Are all folkies over fifty?

Subject: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: cobber
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 05:15 AM

I went to see Roy Bailey recently in Adelaide (South Australia). It was a brilliant night but looking round the audience, I was one of the young ones and I'm 55. Where have all the young folkies gone or are we destined like most dinosaurs to die out?

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: GUEST,oldie folkie
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 05:25 AM

yes it would seem that this is the case but at my local folk club the average age is about 40. The younger ones seem to want to perform the music rather than listen.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: cobber
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 05:31 AM

I agree. There's some great young performers around. Back when I was playing, part of the attraction was playing to people our own age. We wouldn't dream of playing to our mother's friends etc. Maybe, like then there are venues that attract different age groups.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 06:26 AM

I go to two folk clubs in SW London on a regular basis and the audience and performers are all over 45, most are older. There are a couple of clubs which have one or two young, teen & 20's, performers, but they all seem to play self-penned acoustic, pop inluenced stuff rather than folk. Some older folkies drag, and I do mean drag, along their kids, but personally I feel sorry for kids who can't find somewhere of their own making to go to. If you want to see younger performers & audience you have to go to the festivals. We in my local clubs all seem to have moved on together in a time capsule set c 1970! :~)

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 06:30 AM

I ran a folk concert series that sold out almost every concert for over twenty years. But gradually, my audience retired and moved south, or got too old to want to drive at night. The youngsters who were in their thirties were getting into their fifties by then, and the audience kept getting smaller until I started losing money on every concert. Even sure-fire sell outs of the past were drawing thirty or forty people. I finally had to end the series. It had become a private party for a small circle of friends.

Meanwhile, the next town over, there was a coffee house that was flourishing. The place was packed, and most of the performers were young. And most of the audience was performers. They had an open mike night, and people would sign up for their two songs until the list was getting close to twenty. They were there with friends or family who came to hear them. Many of them left as soon as they did their two songs. In a way, I thought it was humorous... a room packed with young performers all hoping to be discovered by young performers hoping to be discovered. And they called the music folk music, because it wasn't electric. But, you could go a whole night without hearing a song more than three years old. A couple of times I went and did traditional stuff, and I WAS a dinosaur. People were politely dissinterested.

Meanwhile, down at the Center Of The Arts, they ran a folk concert series of contemporary songwriters. I met the many who ran it and mentioned that I had run a concert series of traditional folk music and he said, "I HATE traditional folk music." His choices for performers made that obvious.

Life moves on...

Jerry

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: alanabit
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 07:53 AM

It is the same story everywhere and one which makes me wonder if folk music has any future at all. If it does, it looks as if it will not be preserved by folk clubs (much as I like them), or coffee houses or by any concert series.
I was talking about this to Marion when she was here a few days ago. My feeling is that the social context in which folk music was made no longer exists - and I will accept many definitions of folk music. For me rugby songs are folk songs. Some hymns are folk songs. Daft songs sung in the back of a bus are folk songs. Songs passed around at sing alongs (if there are any more) in Cockney pubs are folk songs and in fact any songs which are passed on directly are folk songs.
There is a very great resistance to live music per se. I went to try to set up a gig in a venue where I had previously packed the place with one of my bands. The disc jockey who was running the place looked at me with bored contempt. He regarded musicians as morons who were too stupid to operate a record player. That was where "real" music came from as far as he was concerned. His disco brought people in whereas live music only drove people out.
Young people grow up with a huge amount of expensively advertised, technically perfectly recorded sound. The pop vidoes they watch rarely hold a shot for more than a few seconds, because they are taught not to concentrate any longer. What part of their culture involves singing and playing to each other and exchanging songs?
It is not only folk music which is attracting a smaller audience - indeed almost no audience at all. The number of gigs available to blues, country and rock and roll bands is also diminishing.
I think that to have any prospect of long time survival, folk music has to be part of people's culture - and that does not mean just practised in near secret by eccentric batches of people over fifty. I was not surprised when someone recently said that being a fan of English folk made him feel lonely. It is no longer a living tradition and has not been so in my lifetime. You can not go into a pub in any English town I have lived in and expect to find a group of people playing traditional English music. The same is true in Germany. If you found a group of Germans playing "traditional German music" in a pub for fun, they would be looked upon as very eccentric indeed. Oddly enough, were the same musicians to be playing "Irish folk" everything would seem natural! That is probably because Ireland is one of the few countries in Western Europe which is still developing and preserving (you can't have one without the other) its folk culture.
Most fans of folk music are over fifty because folk music is no longer a tradition in our society, but an eccentric revival which is now dying out.
That should put the cat among the pigeons. The floor is now yours, ladies and gentlemen!

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: GUEST,leo
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 07:59 AM

well, i can safely i'm not 55 or anywhere over that, being three-quarters through my seventeenth year and very much a folkie. i also happen to know quite a few others around my age who are doing the same sort of thing, though i did have to go to a music course to find them. anyway i wouldn't worry. it'll come back - if there was a "revival" in the 60s then i'm sure there'll be another yet! we just have to wait till the record companies relinquish their grip on the general public.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: greg stephens
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 08:03 AM

Well those of us over 50 may wish that young people would gather and sing traditional songs(or develop new ones)..but there is absolutely nothing we can do about it. When they are good and ready to, they will, and we probably won't be invited.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: Naemanson
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 09:08 AM

Fear not! The kids are out there and they are playing and listening to folk music. When I was in Ventura California last month I met a young lady who loves to finger pick Irish music on her baby Taylor. Our local coffeehouse regualrly features younger performers AND AUDIENCE MEMBERS. Concert audiences include younger members too.

I'd say you need to look at what the competition is doing. If you have a folk club performances competing with live modern rock you might see fewer young audience members. This doesn't mean that the youngsters don't like folk music. It just means they like to hang out with members of their own age group.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: Maryrrf
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 09:17 AM

This is a depressing thread but I think it contains many truths. Young people today are so used to slick, technically perfect, overproduced music and yes, DJ's and canned music have taken over at many venues. I have a friend who played locally in pop music for several years - he was judged on how closely what he did sounded like what people had heard on the radio. I've also had the experiece that Jerry had - a folk venue where when you mention "traditional" the door gets slammed in your face (in the case it was the telephone receiver). I used to live in Germany during the 1970's and there was still German folk music around. Most especially at Festivals and things like that it was heard and enjoyed (and danced to!). I came to know many of the German folk songs and so I was overjoyed when, a couple of years ago, the company I was working for sent me to a trade show in Munich during Oktoberfest. I was so looking forward to hearing the old German folk songs again and singing along. Alas, the
"theme song" seemed to be "Heyyyyy Baby - I wanna know if you'll be my girl..." closely followed by "Country Roads" (a song I have come to absolutely despise). I sat next to a couple with their teenaged son one evening and asked them what happened to the old German songs. They said you don't hear them anymore and that they missed them too. The son remarked that he thought this was a good thing, because "international" music brought people together. Most of the stuff I was hearing wasn't "international" it was American and very bland generic junk it was.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 09:30 AM

Actually, this is a problem that doesn't exist in the Celtic traditional music communities, or the newgrass/bluegrass or zydeco or Cajun music communities, so sometimes I do have to wonder about those who claim no young people are into traditional/folk music.
Traditional music is more popular than it has ever been, especially among young people. Of course it isn't mainstream. Of course young people are changing the music, electrifying it, etc and making it relevant to their generation.

What is depressing is sitting around listening to old farts complain that no one wants to attend/belong to their elitist twee folk clubs. It is just that attitude that resulted in the lot of you digging your own graves quite some time ago.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: Midchuck
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 09:48 AM

It is not surprising that a great proportion of confirmed folkies are from the generation that was in high school and college during the Great Folk Scare (defined as the period beginning with the release of the Kingston Trio's first album, and ending with Bob Dylan's appearance on stage at the '65 Newport festival with a Fender electric guitar). Everyone fixates for life to some extent on the things they were into at that point in life. I, personally had some success in brainwashing my children, however. We do some songs of my daughter's authorship, and they're well received, and my son helps out on bass and/or lead guitar whenever he's around.

Besides, think of the people just a little younger, who were in high school and college during the peak years of Disco. F***ed up for their whole lives! We were lucky....

Peter.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 10:12 AM

Please put the caveat on the post that you are speaking for yourself Peter. Not all of us are musically stuck in high school, applauding our memories.

I am just a tad younger than the Kingston Trio generation (that was my older siblings time). The consumer/radio music I listened to was Fairport, Pentangle, Bothy Band, Arlo Guthrie, Dylan, the Band, Poco, New Riders, Doc Watson, along with the rock, pop, blues, soul, R & B of the day. Over the years, my musical tastes, NOT THE FOLK SCARE/KINGSTON TRIO types, led me to deeper explorations of a lot of traditional music. And classical music. And roots music. And blues music.

The whole folk club phenomena was largely an English one, which never really caught on outside a few spots in mainland Britain, and a few clubs in the US, mostly on the east coast. Having no experience with New Zealand or Australia, I can't speak for the popularity of the folk club set there. But the folk club community was never any more "authentic" traditional in it's day than Branson is now, so I don't see what the tragedy is of folk clubs going the way of the dinosaur. IMO, they bloody well deserve to go out that way. Give me a pub session, a festival, or intimate gatherings in someone's home over a folk club any day of the week.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: Midchuck
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 10:32 AM

Like, Dude, I said, like, "...to some extent.."

I listen to as much '70s and early '80s (but not contemporary) commercial country, as '60s folk. Last night I put on a "Waylon Jennings' Greatest Hits" CD while doing the dishes, and cried in the dishwater. And some of the more progressive bluegrass, and the better contemporary cowboy music, etc. ad infinitum.

But I run into an awful lot of people who are stuck in high school or college. And like it that way.

P.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: GUEST,croc
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 10:54 AM

What has 100 legs and four teeth?
The front row at a Mississippi Bluegrass festival...

