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BS: Iraqi National Museum Looted

Peter T. 21 Apr 03 - 07:19 PM
McGrath of Harlow 21 Apr 03 - 06:56 PM
artbrooks 21 Apr 03 - 05:47 PM
artbrooks 21 Apr 03 - 05:46 PM
*daylia* 21 Apr 03 - 09:15 AM
McGrath of Harlow 19 Apr 03 - 02:51 PM
artbrooks 19 Apr 03 - 10:07 AM
McGrath of Harlow 19 Apr 03 - 09:22 AM
Metchosin 19 Apr 03 - 08:22 AM
artbrooks 19 Apr 03 - 07:23 AM
Metchosin 19 Apr 03 - 07:16 AM
CarolC 18 Apr 03 - 11:08 PM
artbrooks 18 Apr 03 - 07:34 PM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Apr 03 - 07:06 PM
GUEST, heric 18 Apr 03 - 06:59 PM
artbrooks 18 Apr 03 - 06:44 PM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Apr 03 - 04:24 PM
CarolC 18 Apr 03 - 04:14 PM
GUEST 18 Apr 03 - 04:05 PM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Apr 03 - 01:18 PM
GUEST, heric 18 Apr 03 - 12:27 PM
*daylia* 18 Apr 03 - 12:25 PM
GUEST, heric 18 Apr 03 - 12:16 PM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Apr 03 - 05:23 AM
Alba 17 Apr 03 - 07:10 PM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Apr 03 - 06:49 PM
CarolC 17 Apr 03 - 02:26 PM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Apr 03 - 02:23 PM
CarolC 17 Apr 03 - 02:22 PM
GUEST, heric 17 Apr 03 - 02:05 PM
CarolC 17 Apr 03 - 01:57 PM
GUEST, heric 17 Apr 03 - 01:54 PM
CarolC 17 Apr 03 - 01:40 PM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Apr 03 - 01:26 PM
harvey andrews 17 Apr 03 - 01:14 PM
CarolC 17 Apr 03 - 12:37 PM
Jim the Bart 17 Apr 03 - 12:21 PM
JenEllen 17 Apr 03 - 11:25 AM
Bagpuss 17 Apr 03 - 05:31 AM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Apr 03 - 04:57 AM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Apr 03 - 04:00 AM
Peg 17 Apr 03 - 02:52 AM
McGrath of Harlow 16 Apr 03 - 08:10 PM
Peter T. 16 Apr 03 - 08:00 PM
McGrath of Harlow 16 Apr 03 - 06:07 PM
harvey andrews 16 Apr 03 - 06:03 PM
CarolC 16 Apr 03 - 05:58 PM
harvey andrews 16 Apr 03 - 05:53 PM
artbrooks 16 Apr 03 - 05:41 PM
harvey andrews 16 Apr 03 - 05:29 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi National Museum Looted
From: Peter T.
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 07:19 PM

This week's Spectator, not exactly a left wing magazine, has another very unsettling article about the ACCP -- they actually got to meet the President, big money people. yours, Peter T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi National Museum Looted
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 06:56 PM

It's not "just" the museum in Baghdad - here is an article from Monday's Daily Telegraph (a decidedly Conservative paper, I point out in case Doug is reading the thread),about what has happened in Babylon - Looters strip Babylon palace

Here's a poignant quote: Iraqi museum managers and archaeologists had moved many of the cherished heirlooms of Babylon into the vaults of Baghdad's National Museum to protect them, only to see them looted the day US marines stormed the capital.


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi National Museum Looted
From: artbrooks
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 05:47 PM

Sorry...meant to add, the link is here, along with some other interesting information.


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi National Museum Looted
From: artbrooks
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 05:46 PM

That statement has been disavoued by the organization's President.
The rumour that the US is planning to "liberalise" Iraq's tough laws on the export of antiquities, widely reported in the international press, derived from a meeting in Washington on 24 January between the American Council for Cultural Policy (a privately funded association of collectors and lawyers) and Pentagon and State Department officials.

