 - 05:15 PM

Dear northfolk, Please elaborate.

Chet W.

Subject: RE: Has anyone the courage now?
From: northfolk
Date: 16 Aug 98 - 11:33 PM

The answer seems clear, some have the courage to expose their politics, some have the courage to oppose their politics, some have the courage to propose new politics. Some have the courage to sing it on stage. others have the courage to sing in bars, where all folks are most vulnerable, either to opposition or indifference. Some have the courage to just be sarcastic. (me too, more than occasionally)

Subject: RE: Has anyone the courage now?
From: Chet W.
Date: 16 Aug 98 - 05:02 PM

Thanks. Chomsky very interesting.

Chet W.

Subject: RE: Has anyone the courage now?
From: pete M
Date: 15 Aug 98 - 01:20 AM

OK I'll try that again, dsylexic fingers and inability to read my own writing do not make for accurate transcription of addresses! Necessary Illusions

Subject: RE: Has anyone the courage now?
From: Pete M
Date: 15 Aug 98 - 01:02 AM

Chet,

a good starting place would be the Necessary Illusions site. (hope this comes out OK I haven't tried inserting a live link before.)

Pete M

Subject: RE: Has anyone the courage now?
From: Roger Himler
Date: 14 Aug 98 - 09:26 PM

Chet,

Click on Support the Mudcat. You will see an icon for Amazon.Com. Click on the "book" dot, then type in Chomsky in the search block and finally click on the "search" button. This will bring up several of Chomsky's works. If you order through this path, Mudcat gets some cash. SHAMELESS PLUG! Do good for yourself and good for the 'Cat. Long live the Mudcat!!! Oops, I'm getting carried away.

Roger in Baltimore

Subject: RE: Has anyone the courage now?
From: Chet W.
Date: 14 Aug 98 - 07:42 PM

Seed, my friend, you may be more right than me. I teach in a juvenile prison, so my guys might be a little farther into the process than yours, but maybe not. A thought that occurs to me is this; Remember the LA riots after that repulsive acquittal of the police officers that brutalized Rodney King? Did you see the live TV coverage? There was nothing political going on there. What I saw was joyful people of all races trying to steal as much beer and liqor as they could, TV cameras notwithstanding. If they were marching on city hall and burning it down, maybe it could have stood as political expression, but under the circumstances no one could say that it was political. Consider, for example, that two weeks after the LA riots the Detroit Pistons won the NBA championship and the people of Detroit expressed their political outrage in exactly the same way. It was not political, it was not a sports fan celebration. It was just taking advantage of an opportunity to steal. The logical soundtrack to these events, which would have to be Gangstsa rap, is very similar in its depth and sincerity to the actual events. Perhaps I am also being protective of my students here. Surely gangsta rap is not the only thing that leads them in such negative directions, but it is certainly one of them. I am not willing to accept some novel defense of freedom of political expression when the penalty for being wrong is the deaths of a generation of young people. If Al Capone had become the pop-culture figure of his time, producing the dominant music, movies, TV, video games, and even clothing, I think even the most liberal and compassionate among us would take a step back from condoning it. Please tell me more about your school. And would somebody give me a Chomsky reference so I can read what you're referring to?

Thanks, Chet W.

Subject: RE: Has anyone the courage now?
From: BSeed
Date: 14 Aug 98 - 12:35 AM

Chet: Rap may not be communicating your (or my) message, but it is sure as hell political. Of course I agree that the message is too often a very destructive one, and that the lifestyle of the rappers is a large part of that message. I also am a teacher in an inner city high school and have heard my students rapping some hoodlum's rap, violent, sexist, repugnant as hell (to me). But to deny that anarchic, kill-the-cops, brotha's gotta look out for himself (and maybe his homies) riffs are political expression is pretty narrow. The corporations promulgating the messages aren't, of course, doing it for the sake of presenting a political message, but to make a buck (unless you think they might be involved in a genocidal conspiracy to get black people to take themselves out of society).
Maybe what I'm concerned about is our inability to sell our message. Maybe we need a new form of charismatic expression (of course we don't want charismatic leaders--they always seem to end up taking their movements down with them). Is it impossible to produce music that will make people feel passion about what the global economy is doing to rip off everybody? Is it impossible to make people really care about the future of the planet? Maybe we should give Chomsky a guitar.