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: Amos
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 11:05 AM

I'll tell you this much -- often it is a case of not knowing what they're missing. On two occasions recently Ihad a chance to play for -- and sing with -- younger people who hadn't heard much or any folk music. They discovered they really, really liked it. They had such a good time they had say thanks four times, which is unusual at that age -- 14 to 18. They'd just never been to a live hoot, I guess.

A

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 11:14 AM

I listen to some contemporary country, and love it, just not the faux patriotric crap. The Dixie Chicks. Allison Kraus. Ricky Skaggs. Lots of Rounder Records stuff. Beausoleil. Balfa Bros. Evangeline Playboys. Katy Moffat. Roseanne Cash. Carrie Newcomer. Rosie Flores. I have a special place in my heart for cowpunk acts like Mary Prankster or the Flaming Chihuahuas.

Problem with archaic English (and a good number of Celtic) folk types is they are much too self-important about THEIR music being so so sacred, and the fact they have absolutely no joie de vivre about contemporary music. At the end of the day, their beloved music is still ONLY MUSIC. Because they love it does not raise it to a level of cultural importance equivalent to war and peace, world hunger, or the cure for cancer or AIDs.

Same can be said about musicians and music consumers who only listen to/perform oldies/nostalgia music, radio and cable TV stations, etc. I see no difference between those who flock to the Grand Ole Opry and watch the Great American Country station, and what I call the Anglo Celtic Faux Folk movement, which remains stuck in the music equivalent of a Cecil Sharpeville Theme Park mindset.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 11:21 AM

I can only speak about American old time music of the southern mountains. Not sure if that qualifies as folk.

Around here, we don't get many people significantly under fifty at concerts, but I see lots of people in that category at places like Clifftop. Can't explain it.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: Midchuck
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 11:36 AM

I can only speak about American old time music... we don't get many people significantly under fifty at concerts, but I see lots of people in that category at places like Clifftop. Can't explain it.

Isn't part of that the residual effect of OBWTFAT?

P.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 11:37 AM

Hey Russ. I think the way people come together to celebrate music has changed since the 60s, and that the festival/camp out thing is just the way the contemporary musicians and music fans want it. It started out as a sort of Woodstock effect, but it is in no way limited to the rock music genre anymore.

At festivals, be they the camp out and outdoor music sort, or in pubs with people staying in hostels and B & Bs, there are much fewer barriers between stage and audience, and everyone is welcome to and can particpate in the music, no matter how bad they are (except among the elitist type festivals, held more for the benefit of the "stars" than the music community at large).

This change hasn't just happened with folk music though. Many music genres are this way, from rock to country to punk to Old Time, you name it. This is the way young people want to come together to witness and experience the music. And festivals now combine arts and culture with the festivals too, giving people music, art, food, dance, theatre, etc all in one festival. Or maybe it is a food sort of festival, with music acts.

I think it's great. Festivals are a lot of fun. It is something you can do with a group of friends, to help keep costs down. Young people like the free spritied aspect of the festival, because they can party their brains out round the clock with like minded people. I steer clear of the party crowd nowadays, but I still love going to festivals. But there is no way I would limit myself only to folk festivals, or even just to music festivals. The world is just too rich and full of wonderful things to stuck in the same old, same old, IMO.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 11:49 AM

From the playaholic point of view none of this is vaguely relevant and age is irrelevant.

I have heard and played with all ages, and every one of them share one thing - they have to play - audiences are merely accidents of location and IMHO irrelevant to weaving the music of the people.

Look, Folk music - records > therfore clubs > ta dah tad dah - is/was a handy place to meet and share. Ther'e gone so what?

I often think that after the first record of commercial folk got airplay the "folk music" venue was born; before that day there was no such a thing, except for granny walluping out Knees Up Mother Brown down at the local on Poppy Day eve ... what ever.

In fact, I cannot recall even 1 morris day when I was a kid at school in the UK, yup we did do Maypole stuff but that is not the same as an entire Morris side complete with sticks and a band, much less would we have the slightest idea what a 'Mummer' was.

It was only in the 60's that anybody took notice, after a few smart record execs in the US figured out how to take our money with Urban kids doing Pseudofolk on record.

Guest seems to think that one needs a peer circle to make music, phew - what a bibful a bull. I wonder who would be so brave to play over some of the great old timers I have had the luck to hear?

In fact in my celtic days I used listen to a few folks who were at least twice my age and learned most of what I know in that tradition; later as a matter of education I had to learn again from older folks in the US who taught me most of what I now know.

Performing acoustic original folk like music can be entertaining for a while, but there is no equal to a great night at the boozer with singing and some tunez, who cares who or what the musical instruments are, not me. I have done it on Electric Guitar, Accordion, Harmonica, Fiddles and Guitars, joined in with Piano Bass and Drums + mics etc.

To me Folk music is what is popular in my local ... you can keep the weenie spiolt coffee house twits and their upper class choruses.

As ever

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 12:36 PM

"Guest seems to think that one needs a peer circle to make music, phew - what a bibful a bull."

No, guest doesn't think any such thing.

But guest does realize that most young people (age is the subject at hand, in case you hadn't noticed) want social interaction with their peers more than they want to pledge allegiance to a particular way of performing music, especially when that particular way of music is intolerantly dictated to them by anal older adults with no tolerance for youthful innovation.

Music draws young people together because it is fun and full of joy and a sense of camraderie. It usually does not make them want to make an exclusive sort of music with older adults, until they are older, usually in their mid to late twenties. The reason for this is largely because their first interest isn't the music, but each other. Frankly, I'm with the young people on this one.   They are absolutely right to value their social relationships more than a night listening to a gifted musician, no matter how good, or how rare the musician and their music might be.

It is wonderful when young people freely choose to seek out the latter sort of musical experience. But I think the "old folkie" mindset is just a rigid way of thinking about and viewing the world, which has little to do with music anyway.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: GUEST,eliza C
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 12:39 PM

hi there,
I am ancient but I've had a lot of work done.
xec

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: Ely
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 12:52 PM

GUEST, russ--If newgrass and contemporary county qualify, American mountain music definitely qualifies.

I'm 25 and I guess I've been a "folkie" all my life (my parents are "Folk Scare" era and were still very much interested in the music during the 1970's and 1980's when I was a kid). I played in a square dance band in college; an honest-to-God, all-acoustic, no-frills, Midwestern square dance band. The Midwest is the place to be for American dancing and music; we didn't get a LOT of young people, but there were some and there certainly are plenty of events.

Texas has a pretty good followings in the Cajun and Mexican traditions but it's "Anglo" component is weaker--most of the young people here are into some sort of country/rock fusion. A lot of it is great music, but it's not what you'd call "folk".

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 01:07 PM

Well, to be fair, young people are always interested in dance music. And it is inherently difficult to dance to Anglo and Anglo American ballads and sea shanties.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: Jeri
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 01:19 PM

The young folks around here seem to be pretty strong as individuals, and in it for the music. We've had a very VERY small number show up on their own and hang around with the old farts. It's important to note that the old farts around here tend to welcome them and respect them as fellow music-lovers. Other young folks may come and bring their friends. They can socialise anywhere, but they like the music and stay.

The young people who come to our sessions aren't primarily concerned with socialising or they wouldn't have fun playing music for 5 hours a week with a bunch of geezers.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 01:24 PM

Not to worry. I think Guest/Leo and others above are right. The young 'uns are out there and coming on strong. Sometimes all it takes is one enthusiastic person to pump it up. In Juneau, Alaska, for instance, one schoolteacher, Belle Mickelson, has made a tremendous difference. Belle teaches math in the middle schools, as it happens, but she uses music for everything from counting to theory, and when they as a class do exceptionally well they are rewarded with music.

At the festival that just ended, at least 30 youngsters that she has taught in this last year performed on stage, from different schools, in different numbers, playing mandolin, guitar, banjo and fiddle and singing songs of old as well as contemporary, and later they jammed in the halls with the old 'uns. It was great fun. And not an electric plug in the bunch.

Oh, yeah. They be fine.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: denise:^)
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 01:24 PM

Not even close to 50 yet...

Sorry to blow your theory!

Denise:^)

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: greg stephens
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 01:26 PM

Actually, the fact that lots of young people dont play folk music or have access to it does bother me. and I spend a large chunk of my life trying to do something about it. But the fact that they dont go to folk clubs doesnt bother me in the least. Folk clubs are no longer a place to go to hear where you can expect to hear folk music, and as has been repeatedly said, why should teenagers wnt to hang out with fifty year olds.
When I was a lad I went to find older people who knew old songs in country pubs, because I was interested. I didnt go out and seek fifty year old people practising their song-writing. Why would that interest a teenager? It didnt interest me, anyway.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 01:47 PM

Well, if the songwriters were the Gershwins, Irving Berlin, Muddy Waters, Robert Johnson, Woody Guthrie, I'd have been plenty interested in seeking them out in my youth. I never encountered any of the "greats" but I did end up sitting across a table from Steve Goodman, a great songwriter who, thank god, didn't limit himself to singing "old songs" to appease Brit and Brit loving "folk music" purists.

If all folks sang was "old songs" we'd run out of music pretty damn quick, methinks.

I just don't get this disparagement of songwriters by you Britfolkers. But then, I've never been the jealous, green-eyed monster type. I think bad Brit songwriters end up singing "folk songs" because they don't have to be embarrassed by their own ineptitude when it comes to songwriting. They can pick and choose the best stuff to make themselves look like better musicians than they really are.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: alanabit
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 01:53 PM

That's fair enough Greg. My question is, are there still old blokes out there in the country pubs who know folk songs? I wonder if you did not just catch the tail end of a way of life which was disappearing along with memories like "Cider With Rosie". Do people in the new professions get together and sing songs? What songs could we expect to hear from a group of Systems Analysts or Food Technicians?