The council's treasurer, William Pearlstein, was later quoted in the US magazine Science as describing Iraq's laws as "retentionist", and he wanted to see "some objects certified for export."

American Council for Cultural Policy president Ashton Hawkins told The Art Newspaper that what Mr Pearlstein had done was to voice his personal opinion after the meeting, and that this, did not represent council policy. He insisted that "there had been no discussion of Iraqi law" at the Washington meeting.


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi National Museum Looted
From: *daylia*
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 09:15 AM

I found this article quite thought-provoking. Apparently the ACCP (American Council for Cultural Antiquities), a coalition of art lawyers and antiquities dealers whose members include "collectors and lawyers with chequered histories in collecting valuable artefacts, including alleged exhibitions of Nazi loot," secured a meeting with the US Defense and State Department back in January. This group had been working since 2001 to ease legal restrictions on the removal of Iraqi artifacts from the country after a coalition victory.

"The ACCP's agenda is to encourage the collecting of antiquities through weakening the laws of archaeologically-rich nations and eliminating national ownership of antiquities to allow for easier export ... The ACCP has caused deep unease among archaeologists since its creation in 2001."

More information at this Sunday Herald article.

daylia


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi National Museum Looted
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 02:51 PM

Including the consequences of the times where he has delegated the decision-making, and hasn't gone into the fine details. That's how it should be - except it doesn't seem to work that way. When something goes wrong, the buck stops down at a pretty junior level.


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi National Museum Looted
From: artbrooks
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 10:07 AM

Commanders have staffs. The purpose of a staff member is to provide advise. The commander retains full responsibility for the consequences of following that advise, good or bad.


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi National Museum Looted
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 09:22 AM

Presumably the idea of General Franks was to cover his back and pass on the legal responsibility. Sort of pre-emptive variant on "I was only obeying orders". A man with a clear idea of how to rise in the system and keep out iof trouble - and it worked for him.

"Chilling" is indeed the word.


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi National Museum Looted
From: Metchosin
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 08:22 AM

artbrooks, no doubt there, but there does seem to be this mistaken belief that the armed forces of western societies are somehow more civilized and adhere to the tenets of international laws.

The point being, that to declare no quarter given is a no-no under international law; whether one carries out the total slaughter with a flame thrower or a bulldozer is of little distinction to me. Although I did notice you referred to "getting enemy troops out of bunkers" However, there must have been some question in Frank's mind to request a clarification regarding the legality of using bulldozers to bury the "enemy" alive or else why bother asking.


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi National Museum Looted
From: artbrooks
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 07:23 AM

And the point would be that this is somehow worse than the "traditional" way of getting enemy troops out of bunkers-the flamethrower? War sucks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi National Museum Looted
From: Metchosin
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 07:16 AM

I was looking for more information regarding the Geneva Convention when I stumbled upon this chilling tidbit. Apparently US forces are in contact with military lawyers during combat, to determine what can and cannot done when engaging the enemy. According to their interpretation the following was just fine with them:

"Col. Borch has written several books, including his 2001 'Judge Advocates in Combat,' in which he reported that, during the 1991 Gulf war, Army Gen. Tommy Franks radioed a ranking military legal officer to ask whether burying the enemy alive in his own trenches was permitted under the Law of War." Gen. Franks told the judge advocate general that troops were using bulldozers and he could "stop it now" if it was a war crime. But, Col. Borch wrote, the general was assured that it was lawful and was advised to mark sites so the Red Cross could retrieve bodies."
Washington Times Article

I guess smothering them to death might be considered easier and cheaper than blowing them to bits and it certainly was a quick solution regarding dealing with Chapter II, Articles 17 and 18 of the Geneva Convention, but for some reason it made my skin crawl. Perhaps because it seems to contravene an even earlier document:

Laws and Customs of War on Land (Hague IV); October 18, 1907
SECTION II
HOSTILITIES
CHAPTER I
Means of Injuring the Enemy,
Sieges, and bombardments
Article 23

TO DECLARE THAT NO QUARTER WILL BE GIVEN

Interesting too, speaking of the Geneva Convention, that Army Col. Frederick L. Borch III is the top contender to lead the prosecution staff, regarding the POWs at Guantanamo Bay.


