Religion and Song Circles

Subject: Religion and Song Circles
From: GUEST,diggy-lo
Date: 13 Apr 03 - 02:09 PM

Circumstances still keep me an infrequent visitor to Mudcat, but I want to say that I think the site administraters have done a fine job. I like the separation of music and non-music. Thanks people.

I wasn't going to discuss this publicly but I saw the thread about 'comin' in on a wing and a prayer' and it reminded me of an issue that's been unresolved for several weeks in one of the song circles I attend.

Like many of the folks who participate in urban song circles I'm Jewish. Probably half the group is. Many of us have grown up singing Gospel songs, although our sources are more likely to have been Pete Seeger and The Weavers, rather than Protestant Hymn Books. Much of the protest music that fuelled the integration and Peace movements were based on Traditional Christian music. I've never had any trouble with the music, but in truth the message is hardly a part of my life.

A couple of months ago a nice young woman came to the song circle and sang a couple of what I later found out were 'Praise' songs. The songs had choruses, which is what we ask folks to sing so that everyone can join in, so there shouldn't have been a problem. This woman then invited a friend of hers to join us for the next circle, and once again the 'praise' songs were the only things either of them sang.

I won't go into great detail but since then it's become obvious that every conversation with either of them is steered in an evangelical direction. The introductions to the songs are also starting to sound a bit patronizing.

It's quite a funny problem when you get right down to it, and the irony is not lost on those of us who've discussed it. Songs about religion are ok when they're not taken seriously, but the contemporary kind of 'Christian' music really does conjure up some very ugly realities to people who've spent large parts of their lives fighting for women's rights and against the kind of 'Bush Mentality' that has become almost acceptable today.

I know that these people have their agenda and I and many of my musical friends have ours, but the problem is what to do in the song circle. I'ts not comfortable and it shows a lot of signs of getting worse. I suspect someone is really going to lose it one evening and things will become ugly.

After writing this out it seems to me that there really is no 'solution' that will satisfy everyone, but it helps a bit to see it in print. Has anyone else dealt with these differences among people?

bev

Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles
From: mg
Date: 13 Apr 03 - 02:35 PM

if they try to impose their religion on you in the song circle, say we have many religious faiths and lack thereof here, so we try not to get into religious discussion in the song circle. In fact, the more talk that goes on in song circles, the worse the flow of music is, it seems to me anyway. Now, at the refreshment table or privately, just say you have your own religion and change the subject. Maybe tell them some of the old traditional numbers you like to hear.

Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles
From: SINSULL
Date: 13 Apr 03 - 02:39 PM

How big a circle? How many songs do they get to sing? Who is "in charge"? If they offer 4 out of 25 songs in a night, I would grin and bear it or speak privately with them questioning their agenda in a VERY friendly way. They don't seem to be breaking any rules. If the intros are becoming a problem and/or are downright offensive to some, I would have the moderater have a friendly word with them suggesting that they do not need to offer introductions. The music is self explanatory.

It is entirely possible that they love the music so much that they are unaware that they are offending some. It would be a shame if it got ugly and anyone "lost it" over music.

Another ploy: suggest a theme night. Murder ballads, fallen women, Bobby Burns night, etc. Help them develop some variety.

Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles
From: wysiwyg
Date: 13 Apr 03 - 02:40 PM

My computer is not a happy camper, or I would find you the fairly recent discussion thread about this where folks shared a spectrum of opinions and, as I recall, suggestions for handling the issue. Maybe someone can find it and link it here?

~Susan

Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles
From: Giac
Date: 13 Apr 03 - 02:49 PM

Is this it, your WHYSzness?

Religion and Politics

Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Apr 03 - 03:46 PM

I might be tempted to respond in kind!

My first response would be a song by an English parodist and 'Filker' Zander Nyrond (a.k.a. Jonathon Waite) who's "Backward Christian Soldiers" can be found Here
I will merely quote the first verse, although the 'Filk Blanket Permission List' makes it clear that it can be posted here. ("The following folks have given blanket permission to post their songs, so long as proper credit and copyright information are kept with the song, and it is not published or recorded for sale without specific permission from the writer. ")

BACKWARD CHRISTIAN SOLDIERS
Zander Nyrond
(Tune: fairly obvious really, no?)