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: Shonagh
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 02:12 PM

Yeah, i spose its quite true to say that most of the young folkies my age are much more interested in performing and there are some totally fantastic players and singers out there! Saying that though, alot of my mates like going to festivals, and not only just musicky ones but dance festivals (aye, traditional not like raves! euuughhhh!imagine me at a rave!!)yeah anyway, i dont actually have a clue what i was goin to say after this but i'll be interested in where this goes.....

Shona (17 and 10months!)

PS. No where near 50!

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: Santa
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 02:14 PM

I don't know about anyone else, but the only places I can go to to get folk music regularly are the local folk clubs. That's where I find out about the festivals etc. I really do not understand this knocking - if you don't like your nearest club go to another. My local club does a mix of traditional, established singer/songwriters, new kids on the block....

When I was young - ahhh - I used to like singer/songwriters and thought traditional music boring (not counting the geordie stuff where I came from, of course!), then I moved to Lancashire and fell in with large numbers of active folkies, singing new and old. Nowadays I prefer the traditional. I suggest that this is because they are the songs that have lasted, the tat have fallen by the wayside. Go hear a new singer songwriter and you get the tat alongside the good stuff!

Not that there aren't good songs coming. Of course there are.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 02:51 PM

"Folkies" are over around-50. They come from an era. They became known as folkies.

Younger people who like folk music would just go by another name. "Young folkers" somehow doesn't seem quite nice...

Younger people who like folk music are all around us..... they just think of themselves differently than we fogies oops I mean folkies. I guess no one has tagged them with a groupname yet.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: michaelr
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 03:25 PM

See this thread.

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: greg stephens
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 04:25 PM

Of course I would have gone out to meet Gershwin or Cole Porter or whatever, I'd have been thrilled. I said I wouldnt have interested, as a teenager, going to watch fifty-year olds practising song-writing. Practising as in practising scales or golf-swings, not as in a doctor practising. I might of course have missed something: i'm just saying I know I would not, as a teenager, have been interested in what tends to go in in folk clubs nowadays. I was interested in folk clubs then, and I was interested in old codgers who knew folksongs in pubs.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: GUEST,angel
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 04:46 PM

Here in the Shetlands there is an incredible amount of musical talent among youngsters which is nurtured in a very supportive environment. Alot of young people get the training, and may well leave it for many years, or play different styles, but once the seed has been planted, they often come back to it in later years. I'm only 24, and I came back a few years ago. It isn't the same culture here as I found in folk clubs and the like in London, older people learn and play with older people to a much greater extent because the stronger community (and often family) ties seem to make the whole thing alot more integrated.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: GUEST,angel
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 04:48 PM

sorry, I meant to say younger and older people play together!

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: Catherine Jayne
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 06:15 PM

Got another 28 years til Im 50!!!

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 06:30 PM

"Old codgers in country pubs who know some folksongs" - that sounds like me and the people I tend to hang out with.

Back in the Sixties in England there weren't too many old codgers around, because in most places the idea of making music yourself and singing old songs had been almost drummed out of society. That's what was meant by referring to it as a revival. And though it's escaped from the spotlight, it's never died out, so there are now a couple of generations around, as well as the young ones.

The sessions and the festivals tend to be where the action is these days, rather than the clubs (with some exceptions), but from what I've seen, there's no shortage of young people, playing music or listening to it, or dancing. There are also a fair number of older people - but then most people in this country are older people anyway, so that's what you'd expect anyway.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: greg stephens
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 06:48 PM

"Back in the 60's in England there weren't too many old codgers around". You're quite right, McGrath, but there were some. You will remember the folk club we used to frequent in the 60's, the Heritage in Oxford, where we all used to happily bawl out the Nightingale( "and they kissed so sweet and comforting, as they clung to each other"). Quite an anthem in the English clubs at the time. Well, what was interesting is that Aubrey Cantwell, the guy that song was collected from, was at the time living not ten miles from the pub we had the folk club in. And Aubrey used to sing it in his pub at home. Interesting parallel universe. Not quite sure what the connection is to this thread(none, I think),,,but intriguing huh? And I was interested, because I went out to Standlake and recorded him singing it. A treasured possession, that tape.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 08:38 PM

Midchuck

OBWTFAT?
Anyway, we worked hard to brainwash our daughter. We dragged her to festivals, concerts, workshops, jams, for years. She tried to escape, but she is now a kick-butt fiddler and backup guitar player of the gods.

GUEST,
Actually festivals have been around forever. What seems to change is the audience. Clifftop is quite new. Been going less than 20 years. But the WV State Folk Festival at Glenville has been around since 1950 and Galax is older than that.

What we geezers have seen is the following pattern. Many many years ago the festivals were full of kids, us. As we got older most of the kids at the festivals were ours. As our children grew up and started having lives and interests of their own, they stopped coming to our festivals. For a while kids were very rare at festivals and we assumed that interest in the music would die with us. But now the kids are back. Some of them are our kids returned like the prodigal son, but many are strangers. They're teens (and even younger) and 20 somethings who have sort of appeared out of nowhere. We're happy but mystified.

Ely,
I'm pretty generous in my definition of folk, but on Mudcat it sometimes pays to be reticent in order to avoid definitional fire-fights.

With your background you're a perfect example of the sort of "kid" (with all due respect. To me anybody under 30 is a "kid") I am NOT surprised to see at places like Clifftop. What surprises me are the people your age and younger who don't share the blessings of your parents' enlightened views on child-rearing. Where did they come from?

alanabit,
"are there still old blokes out there in the country pubs who know folk songs"
In the states, definitely yes. Melvin Wine (WV fiddler), who died this year would've been 94 this April. Our own Jean Ritchie is still going strong.
What's really interesting is watching the people who as kids learned from the old blokes many years ago assume the old bloke mantle. Not all are willing to admit that yes, now they're the old folks.

Shonagh
"there are some totally fantastic players and singers out there"
Got that right. They'll be kicking geezer butts in contests for years to come.

WYSIWYG,
You're right. The young people I know who are into old time music don't think of themselves as folkies. But if I remember correctly, once I made the move to old time music decades ago, I stopped thinking of myself as a folkie.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 08:41 PM

Happy days. But the thing is that the old codgers around these days include a fair number who are essentially the same sort. People who learnt their songs from listening to other people singing them, and have some they learned as kids and have been carrying around in their heads or their notebooks.

As far back as Cecil Sharpe people were always saying they were collecting the last remnants from the last generation of real folksingers. And then another generation turns up, who end up looking and sounding not that different.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: mikey
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 08:49 PM

I'm a guilty over fifty also and I don't mind being stuck in high school in some ways. Three of my four kids love most of the folk music and trad celtic I listen to and buy their own cd's or 'borrow' mine. More often than not the 'borrow' arrangement turns out to be a permanent one though. Not a bad thing at all as far as I'm concerned.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: Naemanson
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 09:51 PM

"...most young people (age is the subject at hand, in case you hadn't noticed) want social interaction with their peers more than they want to pledge allegiance to a particular way of performing music, especially when that particular way of music is intolerantly dictated to them by anal older adults with no tolerance for youthful innovation."

You get that from Kate Rusby? Or John McCusker? Or any of a number of other young performers?

"I think bad Brit songwriters end up singing "folk songs" because they don't have to be embarrassed by their own ineptitude when it comes to songwriting."

I was getting worked up over what GUEST was saying. Then he made the above general statement and I realized he is only expressing his own inner frustrations and bigoted attitude.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 10:06 PM

Most folkies are over fifty, but there are always some younger ones coming along, and you'll meet some of them at the folk festivals. Folk never dies. It just gets completely ignored by the commercial music industry, that's all.

Sort of like being ignored by the rich village idiot who lives in the town mansion and performs human sacrifices on the weekends...

- LH

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: Midchuck
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 10:27 PM

Midchuck

OBWTFAT?

Sorry. Acronym from the Flatpick list. Forgot everyone didn't know it.

Oh, Brother, Where Art Thou? With gratuitous interjection.

P.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: sharyn
Date: 20 Apr 03 - 12:40 AM

Well, I've got five years to go to fifty, six to get over it. I am one of the youngest in my community, but I know a fifteen-year-old who sings sea shanties and a thirty-year-old who is a fine traditional-style singer. My former fiddle teacher, Laura Risk, was nineteen when I met her. There seems to be more family participation in the local (San Francisco) Scottish music community than in the Irish or "folk music" community (generally offshoots of the San Francisco Folk Music Club). Why this is so, I don't know. Unfortunately for me I love Scots ballads but find most Scottish dance tunes boring.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Apr 03 - 02:58 AM

What IS folk music? This is driving me crazy. I know a person shouldn't make comments on the Mudcat without knowing the answer to that question. But I'm still confused. Can someone enlighten me? I'll bet this question's been asked a bazillion times on the Mudcat, but not by me. I'm dying to know.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: greg stephens
Date: 20 Apr 03 - 03:05 AM

No, I am not rising to the question posed by DUEST. Start a new thread!!

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: GUEST,Dawnna
Date: 20 Apr 03 - 03:21 AM

Some younger people like folk music. My fifteen year old daughter likes Celtic folk music, in addition to the top 40 stuff! She performed a folk song for her high school talent show. She has also had two recent opportunities to sing in front of her peers, and chose to sing folk songs (Celtic) both times. The kids listening to her seem to like it. It's not much, but it is surprising, isn't it?

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: mutineer
Date: 20 Apr 03 - 03:56 AM

Yeah, I'm a folkie and I'm only 18.
I have a Celtic folk band going as well and we're all 18 & 19. Check us out : http://www.mutinymusic.cjb.net

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: Gillie
Date: 20 Apr 03 - 04:09 AM

I haven't quite reached 50 yet. My view is that it is up to us to pass the music down to the next generation/s. They are tomorrow's future. Look at the Brat Pack for instance up and coming they certainly are. People like Oige, Damien Barber, Kate Rusby, Mike Newman etc. Etc. Yes folk is still alive!!

Go to a folk festival and see how many young people there really is - O.K. the over 50's still go and they probably out number. Remember the slogan for the Musician's Union "Keep music alive" It is up to us.