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi National Museum Looted
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Apr 03 - 11:08 PM

they really only apply to nations that have signed them

This means that they apply to the behavior of those who signed them. So if the US signed the treaty, it is bound by it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi National Museum Looted
From: artbrooks
Date: 18 Apr 03 - 07:34 PM

Thank you, heric...it seems as if that may apply. International treaties should be examined with caution, since they really only apply to nations that have signed them. BTW, it seems that museum staffers and the museum director have some disagreements regarding what may have been taken and what removed elsewhere for safekeeping...article here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi National Museum Looted
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Apr 03 - 07:06 PM

Here is a page by Amnesty about the duties of occupying powers in this context - Iraq - Responsibilities of the occupying powers.

While the Fourth Geneva Convention is part of the legal framework, there is a lot more to it than that. What I said was oversimplified.


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi National Museum Looted
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 18 Apr 03 - 06:59 PM

Wow that's quite a site Mr. Brooks.

Here's one: Each High Contracting Party undertakes to prevent the exportation, from a territory occupied by it during an armed conflict, of cultural property as defined in Article 1 of the Convention for the Protection of Cultural Property in the Event of Armed Conflict, signed at The Hague on 14 May 1954.
(Protocol para. 1)

See, also:

Resolution I

The Conference expresses the hope that the competent organs of the United Nations should decide, in the event of military action being taken in implementation of the Charter, to ensure application of the provisions of the Convention by the armed forces taking part in such action.

See, also Resolution II, hoping that each signatory will have qualified specialists on this issue in place for advisement.

http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/b0d5f4c1f4b8102041256739003e6366/6fa17d44aaba6394c12563cd0051d062?OpenDocument


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi National Museum Looted
From: artbrooks
Date: 18 Apr 03 - 06:44 PM

Not that I think that the "occupying power" doesn't have some responsibilities for maintaining order, but could somebody tell me which Article in which Geneva Convention states that it has the responsibility to guard museums and to provide social work services? I looked and couldn't find it. The Geneva Conventions (there are 4 plus 2 Additions) are here.

What the applicable treaty (which is the Convention for the Protection of Cultural Property in the Event of Armed Conflict, 1954) says is as follows: Art. 5. 1. Any High Contracting Party in occupation of the whole or part of the territory of another High Contracting Party shall as far as possible support the competent national authorities of the occupied country in safeguarding and preserving its cultural property. Iraq did not sign this, the US and UK did.

It might, BTW, be interesting to take a look at the international treaties which Iraq has signed, here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi National Museum Looted
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Apr 03 - 04:24 PM

Being "social workers and policemen" - ie taking on responsibility for civil society as necessary - is part of the job of an army when it occupies another country. It's a legal requirement under the Geneva Conventions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi National Museum Looted
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Apr 03 - 04:14 PM

The British forces were up to the job. They successfully guarded the museum(s) in their sector. Are they more capable than the US forces or something, or do they just have better leadership?


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi National Museum Looted
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Apr 03 - 04:05 PM

The military were not sent into Iraq to be social workers or policemen. Only targets of military significance were protected. Namely the oil ministry (the main source of future income for Iraq) was one, and the oilfields and service facilities. Hospitals and museums etc are now being assisted. The threat of suicide bombers could place such facilities at risk of attack if US servicmen guarded them, and this was one factor that contributed to the difficulty of providing security.


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi National Museum Looted
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Apr 03 - 01:18 PM

If they'd put some kind of security in place, but the clever professionals employed by the millionaire collectors had fooled them, that might be some kind of excuse. But since there doesn't appear to have been any attempt by the occupying army to protect the buildings in question or their contents, it doesn't really make any difference whatsoever. "I know I didn't bother to shut my front door, but you can't blame me for the burgalry - the burglar could very likely have been able to pick the lock anyway."