Subject: RE: Has anyone the courage now?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 14 Aug 98 - 12:32 AM

Yes, under capitalism, man exploits man! Under communism it's just the reverse! (women too.)

Subject: RE: Has anyone the courage now?
From: Pete M
Date: 13 Aug 98 - 09:16 PM

None at all Chet, unless you are a conservative stock holder.

Unfortunately there will always be people willing to serve a cause if it leads to their own agrandisement, because thats what they are told to do, or because they are told that it is in (insert country)'s best interest. What makes it doubly dfficult to counteract is that these people are not monsters, just the guy next door. If you want to eradicate a race of "sub humans", you don't need psycopaths, just efficient civil servants.

As to why "the way things are" is not more widely discussed or challenged I recommend a look at Noam Chomsky's Propoganda model.

Pete M

Subject: RE: Has anyone the courage now?
From: Chet W.
Date: 13 Aug 98 - 08:38 PM

All for political and social songs, but please don't confuse the "Rap Artists" that somebody mentioned above with politics. As far as I can tell (and I'm known for being pretty broad-minded) there is not the slightest political content in the typical "gangsta rap" song, nor in the cultural mess that surrounds it. The "Gangstas" are just what their self-given name says, criminals out to make money, covering themselves in gold while my teenage students sit in jail, most of them for most of their lives, joyfully and violently spitting out their (the rappers') lyrics. We've had this discussion before and it gets hot and emotional fast, but I can't let such a misconceived comment go by without giving it a little light of day. Gangsta rap is the ultimate corporatization of music; It shows that the corporations and the "artists" are willing to endanger the lives of children in order to get their money. Sony and the Brothers Warner don't seem to have any problem with that, do they? But something that might upset the conservatives that elect politicians and buy shares of stock - the public has to be protected from that stuff. You tell me what makes sense here.

Passionately, Chet W.

Subject: RE: Has anyone the courage now?
From: BSeed
Date: 13 Aug 98 - 07:55 PM

Thanks, Barbara--I'm happy to have the correction (the meaning is still the same, no?). --seed

Subject: RE: Has anyone the courage now?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 13 Aug 98 - 07:27 PM

In the same vein as the above thread, take a listen to Jim Paine from the Canadian Maritimes. He's sings of the local fishermens' plight, "Empty Nets", being only one of his many gems. Barry

Subject: RE: Has anyone the courage now?
From: Pete M
Date: 13 Aug 98 - 07:07 PM

An interesting point Jon. I'm not familiar with the area or conditions under which the local ranchers have utilised the land so can't comment directly. However the equivalent in the UK was the vast tracks of private grouse moors, and the long struggle for public access to these is well documented, not the least by Ewan MacColl's "Manchester Rambler".

Here in NZ there also appears to be lot of conflict between farmers, recreational land users of varying types, and conservationists. It seems to me that unless you have a very specific purpose such as preserving a unique habitat, which if the land had been used for farming is most unlikely, the only sensible approach is shared use, requiring common sense and tolerance on all sides (its very rarely a two sided question). Certainly the farmers may have to modify their techniques and point of view about the interaction of people and stock, and recreational users may have to accept some restrictions on where and when they go, but both parties gain from the understanding. As a concrete example of how this works I would cite my experience in the UK where sheep and cattle are grazed on open moorland and upland, and have become completely inured to the presence of people and dogs, unlike in NZ where sheep will run themselves into trouble at the sight of a dog or person, and farmers perpetuate the problem by seeking to keep recreational users from their land . Similarly when in the 60's there was an outbreak of foot and mouth in the Lake District, recreational users voluntarily refrained from using the fells until the outbreak was over.

