Are all folkies over fifty?

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: MikeofNorthumbria
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 08:51 AM

Hello everybody … here we go again!

Kevin … I agree that moaning about how dismal things are nowadays is a venerable folk custom which should not be allowed to expire.   Could one of the big festivals find a corporate sponsor willing to fund a prize for the best (or worst?) whinging song in traditional style? And if they did, would you enter?

Fay … our views are not as far apart as you think. In my last posting, I agreed entirely with you that debate and discussion are excellent things in themselves, but suggested that the amount of time and energy we folkies spend arguing with each other – often about relatively minor matters - might be a bit excessive.

When it comes to the major issues, I'm with Mike Yates, who wrote recently:

"Does all this nit-picking really matter? Well, yes it does. Because if our foundations are based on false assumptions, then the whole subsequent body of folksong and folklore studies is liable to come tumbling down around us."

(See "Jumping to Conclusions" , an article on the Musical Traditions website - http://www.mustrad.org.uk/enthuse.htm ).

As the for age thing – to me that seems relatively trivial. Out in the so-called "real world" of commerce, there is a clique of marketing executives and style journalists who find it convenient to keep their customers stacked in tidy demographic packages. So they keep telling us: "Nobody under thirty would be seen dead wearing those shoes … anybody over fourteen who likes that record needs to see a counsellor urgently … only an old-age pensioner would want to drive this car … etc, etc."   But we don't have to believe them.

Folk music still manages (just) to survive outside the overheated atmosphere of consumerist propaganda.   On the whole, people don't take it up because somebody told them that it's what everybody in their age-group must buy into if they want to escape total social exclusion. And once committed to folk, they tend to stay with it, rather than dumping it as soon as the media oracles decide that it's passed its sell-by date. Which is why some of us are still here (and still arguing with each other) forty years after we first encountered the joys of folk music.


Wassail!

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: GUEST,noddy
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 08:29 AM

stupid me. I forgot! I'm not over 50 yet,I still have 15 months to go.I just look as if it was some time back.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: Bernard
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 08:55 PM

'Ere, Folkiedave!

You said 'How many "pop" fans go to "pop" clubs?'

Erm... what's a disco, then, if it isn't a 'pop club'?!!

;^)

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: GUEST,rob wright
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 12:04 PM

Well not quite all Anne Taggart of Taggart and Wright got her 15 year old daughter to join them on stage and play flute at their gig last Friday. She also us a regular playing at sessions with her dad Dixie who is a wizz on accordian despite only statrting about two years ago. He started just to allow her to practice her clogging.
Oh she also plays in a local Swing band and does a bit of singing.
This is one to watch out for in a year or two.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 12:28 PM

Some people work that way - theory into practice:

"But if you don't understand it how can you do it well."

But we don't all. For a lot of people it's the other way round, the theory comes out of the practice:

"You can only begin to understand it when you have learnt how to do it well"

Often enough each sort of person thinks the other way of thinking can't be real, and people must be putting it on. But it really is like that, and there's no point in arguing which is better. Like left-handed and right-handed. Or left-brained and right brained.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: Fay
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 11:02 AM

Mike, I like to argue and question and think on things I can't be in a trancelike state absorbed by music all the time, my brain would get very hyper. And why not talk and think about folk music. This was a big issue for me when I started thinking about doing the degree, and I got lots of people saying it was a bad thing for folk music - like you saying just get on and play it. But if you don't understand it how can you do it well. Spending time sorting your head out about the music and songs you are playing is IMO going to help with your performance. You wouldn't expect to jump into scientific experiments, or start building a modern art sculpture without thinking about it first.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Apr 03 - 11:08 AM

Arguing about this kind of thing here is more interesting than watching the telly, and you can't be out playing music all the time.

Singing and whinging are not incompatable. Some of my favourite songs are examples.

Don't knock the hallowed tradition of folk-whinging!