Backward, Christian soldiers,
Backward from my door.
Take your sales pitch elsewhere,
Trouble me no more.
Christ and Hare Krishna,
Also Joseph Smith--
These are merely archetypes
From the realm of myth.
CHORUS        
Backward, Christian soldiers,
Backward from my door.
Take your sales pitch elsewhere,
Trouble me no more.


Nigel

Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles
From: wysiwyg
Date: 13 Apr 03 - 04:15 PM

Ezzackly, Ms. G!

Nigel, I may have to borry that one myself! :~)

~S~

Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Apr 03 - 04:18 PM

Wysi: Careful, if you follow the links to get to Zander's song page, people have been known to get lost for days! Fortunately I've got the paper version, so I know I can put it down and it'll still be there to come back to!

Nigel

Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles
From: wysiwyg
Date: 13 Apr 03 - 04:23 PM

Sometimes, people think just cuz I am a Christian I think this kind of proselytizing is OK-- I do NOT-- and that song just about says all there is to say about the issue! :~)

~Susan

Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Apr 03 - 04:55 PM

Maybe a crucial thing is whether the songs are any good as songs. The term "praise songs" seems a pretty fair guarantee in my experience that they aren't.

I don't know why that is so. There are superb songs in all religious traditions, and some pretty good modern songs with religious content, and not just those Sydney Carter wrote - but they seem to get drowned by a flood of insipid and glutinous material. Praise? Songs to Mortify the Ear and Spirit.

Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles
From: Mudlark
Date: 13 Apr 03 - 04:56 PM

I don't think songs of worship belong in song circles, for the very reason you are having a problem. I see nothing wrong in kindly telling the whole group (so the offenders don't feel too singled out) that there is a policy, no religious songs, the group being secular and/or multi-faithed. Furthermore, altho I am not religious myself, I have respect for the faiths of others, and it seems disrespectful to me to sing religious songs as just part of a sing-along, without commitment or belief.

.

Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 13 Apr 03 - 05:49 PM

In a previous life I taught world religions. I learned many lessons the hard way (but have forgotten most of them by now). Some things I do remember learning
1) there should be ground rules
2) those ground rules should presented as clearly as possible as early as possible.

Thus my syllabi were passed out on day 1 and contained something like the following:
"Please feel free to share your own experiences as a participant in a religious tradition. However, please do NOT witness for your faith. This class is NOT an appropriate place to proselytize for your faith. It also NOT an appropriate place to criticize faiths other than your own."
Having passed out the syllabus, I then read this particular passage aloud.

Seemed to work.

Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles
From: toadfrog
Date: 13 Apr 03 - 07:41 PM

Russ: Well said! I was thinking of making a suggestion, but yours is so much better I think I'll stow it!

Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Apr 03 - 07:57 PM

Mudlark: Whilst I may agree that religious songs have no real meaning if taken 'out of context', I am aware of a situation where they have meaning although they may not be recognised for what they are, or even understood.
When the Welsh rugby team play (not something they've been doing well recently) the 'home' crowd will provide tremendous support, and this includes the use of Welsh hymns. The players, and the singers, may not understand Welsh, but the fervour created by a good rendition of 'Cwm Rhondda', or 'Calon Lan', or 'I bob un sydd ffyddlon'(tune 'Rachie') is worth points on the scoreboard to the Welsh team. The only explanation is probably down to 'Hwyl', (a term for a feeling/experience engendered by a sense of 'Welshness' which does not translate well to English).
The above comment may seem to ramble, but it may also strike a chord with some.

Nigel

Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 13 Apr 03 - 10:03 PM

Diggy, I'm not sure if this is as serious a problem as you may think at this time.

I LOVE Gospel music....sing tons of it, but I have no belief whatsoever in a "human type" diety. I don't know what's out there, and would never trust another human being to TELL me that THEY have the answer. Doesn't stop me from really enjoying the music. If I find myself the minority in a crowd of 'believers', I just shut up and go with the flow. Why on earth would I want to push my agnosticism on anyone else? I'd be in that group SOLELY for the music....and that's good enough.