It was the best thing that happened to me at the age of 17 and I'm still enjoying and revealing in the music that is still around today. More than likely I'll go out singing!!

Regards,

Gillie

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 20 Apr 03 - 04:49 AM

I'm another who thinks that there may be a shift in interests within folk music amongst younger people rather than a decline in numbers of younger people.

I think that the folk club scene is less appealing and that traditional ballad singing may be loosing out but the instrumental side is perhaps gaining. There seems to me to be far more people looking beyond singing and strumming chords on guitar now. Sessions also seem more popular.

I went to a session a couple of weeks ago where I'd guess I was one of two over 40s in the room and the majority were in thier 20s. I didn't feel as if I was being looked upon as an "old fart" so I don't think there is any reason to believe the younger ones don't want the older ones around - just a case of enjoy thier music and session for what it is. This (almost entierely instrumental) one had Irish, English, French, blues, etc.

If there really are shifts, perhaps it is because a greater range of folk music and of instruments are easily accessible rather than an age thing. Perhaps people are finding some of the tunes and dance music more exciting than traditional ballads. Perhaps people are finding joining in more pleasurable than performing a spot of 3 in a folk club. I know I do.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: GUEST,Claymore
Date: 20 Apr 03 - 11:27 PM

At 57 I qualify as an old folkie, and most of the people who gather at O'Hurleys who are of that certain age know the Folk Scare songs word for word. But I do notice that Old Time music is bringing a whole new generation into the fold, and our contra dances are so full of the local high school and college students that we now have to pipe the music into the lower floor of our dance hall, in order not to violate the fire regulations. And our Irish and OT jams are evenly matched throughout the ages. The fiddler taking a cut against my banjo or guitar can be anywhere from 15 to 50. And those who don't play, are clogging up a storm. (In fact, our best local clogger is now teaching a class with a bunch of the youngsters, just prior to the jam on Thursday nights).

It may be that the words of most of the protest songs which made up so much of the music of that era, now sound so dated, whereas the music is ageless. And if they feel like it, the youngsters can make up their own words...

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: Gurney
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 12:24 AM

Does it really matter? Any music survives purely by its merit and popularity, and I mean it's popularity with singers/players.

Songs like 'Pearly Shells' and 'Ten Guitars' achieved huge popularity with (some) audiences, but are there any performers who will do them, except on request?
I feel that a lot of songs that 'we' like have too much relevence and power to ever completely die, and even if clubs and festivals go under, someone like Lonnie Donovan will start the circle over again. Hope the Mudcat lyrics are on hard-copy, acid-free paper for the researchers, supposing the spoilers have wrecked the Web by then.

This missive is a little disjointed. I'm trying to say that I think folk performers will go on doing their thing, and the VENUES will change. Hope it is less generational in future.
Chris, WELL over 50.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: alanabit
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 03:42 AM

I am glad to hear it is happening in some other places. I know that it is alive among some of the ethnic minorities in Germany. If there is a wedding, say Greek, Turkish or Polish, they are likely to have music and dancing from their culture. German folk music is the last thing you would expect to hear at a German wedding - and sadly, the idea of hearing English folk music at an English wedding would raise only a snigger of ridicule.
I have made it clear enough elsewhere that I have no nostalgia for the Irish Pub scene. One thing did impress me though. If you get a group of Irish guys sitting around after hours, they are quite likely to start singing some of their songs. Some will be old and some will be new. The tradition is alive and well there because it is something which has remained unbroken in their culture. Get a group of English people sitting around, and most would be embarrassed to admit that they knew even one folk song. They usually regard it as quaint and silly.
The practice of coming together and making music - learning old songs and tunes, changing them and adding new ones is practised by only a tiny minority. It is encouraging to hear that it is flourishing in other parts of the world, but I don't see much evidence that it is surviving in Germany or England, the two countries which I know best. I do not really want to get all my music from machines - but it puts me in a very small minority!

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 04:57 AM

Granted, it's a subculture in England, but it's a lively enough subculture, involving several generations - when people who are involved in folk music have weddings it's pretty common for the music to be actively present. And that doesn't even just mean people who are active performers.

It's a hybrid sort of music, with the different traditions mixing in, but that's how its always beeen really.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 05:37 AM

I'm over 50 and organize a folk club in the USA. You cannot "run" a folk club - you need too much help.
Our problem is that there is such an enormous wealth of talent out there looking for places to play, it makes it difficult to decide who to hire. We try to balance our program between young/older/male/female/traditional/contemporary performers so that we can present the broad spectrum of acoustic music. In the past year 66% of our performers were under 50. 45% were under 40. 17% were under 30.
The music is alive.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: GUEST,tooligan
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 06:17 AM

I listen to my son's band writing their songs and can't help thinking this is Folk Music of today, even though it is electric and loud. The Beatles wrote great folk songs and presented them in the style of the day as have many other bands. The English traditional songs are will survive if people want them to survive just like most other things in life. Here in Scotland, we don't have a problem, we just play music and are proud of our culture from wherever it came.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: fiddler
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 06:45 AM

Young folkies do exists - Look a tthe british festival scene, I judged some excelent music in St albans recently all musicians and singers under 25.

AND

As I reach 50 next week then I'm not over 50 for another year and a week!!!!

Not Desponant but despotic of Reading UK!

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: Mugwump
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 06:46 AM

No - I am 47!

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 07:01 AM

folk music doesn't come and go it just changes shape. as it did in the forties fifties and sixties and is still doing. i'm just some punk that sees the same in leadbelly, pete seeger, pentangle and james yorkston, godspeed you! black emperor, lambchop. In my experience, the over-50s 'folkies' are the ones who appreciate tradition over innovation. fair enough, but folk music is the music of the here and now, of people in their everyday, in their human condition. and always was. and as we change the music changes. but ultimately it will always come back to somebody expressing their situation with a song that is easily understood. like the new Good Charlotte song.
Age 23 1/2

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: GUEST,connie
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 08:33 AM

No, I'm 49! I recently became introduced to folk music & love it.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: GUEST,Eliza C
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 08:47 AM

I think if you like folk music you are a folkie no matter what age you are. It is pretty confusing to start giving every new generation a new "tag", and stops the continuity that people who are interested in traditional music want and promote.
Guest who was complaining about British singer-songwriter antipathy-The British folk scene has resisted the introduction of singer-songwriters because it started from an interest in the traditions of this country, and to a larger extent believes quite rightly that singer-songwriters can get their platform anywhere, whereas that is not the case with our endangered traditional music. The scene has now moved on and changed with the times as it was bound to all along and there are still some people who wish it wasn't so; I am afraid that although I don't always agree with them I can't blame them and neither should you.
When it becomes easier to sing trad songs at your average open-mic night we will all shut up. Til then, if no-one makes the distinction and speaks their mind about it we could inadvertantly lose a lot of material and take ourselves back forty years to when information about our culture was extremely hard to come by. The trade of the singer-songwriter is also much more reliant on the cult of personality, the ego, and some think that traditional music is antithesis to that.
Surely that doesn't deserve that kind of antagonistic post? If you think about it it makes sense.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: GUEST,angel
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 09:15 AM

Sharyn, I'm wondering if the Scottish tunes you learnt were accompanied by dance as well. Dance music always seems to be me to be a bit repetitive (I used to be a techno DJ too), but I guess that's because it is something to shake your booty to, rather than sit and ponder the inner depths of. Its not meant as a criticism, bits and bobs just lose their original meaning/effect when taken out of the context they were written in.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: CET
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 09:45 AM

It's interesting how the bigotry and small-mindedness is coming not from the "elitist" traditional music gang, but from people like GUEST who seem to be bubbling over with contempt for anyone who prefers traditional music. Speaking for myself, I gravitate to traditional music because it is more interesting, more beautiful and more powerful than most stuff available now. However, it's important to stress the qualifying word "most". All the great traditional songs were created by somebody, even Lord Randall. As somebody else pointed out, the traditional songs we know today have survived because they were important enough to somebody to learn and pass them on. There are fine songwriters active today, just as there have always been, and I will go out of my way to listen to them, and I will spend more money than I should on their CDs. However, what I do not have time for is the whiney, self-indulgent, tuneless, and musically ignorant type of musician that is so common at some festivals. These are the folks that, if you ask them if they know any traditional songs, would look at you as if you had suggested they might want to indulge in unnatural acts with small, furry animals.

I also don't understand why, to follow up on an earlier post on this thread, if you like Ricky Skaggs, Roseanne Cash or Kathy Moffat (as I do), it should be necessary to denigrate sea shanties or traditional music from, say, the British Isles or New England.

Anyway, back to the thread topic. I have sometimes found it depressing to find myself, at 46, among the younger crowd at folk events. We don't have too many folk clubs in Canada, so I can't comment on the folk club scene, but I have noticed the phenomenon at various festivals. However, there are some encouraging signs too. If you want to see a good mix of ages, go the Celtic College in Goderich, Ontario in August, and the Celtic Roots Festival that follows immediately after. I heard fabulous traditional music in the Orkney Islands played by people of all ages. Lots of people in this thread have had similar experiences.

I think if people who know traditional music care enough to pass it on to their children, or to younger musicians and singers, some of the seeds will take root. My father listened to classical music, not folk, and I resisted. I didn't understand it. Now I occasionally amaze myself by realizing that I like listening to opera. I love the singing of Carlo Bergonzi and Jussi Bjoerling. I would walk barefoot through the snow for a ticket to a Bryn Terfel concert.

The days of the great folk scare are never coming back. That's OK. The music hasn't gone away, and I doubt that it will in the future.

CET

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: Schantieman
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 09:53 AM

Well said, Eliza.

I'm in my mid forties and am usually one of the youngest at the Bothy. We do sometimes getr yougsters coming along but they don't usually stay.   There *are* youngsters about - my daughter is seven and occasionally sings, my friends eldest son is 23 and sings and plays a lot. Then there's Hekety.   And so it goes on.