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: MikeofNorthumbria
Date: 25 Apr 03 - 10:51 AM

Hi there, friends,

Thanks to Kevin, Greg, Fay and others for responding to my provocations. And yes, I plead guilty to inconsistency. ("Do I contradict myself? Very well then, I contradict myself! I am large: I contain multitudes." –Walt Whitman )

But friends, you still haven't answered my question. I asked why we folk-enthusiasts spend SO MUCH of our time and energy arguing, when we might be playing, singing or dancing?   Debate and discussion are healthy activities, and long may they flourish. But the folk community seems to devote a disproportionate amount of time to them – often going over the same old familiar questions again and again.    Why?

Is it because we folkies feel obliged to keep on and on explaining and justifying our activities to an indifferent or hostile majority? Or do we, like other embattled minorities, have a powerful urge to keep re-examining our faith, to make sure it's free from all traces of heresy?   Or is it just that folk music attracts gabby, argumentative people? Present company excepted, of course. :)

And as for the original question - whether all (or most, or too many) folkies are over fifty, and if so, why ?… well, think on this. Influential sections of the media keep trying to brainwash us into believing that young = good and old = bad.   So, many people tend to judge any product by the age-profile of its consumers, rather than by its intrinsic merit. Unfortunately, "folk music", like some other brand labels (Marks and Spencer for example) has acquired a fuddy-duddy,"Mums 'n Dads R us" image.

Some of us old folkies keep on (and on … and on) lamenting this sad state of affairs. Others make increasingly desperate attempts to change it, by rebranding themselves and what they do, in the hope of pulling in young recruits for the cause. It seems to me that there is little point in either of these activities. Collective self-pity achieves nothing except to deepen our depression.   And trying to pretend we're something that we're not, in order to attract people who don't like what we are, seems equally pointless.

A small but very welcome number of youngsters have - despite discouragement from their peer group and the yoof media - found their way into the folk environment recently. This is good news, even though there may not be enough of them to replace those of us who already have one foot in the grave. But if folkies as a species are doomed to follow the path of the dinosaur and the dodo,then let's go out singing, not whinging.

Abandon the inquest, and get on with the wake!


Wassail!

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: Letty
Date: 25 Apr 03 - 08:09 AM

It's not just the young people in the Netherlands who don't know any indigenous folk, it's been going on much longer.
Even my grandfather doesn't know any Dutch folksongs (well, a few songs for children maybe, but that's it). So, if you want to play Dutch folk, you'd have to refer to old songbooks (and the material in there can be very old, going back to the late Middle Ages). And learning music from books is not very appealing.
Luckily, there has been a small revival in Flanders, check out the young group Laïs, for example.
Anyway, the result of this is that when I joined a folk group at the local music school when I was about 16, we mainly played Scandinavian,
Eastern European and a little Irish music. Which I love, but nevertheless: there are many young 'folkies' here, but they just don't have the opportunity to learn Dutch folk from someone.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: A Wandering Minstrel
Date: 25 Apr 03 - 07:56 AM

In my case yes! and whats strange is that in addition to all the old shanties, mining songs and Childe Ballads in my collection I've got quite a goodly number of songs "collected" from people younger than myself. That has to be a good sign. So more power to the collective elbows of Eliza (if she is who I think she is) and the likes of Kate Rusby, John McCusker, Katherine Tickell and all the other youngsters keeping the music alive.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: Fay
Date: 25 Apr 03 - 07:35 AM

Well, it's taken me about an hour to wade through this whole thread and what a journey it's been!

I'm personaly feeling quite positive about the youth scene at the moment, some observations:

term 'Folk music' as a context for playing music socially, there is certainly a strong tune session culture aroung festivals and in cities, events for young people to go and play together are frequently organised by young people and publicised through their means of communication. ie postings on Bigsession, word of mouth, email contacts. Interesting to point out - folk clubs were quite an underground scene in the 60's - do you think things aren't happening, just because you don't see it. As a 'way of life' young people see the value of playing music for the sake of playing music - although there is quite a wave of young superstars on the folk scene it doesn't mean the value of context is lost to us.