"Sophisticated malfeasance"? I imagine that would be if there was a suggestion that it was a put up job by people high up in the army to obtain the loot, with them arranging not to have guards on the doors, and trashing the place as a cover up. I know that kind of thing is a standard plot in Hollywood caper movies, where it's all presented as a jolly game, but I'm inclined to doubt if anything as sophisticated as that is involved.


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi National Museum Looted
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 18 Apr 03 - 12:27 PM

Let me be clear. I don't mean that the sophisticated aspects of the theft absolve or excuse the US failure to guard against the loss. I just mean that the issues addressed in the Guardian article, i.e., sophisticated aspects to the thefts does not, to me, make the US look even worse on this issue. Failure to guard against the obvious warrants blame; failure to guard against sophisticated theft is less blameworhty.

(Neither, I hope, do you interpret and therefore reference this Guardian article for demonstrating sophisticated malfeasance by the US.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi National Museum Looted
From: *daylia*
Date: 18 Apr 03 - 12:25 PM

I saw the CBC report about the UNESCO emergency meeting re Iraq's stolen treasures last night, McGrath. Click here for two articles re UNESCO's analysis and recommendations - unfortunately just a bit late, IMO.

I still can't understand why the museum, which had been closed for 10 years prior to April 2000 to protect it from the ravages of the first Gulf War, was not closed again in recent months. Surely enough warning had been given that an even worse attack was coming! (See these articles I linked to in this recent thread.)

IMO the failure to close the museum and remove/protect Iraq's cultural treasures before the coalition attack was no simple oversight, but a very strong indication that the theft and destruction was planned, possibly even with Saddam's compliance.

Then again, I have developed quite the suspicious mind of late ...

daylia


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi National Museum Looted
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 18 Apr 03 - 12:16 PM

I heard this yesterday as well. I am probably out of step with most of you in thinking this *decreases* apparent U.S. culpability? (US blame arising out of a failure to guard against predictable looting by "mere" civilians flooding in from the street.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi National Museum Looted
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Apr 03 - 05:23 AM

Bush's cultural aides quit over sack of Baghdad's treasures.

From which piece comes this quote:

Historians and art experts meeting in Paris yesterday under the auspices of the UN cultural agency Unesco said the looting may have been organised, possibly from abroad. Those removing the items had the keys to open museum vaults, they said.

"It looks as if part of the theft was a very, very deliberate, planned action," said McGuire Gibson, an Iraqi specialist at the University of Chicago. "It really looks like a very professional job... They were able to obtain keys from somewhere for the vaults and were able to take out the very important, the very best material. I have a suspicion it was organized outside the country. In fact I'm pretty sure it was."

Mr Gibson said he had already heard unconfirmed reports of looted items being offered for sale outside Iraq.


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi National Museum Looted
From: Alba
Date: 17 Apr 03 - 07:10 PM

Today the FBI announced that they are now going to help recover the Artifacts!   As the State dept. was told about the Museum and it's importance before the War started, by many Historians, sounds a bit like locking the stable door after the horse has bolted.
This situation should never have happened.
Seemingly a group of European Art dealers have heard of some of the items in their circles already.


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi National Museum Looted
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Apr 03 - 06:49 PM

Hostorians, yes. But outside academic circles, I doubt if Rumsfeld's name as such will stick around too long. Who remembers Foster Dulles now? I think this is one of those times when it'll be the monkey who is is remembered rather than the organ grinder, and that'll mean Bush.

Or perhaps just "the barbarian invasion of 2003." After all, what was the name of the commander who burnt the Alexandria Library all those centuries ago?


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi National Museum Looted
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Apr 03 - 02:26 PM

But even if it was "bumbling", I guess that means that Rumsfeld will be remembered by generations of historians as the man who was too stupid to take the advice (and desperate pleas) of people who warned the US government that this would happen, thus making him the man responsible for the destruction of the great museums and libraries of Iraq.


