Help: Suil A Ruin, correct spelling?

Subject: RE: Help: Suil A Ruin, correct spelling?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 May 07 - 02:18 PM

I think you're distorting what I said, Chris, making issues out of non-issues. I also find it interesting that you chose to so vehemently attack a statement I made in jest five years ago, translating that into a sweeping statement that I have "have convinced [my]self that Irish is a nuisance and ought to be stamped out."

I certainly appreciate the posting of all non-commercial songs here, in any language - we really don't want to become a home for current teenage pop songs, but that's another matter. But Irish-language songs are especially important to a forum like this, and we certainly have no intention to discourage them.

We do discourage (and often remove) diacritical marks in thread titles and user names, because they interfere with search and indexing functions. Using them in the texts of messages doesn't really cause a problem, although they're hard to read with some browser settings. We figure that those who wish to read Irish lyrics, will take the time to learn how to set the character encoding on browsers.

As for accuracy in the spelling of lyrics, I would submit that much of this fussiness with diacritical marks and standardized spelling, is a product of the latter half of the twentieth century. In many ways, it is a welcome addition because it assists in correct pronunciation - but I certainly think that "Shule Aroon" is also a legitimate and authentic spelling in some contexts, and should not be a target for condemnation. And yes, I think it's safe to say that there are Irish-language enthusiasts who tend toward pedantry. Most are very helpful, but some are a pain in the ass.

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About posting anonymously - Since we've had a problem with anonymous posting for years, We now review all messages that are posted without the poster's name in the "from" space - I think you posted three or four yesterday. It's nice that you want to help out, but please put "Chris" (or some consistent name) in the "from" box, and all will be hunky-dory. Our official policy is that we do not allow anonymous posting any more, although we do try to use some judgment in deleting anonymous posts in the music section. My previous post was meant to be a gentle reminder of that policy, nothing more.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Help: Suil A Ruin, correct spelling?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 May 07 - 11:27 AM

Joe,

My posts are never for the purpose of blowing my own trumpet and that 'smack on the wrist' hurts. You seem to imply that I use multiple posts for some nefarious purpose such as to stir things up or for the sake of keeping an argument going. But when I multiple-post to any thread I don't pretend to be different people. My purpose is always to get the truth out there as I see it.

Sounds to me like you have convinced yourself that Irish is a nuisance and ought to be stamped out. Many have been calling for that for a few centuries now and every now and then some brash young academic with a reputation to advance predicts that the language will be dead in 5,10, 20 [take your pick] years. But it still survives.

Fact is Joe, Irish uses one accent only, its for lengthening the vowels. It also sometimes leaves out a letter and indicates this by an apostrophe. But if 'diacritical marks' and 'the need for a standard transliteration' etc, is such a problem why not ban the use of the Irish language from the mudcat? In fact the French and German and Spanish and many other languages use more of that stuff than we Irish do, and so could also be banned?

Those of us who happen to love folk songs in several languages thought [mistakenly it seems] that the mudcat was the one-stop-shop for us. Of course, we can easily turn to websites in other language(s) but the people who usually post to the mudcat asking about Irish or 'Gaelic' songs are people who don't know the language very well so its they who would be disadvantaged by any bans.

People like me are merely trying to help out and if in doing so we advance the cause of our own language among people who have shown good will toward it, thats great.

Chris

Subject: RE: Help: Suil A Ruin, correct spelling?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 May 07 - 04:40 AM

Well, Chris -
I have to say I prefer transliterations without all the diacritical marks. The diacriticals cause all sorts of trouble for our displays and search engines. A standard for Irish transliteration would be most helpful.

As for what I would accept for English-language lyrics, I'd say I'd accept anything that's authentic, and that means I've had to accept a variety of spellings for some words. Those who insist that there is only one spelling for this or that are very often not only pedantic - they're wrong.

-Joe Offer-

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Chris, in my Forum Moderator role, I note that you've posted a number of messages today without using a name in the "from" blank. We don't require posters to register, but we do require them to use a consistent posting name. Anonymous messages like yours risk being deleted - the one above was the only one with a name at the end, and none had a name in the "from" box.

Subject: RE: Help: Suil A Ruin, correct spelling?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 May 07 - 10:44 AM

It might help people like Joe Offer if he accepts that the Irish language, like most languages, changes over long periods of time, as does the spelling and grammar. So the different spellings of 'siúl' [meaning 'walk' or 'move'] are coming from various texts that were published over a long time. It doesn't mean [or it ought not to mean] that you can take your pick of any of them. The fact that people do sometimes choose older spellings only shows the problems faced by all minority languages in trying to be taken seriously by the monolithic English-speaking world.

Anyone who seriously wishes to obtain the correct up to date spelling and grammar for Irish lyrics can buy a dictionary and grammar book easily and relatively cheaply on the net, but mostly it seems that they would prefer to think that 'near enough is good enough' and if you don't like that you're a pedant. Would Joe Offer accept such standards for an important English-language lyric I wonder?

Chris

Subject: RE: Help: Suil A Ruin, correct spelling?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 May 07 - 09:12 AM

I forgot to say that the young spinster surely is afraid to loose her loverboy in the combat in France. PhB

Subject: RE: Help: Suil A Ruin, correct spelling?
From: GUEST,Phons Bakx, Holland
Date: 22 May 07 - 05:15 AM

I have noticed once that it was written like "siúbhail" and than the first "i" was without spot on top. But as we see it is written in many different forms and spellings. I have sung the song also in my own ensemble, about 10 years ago.