I am a member of 'The Witches of Elswick' we are a four part a cappela group, all under 30 and we're bookied at quite a few festivals and clubs, Spiers and Boden (previously mentioned on this thread) are also a 'professional' folk act ie have CDs out, play for money etc... My point is, that though we all ploay on the stage, nothing in a million years would stop us from singing in the pub on a regular basis - for fun like, y'know.

Second point: term 'Traditional music' as a repertoire or body of material is also in a quite healthy state at present IMO. As I've stated on a different thread, I think there is a dearth of young songwriters - there isn't however a lack of singers, so the songs are absolutly being perpetuated, some real old trad stuff, some writen in the seventies, but the proccess is continuing, and people, are very happy to look through the old books and find gems of history.

New songwriters such as Rose Kemp (refered to earlier) are present and involved in the scene. Although her songs are good, I personaly don't feel they are a part of traditional/folk music genra (yet?) The context they are writen for and their form/content feel quite alien to me.

One last point, someone said earlier (sorry can't remember who and it's taken me so long to get here I can't look back now...) that you don't get English music at Weddings, that people would laugh at the idea. Ceilidh bands I know turn offers of work down all the time for weddings. People can't get enough of it - and thats not hardcore folkies - thats everyday young people wanting to celebrate the most important day of their life with everyone enjoying themselves and folk dancing is what they want.

So Thats what came out of my head from reading this thread. Its quite cathartic this discussion forum thing - Mike o'North.. you know you like to pontificate along with the best of us!

Fay x

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: fiddler
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 02:55 PM

"No-one can expect young people to go digging around in old books and record shops...hmm"

I did most of my best research in C# howse when I was in my early 20s... I never go there now - too busy - work - music - work - music sadly I haven't figured out the music music music yet!!!!

But trying B4 I'm 60 so I'm not too old physically although mentally probably 17!!!

A

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From:
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 02:47 PM

well im not fifty yet, and I have been doing the folk scene for about four or five years now, and im a biker at heart, 10 years ago I wouldnt have imagined that I would be into this sort of thing, but there you go. I think some people just dont like purely folk, some people do. I like a mix of just about all music, and what is considered as folk these days ? is it what we listened too back in the sixties and seventies ? what I like about our club is that there is a big mix of music, not just folk, and we get a few youngsters, who play all sort's from there own tunes, to 60s and 70s etc... the more varied the music the more likely you are to get more people coming in. well whatever takes your fancy ay.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: Firecat
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 02:29 PM

No, they're not! I'm a folkie and I'm 19.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: Shonagh
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 02:03 PM

I'd go diggin about in old books and record shops! Infact i do regulary....and im 17!

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 11:54 AM

"Are all folkies over fifty?" No, I haven't got that far yet.

#8-)

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: GUEST,Eliza C
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 08:07 AM

No-one can expect young people to go digging around in old books and record shops...hmm
x

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: MudWeasel
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 03:19 AM

Well, I'm 28, and I love the old stuff, the new, stuff, new interpretations of old stuff, old-style new stuff, and everything in between. I think of myself as a "young fogie".

And as I write this, I've got Phil Ochs on the headphones. (My Dad raised me up right.)

-MW

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: mutineer
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 02:47 AM

I think folk music will be living in young people for a long time. It won't be the 'pure' folk music though, eg. Pete Seeger, Burl Ives, etc, as the music will be reinvented. Suffice it to say, to continue on, any genre of music has to be continuously reinvented. My two cents...

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: sharyn
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 09:42 PM

GUEST Julia,

I run a traditional ballad-singing group in the San Francisco Bay Area in California, open to those who sing and enjoy listening to traditional material. If you are ever on this coast and want to come, we'd be delighted to have you (just PM me if you are coming out this way).