I believe strongly in a woman's right to terminate a pregnancy (with NO male input, if that's the way she wants it) but I'd be simply trying to cause havoc if I stated that belief in a Gospel Music gathering......if I was in the minority.

Nobody's gonna convert nobody in this day and age, unless the potential "convertee" is damn good and ready. Reminds me a bit of guys who freak when they think they've been propositioned by another guy. In both cases what's wrong with just saying "Not today thanks". (Quentin Crisp's line)

Why not just ask the gals if they're enjoyin' themselves, and that you hope the "Feminist, political, whatever " belief of the group will get easier for them to deal with 'cuz you appreciate they're comin' from a different space. but ask 'em DURING the song circle...kind of brings everything out in the open.

OK, maybe I'm being a pollyanna, but just PERHAPS they're there to have fun. You could always teach 'em to sing a "Feron" song....hell they might convert, ha ha!

**************************************************************

Now you wanna know what a REAL song circle problem is? The Jerk who wants to play along with everyone, but has NO CHORD SENSE AT ALL! Try gettin' rid of THAT person without bein' rude.

Cheers

Rick

Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 13 Apr 03 - 10:09 PM

I should also have mentioned that Traditional Bluegras IS practically a religion to me, and I've been fortunate to have met and done some picking with many of it's pioneers (I'm talkin' about the guys who started playing in the thiryies and forties).

If most of them knew what my political beliefs really were they'd have lynched me!

The music came first!

Cheers

Rick

Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles
From: khandu
Date: 13 Apr 03 - 10:23 PM

No, the best way to handle it is this; whenever they start singing their "praise" song, sing along. When they come to the name "Jesus", loudly sing "Moloch" and when you sing it, it would help to maybe slobber and jerk a bit. Then when the song is over, start a "Moloch" cheer..."Gimme an 'M'...gimme an..." (Of course, have the rest of the gathering prepared beforehand to enthusiastically join in!) Do the cheer intermittently throughout the rest of the evening.

This should solve the problem.

k

Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles
From: artbrooks
Date: 13 Apr 03 - 10:39 PM

Follow their contribution with Tzena, Bashana Haba'a, or, best of all Dayenu!

Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Apr 03 - 12:55 AM

Well, I don't know if I'd try the "Moloch" bit, but maybe a nice, sweet song like "Who Were the witches"??
I'm a Catholic. I love gospel songs, but they're not part of my religious tradition, and I don't sing them in church. Therefore, I don't hesitate to sing them in a song circle. I'll sing a Catholic song to a mixed group if requested, but I'd prefer to sing songs that are more inclusive. So, if I do get stuck singing a Catholic song, I'll follow with something inclusive.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles
From: Jeri
Date: 14 Apr 03 - 09:09 AM

Although it's amusing to come up with creative ways to do the passive-aggressive thing, I don't think getting even ever works, especially when the person you're getting even with has no idea you're even annoyed in the first place. They don't seem good at figuring out folks might have a problem, or they don't care. The most grown-up thing to do would be to tell them that you don't like being preached at, but it's confrontation, even if it's gentle, and might spark a defensive reaction even if done very tactfully. Perhaps they'd be better off hearing it said by someone calm and caring before someone blows up at them.

Otherwise, I'd just let 'em take their turn. They're singing what they enjoy singing, not what they think folks will enjoy hearing. Maybe you could 'feed' them some nice trad gospel and ignore their agenda?

There ought to be some song somewhere that expresses what you want to say gently, without serving as a musical sledge hammer.

Here's a not-so-subtle reply to 'em: Dick Gaughan's 'Son of Man'.

Rick, I hear you, but these two women are on the dangly side of the lynching party.

Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles
From: Tweed
Date: 14 Apr 03 - 09:43 AM

kingKhandu's Moloch idea is a good one but I'd take it one step beyond, as some of these witnessers are a bit thick skinned and unable to take strong hints.