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Siúbhail, siúbhail, siúbhail a rúin,
siúbhail go sochair agus siúbhail go ciúin.
Siúbhail go doras agus éaluigh liom,
Is go dté tú mo mhúirnin slán.

This was the written text
given on reply by the Cecil Sharp House
and the word "siúbhail"should be pronounced as (by approach)"showill" - it was explained to me that it meant "to set out with resolteness", for the song was written at the time of the Wild Geese around the year 1691.
(will be followed)

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first my excuse me for mistaking the spelling here above - it must be "resoluteness"
The Irish army was pushed in the year 1691 (and I believe it was by Cromwell) to combat on the continent in France.
All the Irish soldiers/boys were sent to France.
And if one refused to go, the English authorities condemned him by hanging him.
The lyrics of the song "Siúbhail a Rúin" are about the complaining and the pain that a young spinning woman
feels when she is at work at the spinning wheel.
As we know the spinning work and the spinning wheel were in earlier days
strong symbolic attributes for women in general to have a powerful influence on the Fate of Man.
"Dying the petticoat red" is the obsolete symbolism for "swearing fidelity to the one you love".
It is also said to me that the song should be structurely performed as a going around and around spinning wheel.
Thanks, Phons Bakx (Holland)

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Subject: RE: Help: Siúl A Rúin, correct spelling?
From: Felipa
Date: 27 May 03 - 01:39 PM

an important point about the spelling, not only does "súil" mean "eye", it sounds rather like "sual"
The letter 's' in Irish only has an 'sh' sound when it is followed by a 'slender' vowel, that is an 'e' or an 'i'. So while "siú" sounds similar to "shoo", "sú" sounds much like an English speaker would expect it to sound.

(I forgot 'guest' has already mentioned this point)

I think "shule aroon" is okay if you are singing in English, but a lot of people sing the chorus all in Irish.

The Irish alphabet has less letters than English, but makes up for it with the accented vowels and combination spelling rules. Apart from that, it doesn't have letters that aren't in English. In many cases here we now write an 'h', the sound used to be represented by a dot over the preceding consonant. I don't think that the old style lettering was especially Irish or Celtic; it's a variety of "uncial" script.

Subject: RE: Siúl a Rúin
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 27 May 03 - 07:31 AM

I agree with Brían; there is a correct spelling, and a reason why it is correct
(You could, however use an older spelling, siubhal)

In this particular instance, I don't think pronunciation varies much from place to place

Subject: RE: Help: Suil A Ruin, correct spelling?
From:
Date: 26 May 03 - 11:33 PM

Colleen, if you look at the first thread listed above, with the word "Origin" before it, you'll get to the thread #7985, wherein Philippa posted it in Irish Gaelic. I think it was the third message in that thread.

Subject: RE: Help: Suil A Ruin, correct spelling?
From: GUEST,colleen mcconnell
Date: 26 May 03 - 10:31 PM

could anyone tell me a link or something were i could get that song in the original gaelic and not phonetic? that would be nice

Subject: RE: Help: Suil A Ruin, correct spelling?
From: michaelr
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 12:54 AM

Something we rarely see discussed here is the actual Irish alphabet in which the Gaelic is written. I've seen some examples of it in newspapers. I would suppose that where there's a special alphabet there will be an attendant set of rules for spelling and syntax.

Pronunciation is far more likely to vary from place to place, don't you think?

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: Help: Suil A Ruin, correct spelling?
From: Hrothgar
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 12:31 AM

I can't help thinking that there is as much "correct" spelling in Gaelic as there is "correct" pronunciation.

Subject: RE: Help: Suil A Ruin, correct spelling?
From: Barbara
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 12:54 AM

"Who's the traditional American singer who sings it "shool a rack-shack, shool a barbecue"?"
Sarah Grey.
She claims she collected it that way.

Blessings,
Barbara

Subject: RE: Help: Suil A Ruin, correct spelling?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 01:38 AM

Joe Offer, re your point about pedanticism in spelling, consider this: by spelling it 'Suil' ( pronounced 'sool') you mean 'an eye', and by spelling it 'Siuil' ( pronounced 'shool') you get it to mean 'walk' or 'move' or even 'come walking', maybe its not such a bad thing after all to be as accurate as possible?
So the song title means: 'Come, my Love', or it might be translated as 'Walk(with me)My Love'.

Comment?

Subject: RE: Help: Suil A Ruin, correct spelling?
From: michaelr
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 04:59 PM

Thanks, Joe and Brian!

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: Help: Suil A Ruin, correct spelling?
From: Brían
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 03:55 PM

Michaelr,
Using this Irish Language Dictionary I find that Siúl is the correct form being the command form. rún is the spelling normally, but as it is used in the vocative, the letter n becomes slender which changes the sound so an i is inserted, so it becomes a rúin

Brían

Subject: RE: Help: Suil A Ruin, correct spelling?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 03:47 PM

Hi, Michael - I've added links up top to our other threads on the song. As you can see, there is disagreement...
I believe siúil a rúin is the exact spelling, if you can use fadas. I prefer "Shule Aroon," because it aggravates the pedants.
Who's the traditional American singer who sings it "shool a rack-shack, shool a barbecue"?
-Joe Offer-

Subject: Help: Suil A Ruin, correct spelling?
From: michaelr
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 03:39 PM

I'm going to record this song and am wondering if there is a definitive correct spelling of the title.

I've seen suil, siul and siuil; I've seen run, ruin and riuin, with and without various fadas.

The only thing there seems to be agreement on is the A! ...and that it's not shule aroon. :-)

Thanks,
Michael