Pete M

Subject: RE: Has anyone the courage now?
From: Jon W.
Date: 13 Aug 98 - 12:07 PM

Ironically, in my state many people feel that it's "folks" like the Sierra Club and the Southern Utah Wilderness Alliance (Sierra Club's local surrogates), along with their allies in Washington, who are trying to put up the "No Trespassing" signs. The latest figures are 8.9 Million acres of proposed wilderness (meaning you can't go there except on foot or horseback), much of which has been depended on by ranchers for their livelyhood. Does anyone have the courage to look at conflicting points of view?

Jon W.

Subject: RE: Has anyone the courage now?
From: Barbara
Date: 13 Aug 98 - 03:46 AM

B'seed, the verse of This Land is Your Land that I know goes:
As I roamed and rambled that ribbon of highway
I came upon a sign that said "No Trespassing"
But the other side, it didn't say nothing;
That SIDE was made for you and me.
Blessings,
Barbara

Subject: RE: Has anyone the courage now?
From: Moira Cameron
Date: 12 Aug 98 - 09:55 PM

No one has mentioned my personal favourite singer/songwriter who is still doing his stuff--Leon Rosselson. I admire his courage, not just for the songs he has written, but for the fact he continues to perform them, as he has done now for 30 years.

I greatly appreciate songwriters like him for providing people like me (who don't tend to have the writer's knack) with excellent material to perform.

As long as there are people to listen to these songs, I will continue to sing them.

Subject: RE: Has anyone the courage now?
From: BSeed
Date: 01 Aug 98 - 09:40 PM

If all this heavy gunk has been getting you down, if your soul needs refreshing, check out the thread Where is Spancil Hill.

Subject: RE: Has anyone the courage now?
From: BSeed
Date: 01 Aug 98 - 09:37 PM

Art, Are the "pro-life" people who want kids to Just Say No to sex anti sementic? --seed

Subject: RE: Has anyone the courage now?
From: Jenny
Date: 01 Aug 98 - 04:33 PM

Art ... Well said! I BELIEVE that much of what is said by others is just semantics. I also believe that the word "choice" is the key operative in living one's life and it is imperative that we protect our freedom of choice. And I'm really tired of hearing the word "choice" used only as it applies to the word "abortion." I must be getting dotty in my old age ... I read some of my responses to these threads and think " that person must be a card-carrying, marching, picketing, leftist radical." Ain't it grand ...! Jenny

Subject: RE: Has anyone the courage now?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 01 Aug 98 - 03:34 PM

As in the film CONTACT, it often, as Tim says sort of, comes down to what we choose to BELIEVE! As in this thread, the discussions are interesting until they get tedious. I wonder why it is that ALWAYS, no matter how much I might agree with a movement or a politician or an ism or a religion, it's beautiful and energetic in it's infancy but when it ages, not necessarily gracefully, everyone starts goose-stepping and mouthing slogans instead of thoughts? That's generally when I choose to walk away. Bumper-sticker patriotism or whatever takes over. Is this disillusionment enough to make one anti-semantic?? (Hey, there's a new bumper sticker for ya!)
Yep, humor is the last refuge for the doomed!!!

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Has anyone the courage now?
From:
Date: 01 Aug 98 - 01:47 PM

I don't believe in left or right, which are outmoded terms, if they were ever accurate to begin with. Just look what that artificial division has done to American public life. The viciousness, the pettiness, the inhuman nastiness of the assaults by both parties, the desire to lock people up or humiliate them publicly! It is a wonder that any business gets done at all in the US, or that any decent human being would ever contemplate running for political office.

My opinions and beliefs don't come in a package. That's why I don't read American magazines anymore. They take a "left" or "right" stance, and defend their positions to the most absurd lengths. Mother Jones on one hand, and the National Review on the other, come to mind in this regard. I generally get my world news from British magazines these days, which tend to be more open-minded and thoughtful. (And better written, for that matter.)