Therefore, for best results I would think strongly about keeping a gunny sack full of rattlesnakes and when the praising and witnessing starts up, pull out a couple diamondbacks and shout as loud as you can,"TAKE UP THE SERPENT!!", while the rest of the group dances around the offenders flogging the person in front of them.

I have used this method myself on numerous occasions with excellent results.

Yerz,
Tweed

Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Apr 03 - 06:13 PM

Can't say this is a problem that has ever reared its head in my experience. The nearest I can recall, is when a well intentioned minister tried to insist that the fact that someone had been singing a hymn with such power and evident conviction had to mean that, deep inside, she was a believer, and she objected most strongly.

Mind, that was a good song. It's not something that would arise with the kind of "Praise Song" that I think is envisaged here.

But I don't believe in the idea that just because a religious song isn't "inclusive" it oughtn't to be sung outside the particular religious tradition from which it comes. I value the chance to hear songs from other traditions. The crucial thing is they should be good songs, and they shouldn't be sectarian in the sense of being disrespectful of others.

Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles
From: wilco
Date: 14 Apr 03 - 08:16 PM

I'm not a religious person, but I respect everyone's religious perspective. In the Southeast USA this is a REAL BIG PROBLEM, with endless proselitizing by protestant fundamentalists.
    Periodically, it needs to be stated somehow that "This is not an appropriate setting to bring in personal politics, religions, private personal problems, etc; this isn't a religious or political meeting or therapy."
    My experience has been that, when they find that they are not
"reeling 'em in" (conversions), they will find a more promising setting.

Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles
From: NicoleC
Date: 14 Apr 03 - 10:59 PM

I agree with Jeri -- as fun as it is to think of comebacks, the truth is that many Christians hold as a tenant of their faith that everyone else is absolutely wrong. They aren't alone in this belief among religions, but there is a strong tradition of prostelitizing in the US, and any attempt to give them a come-uppance is likely to backfire when they decide you need to be "saved" even more. Quite frankly, they may not be able to consider behaving any other way if they feel it's their God-given duty to "spread the Word." They might, however, be ammenable to learning, and that would be a boon to all of us faced with prostelitizing Christians who act like used car salesmen with a lemon to get off the lot.

I don't know how preachy their introductions are getting. They might just be singing the songs they like and be totally unaware of what everyone else seems to consider in appropriate behavior. If the songs are inappropriate to the session (for example, modern Christian music on a folk session) they can be asked to pick songs which suit the session. If they Dug up some old spirituals, it might be more comfortable for everyone else.

Since religious music is a part of traditional music, I suggest the moderator tell them they can choose whichever songs they like, however they need to limit their introductions to music and not religion. Or maybe those of you who don't feel comfortable singing along with the choruses should simply not join in. It might get lonely up there... and they will certainly get the point. If they don't take the point and loosen up, the group can consider options from there.

But meanwhile, I think you give them the chance to be courteous -- especially if they are unaware that's what they are doing?

Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles
From: GUEST,Les B.
Date: 15 Apr 03 - 12:17 AM

Well, thank Moloch, I've had somewhat the opposite experience. One of the regulars at our weekly acoustic, bluegrass-oriented, song circle invited us all to come to his church's new coffee house.

I was reluctant to attend, expecting to be proselytized strongly, but as this guy is a real fine person I decided to try it just once. We got there and it was a real mixed bag - an electric guitar, an electric bass, a guy with a drum kit, a mentally disadvantaged fellow on a flutophone, a former folkie with an Ovation guitar, an older guy with a real fine old Gibson flattop - who never played a note all evening, and a woman music teacher with a nylon stringed guitar who "didn't know what bluegrass was."   

Turns out they just wanted to jam, and other than a couple of hymns, and once in a while a "praise the lord," there was no direct pressure or sermons. The electric guitar player was a real gem, he had played in country bands for a couple of decades until the drink got to him and he was subsequently "saved". He knew some of the older fiddle players I know when they were young and in their prime, and did he have some tasty licks on the guitar !