Steve

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 09:57 AM

"people like GUEST" - there are nine posts in this thread from "GUEST", so there's no way if there's one of them or nine of them, so it's no point getting into arguments with them/him/her.

.. if you like folk music you are a folkie no matter what age you are. It is pretty confusing to start giving every new generation a new "tag", and stops the continuity..." Absolutely.

And it's just not true that there's any antipathy in the folk scen in England to people who write songs. New songs with roots in the folk tarditions are coming through all the time, and good songs too - but the focus tends to be on the songs rather than the singer. More often than not people don't have a clue who actually wrote a song, or who famous has recorded it. And that's how it should be.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: Jim Colbert
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 10:12 AM

I'm 41, and in my area seems like the bulk of them are in my age range- tend to be a bit older crowd at the more traditional stuff, a bit more of a mix for some of the more contemporary folkies, say, Peter Mulvey or Richard Shindell.

I think some of the younger people I know who do enjoy folk/acoustic, have parents that have exposed them to more than just the flavors of the week... in fact some of them have quite diverse tastes, and I think that's a great thing.

Bearded, balding and bellies comprises the bulk of the people I see around me at the average area show though!

jim

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 10:22 AM

I'm 15. I know a LOT of teens who play music and dance. And a lot of my adult friends have little kids who are growing up in the culture. It isn't going to die, if that's what you want to know. Although I do speak for the traditional northern (in New England, the Irish and New England music/dance) folk scene mostly.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: Bernard
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 11:09 AM

Whilst it's certainly true that there aren't as many thriving folk clubs in the Manchester (UK) area as there used to be, there are enough left to demonstrate that us 'bearded balding bellies' have left a legacy that the young 'uns are picking up on.

The Railway folk club in Heatley, for example, is still thriving after over twenty years, with weekly audiences in excess of forty (people, not age!). Singers' Nights attract a fairly even balance of performers and listeners, and the age range of regulars is from 16 to 80!

A good balance of traditional and contemporary music is essential; I'm not keen on some singer-songwriters who seem so conceited as to think an audience will put up with their own material for the whole evening - they should really intersperse their own stuff with tried-and-tested material... but that's just my opinion...!!

Vin Garbutt is a good examples of someone who writes good songs, but is prepared to vary his material with that of others; Pete Coe is another...

Harvey Andrews is a good example of someone who can carry the evening entirely with his own high quality material; Allan Taylor is another...

I'd rather not cite any bad examples here, though...!

Spiers and Boden are a duo whose repertoire is almost entirely traditional music, but with their own individual interpretation, and their combined age doesn't add up to 'over fifty' yet! They are able to appeal to the older folkies, whilst encouraging the youngsters to have a go. If you haven't seen them yet, it's time you did!

I suppose my anser to the question 'Are all folkies over fifty' really depends on the actual definition of 'folkies'. If folkies are those who were around folk clubs in the 1960s (as I was), then the answer has to be 'yes'.

If 'folkies' are those who enjoy good folk music, then the answer must be 'no'.

In defining 'folkies' I don't believe that we should differentiate between listeners and performers; nor should we differentiate between those who perform traditional songs, tunes and poetry and those who write their own material. To do so suggests some form of 'elitism' which has been seen to be destructive in the past... and which still exists in some clubs.

The only criterion is the style of the music... if it is in the folk idiom, or not. There are some performers getting gigs in folk clubs whose material is anything but in the folk idiom...

But that's another debate...

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: Kate
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 11:19 AM

I'm 23 and have a passion for folk music. I particularly enjoy singing traditional English music, and the appeal is not so much about performing but listening and learning about the music. I also love going to traditional jamming sessions (although I don't play), and I have even fuelled my dads interest in it. I'd label myself a folkie, although many of my age group would be surprised to hear this. I think many of them imagine folkies to be dressed in tie-dye, cardigans and sandals! They'd certainly not expect someone who also likes Drum and Base, House (yes those 'repetitive beats'!) and the odd bit of pop music to be into folk music. On the one hand I've had my peers look at me with disgust when they hear I like folk, but on the other -I know of many young folkies and the number of them is gradually rising.

I think in attracting younger folkies into the scene it's important to be positive about the music - not dwell on the fact there aren't so many of our age group. There is nothing better than hearing what inspires people about the music and it's origins. Also I believe that you can't be too purist about the folk music scene. There are definitely sessions that benefit from being purely traditional, but gigs and festivals that includes more modern twists to the genre play there part. I have many friends that have been to a good Roots gig with bands like Shooglenifty and Rory Mcloud (apologies to name only a couple) and have been persuaded to branch into the more traditional side of things. This is the way many revivals have started!

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: wilco
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 11:45 AM

The situation in urban UK is very different that in USA.
    I have eight children (16 -32) and 3.5 grandchildren. Young people love some kinds of "folk" music. Little children like all of the old stuff. Teenagers like it too. if it's done to their tastes.
    Some of what I see is a folk "elitism," that is very exclusive.
New people, new music, new arrangements aren't wanted or encouraged. We have that identical problem here in our local folk music association; it's like a private club where the sixty-year-olds play the same music to the same crowd that dwindles every year.
    My approach has been to tie the music with history, personalize it with genelogy, and make it fun and relevant to young people.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: Bernard
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 12:26 PM

Glad to hear it, Kate! Enthusiasm for one music style should never preclude enthusiasm for any other style. My own musical tastes are very wide and varied - people who ride in my car never know what to expect to hear on my car stereo! Jimi Hendrix, Beethoven, Dire Straits, J.S. Bach organ music, Fairport Convention, Amy Grant, Jane and Amanda Threlfall, Bluegrass banjo... I enjoy variety.


wilco48: yes, exactly - just the elitism I was referring to.

It's one thing to keep traditions alive, and another thing to kill them off through resistance to change.

Folk music is a living tradition, which is why the apparent oxymoron of 'modern folk' must be nurtured. But it should not be nurtured to the exclusion and eventual loss of tradition... a fine line.

But what counts as 'modern folk'? Here in the UK, Country and Western, Jazz, and Blues all seem to creep into folk clubs, and I'm not so sure that it is appropriate... yet some - but by no means all - Beatles' songs (and others) seem to fit into the 'folk genre' quite comfortably... possibly because us fifty-something folkies also grew up in that era.

'Folk' is a very wide term which can legitimately be applied to many forms of music on the premise that it is 'music for the people'. NOT my own opinion, BTW. Just quoting.

The danger with becoming too diverse is a loss of identity. Strange how so many non-folk people here in the UK equate 'Folk' with 'Country and Western', yet the two are really poles apart.

I am classified as a 'Folk' performer, yet my repertoire includes not only traditional and contemporary 'folk', but also Bluegrass, Music Hall and, yes, even some Beatles' and Stones' songs...! In some cases it is the style of performance, rather than the music itself...

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: Marje
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 12:57 PM

One point that's been touched on but not developed is that a lot of the 50-plus - oh, OK let's say 40-plus - folkies are relatively new to the scene. While there are many who've been involved continuously since the 6os revival, there are also many who've only taken up an instrument or found their voice in middle age. I used to find it a bit worrying that sessions and clubs are so middle-aged, but now that I realise there are still new people coming in, the idea of the "silver session" doesn't fill me with the same despondency.

Instrumental music seems to appeal more than song to the younger people in the UK. There are some strong solo singers, but the idea of singing together in a crowd seems a bit alien to most of the younger folkies, which is a shame.

There have been a couple of strange comments to the effect that you can't find people playing or singing English music in pubs or at weddings nowadays - well, you can in Sussex, and I know you can in other counties too.

And as for weddings and special parties, barn dances are extremely popular in England even among those who don't normally get involved with folk music. The music played is predominantly English dance music, probably with a bit of Irish, Scots and American. The sad thing is that most of the guests won't even realise it was English music they were dancing to, and will tend to assume it was probably Irish.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 01:28 PM

Ref: Marje. What you say about older people being new to the scene is interesting. When people stop working they look for an occupation and for some this can mean taking up an instrument and/or singing. I've noticed myself, in England anyway, that a lot of people, often couples, who went to clubs in their younger days, are returning. Having spent the last 20 years or so in raising families and being committed to work, they now have more free time to go out, to pick up where they left off playing their instruments and singing years ago, and also just to go out for an evenings entertainment. This is good, but I do notice that their material is often set back in the period in which they left off! But, hey, they are making live music and that has got to be good.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: Kim C
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 02:31 PM

I'm 35, Mister is 47.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: GUEST,Peter from Essex
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 03:17 PM

A Scottish university hired a coach for IVFDF so the younger people are around. The average age at Knees Up Cecil Sharp last Friday was way lower than at any song club.

Us old farts in the song clubs have just got to admit that we are no longer the young, radical cutting edge of folk music.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: GUEST,Folk Music Society of Huntington, New York
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 03:28 PM

Folk Songs have no age. We do concerts a month and get over 100 people for each one. We have singer songwriters, who are younger, and performers who do the traditional songs.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: harvey andrews
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 03:47 PM

Eliza I find your antipathy to British "singer-songwriters" depressing.
McColl, Tawney, McTell, Garbutt,Bogle,Caddick,etc, etc. surely they have graced the folk music scene of the past 40 years?
Why do you feel the need to defend the shunning of their contribution and to consign them to the dustbin.
Every folk song was written by a singer/songwriter at some time in history. Songs are not written by committee and do not appear from thin air. Surely someone who understands British traditions and history should write the songs for our generations that are not just Tin Pan Alley "lurve" songs?
Believe me as a writer of song stories about the lives of "ordinary" people for 40 years it is just as difficult to get a platform as it is for a purely traditional performer.
Or does the term "singer-songwriter" now mean something different to you than it does to me and my generation?
I think those I've named above have made a massive contribution to the body of British song. So what are we supposed to call them and do you count their contribution and that of others of their ilk as naught?