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 08:37 AM

And also, of course, the old codgers sitting in pubs.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 05:57 AM

But one cannot expect the younger generations to go
digging in old books and used record shops.

Can't see why not. Doing things like that has always seemed to be the way people get the feeling that this is something they have discovered and which they own. With the modification that for "the younger generations", as well as the old books and the record shops, there is the internet for digging around in.

Subject: A young folk novice.
From: GUEST,J. Clifford Dyer
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 12:03 AM

I'm a 25 year old. I've been listening to bluegrass a bit for a couple years now. My tastes have recently started shifting from the Bela Fleck type stuff to the more traditional. And like the trend noted many times above, my interest is in playing more than being in the audience. Granted, I skimmed past most of the discussion, (there are over a hundred posts, and it's late) but in all the mentions of this trend, noone offered an explanation as to why this is the case. For me, the draw is that I'm really tired of having all of my music given to me by record companies. I'm tired of not being able to enjoy an evening with friends without spending money on it. I'd like to be able to sit around and just sing songs. And it seems to me that in order to do that, you need a body of songs that everyone knows, and that are designed to be sung by real people, not performers, elites, and specialists. The structure of folk songs is designed for this: lots of (meaningful) repetition, short verses, simple harmonies (in many cases), and a large focus on the choruses. Rock music is too much designed for performance settings. I'm not entirely sure, but I think this is a common sentiment among the folk-inclined of my generation. For this reason, you don't see many of us at folk clubs. We can be fed our pop music in clubs. Folk scratches a different itch.

curmudgeon:

> These old songs have a lot to say which is why they're still
> being sung. But one cannot expect the youger generations to go
> digging in old books and used record shops. Sing Out and you
> will be heard

You would be surprised what we youngsters will do when we're so inclined. Record shop mining is still alive and well. Except it's not how you would expect it. It's mostly being done by DJs. I know it probably sounds tragic to have your music picked at for five second samples, but there's actually a lot to be said for the DJ culture. It's one of the few "cool" things these days that actually encourages a mentality of discipline and excellence. I don't know your musical tastes, but if you can bear the music, I'd highly recommend you check out a documentary called "Scratch." It's a young art form--probably only been around for twenty years or so, but it is just now starting develop an inkling of a sense of its own historicity, and that is leading to a new understanding of how older music should or could be used.

Just some thoughts.

Cheers,
Cliff

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 08:02 PM

That looks really sad.

Perhaps we should be looking at Festivals rather than clubs. (How many "pop" fans go to "pop" clubs?)

In fact there has been a very comprehensive survey done on folk festivals see........http://www.afouk.org/advocacy.htm

which gives the lie to the stereotype.

Read and inwardly digest. Folk is cool amongst the young..........folk clubs aren't.

Discussion on the why's and wherefore's of this very welcome.

Dave

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: curmudgeon
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 08:01 PM

If no one minds, I'd like to take this thread back a bit. I don't know if there's something in the water or in the beer, but we who converge weekly in coastal New Hampshire are most fortunate in having a growing number of younger musicians and singers coming on board.

The Old Guard, graybeards, baldpates, bellies and all, is mostly well over fifty. Some of us have been friends for nearly forty years and we've been gathering weekly for nearly twenty. We have always welcomed new people, the younger the better. The need for this was brought home abruptly last year when we lost one of the finest singers and philanthrophists any of us have ever known. Now more than ever do we need youger folk to take up the challenge and learn the old songs and tunes.

We have an 18 year old concertina/button accordion/ fiddle/ tenor banjo player who can already play circles around most of us; he also can sing but won't for shyness. Another fiddle player is off at her first year of college so doesn't come round that much. We have a 30 something lad who discovered trad songs 5 years ago and keeps coming back for more. He's signing on to be my apprentice and with a bit of luck, we'll be getting a grant to help things along. There must be at least another dozen or so of 20-30 year olds who are coming regularly.