I've gone back several times and there's never been any pressure. It's just a chance for them to socialize, and they needed some people from our group who know a good number of songs without dragging out the paper. If they get a little too heavy on the religious songs, I try to sing something like "Reckless Cowboy" or "Wild Bill Jones" ("Pass around them long necked bottles!")so that there's equal time given to the profane! It's been real fun, their lattes are excellent, and the space is to die for - roomy, well lit, and plenty of chairs.

Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles
From: Hrothgar
Date: 15 Apr 03 - 06:01 AM

We have a good hymn singing session at the National Folk Festival in Canberra every year - but fortunately nobody brings religion (or should I say sectarianism?) into it.

Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 15 Apr 03 - 06:07 AM

Wilco said:

"This is not an appropriate setting to bring
in personal politics, religions, private personal problems, etc; this isn't a religious or political meeting, or therapy"

I'm pretty familiar with the nature of the song circles that Diggy talks about, and they actually ARE pretty political, simply because of the preponderance of activists who attend. I think that the problem (if there IS one) is that for many folks....Political activism IS their life's work. They're out marching on picket lines, they're the ones who contemplate going to Iraq to be human shields, or at least write letters to the White House!! They're at abortion clinics, rallies, support same-sex marriages....well hell, you know what I'm talking about....AND they go regularly to Song circles in the big cities.

I'm not sure WHY someone who lives a completely different set of values would WANT to attend that kind of gathering.....but apparently they do (on occasion, I guess). After re-reading the original post, I think I WAS being a bit of a Pollyanna in my other post. This may have to be sorted out in private.

I'm always trying to make omelettes without breaking any eggs....sometimes you just can't...the eggs get broke and the feelings get hurt.

Cheers

Rick

Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles
From: greg stephens
Date: 15 Apr 03 - 07:01 AM

This is a very interesting and seemingly insoluble problem. We have seen here the problem of people bringing in their "praise songs" and causing unpleasnatness with feelings that they are trying to dominate the group. I have recent experience of the opposite problem(not my own expereince, it's a women's group a friend helps organise). My pal Kate took in "I bid you goodnight" as a suitable song to have a bash at, great song, fun to sing, quite an anthem in English folk ciclezzs( Incredible String band, Joseph Spense, Carthy/Waterson etc etc). So everybody's blasting away at the song, but one person complains. Because, horror of horrors, there's a line in the song "I love you but Jesus loves you best". What do you do? Drop the song, because it's causing tension? But why should you, if one person doesnt like it and the other 19 do. And it's not the only religious song in the groups repertoire, but the otheres are all in Serbo Croat or Shona or whatever so nobody really understands them. What do you do? You cant ask the person to leave if they dont like it, she may be a stalwart of the group and a friend. How do consensus/democratic groups of people cope with individuals who try to impose their will like this? An age-old problem.

Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles
From: GUEST,Green Man
Date: 15 Apr 03 - 07:39 AM

I am religious, I am a heathen we sing about life and beer and then of course there's drinking beer...

I also like singing anything with harmonies. I go for the music, I go for the friends I have made and the elation I feel when those high harmonies come out right. I don't mistake that for any kind of religious experience.

Whew!

Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Apr 03 - 01:37 PM

Any thoughts about (American) Gospel music? Both the black and white varieties are certainly legimate parts of the folk-music tradition, and indeed many of our oldest and most familiar Gospel tunes, despite their explicitly religious content, have become pretty much "mainstream," e.g., "Down By the Riverside," "Will the Circle Be Unbroken," etc.

As a semi-agnostic ex-Catholic* (see PS below), I would also be extremely uncomfortable in the situation described in diggy-lo's initial post. That's assuming, of course, that my understanding of the category "praise songs" is correct, and that what we're talking about here is insipid musical pablum delivered as an obnoxious holier-than-thou sales pitch.

Music that simply expresses spiritual feelings of inspiration, even ecstacy, is always enjoyable -- even to those of us who might harbor a bit of skepticism regarding the lyrical content.