Just look at the idiotic debate going on now rec.music.folk about the Lilith Fair, wasting good band width. The Mother Jonesers and the National Reviewers are duking it out in a most tedious fashion, like it was one of the political chat rooms on AOL.

Subject: RE: Has anyone the courage now?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 31 Jul 98 - 12:10 AM

There are still & hopefully always will be many good singers/writers of songs that push the cause that others hold dear, it may be harder to hear when there's not common causes that unites masses, say a full blown police action in some 3rd world nation, or a red scare. On the other hand a good cause doesn't mean a good song & in todays folk music scene I think there are more good causes to write about than there are good songwriters writing (that we get to hearing) about them (oh oh). Now let me explain that. When we had the likes of Woody & Pete & the many others who fell under the gun of the times, the cost of their courage could be jail, blacklisting & more & some paid that price & sang & to hell with the rest & when the issues became greater the likes of Dylan, Paxton & others got heard, today it's more money than cause (less cause, more money) & those that are really singing causes aren't making money, they starve for the cause as always & seldom get heard, as always, and by the same grinding wheel are silenced quietly. So if you're writing great songs of passion for one cause or another, don't be ready to give up the day job soon (is this another way/reason to quiet protest music), with big issues there's not alot of support. I really do think there are many great singer/writers around today, but feel they're not as good at PR as they are at what they do best & we get to hear more of what those that are good at PR do than we should, with the exception of the exceptional. OK I'll stop. Barry

Subject: RE: Has anyone the courage now?
From: BSeed
Date: 30 Jul 98 - 10:46 PM

Hi, Roger, and hi, Art: good to hear from you both again. Moving from outrage to outrageous, another source of political commentary, funny as hell, and performed by some wonderful musicians and singers: The Austin Lounge Lizards. I saw them in Berkeley a couple of years ago, some great stuff (their song "Half a Man": "I listen to Rush Limbaugh and it helps me ease the pain; he makes perfect sense to a man with half a brain." Oh, and Tom Paxton is still performing, still raising hell, and still raising spirits.

Subject: RE: Has anyone the courage now?
From: Jenny
Date: 30 Jul 98 - 10:38 PM

It seems to me that anyone who has responded vehemently to this thread has a tremendous amount of courage ... or perhaps it is just a vent of rage?!? Be careful, now, since it looks like the country is moving more and more towards the ultra conservative, might they bring back blacklisting? What a horrible thought. This is a bit off the subject perhaps, but it has always been interesting to me that those individuals who are militant anti-abortionists are the same individuals who want to be in the audience when they throw the switch on the electric chair; and those individuals who will not eat meat and wear leather are the same individuals who are pro-abortion. It does make one think. Maybe it's safer to be singing about lost wars, lost souls, the hungry, and the homeless. I guess I've eclipsed the rites of passage since I used to have these thoughts primarily when I smoked pot. (Do you think the fbi and/or the cia monitors the 'cat forum?) jenny

Subject: RE: Has anyone the courage now?
From: Roger Himler
Date: 30 Jul 98 - 10:11 PM

I don't sing many "political" songs. I believe music is an extremely powerful force for the dissemination of ideas. A good song can get you singing about ideas that you really don't agree with. Witness the music in advertisements. Do you ever find yourself whistling the tune of a product you detest? The Nazi's had some wonderful tunes!

So, I respect the power of music. I don't profess to know the one way the world should be. I hope my music helps me and perhaps my audience understand our own humanity.

I understand those who proselytize with their music. It is an excellent way to spread ideas. I encourage those who want to do so, to continue it and I will be happy to listen (and sing along) to many of those who have been mentioned earlier in this thread. There are many ways to try and make this world a better world. And each of them requires some type of courage.

Certainly one courageous way is to write and sing songs about what one believes.