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: Deckman
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 03:58 PM

I have been enjoying this thread. What I'm going to post doesn't answer the question directly, but I do think you'll find it interesting and germaine to the point. My friend Don Firth and I were very active singing in the coffee houses in Seatle in the late fifties. This year The Pacific Northwest Folk Life Festival contacted us about doing a concert. We have been doing some planning with them and we have been able to locate and round up about a dozen other performers from those years. As a result, we are all going to paraded on stage for a two and half hour concert and reunion sing thing. I'm sure there will be quite a collection of wheelchairs, walkers and canes! I did suggest the concert be titled "The Olde Fartz Concert," but I don't think that title will make the program! Oh well. CHEERS, Bob(deckman)Nelson

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: GUEST,baillie
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 04:30 PM

...No, I'm only 48!!!

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: chip a
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 04:43 PM

Don't know about "folk" .... what is that anyway? Just kidding! There are LOTS of young people into "Old Time". I'm in my late fifties and I'm generally older than most at jams and festivals. I think the younger ones are much more likely to be pickers and/or singers than just listeners.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: Beccy
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 04:48 PM

I'm 28.

(Yes- that's all...) I have Robert Service syndrome (was a chef, worked in advertising, a dental office, a sneaker store, a Christian camp (well, okay- my Dad ran that- but I still pulled a paycheck...) a Chinese restaurant and an ice cream shop and if I'm not better for it, at least I'm crazier!) I started working early in life and now I'm home with my 3 (soon to be 4) kids. I was raised on folk music and now I perform it despite having focused on jam bands for a long time.   I think my life experience makes me not an old folie, but a folkie from way back :-)

Beccy

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: John Routledge
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 06:58 PM

The further away from "folk" the younger the audience. Discuss :0)

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: cobber
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 07:05 PM

Thanks for all the responses. I don't feel so alone and maybe I'll lumber happily towards extinction now. Cheers

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 07:24 PM

God preserve us from the assumptions which a phrase like "the young, radical cutting edge of folk music" threatens to unleash, if it is not understood in a context that also values the old radical foundations of folk music. Radical implies roots.

New ways of interpreting music, and new tunes and new songs - they are fine. But they are part of a broader picture, and they grow out of a rich tradition. They need that, and we need it. And that's what I took Eliza as implying.

Imagining that there has to be a choice, as if holding to the old involved rejecting the new, or vice versa, is dangerous nonsense. Yes, individuals will focus their attention on one aspect rather than another, but that's entirely a different thing. I write songs and more often than not I sing them rather than traditional songs - but an evening which is just made up of people singing new songs to each other can be a very dispiriting thing.

I was at an event not that long ago, and in one room there was a session going, with a mixture of traditional music and traditional songs, and new songs - and in the room across the passage there was a dedicated open mike for singer-songwriters. I sang in both - but the session was so much more alive and exhilarating. The old and the new need each other, and the fact that this is understood is what is so precious about folk music, wherever it takes place.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: harvey andrews
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 08:10 PM

Agreed McGrath. But Eliza... "Guest who was complaining about British singer-songwriter antipathy-The British folk scene has resisted the introduction of singer-songwriters because it started from an interest in the traditions of this country, and to a larger extent believes quite rightly that singer-songwriters can get their platform anywhere"... seemed to be espousing exclusion not inclusion, with which I totally agree.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: graywolf1980
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 08:52 PM

22 here and love old time country/mountain music (listening for over 5 years). Just got the 7 CD set of "Kentucky Mountain Music," and it is worth every penny!!!

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: GUEST,walkerandandy.com
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 09:01 PM

Kids, guess what! We are a folk band and our age is 110 and there are only TWO members! Here is the fun part, we play a few original things but when we do MTA, Greenback Dollar, JetPlane, or Rustin In The Rain, the younger people eat it up. We always ask if they know the songs and if they say no then we tell them we wrote every
dang one of them!

We are playing all summer and fall in the Smoky Mountains and would love to have anyone who likes us "older" folks music to drop by.
If you can, visit walkerandandy.com and check out DeadBeat Petes, that is where we will be and it has all the info on how to get there.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: Melani
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 10:07 PM

I actually know one who is only 19--of course, she's my daughter!

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 10:26 PM

G'day all,

Well, I've just come home from the (Australian) National Folk Festival, over Easter in Canberra, Australian Capital Territory. I got to see lots of my old friends ... some even older than me and I've been active in the "Folk" scene for more than 40 years.

I also got to see some great young players and groups ... of course the peak might be young people like Nancy Kerr and James Fagan (I've known Jame's parents since he was a small ankle-biter!) ... even younger great players. The most noticeable to me, perhaps, were associated with people I've known for many years, but there were also fine young players I've never heard before - playing new and interesting music as well as enjoying fine old songs and music from what is the distance past ... even to me!

The group of friends, with whom I camped at the (A)NFF mostly had some of their children with them ... because they wanted to be there ... enjoying folk songs, traditional music, dances from Australia's past ... and the many traditions that have blended to form Australia.

I think there is an illusion caused because, as we age, we concentrate on our contempories - and don't see where the tradition has gone.

Regards,

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: Cluin
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 12:09 AM

Not yet. Give me another 10 years.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: Marje
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 04:33 AM

With regard to trad versus recently-composed songs: Eliza had some very wise thoughts to offer about the value of traditional material. This doesn't mean that nothing recent has any value, but singer-songwriters who are in the music scene are capable of promoting their own songs. The traditional material no longer has a live composer around to help it along, and so it's more vulnerable.

It also seems to me that the folk process has preserved only the best of the tradtional songs. Songs with bad lyrics or a dull tune tend to get dropped from the repertoire, or else people adapt them by putting them to new tunes and pruning our the worst lyrics, perhaps adding new verses or fusing two versions to come up with one, better one.

Now, this doesn't happen so easily with new songs. Some of the songs that are newly-written are wonderful stuff which is quickly assimilated and passed on by lots of singers. But many more are either flawed or complete crap. The songwriter who carries these songs may not be able to distinguish between the good and the bad, and will continue to inflict third-rate material on the audience. And others will hesitate to alter material that is, either formally or implicitly, the intellectual property of the composer. There's a sort of natural selection process that applies itself to folk song, weeding out the weaker stuff, and the newer material hasn't been subjected to this. This doesn't make it all bad, but leaves a higher proportion of rubbish around than soome of us would wish.

When we look at the respected songwriters mentioned by Harvey, to some extent the selection process has already been at work on them. Countless other songwriters of the 60s and 70s have sunk without trace. And it's probably the case that even the successful people have written songs that are now, with good reason, forgotten. Forty years is a long time, even in folk music, and that's why the songs that survive from early in the revival are, on the whole, robust, memorable songs that are worth singing, just like the best of traditional songs.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: greg stephens
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 04:59 AM

Re Harvey Andrews having a go at Eliza C and her alleged antipathy to singer-songwriters. No-one (well, hardly anyone) obects to singer-songriters as such, and of course we all value Cyril Tawney songs etc etc. The "anitpathy" only happens when the songwriters become a dominant and defining majority in whatver group is making music. At that point it may become of no interest to those interested primarily in folk. I loved folk clubs when they had mostly tradtional material, enlivened by new songs, flamenco guitairst, ragtime pianists and fiddlers who could play "The Flight of the Bumble-bee" amazingly fast. A Pigeon Fnciers Club can easily and enjoyably accommodate a vistor who brings a budgerigar...but when you get to 70% budgerigars the original Pigeon Fanciers will start to fold their tents and slip away.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 05:07 AM

It's when people start bringing their ferrets it really gets dodgy...

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: MikeofNorthumbria
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 09:40 AM

My dear friends,

Why do we music-lovers spend so much time and energy hurling insults, cliches (and, I admit, occasional words of wisdom) at each other?

Why don't we apply these valuable resources to playing and singing the music we love, to whoever may be interested - old, middle-aged or young - in any accessible venue - folk-club, pub-session, festival campsite or front-parlour get-together?

Yes, I know that by adding to this thread I'm sawing off the branch I'm sitting on ... but come on ... haven't we had of these sterile disputes over the past decades? Let's argue less, and sing and play more!

Wassail!

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 11:00 AM

To some extent it's ceremonial. Morris dancers perform by way of ritualised battles. We use arguments instead of sticks, that's all. Of course it can get rather bloody at times, in both cases.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: Marje
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 11:20 AM

To Mike of Northumbria: Look, this is a discussion forum. That's what it's for, talking about things. Last night I played some music but you didn't hear me; all you'll get on a discussion forum is - well, discussion. It doesn't mean we don't like or respect each other or that we don't want to make music, just that there are issues we like to talk about together, and maybe even disagree about from time to time. I don't really know what you expect to find happening here if we're not allowed to have a bit of an argument about the things that matter to us. Go on, join in and provoke us a bit! Or was that what you were doing? :-)

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: Bernard
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 03:28 PM

A healthy debate makes each one of us look at our own opinions and values, and maybe make adjustments where necessary. Otherwise we become insular and start to stagnate... which is precisely why some folk clubs ceased to exist...

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: running.hare
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 04:29 PM

At 22 I'm proud to call myself a folkie,

& durring the couple of years I've been on the folk scene I've 'discovered' an ever increasing number of other young people hovering around, it's getting to the point where I almost forget to be surprised when some1 else under 40 turns up at one of my local folk clubs! (& yes the plural was intentional)

I sing (not having the hand-eye co-ordination to deal with an external instrument) & am told I do it well.
My repitoir is dictated by what I like. If a song calls to me I'll go out of my way to learn it - weather it's trad, or is being sung by it's writter (providing they dont mind me nicking their song! & if they do I might just pick it up NE way & keep it to myself ;)) If I realy dont like it I'll quietly pop to the bar, or loo.
I enjoy listening to good music as much as I enjoy making it, as far as I'm concerned the two are indivisable.