Here's a suggestion from a completely different angle than I've read so far, from the "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em" school of thought. Rather than offer praise to Moloch or Satan or whomever (which is a *funny* idea, I agree, but not a course of action I would choose), why not offer a tune that is ostensibly Christian or spiritual, but more appropriate (musically *and* aesthetically) to the overall group sensibility. Like "Twelve Gates to the City," "His Eye is on the Sparrow," "Turn the Radio On," or one of the old chestnuts mentioned above.

If you *really* want to make some waves, let me suggest searching out and learning my favorite vocal perfomance of all time, "The Hem of His Garment" as sung by Sam Cooke and the Soul Stirrers!

*PS: Any of you Catholics, ex- and otherwise, share my disdain for the dumbed-down psuedo-folk "guitar Mass" music introduced in the late '60s? I was (and still am) in favor of most of the *other* modernization that came with John XXII and Vatican II, and as a guitar-toting folkie I thought I would have and should have supported the musical changes, but I think Catholic liturgical music took a decided downturn when Latin choral music was replaced by imitation-Protestant devotionoal ditties.

Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles
From: wysiwyg
Date: 15 Apr 03 - 02:04 PM

Gospel: we lead a weekly acoustic service that blows the roof off on a regular basis. (Little or no praise music.) Oldtime, black, southern, blues, bluegrass, revival gospel, and old denominational hymns done upbeat. It's spreading now to the other area churches as our band sprouts off new starters....

We're Episcopal. The contrast between the music and the liturgy/sacraments is part of why it works. Having a banjo slung up the back of the priest, over his alb, while he fiddles,doesn't hurt either. :~)

~Susan

Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Apr 03 - 02:48 PM

greg stephens, are we thinking of the same song?? I love that song- but I never considered it as a song for the song circle. It has such a reverent, moving approach that I would suspect that eventually a parody would form from the 'other' side. And it would probably lend itself very well to parody!

I have sung it only at a dying person's bedside.

Here are the first two verses- can't think of the third one at the moment. Hardly rousing.

"Sleep on, beloved, sleep and take your rest
Lay down your head upon the Savior's breast
I love you well but Jesus loves you best
Good night, good night, good night
Oh, I bid you good night, good night, good night

Calm is your slumber as an infant sleeps
But you shall wake no more to toil and weep
Thine is a perfect rest, secure and deep
Good night, good night, good night
Oh, I bid you good night, good night, good night"

Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles
From: GUEST,Tom Henehan
Date: 15 Apr 03 - 03:20 PM

The Grateful Dead often closed their shows with "I Bid You Goodnight" -- hardly a traditionally religious group, albeit promoters of / participants in a certain school of spirituality. The sudden change of pace usually served to bring a nice sense of closure to a very long evening.

When I first heard the Dead perform this tune (1969-70-ish), I recognized the tune from *some* earlier folk-revival-era recording -- probably the Incredible String Band. I only know the one verse that the Dead used, very similar to what Ebbie just submitted. However, differences in the meter might mean that we're discussing two entirely different tunes with similar lyrics -- who knows?

Won't you lay down children / Lay down and take your rest
Lay your head / Upon your Savior's breast
'Cuz I love you, but Jesus loves you the best
And I bid you good night, good night, good night.
(repeat until satisfied)

By the way -- how is it that some guest submissions are labelled "GUEST [name]" and others just "GUEST"?

Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles
From: wysiwyg
Date: 15 Apr 03 - 03:37 PM

Tom, if the person who is posting doesn't type in some name or nickname in the optional "from" box, they just show as a Guest.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles
From: GUEST,Tom Henehan
Date: 15 Apr 03 - 03:58 PM

Hey Susan,

I typed my name in the "From" box twice earlier today (at least I'm pretty sure), both times in this thread, and came up as "GUEST"-only the first time, and Guest-with-my-name the second time.

We'll see what happens this third time.

Why don't I join? I stumble across Mudcat about once or twice a year, spend a couple of days lurking and sticking in my two-cents-worth here and there, and disapear again. (I like the figurative "sound" of my own rhetorical voice almost as much as the actual sound of my singing voice.) Right now, I'm having an easy week at work (the boss is away and the mice will play), but next week I'll be gone again for a while.