Roger from Baltimore

Subject: RE: Has anyone the courage now?
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 30 Jul 98 - 09:37 PM

Some days it takes great courage just to get up and face the stresses in store. Music is one of the ways I escape from the outrage. I don't need to personally verbalize this in my songs, but I don't feel the world's problems any less because I play "Cluck Old Hen" and "You Are My Flower." I love this simple music and tend to find the singer-songwriter intellectualization interesting (sometimes) but not especially engaging.

Does anyone have the courage? I think we all do, although most of us seldom use it. I'm feeling pretty courageous for posting this response for all the world to read. Some battles are small ones.

Subject: RE: Has anyone the courage now?
From: BSeed
Date: 30 Jul 98 - 07:27 PM

Yes, CNN withdrew the story about gassing the deserters, but its producers still stand by it, had put a couple of years into getting documentation for it, collecting interviews. It's the same thing as Gary Webb's revelations about crack in L.A.--his paper, the San Jose Mercury News, stopped his series after a couple of installments and after the New York Times and Washington Post dismissed it (without disputing any of Webb's documentation), but recently the Times has been treating it with much more respect. I suspect we have not heard the last about the sarin, either, and I know that what has surfaced regarding it is much more worthy of the expense of a special prosecutor than is Clinton's zipper problem.

Subject: RE: Has anyone the courage now?
From:
Date: 30 Jul 98 - 06:03 PM

The Monkees were harmless pop. I actually like their version of that song that Carol King wrote for them.

Most union activists I know listen to rock and roll, and country and western music. I haven't heard too much Woody Guthrie in any union hall bar I've been into. Some of the older folks listen to Motown maybe, or even Chicago blues. They have a few old tunes they trot out to chant or sing at demonstrations, but supporters of the folk arts they ain't. In fact, put some on when they are around and listen to the howls for Stevie Ray Vaughn (who I happen to like too, BTW). And most union folk I know, who would be the first on the picket line in any weather if called out, would roll their eyes in pain at the sound of someone strumming earnest songs of protest, unless perhaps it was a very funny song.

The poison gas story was withdrawn by CNN and an apology issed to Nixon's family. That settles it for me, because I doubt Ted Turner would ever do such a thing without the clearest reason. I trust no man who bowdlerizes Bugs Bunny.

Subject: RE: Has anyone the courage now?
From: northfolk
Date: 30 Jul 98 - 05:12 PM

A few years back, I heard a discussion about the corporatization of our culture. Each day that passes frustrates me more about the influence that TV and Radio have over the information that we process. Even the keyboard democracy available in front of me right now is endangered, because like TV, in its infancy, there is a potential for corporate america to seize control, of how we use this and who gets access. I remember a Pete Seeger story, about beans in a boat, swelling up and sinking the boat, ( no, I am not going to repeat the analogy) it's in the Incompleat Folksinger. All who are concerned must make there presence known. Many of the folks listed are doing that, in song. nobody knew when any of the important political movements of our time would reach "critical mass", but those building the movement will be the ones with credibility, to lead it. signed, one more bean

Subject: RE: Has anyone the courage now?
From: Doctor John
Date: 30 Jul 98 - 04:23 PM

I like your replies but I meant a different sense ... There's a lot of good stuff out there but it's being sat on by dogs in mangers who won't release it. Collectors can't buy it and the artists who recorded good honest stuff (England's best!)don't get the royalties. If a record company withdraws a title surely the copyright should revert solely to the artist. Now we need someone like Moe Asch who will copy a mint LP and release the music to us on CD and pay the artist royalties and damn the company who have withdrawn or won't release the originals. Yes I agree the music is sanitized all the time. Did you hear that interview with Pete Seeger on the Mike Harding show?!!I saw two young girls in Exeter a while back singing "This Land..." sweetly and playing a 12 stringer with 6 strings. "Where did you get that", said I. "From this book", said one. "What about the last two verses?" "There aren't any more" "Do you know who wrote it?" "No".