Going back to the original point about concerts full of older folkies, praps this is just because being at a social age & with a thirst to learn we'd rather buy a dring or four in a pub while partisipateing in an interactive session (be that a free for all or turns round the room)with a variety of interesting people, than pay twenty odd quid to sit still (proven to be bad for learning) in a darkend audertarium while a light shines on the "star".
Camping at feastivals also calls to our social instincts, & If you can "sing for your supper" as I did @ last yrs Swanage feastival so much the better!

The further our money goes the happier we are!!!

Lizabee
22yrs 4mths

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 05:07 PM

£20 quid for a concert? Blimey, I've never gone to one costing that sort of money...

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: GUEST,julia
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 06:11 PM

I'm 20 (almost). Here's my impression: In the US (East Coast) the instrumental traditions have a large following. This includes old time, irish, new england contra and other things I'm forgetting right now. There are also young people that sing unacompanied stuff in the morris crouds and there are shape note singers and people into Balkan stuff. BUT, I still have trouble finding anyone who's comfortable singing ballads or other solo unacompanied stuff. I think this is because nobody is taught to listen to others in a non-performance, informal setting. They all want to sing participatory songs. And it's awkward to be the only one who wants to share a ballad when everyone else does stuff that others can join in on, it becomes more of an egotistical performance than it should have to be. I'm busy lending my music with the hopes that if people listen to unacompanied singing they'll learn some stuff and the situation will change (mind you, not so you old folkies can die happily, but so that when you're not around anymore, I can live happily)
julia

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: greg stephens
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 06:12 PM

MikeofNorthumbria..against all this controversy,huh? I have a copy of an argumentative magazine article you wrote on this very topic in I think 1965, and I am very tempted to type it out and add it to this thread: except I'm too busy making music.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: GUEST,Peter from Essex
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 06:15 PM

You should get out more Kevin. £20 for a decent seat at the RFH or Barbican isn't bad. For a folk concert at the QEH between £14 and £18.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: GUEST,Eliza C
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 06:25 PM

Harvey,
I did not say that I totally agreed with the people who have that antipathy, but I did say that I don't blame them feeling protective of something so fragile as our traditional music and customs. I had a great deal of suspicion and antipathy aimed at me when I started writing my own stuff. I had a very depressing conversation with Rose Kemp when I was on the Oysterband Big Session tour: basically her choice of material (her own) has put her in the line of fire from some very hardline people. She has quite literally had older folkie people approaching her since she was a young teenager asking her in effect "who do you think you are to perform your own songs, why do you think you are better than the tradition?". I wholly disagree with these bigots and wish they would have had some subtlety in dealing with a young performer; they have put her off the folk scene for life by making her feel so worthless and unwelcome. I think, paradoxically, that they mean well, and as I say, I understand them, but I don't agree with them as a rule.
Just to clarify..
cheers,
eliza x

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 06:32 PM

I'm not disputing it's possible to buy pricey tickets in plush concert halls. I just prefer to hear the music in different settings, with different audiences.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: harvey andrews
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 07:06 PM

Ah, I understand Eliza.
"in the line of fire from some very hardline people. She has quite literally had older folkie people approaching her since she was a young teenager asking her in effect "who do you think you are to perform your own songs, why do you think you are better than the tradition?".
I've had it for forty years, but much more so in the last ten due to a certain........but then, let's not go there eh?
I think what we need in the UK is a festival for songwriters young and old to exchange and share our love of the art and craft as many festivals celebrate the tradition. There is room for all but it's not easy to get the creative people together. On the one hand there is the commercial imperative of the big festivals and on the other the bigotry we both abhor. I have recently had the privilege of holding a songwriting week in France, and will be doing so again this year. The enthusiasm of the pupils was like a blood transfusion. I had been so long battling against joylessness and judgmentalism that my own enthusiasm had been finally blunted a little. However, the week rejuvenated me.
I don't know Rose's work but I wish her longevity and an ability to face bigotry with equanimity and a sense of her own worth.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: GUEST,Eliza C
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 07:15 PM

Good idea. It would be a nice thing to see. Chances are no-one would take it on as people are unlikely to go and see a load of no-names. Sigh.
x eliza

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: harvey andrews
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 07:20 PM

Well, I, and others, have a fair sized mailing list and the name Carthy carries some weight. I don't think "celebrity" is what we, or our audience is about. It doesn't have to be big...only started.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: GUEST,Eliza C
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 07:30 PM

Alright. Get in touch.
x e

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: cockney
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 07:44 PM

What's love got to do with it?

Hu?

I'm 73 and I've never felt better.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: harvey andrews
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 07:46 PM

will do.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: curmudgeon
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 08:01 PM

If no one minds, I'd like to take this thread back a bit. I don't know if there's something in the water or in the beer, but we who converge weekly in coastal New Hampshire are most fortunate in having a growing number of younger musicians and singers coming on board.

The Old Guard, graybeards, baldpates, bellies and all, is mostly well over fifty. Some of us have been friends for nearly forty years and we've been gathering weekly for nearly twenty. We have always welcomed new people, the younger the better. The need for this was brought home abruptly last year when we lost one of the finest singers and philanthrophists any of us have ever known. Now more than ever do we need youger folk to take up the challenge and learn the old songs and tunes.

We have an 18 year old concertina/button accordion/ fiddle/ tenor banjo player who can already play circles around most of us; he also can sing but won't for shyness. Another fiddle player is off at her first year of college so doesn't come round that much. We have a 30 something lad who discovered trad songs 5 years ago and keeps coming back for more. He's signing on to be my apprentice and with a bit of luck, we'll be getting a grant to help things along. There must be at least another dozen or so of 20-30 year olds who are coming regularly.

Make the music accessible and they'll come to it. These old songs have a lot to say which is why they're still being sung. But one cannot expect the youger generations to go digging in old books and used record shops. Sing Out and you will be heard -- Tom

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 08:02 PM

That looks really sad.

Perhaps we should be looking at Festivals rather than clubs. (How many "pop" fans go to "pop" clubs?)

In fact there has been a very comprehensive survey done on folk festivals see........http://www.afouk.org/advocacy.htm

which gives the lie to the stereotype.

Read and inwardly digest. Folk is cool amongst the young..........folk clubs aren't.

Discussion on the why's and wherefore's of this very welcome.

Dave

Subject: A young folk novice.
From: GUEST,J. Clifford Dyer
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 12:03 AM

I'm a 25 year old. I've been listening to bluegrass a bit for a couple years now. My tastes have recently started shifting from the Bela Fleck type stuff to the more traditional. And like the trend noted many times above, my interest is in playing more than being in the audience. Granted, I skimmed past most of the discussion, (there are over a hundred posts, and it's late) but in all the mentions of this trend, noone offered an explanation as to why this is the case. For me, the draw is that I'm really tired of having all of my music given to me by record companies. I'm tired of not being able to enjoy an evening with friends without spending money on it. I'd like to be able to sit around and just sing songs. And it seems to me that in order to do that, you need a body of songs that everyone knows, and that are designed to be sung by real people, not performers, elites, and specialists. The structure of folk songs is designed for this: lots of (meaningful) repetition, short verses, simple harmonies (in many cases), and a large focus on the choruses. Rock music is too much designed for performance settings. I'm not entirely sure, but I think this is a common sentiment among the folk-inclined of my generation. For this reason, you don't see many of us at folk clubs. We can be fed our pop music in clubs. Folk scratches a different itch.

curmudgeon:

> These old songs have a lot to say which is why they're still
> being sung. But one cannot expect the youger generations to go
> digging in old books and used record shops. Sing Out and you
> will be heard

You would be surprised what we youngsters will do when we're so inclined. Record shop mining is still alive and well. Except it's not how you would expect it. It's mostly being done by DJs. I know it probably sounds tragic to have your music picked at for five second samples, but there's actually a lot to be said for the DJ culture. It's one of the few "cool" things these days that actually encourages a mentality of discipline and excellence. I don't know your musical tastes, but if you can bear the music, I'd highly recommend you check out a documentary called "Scratch." It's a young art form--probably only been around for twenty years or so, but it is just now starting develop an inkling of a sense of its own historicity, and that is leading to a new understanding of how older music should or could be used.

Just some thoughts.

Cheers,
Cliff

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 05:57 AM

But one cannot expect the younger generations to go
digging in old books and used record shops.

Can't see why not. Doing things like that has always seemed to be the way people get the feeling that this is something they have discovered and which they own. With the modification that for "the younger generations", as well as the old books and the record shops, there is the internet for digging around in.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 08:37 AM

And also, of course, the old codgers sitting in pubs.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: sharyn
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 09:42 PM

GUEST Julia,

I run a traditional ballad-singing group in the San Francisco Bay Area in California, open to those who sing and enjoy listening to traditional material. If you are ever on this coast and want to come, we'd be delighted to have you (just PM me if you are coming out this way).

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: mutineer
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 02:47 AM

I think folk music will be living in young people for a long time. It won't be the 'pure' folk music though, eg. Pete Seeger, Burl Ives, etc, as the music will be reinvented. Suffice it to say, to continue on, any genre of music has to be continuously reinvented. My two cents...

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: MudWeasel
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 03:19 AM

Well, I'm 28, and I love the old stuff, the new, stuff, new interpretations of old stuff, old-style new stuff, and everything in between. I think of myself as a "young fogie".

And as I write this, I've got Phil Ochs on the headphones. (My Dad raised me up right.)

-MW

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: GUEST,Eliza C
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 08:07 AM

No-one can expect young people to go digging around in old books and record shops...hmm
x

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 11:54 AM

"Are all folkies over fifty?" No, I haven't got that far yet.

#8-)

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: Shonagh
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 02:03 PM

I'd go diggin about in old books and record shops! Infact i do regulary....and im 17!