My on-and-off participation is pretty much a matter of nostalgia. I spent several years in my early 20s persuing music full-time but eventually drifted away. I'm still an enthusiastic listener and unabashed audience-singer, but by now I have such bad arthritis in my fingers that I'll never again play my beloved old D-18 with the same intensity and dedication.

Also, my primary musical interest was once centered on Delta-type country blues and has developed in the direction of gospel, jazz, and especially the classic r&b of my adopted hometown, New Orleans. Such a blues-centric orientation seems to be less and less the focus of this group, which may once have been the down-home African-influenced American tradition but seems now to be more interested in the British-Isles, Childe-ballad side of the folk music spectrum. Nice enough, certainly, but not my cup of firewater.

Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles
From: MMario
Date: 15 Apr 03 - 04:05 PM

there is the occasional glitch...*grin*

Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles
From: wysiwyg
Date: 15 Apr 03 - 04:29 PM

Hey Tom, check out the African American Spirituals Permathread. Stuff you like is alive and well.

BTW, a friend with MS has had to make some adjustments but still plays. Never doubt there is a need in this world for whatever kind of music you can make, support, or encourage. Love to jam with you sometime.

Hey, if you join people can send you PMs and the messages can sit there waiting for your return. Long conversations can be a lot of fun.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles
From: greg stephens
Date: 15 Apr 03 - 05:23 PM

Ebbie
Joseph Spense's bahama version of "I bid you goodnight" is actually rousing..and has led to innumerable versions since as mentioned above.But it is,as you say, Spense's/Grateful dead etc's take on the Sankey hymn(words Sarah Doudney or Poudney, my memory's failing) "The Christian's Goodnight". Slow and mournful, rocking and joyful(depends how you view funerals)...both ways eminently suitable for a choir/sing around/pub session/final number at a concert. But if one member of the group whines, what do you do???

Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles
From: GUEST,ClaireBear
Date: 15 Apr 03 - 06:27 PM

I'm the first to admit I haven't thought this through thoroughly, but -- non-confrontational sort that I am, what I do is this: When I don't like the song (or can't bear to be associated with the poor quality of the performance -- like when the singer can't keep to a pitch or a rhythm, which happens more often in the singalong event I go to), I simply don't sing along. If it's REALLY unbearable, I leave the room until it's over.

The thing is, at some level I feel that singers at a public singalong DO have the right to perform whatever and however they want, as long as it's within the stated rules of the singalong -- and if their material or their quality is something that I don't approve of, I accept that it's to some extent MY problem.

Now I know that clamming up isn't a universally effective solution: There are some people so clueless that even if nobody ever sang along with them -- or even if everybody routinely left the room when they started up -- they'd keep right on going. But the keep-my-mouth-shut solution might work in a majority of cases, I think, if a vast majority of the audience joined me in the conspiracy of silence.

Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Apr 03 - 06:41 PM

What to do? That depends on all kinds of factors. As with any situation where some friend reveals that they are in fact some kind of bigot. Because objecting to that line in that context is bigotry.

Long introductions to songs aren't a good idea, whether they are political or religious. Let the song carry the message, if there's a message.

And I'm with you all the way on the cultural vandalism in Catholic Masses, GUEST (Tom?). Latin I can do without (though I really miss it when I'm at Mass in a non-English speaking country), but the timid slow strum and tambourine "folk masses"...

Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Apr 03 - 06:46 PM

I'd like to hear the rousing version of the song. Spence's 'bahama' version? Does that mean calypso? I'm sure it can be done successfully in various ways.

I think the only live version I have heard was sung by Suzanne Thomas or maybe it was 'Brad, Tom and Alice', another group that has played here. Anyway, I do like it.

Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles
From: greg stephens
Date: 15 Apr 03 - 07:01 PM

I am often ready with a glib answer to a problem, but here I am really at a loss.You get a nice group of people, and somebody becomes confrontational, about something which is not remotely confrontational to everybody else in the group. What do you do, without coming down to their level?
   And the other side of the coin, how do you react to the arrivals of the well-meant(??) "praise songs". You cant just say"bugger off they're crap".
   Sorry, this is not a helpful post, I'm just restating the problem. All problems must have solutions, but I cant see a glimmer of light.

Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles
From: wysiwyg
Date: 15 Apr 03 - 07:25 PM

For someone who is the "leader" of the group invovled, it's a different question than it is for participants. For the leader, the simplest and cleanest approach is to speak privately and respectfully to the newcomers. SOmething along the lines of, "I have had a concern about some things that have been going on in our song circle and I'd like to discuss it with you." And then go on to say what you think and feel, and what you perceive the group is thinking and feeling. Be willing to hear what the newcomers are thinking or feeling. Be willing to be the go-between interpreting the feelings and thoughts of various viewpoints, to one another, so that they can think about the situation. Consider, after this groundwork has been laid, bringing the topic up within the group in a respectful fashion. And keep in mind that however you perceive religious issues, in this situation these new folks will be outnumbered, as being the newcomers. Advocate for their right to be treated respectfully, with the rest of the group. A leader leads, and does not control.

For participants, I'll restate what I said in the earlier thread on the same topic.... which is, reacting to try to control what is perceived to be happening is not quite in order.... what IS in order is to respond in such a fashion that one honors and expresses one's own belief system, about how people ought to be treated. IMO the question is, "How do I believe human beings ought to treat other human beings?" Treat these newcomers like that. Model living by what you believe.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Apr 03 - 07:35 PM

Same problem arises with any song that's crap. Mostly people pick up on the body language and so forth. Maybe the thing is to find a way of pushing them in the direction of songs with a religious content that are not crap (such as "I bid you goodnight"). Same with politics.

Dealing with any kind of bigotry from a friend, I'd assume it's just thoughtless, and talk about it outside the immediate setting maybe. If that doesn't work, the frienship is in danger.

If people insist on giving overlong introductions I don't think its rude to ask them to get a move on and sing the song.

Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Apr 03 - 07:54 PM

"A leader leads, and does not control."

Amen...uh, I mean, right on!

I agree with greg, sadly....there IS no clear solution when some want the singing to be a **MESSAGE** rather than just sharing good music.

"Witnessing" is a special thing, and needs a special time and place...and 'public' song circles are perhaps not the place.

Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles
From: Tweed
Date: 15 Apr 03 - 08:07 PM

One word: Diamondbacks.

They will clear out even the largest congregations of Lutherans or Methodists. Results are absolutely guaranteed at any local song circle.

Yerz,
Tweed (ducking covered dishes and seven-bean salad..)

Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles
From: NicoleC
Date: 15 Apr 03 - 08:24 PM

Every plan has a flaw, Tweed. It'll only encourage Snake Handler Pentecostals.

Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Apr 03 - 08:53 PM

What Susan said (7:25) nudged my memory. I did find it necessary once to talk privately to a person who was doing that. The message I tried to get across to her was that she might want to consider forming a group that wanted to sing and talk primarily about her interests, that this group, for better or worse, was eclectic and was more interested in a wide range of subjects. She didn't come back, but we're still 'friendly acquaintances'.

This kind of thing gets around. I have a pet no-no and I no longer have to say anything about it- the group lets any newcomer know that Eb doesn't want any early Beatles songs. I'm aware that some of the regulars have snuck a later song through on occasion but that's fine. As long as I like the song well enough, I can handle a bit of it. Just don't give me any she loves me yeah yeah yeah stuff. (Or is that 'you'? Don't bother answering...:)

Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles
From: Tweed
Date: 15 Apr 03 - 09:15 PM

Nicole that's even better! Snake fights could be arranged with betting on the side. Pitting the pitvipers in the pit for paramutual profit or even as a fundraiser. Far more exciting than bingo on Wednesdays. You're a genius yore Ladyship....I wish I'd thought of it!
Yerz,
Tweed (Ducking creme pies and jello salad..)

Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles
From: wysiwyg
Date: 15 Apr 03 - 09:29 PM

Hey Ebbie, NO KumBahYAH at OUR house! :~)

~Susan