Subject: RE: Has anyone the courage now?
From: BSeed
Date: 30 Jul 98 - 12:57 AM

Yeah, but... Thursday nights at the Fifth String (a folk instrument store) in Berkeley a dozen or so of good pickers, fiddlers, pluckers, singers, etc., get together and play: lots of fiddle tunes, bluegrass ballads, gospel songs, etc. Nothing remotely political unless I bring it. I introduced a song I wrote about the threat to resume bombing in Iraq; we played it, lots of nice breaks, I sang it, people said "nice song, Charlie." Then on to the Redhaired Boy or Cabin on the Hill. A few weeks earlier I chose as my song Joe McDonald's "I Feel Like I'm Fixin' to Die Rag." One person knew it, said "Jeez, I haven't played that one for twenty years." On to "The Great Speckled Bird" or something. Pretty much the same with the people I play with regularly: sometimes called the Point Isabel Poodle Players (a couple of our members have poodles--I met them at the dog park, we've been playing weekly ever since). I've suggested other names: "Bond and the Bail Jumpers" and "the Born-Once Gospel Singers." The group has grown from three to now seven or eight. They said they liked my song, and we play it every now and then, then we go back to "Free Grace," a medley of "Cripple-Creek" and "Old Joe Clark," "I'll Fly Away," etc. One of our members is an anti-death penalty activist but the closest thing we do to a song on that theme is "The Green Green Grass of Home." If we do "This Land is Your Land," I have to jump in to keep the song from ending without the one verse that tells what the song is really about: "As I was walkin' that ribbon of highway, I came to a sign that said "Private Property, but on the other side, it didn't say nothin', this land is made for you and me." I don't know why I'm rambling on but I just feel nobody much gives a damn, despite starving children in Iraq, U.S. backed genocide in East Timor, revelations of the use of depleted uranium shells in Iraq and their likely relationship to Gulf War Syndrome, not to mention the high rate of exotic cancers among the children of southern Iraq, Cia crack in Los Angeles, the possible use of sarin gas against possible deserters in Vietnam, decades of support of death squads in Central America, on and on, and "Where's the outrage?"

Subject: RE: Has anyone the courage now?
From: northfolk
Date: 30 Jul 98 - 12:02 AM

Think I should add: Get out to your local picket line or activist organization, Union hall and even an occasional church basement, these folks are playing to the same audience that Woody and Pete played to. They wouldn't be what you say you are looking for if they were just "on the radio" let me add Steve Earle, to my previous post....

Subject: RE: Has anyone the courage now?
From: northfolk
Date: 29 Jul 98 - 11:56 PM

Like to add a couple of folks to Art's already formidable list, Charlie King, Anne Feeney, and Len Wallace, are all dangerous in the best possible sense. Terrific singers, songwriters, willing to say what needs to be said.

Subject: RE: Has anyone the courage now?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 29 Jul 98 - 11:43 PM

SI KAHN sure as hell is writing hard-hitting songs.---some of Sal Rogers & Cathy Fink and Marcy Marxer---Magpie too (Terry Leonino & Greg Artzner)J.McCutcheon sometimes & Pete Seeger retrospective CD collections. Larry Penn, a retired trucker and union man from Milwaukee, is saying very important things.---Tom Juravich, others too.

Where are they, you ask? They're singing up a storm all over the country---but the damn media sure won't get behind or notice anybody with a real message. The Spice Girls and Monica is all they notice now---and CD collections of the damn Monkees!.

Woody & Pete never had real attention either---not until the former was safely inside a hospital or dead! Pete still does what he can but elder statesmen, like Pete, are given awards that slide 'em into the mainstream and sanitize 'em. No matter what serious things Pete is still saying (AND HE SURELY IS) all the media shows the world is him getting a Grammy! Who knows anything at all about Noam Chomsky who continues to say brilliant things that are applauded by the world---except in his own country--the U.S. of A.--where he's kept on the margins of political thought by being IGNORED!!Punch in his name on any search engine and you'll have enough brilliant stuff to keep ya busy reading for 3 weeks.

As Bruce (U.Utah) Phillips is fond of saying, "If elections could really change anything, they'd be illegal!"

Art Thieme