Make the music accessible and they'll come to it. These old songs have a lot to say which is why they're still being sung. But one cannot expect the youger generations to go digging in old books and used record shops. Sing Out and you will be heard -- Tom

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: harvey andrews
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 07:46 PM

will do.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: cockney
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 07:44 PM

What's love got to do with it?

Hu?

I'm 73 and I've never felt better.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: GUEST,Eliza C
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 07:30 PM

Alright. Get in touch.
x e

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: harvey andrews
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 07:20 PM

Well, I, and others, have a fair sized mailing list and the name Carthy carries some weight. I don't think "celebrity" is what we, or our audience is about. It doesn't have to be big...only started.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: GUEST,Eliza C
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 07:15 PM

Good idea. It would be a nice thing to see. Chances are no-one would take it on as people are unlikely to go and see a load of no-names. Sigh.
x eliza

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: harvey andrews
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 07:06 PM

Ah, I understand Eliza.
"in the line of fire from some very hardline people. She has quite literally had older folkie people approaching her since she was a young teenager asking her in effect "who do you think you are to perform your own songs, why do you think you are better than the tradition?".
I've had it for forty years, but much more so in the last ten due to a certain........but then, let's not go there eh?
I think what we need in the UK is a festival for songwriters young and old to exchange and share our love of the art and craft as many festivals celebrate the tradition. There is room for all but it's not easy to get the creative people together. On the one hand there is the commercial imperative of the big festivals and on the other the bigotry we both abhor. I have recently had the privilege of holding a songwriting week in France, and will be doing so again this year. The enthusiasm of the pupils was like a blood transfusion. I had been so long battling against joylessness and judgmentalism that my own enthusiasm had been finally blunted a little. However, the week rejuvenated me.
I don't know Rose's work but I wish her longevity and an ability to face bigotry with equanimity and a sense of her own worth.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 06:32 PM

I'm not disputing it's possible to buy pricey tickets in plush concert halls. I just prefer to hear the music in different settings, with different audiences.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: GUEST,Eliza C
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 06:25 PM

Harvey,
I did not say that I totally agreed with the people who have that antipathy, but I did say that I don't blame them feeling protective of something so fragile as our traditional music and customs. I had a great deal of suspicion and antipathy aimed at me when I started writing my own stuff. I had a very depressing conversation with Rose Kemp when I was on the Oysterband Big Session tour: basically her choice of material (her own) has put her in the line of fire from some very hardline people. She has quite literally had older folkie people approaching her since she was a young teenager asking her in effect "who do you think you are to perform your own songs, why do you think you are better than the tradition?". I wholly disagree with these bigots and wish they would have had some subtlety in dealing with a young performer; they have put her off the folk scene for life by making her feel so worthless and unwelcome. I think, paradoxically, that they mean well, and as I say, I understand them, but I don't agree with them as a rule.
Just to clarify..
cheers,
eliza x

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: GUEST,Peter from Essex
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 06:15 PM

You should get out more Kevin. £20 for a decent seat at the RFH or Barbican isn't bad. For a folk concert at the QEH between £14 and £18.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: greg stephens
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 06:12 PM

MikeofNorthumbria..against all this controversy,huh? I have a copy of an argumentative magazine article you wrote on this very topic in I think 1965, and I am very tempted to type it out and add it to this thread: except I'm too busy making music.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: GUEST,julia
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 06:11 PM

I'm 20 (almost). Here's my impression: In the US (East Coast) the instrumental traditions have a large following. This includes old time, irish, new england contra and other things I'm forgetting right now. There are also young people that sing unacompanied stuff in the morris crouds and there are shape note singers and people into Balkan stuff. BUT, I still have trouble finding anyone who's comfortable singing ballads or other solo unacompanied stuff. I think this is because nobody is taught to listen to others in a non-performance, informal setting. They all want to sing participatory songs. And it's awkward to be the only one who wants to share a ballad when everyone else does stuff that others can join in on, it becomes more of an egotistical performance than it should have to be. I'm busy lending my music with the hopes that if people listen to unacompanied singing they'll learn some stuff and the situation will change (mind you, not so you old folkies can die happily, but so that when you're not around anymore, I can live happily)
julia

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 05:07 PM

£20 quid for a concert? Blimey, I've never gone to one costing that sort of money...