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: Firecat
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 02:29 PM

No, they're not! I'm a folkie and I'm 19.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From:
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 02:47 PM

well im not fifty yet, and I have been doing the folk scene for about four or five years now, and im a biker at heart, 10 years ago I wouldnt have imagined that I would be into this sort of thing, but there you go. I think some people just dont like purely folk, some people do. I like a mix of just about all music, and what is considered as folk these days ? is it what we listened too back in the sixties and seventies ? what I like about our club is that there is a big mix of music, not just folk, and we get a few youngsters, who play all sort's from there own tunes, to 60s and 70s etc... the more varied the music the more likely you are to get more people coming in. well whatever takes your fancy ay.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: fiddler
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 02:55 PM

"No-one can expect young people to go digging around in old books and record shops...hmm"

I did most of my best research in C# howse when I was in my early 20s... I never go there now - too busy - work - music - work - music sadly I haven't figured out the music music music yet!!!!

But trying B4 I'm 60 so I'm not too old physically although mentally probably 17!!!

A

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: Fay
Date: 25 Apr 03 - 07:35 AM

Well, it's taken me about an hour to wade through this whole thread and what a journey it's been!

I'm personaly feeling quite positive about the youth scene at the moment, some observations:

term 'Folk music' as a context for playing music socially, there is certainly a strong tune session culture aroung festivals and in cities, events for young people to go and play together are frequently organised by young people and publicised through their means of communication. ie postings on Bigsession, word of mouth, email contacts. Interesting to point out - folk clubs were quite an underground scene in the 60's - do you think things aren't happening, just because you don't see it. As a 'way of life' young people see the value of playing music for the sake of playing music - although there is quite a wave of young superstars on the folk scene it doesn't mean the value of context is lost to us.

I am a member of 'The Witches of Elswick' we are a four part a cappela group, all under 30 and we're bookied at quite a few festivals and clubs, Spiers and Boden (previously mentioned on this thread) are also a 'professional' folk act ie have CDs out, play for money etc... My point is, that though we all ploay on the stage, nothing in a million years would stop us from singing in the pub on a regular basis - for fun like, y'know.

Second point: term 'Traditional music' as a repertoire or body of material is also in a quite healthy state at present IMO. As I've stated on a different thread, I think there is a dearth of young songwriters - there isn't however a lack of singers, so the songs are absolutly being perpetuated, some real old trad stuff, some writen in the seventies, but the proccess is continuing, and people, are very happy to look through the old books and find gems of history.

New songwriters such as Rose Kemp (refered to earlier) are present and involved in the scene. Although her songs are good, I personaly don't feel they are a part of traditional/folk music genra (yet?) The context they are writen for and their form/content feel quite alien to me.

One last point, someone said earlier (sorry can't remember who and it's taken me so long to get here I can't look back now...) that you don't get English music at Weddings, that people would laugh at the idea. Ceilidh bands I know turn offers of work down all the time for weddings. People can't get enough of it - and thats not hardcore folkies - thats everyday young people wanting to celebrate the most important day of their life with everyone enjoying themselves and folk dancing is what they want.

So Thats what came out of my head from reading this thread. Its quite cathartic this discussion forum thing - Mike o'North.. you know you like to pontificate along with the best of us!

Fay x

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: A Wandering Minstrel
Date: 25 Apr 03 - 07:56 AM

In my case yes! and whats strange is that in addition to all the old shanties, mining songs and Childe Ballads in my collection I've got quite a goodly number of songs "collected" from people younger than myself. That has to be a good sign. So more power to the collective elbows of Eliza (if she is who I think she is) and the likes of Kate Rusby, John McCusker, Katherine Tickell and all the other youngsters keeping the music alive.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: Letty
Date: 25 Apr 03 - 08:09 AM

It's not just the young people in the Netherlands who don't know any indigenous folk, it's been going on much longer.
Even my grandfather doesn't know any Dutch folksongs (well, a few songs for children maybe, but that's it). So, if you want to play Dutch folk, you'd have to refer to old songbooks (and the material in there can be very old, going back to the late Middle Ages). And learning music from books is not very appealing.
Luckily, there has been a small revival in Flanders, check out the young group Laïs, for example.
Anyway, the result of this is that when I joined a folk group at the local music school when I was about 16, we mainly played Scandinavian,
Eastern European and a little Irish music. Which I love, but nevertheless: there are many young 'folkies' here, but they just don't have the opportunity to learn Dutch folk from someone.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: MikeofNorthumbria
Date: 25 Apr 03 - 10:51 AM

Hi there, friends,

Thanks to Kevin, Greg, Fay and others for responding to my provocations. And yes, I plead guilty to inconsistency. ("Do I contradict myself? Very well then, I contradict myself! I am large: I contain multitudes." –Walt Whitman )

But friends, you still haven't answered my question. I asked why we folk-enthusiasts spend SO MUCH of our time and energy arguing, when we might be playing, singing or dancing?   Debate and discussion are healthy activities, and long may they flourish. But the folk community seems to devote a disproportionate amount of time to them – often going over the same old familiar questions again and again.    Why?

Is it because we folkies feel obliged to keep on and on explaining and justifying our activities to an indifferent or hostile majority? Or do we, like other embattled minorities, have a powerful urge to keep re-examining our faith, to make sure it's free from all traces of heresy?   Or is it just that folk music attracts gabby, argumentative people? Present company excepted, of course. :)

And as for the original question - whether all (or most, or too many) folkies are over fifty, and if so, why ?… well, think on this. Influential sections of the media keep trying to brainwash us into believing that young = good and old = bad.   So, many people tend to judge any product by the age-profile of its consumers, rather than by its intrinsic merit. Unfortunately, "folk music", like some other brand labels (Marks and Spencer for example) has acquired a fuddy-duddy,"Mums 'n Dads R us" image.

Some of us old folkies keep on (and on … and on) lamenting this sad state of affairs. Others make increasingly desperate attempts to change it, by rebranding themselves and what they do, in the hope of pulling in young recruits for the cause. It seems to me that there is little point in either of these activities. Collective self-pity achieves nothing except to deepen our depression.   And trying to pretend we're something that we're not, in order to attract people who don't like what we are, seems equally pointless.

A small but very welcome number of youngsters have - despite discouragement from their peer group and the yoof media - found their way into the folk environment recently. This is good news, even though there may not be enough of them to replace those of us who already have one foot in the grave. But if folkies as a species are doomed to follow the path of the dinosaur and the dodo,then let's go out singing, not whinging.

Abandon the inquest, and get on with the wake!


Wassail!

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Apr 03 - 11:08 AM

Arguing about this kind of thing here is more interesting than watching the telly, and you can't be out playing music all the time.

Singing and whinging are not incompatable. Some of my favourite songs are examples.

Don't knock the hallowed tradition of folk-whinging!

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: Fay
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 11:02 AM

Mike, I like to argue and question and think on things I can't be in a trancelike state absorbed by music all the time, my brain would get very hyper. And why not talk and think about folk music. This was a big issue for me when I started thinking about doing the degree, and I got lots of people saying it was a bad thing for folk music - like you saying just get on and play it. But if you don't understand it how can you do it well. Spending time sorting your head out about the music and songs you are playing is IMO going to help with your performance. You wouldn't expect to jump into scientific experiments, or start building a modern art sculpture without thinking about it first.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 12:28 PM

Some people work that way - theory into practice:

"But if you don't understand it how can you do it well."

But we don't all. For a lot of people it's the other way round, the theory comes out of the practice:

"You can only begin to understand it when you have learnt how to do it well"

Often enough each sort of person thinks the other way of thinking can't be real, and people must be putting it on. But it really is like that, and there's no point in arguing which is better. Like left-handed and right-handed. Or left-brained and right brained.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: GUEST,rob wright
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 12:04 PM

Well not quite all Anne Taggart of Taggart and Wright got her 15 year old daughter to join them on stage and play flute at their gig last Friday. She also us a regular playing at sessions with her dad Dixie who is a wizz on accordian despite only statrting about two years ago. He started just to allow her to practice her clogging.
Oh she also plays in a local Swing band and does a bit of singing.
This is one to watch out for in a year or two.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: Bernard
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 08:55 PM

'Ere, Folkiedave!

You said 'How many "pop" fans go to "pop" clubs?'

Erm... what's a disco, then, if it isn't a 'pop club'?!!

;^)

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: GUEST,noddy
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 08:29 AM

stupid me. I forgot! I'm not over 50 yet,I still have 15 months to go.I just look as if it was some time back.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: MikeofNorthumbria
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 08:51 AM

Hello everybody … here we go again!

Kevin … I agree that moaning about how dismal things are nowadays is a venerable folk custom which should not be allowed to expire.   Could one of the big festivals find a corporate sponsor willing to fund a prize for the best (or worst?) whinging song in traditional style? And if they did, would you enter?

Fay … our views are not as far apart as you think. In my last posting, I agreed entirely with you that debate and discussion are excellent things in themselves, but suggested that the amount of time and energy we folkies spend arguing with each other – often about relatively minor matters - might be a bit excessive.

When it comes to the major issues, I'm with Mike Yates, who wrote recently:

"Does all this nit-picking really matter? Well, yes it does. Because if our foundations are based on false assumptions, then the whole subsequent body of folksong and folklore studies is liable to come tumbling down around us."

(See "Jumping to Conclusions" , an article on the Musical Traditions website - http://www.mustrad.org.uk/enthuse.htm ).

As the for age thing – to me that seems relatively trivial. Out in the so-called "real world" of commerce, there is a clique of marketing executives and style journalists who find it convenient to keep their customers stacked in tidy demographic packages. So they keep telling us: "Nobody under thirty would be seen dead wearing those shoes … anybody over fourteen who likes that record needs to see a counsellor urgently … only an old-age pensioner would want to drive this car … etc, etc."   But we don't have to believe them.

Folk music still manages (just) to survive outside the overheated atmosphere of consumerist propaganda.   On the whole, people don't take it up because somebody told them that it's what everybody in their age-group must buy into if they want to escape total social exclusion. And once committed to folk, they tend to stay with it, rather than dumping it as soon as the media oracles decide that it's passed its sell-by date. Which is why some of us are still here (and still arguing with each other) forty years after we first encountered the joys of folk music.


Wassail!