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi National Museum Looted
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Apr 03 - 02:23 PM

That kind of distinction isn't going to be remembered, heric. It'll all be down to the Great Satan, who'll be a combination of Bush and Saddam, and it'll only be pedants who try to point out that they weren't actually the same man.


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi National Museum Looted
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Apr 03 - 02:22 PM

Who me?

;-)

I suppose I'm less inclined to believe the "bumbling" excuse than any number of other possible explanations.


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi National Museum Looted
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 17 Apr 03 - 02:05 PM

Too cryptic for analysis. Are you proposing a conspiracy theory involving intentional calculations by George Bush?


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi National Museum Looted
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Apr 03 - 01:57 PM

I don't know about that, heric. But time will tell, eh?


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi National Museum Looted
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 17 Apr 03 - 01:54 PM

No, MGOH and Carol, the apparent failure to guard the anitquities from looters during a predictable civil unrest, as bizarre as this still seems, is hardly similar to calculated, intentional destruction of religious antiquities in defiance of world outcry.


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi National Museum Looted
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Apr 03 - 01:40 PM

That's true, McGrath. If the rest of civilization doesn't get destroyed first, historians for generations will be remembering Donald "Rummy" Rumsfled as being the man responsible for the destruction of the great museums and libraries of Iraq.


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi National Museum Looted
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Apr 03 - 01:26 PM

Anyway, it's one way of achieving immortaloity. People will remember this in a thousand years, long after they've
forgotten what this war was all about. "Top of the world, Ma!"

In Afghanistan it was the Taliban achieved a similar distinction, when they destroyed the giant Buddhas.


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi National Museum Looted
From: harvey andrews
Date: 17 Apr 03 - 01:14 PM

" Real proud to be a weak reading man!!"
"Proud to be a weak real reading man!"
"Proud to be a real weak reading man!"

Whatever...it doesn't sing well, but I'm happy to wear the badge. Where do I sew it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi National Museum Looted
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Apr 03 - 12:37 PM

Why do barbarians stand around when the libraries burn? Because all reading does is make a real man weak. . .

That's intended as irony, right?


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi National Museum Looted
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 17 Apr 03 - 12:21 PM

The administration has made it clear that it is the Pentagon that is running the show, and soldiers know the peril of trying to act as policemen. It is obvious that the need to protect Iraq's treasures was not part of the pre-war planning on the part of the Department of State. What I can't help but wonder is what the situation in "liberated" Iraq would have been like if the administration hadn't been slowed in its rush to war by the anti-war crowd? What kind of plan would there have been if they hadn't bothered to go through the motions of going back to the UN, and trying to get some allies, and selling the war to the networks, and get contracts out to all those US corporations and other statesmanship stuff?

What good is preserving our cultural heritage anyway? What good has it done us? Thousands of years of culture led Iraq to Saddam Hussein and his bunch of thugs. And we've got George W., following Ole Bubba, George I and Ron the Actor. . .Why do barbarians stand around when the libraries burn? Because all reading does is make a real man weak. . .


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi National Museum Looted
From: JenEllen
Date: 17 Apr 03 - 11:25 AM

Frankly, if there were spare soldiers sitting around, I'd rather them be at the zoo saving lives than at a museum saving 'things'.


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi National Museum Looted
From: Bagpuss
Date: 17 Apr 03 - 05:31 AM

Peg - re the irony thing. Perhaps McGrath was trying to say that imperialism is bad whether you are good or bad at it. The US is trying to do it, but doing it badly. They could get better at it if they had practice, but that would also be a bad thing...


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi National Museum Looted
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Apr 03 - 04:57 AM

Given the number of cases of soldiers being killed by "friendly fire" anyway it would have been a bit daft have a unit turn up in a place where they weren't supposed to be - and the British sector in the war was Basra not Baghdad. Just as it would have been if an Amrican unit had turned up in Basra to defend some building there.

Looking after security is most definitely part of the job of the people capturing a city, not of their allies who are tied up in another part of the country.

All part of the "rules of engagement."

Noone is criticising the ordinary soldiers for what happened. Some people at higher level made a terrible mistake. Very likely they would have been civilians.