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: running.hare
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 04:29 PM

At 22 I'm proud to call myself a folkie,

& durring the couple of years I've been on the folk scene I've 'discovered' an ever increasing number of other young people hovering around, it's getting to the point where I almost forget to be surprised when some1 else under 40 turns up at one of my local folk clubs! (& yes the plural was intentional)

I sing (not having the hand-eye co-ordination to deal with an external instrument) & am told I do it well.
My repitoir is dictated by what I like. If a song calls to me I'll go out of my way to learn it - weather it's trad, or is being sung by it's writter (providing they dont mind me nicking their song! & if they do I might just pick it up NE way & keep it to myself ;)) If I realy dont like it I'll quietly pop to the bar, or loo.
I enjoy listening to good music as much as I enjoy making it, as far as I'm concerned the two are indivisable.

Going back to the original point about concerts full of older folkies, praps this is just because being at a social age & with a thirst to learn we'd rather buy a dring or four in a pub while partisipateing in an interactive session (be that a free for all or turns round the room)with a variety of interesting people, than pay twenty odd quid to sit still (proven to be bad for learning) in a darkend audertarium while a light shines on the "star".
Camping at feastivals also calls to our social instincts, & If you can "sing for your supper" as I did @ last yrs Swanage feastival so much the better!

The further our money goes the happier we are!!!

Lizabee
22yrs 4mths

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: Bernard
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 03:28 PM

A healthy debate makes each one of us look at our own opinions and values, and maybe make adjustments where necessary. Otherwise we become insular and start to stagnate... which is precisely why some folk clubs ceased to exist...

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: Marje
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 11:20 AM

To Mike of Northumbria: Look, this is a discussion forum. That's what it's for, talking about things. Last night I played some music but you didn't hear me; all you'll get on a discussion forum is - well, discussion. It doesn't mean we don't like or respect each other or that we don't want to make music, just that there are issues we like to talk about together, and maybe even disagree about from time to time. I don't really know what you expect to find happening here if we're not allowed to have a bit of an argument about the things that matter to us. Go on, join in and provoke us a bit! Or was that what you were doing? :-)

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 11:00 AM

To some extent it's ceremonial. Morris dancers perform by way of ritualised battles. We use arguments instead of sticks, that's all. Of course it can get rather bloody at times, in both cases.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: MikeofNorthumbria
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 09:40 AM

My dear friends,

Why do we music-lovers spend so much time and energy hurling insults, cliches (and, I admit, occasional words of wisdom) at each other?

Why don't we apply these valuable resources to playing and singing the music we love, to whoever may be interested - old, middle-aged or young - in any accessible venue - folk-club, pub-session, festival campsite or front-parlour get-together?

Yes, I know that by adding to this thread I'm sawing off the branch I'm sitting on ... but come on ... haven't we had of these sterile disputes over the past decades? Let's argue less, and sing and play more!

Wassail!

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 05:07 AM

It's when people start bringing their ferrets it really gets dodgy...