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi National Museum Looted
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Apr 03 - 04:00 AM

Given the number of cases of soldiers being killed by "friendly fire" anyway it would have been a bit daft have a unit turn up in a place where they weren't supposed to be - and the British sector in the war was Basra not Baghdad. Just as it would have been if an Amrican unit had turned up in Baghdad to defend some building there.

Looking after security is most definitely part of the job of the people capturing a city, not of their allies who are tied up in another part of the country.

All part of the "rules of engagement."

Noone is criticising the ordinary soldiers for what happened. Some people at higher level made a terrible mistake.


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi National Museum Looted
From: Peg
Date: 17 Apr 03 - 02:52 AM

harvey;
you didn't really answer my questions. Not with any factual information, anyway, which is what I was looking for.
What proof do you have that British soldiers were somehow prevented from being in Baghdad because of the Americans?


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi National Museum Looted
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Apr 03 - 08:10 PM

Well, the story just states it as a fcat, rather than giving any information, and it is by the Arts Correspondent, who would probably be writing in London, and it doesn't even name thevase - but the picture that appeared with it was definitely the right one.

Anyway - here is the story - Baghdad museum's greatest treasures 'stolen to order'


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi National Museum Looted
From: Peter T.
Date: 16 Apr 03 - 08:00 PM

McGrath, where was that -- do you have the Web reference? yours, Peter T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi National Museum Looted
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Apr 03 - 06:07 PM

And maybe those reports are true, and maybe they aren't. And maybe there were two rival spin doctors involved, one of them looking for a picture for the US public, and one more concerned about the people in the street, and watching from the non-US world.

I see from The Independent today that it is believed that the Ananna Vase, which Peter T was especially worried about, was stolen to order. Which at least means that it has a chance of having survived intact.

But for the shattered clay tablets with their writing, and the manuscripts and books burnt in the National Library, there is no hope.

Paradoxically, the fact that the invaders made great play about avoiding targetting these buildings, and did not do target them, probably made things worse. It meant that national treasures and archives and that were not removed to a safer place, as normally happens in wartime.

There was in fact a lot of concern expressed in advance, by academics and others around the world, about the possibility of damage to heritage sites. However the idea that the national museum and library would be left completely unguarded by the people responsible for security in the city - that doesn't seem to have been something that anybody thought necessary to warn against.


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi National Museum Looted
From: harvey andrews
Date: 16 Apr 03 - 06:03 PM

Thanks Carol.. goes to show.


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi National Museum Looted
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Apr 03 - 05:58 PM

Also, today I read that American media have not published or shown photos of the boy who's lost both his arms. Is this true?

No. The US is being very self-congratulatory via the media here, about how much effort we're putting into getting that boy to a better hospital. But we didn't hear anything in our news about him until after the story about him appeared in the British media.

Re: the flags... they didn't drape the Iraqi flag over the statue's face the way they did with the US flag. They hung it around the statue's neck like a necktie. I saw the footage of it on TV.


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi National Museum Looted
From: harvey andrews
Date: 16 Apr 03 - 05:53 PM

In the UK it was reported as I stated.
Also, today I read that American media have not published or shown photos of the boy who's lost both his arms. Is this true?


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi National Museum Looted
From: artbrooks
Date: 16 Apr 03 - 05:41 PM

According to all of the reports I've seen, the flag that was placed on the statue was the personal property of a 19-year-old Burmese-American Marine. It was taken off immediately and replaced with an Iraqi one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi National Museum Looted
From: harvey andrews
Date: 16 Apr 03 - 05:29 PM

Peg, sorry, I didn't wish to cast aspersions on your understanding. The British weren't allowed because it was America's war. America wanted its flag over the capital. Why else was the flag that flew over the Pentagon on 11 sept ready to drape over the statue pulled down before the readied cameras?
The British are incidental to Bush's regime plan.They're the little boy who tags on to the bully for the kudos.


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Mudcat time: 31 May 10:26 AM EDT

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