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: greg stephens
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 04:59 AM

Re Harvey Andrews having a go at Eliza C and her alleged antipathy to singer-songwriters. No-one (well, hardly anyone) obects to singer-songriters as such, and of course we all value Cyril Tawney songs etc etc. The "anitpathy" only happens when the songwriters become a dominant and defining majority in whatver group is making music. At that point it may become of no interest to those interested primarily in folk. I loved folk clubs when they had mostly tradtional material, enlivened by new songs, flamenco guitairst, ragtime pianists and fiddlers who could play "The Flight of the Bumble-bee" amazingly fast. A Pigeon Fnciers Club can easily and enjoyably accommodate a vistor who brings a budgerigar...but when you get to 70% budgerigars the original Pigeon Fanciers will start to fold their tents and slip away.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: Marje
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 04:33 AM

With regard to trad versus recently-composed songs: Eliza had some very wise thoughts to offer about the value of traditional material. This doesn't mean that nothing recent has any value, but singer-songwriters who are in the music scene are capable of promoting their own songs. The traditional material no longer has a live composer around to help it along, and so it's more vulnerable.

It also seems to me that the folk process has preserved only the best of the tradtional songs. Songs with bad lyrics or a dull tune tend to get dropped from the repertoire, or else people adapt them by putting them to new tunes and pruning our the worst lyrics, perhaps adding new verses or fusing two versions to come up with one, better one.

Now, this doesn't happen so easily with new songs. Some of the songs that are newly-written are wonderful stuff which is quickly assimilated and passed on by lots of singers. But many more are either flawed or complete crap. The songwriter who carries these songs may not be able to distinguish between the good and the bad, and will continue to inflict third-rate material on the audience. And others will hesitate to alter material that is, either formally or implicitly, the intellectual property of the composer. There's a sort of natural selection process that applies itself to folk song, weeding out the weaker stuff, and the newer material hasn't been subjected to this. This doesn't make it all bad, but leaves a higher proportion of rubbish around than soome of us would wish.

When we look at the respected songwriters mentioned by Harvey, to some extent the selection process has already been at work on them. Countless other songwriters of the 60s and 70s have sunk without trace. And it's probably the case that even the successful people have written songs that are now, with good reason, forgotten. Forty years is a long time, even in folk music, and that's why the songs that survive from early in the revival are, on the whole, robust, memorable songs that are worth singing, just like the best of traditional songs.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: Cluin
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 12:09 AM

Not yet. Give me another 10 years.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 10:26 PM

G'day all,

Well, I've just come home from the (Australian) National Folk Festival, over Easter in Canberra, Australian Capital Territory. I got to see lots of my old friends ... some even older than me and I've been active in the "Folk" scene for more than 40 years.

I also got to see some great young players and groups ... of course the peak might be young people like Nancy Kerr and James Fagan (I've known Jame's parents since he was a small ankle-biter!) ... even younger great players. The most noticeable to me, perhaps, were associated with people I've known for many years, but there were also fine young players I've never heard before - playing new and interesting music as well as enjoying fine old songs and music from what is the distance past ... even to me!

The group of friends, with whom I camped at the (A)NFF mostly had some of their children with them ... because they wanted to be there ... enjoying folk songs, traditional music, dances from Australia's past ... and the many traditions that have blended to form Australia.

I think there is an illusion caused because, as we age, we concentrate on our contempories - and don't see where the tradition has gone.

Regards,

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: Melani
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 10:07 PM

I actually know one who is only 19--of course, she's my daughter!

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: GUEST,walkerandandy.com
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 09:01 PM

Kids, guess what! We are a folk band and our age is 110 and there are only TWO members! Here is the fun part, we play a few original things but when we do MTA, Greenback Dollar, JetPlane, or Rustin In The Rain, the younger people eat it up. We always ask if they know the songs and if they say no then we tell them we wrote every
dang one of them!

We are playing all summer and fall in the Smoky Mountains and would love to have anyone who likes us "older" folks music to drop by.
If you can, visit walkerandandy.com and check out DeadBeat Petes, that is where we will be and it has all the info on how to get there.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: graywolf1980
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 08:52 PM

22 here and love old time country/mountain music (listening for over 5 years). Just got the 7 CD set of "Kentucky Mountain Music," and it is worth every penny!!!