Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!

Subject: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 03:58 PM

Ok folkies, I've been quiet for long enough on this issue.....but no more! The first song circle I went to was probably in the mid sixties, and I remember the FOOD very clearly. The songs? Well actually 'Kumbayah', and 'Michael Row the Boat ashore' were still reasonably cool then, but the pot luck buffets were great!

Plates of Cold Cuts! Baloney, Meat Macaroni and cheese loaf, salami, and stuff you didn't even TRY to identify, but you knew that it was part of SOME KIND of critter at some time in the distant past.

Salads! MMMMMmmmmgood! Nice head-lettuce with a tomato for variety covered in Kraft French.....yummy!

Bread? Darn right. Usually white sliced, or Freedom bread and occasionally Rye bread for that SERIOUSLY ethnic touch!

Cheese? Of course. Often TWO kinds of cheddar, and maybe some Roquefort. If I was lucky there might even be a few slices of Kraft "agent orange" Chemical squares.

Yes...there WERE products with ONIONS (crossing himself in an agnostic way) in them (chili, spaghetti, and sometimes just sitting there on a plate like REAL foodstuffs) but hey, I was a tolerant guy, even in those days so I never complained.

***************************************************************

Then something insidious started happening.

Over the years people started bringing some very strange "food beliefs" into the song circles. Perhaps it was one person who surrepticiously dropped a platter of "tofu-brownies" onto the table without being chastized, and then immediately followed up with some Baba Ganoush or tabouli the next week, knowing that if people couldn't pronounce something they'd probably just "shut up and eat it'!

Before you knew it the buffet tables were absolutely FULL of colourful articles masquerading as 'real' food! Undressed unadulterated Broccoli and cauliflower, Ratatouille (without a real rat or even a mouse) hummus, chick peas, taramasalata, and even pitas and tacos in place of some good "Wonderbread"!

So not only did I have to put up with some slightly questionable singing, but when "Waltzing With bears" came up, and I beat a hasty retreat to the food, I had ONION DIP staring me right in the face! Today's Chili? Faggedaboudit! It's never even SEEN a piece 'o steer.
*********************************************************
The only thing that hasn't changed since 1966 is that Green Jello with 'stuff' in it. At least it was/is onion free.

Be wary folks. Be verrrrry wary!

Rick

P.S. difficult vegetable spellings by Heather F.

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 04:26 PM

Yeah, it's a new world out there, Rick. I used to be apologetic about my smoking (outside and away from others) at song circles. Finally, I felt so lonesome I quit smoking.
Now, I have apologize for eating meat. I remember one singing potluck where I worked hard to make a big pot of chili con carne. Turned out mine was the only meat dish on the table, and I was the only one who ate it. sowadays, I grab a burger before I go to sing.
I used to take a six-pack of beer to song circles, but lately people have been making comments about that, too.
What are they going to look down on next, sex?
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: Dave Swan
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 04:44 PM

Well, we haven't had the sex issue come up at one of our sing-arounds, but there is always plenty of beer and the food offered is omnivorous. So come on over.


As for sex, I guess as long as you don't scare the animals.....

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: Jeri
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 04:45 PM

What's sex?

New England is very conservative. Even though folks may be liberal politically, there's still an awful lot of conservative-style meat at folkie parties. Sausage casserole, pate (sausage sans casing), beans with sausage, chili with big chunks of meat (possibly in the form of sausage), grilled hot dogs or other type of sausage and pickled herring (HA - try to make THAT into a sausage!).

I have never once seen Jello with stuff in it at a party around here. It's quite likely the last guy who tried that pooted out of Mr. Dunderbeck's machine directly into the rice and SAUSAGE.

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: Allan C.
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 04:46 PM

There is a commercial on TV these days that pokes fun at the infamous "green bean casserole" and rightly so, in my view. It would appear that what Rick describes has also evolved at church socials and such. Fortunately, though, backyard gatherings I have attended, (some of them musical,) have nearly always included the roasting of some manner of beast or fowl.

Being the omnivoire that I am, I have nothing against vegetarianism; but when I encounter a table that contains nothing else I think of a favorite line from the film, "Crocodile Dundee" (if I remember it correctly) "Oh, you can eat it, I guess; but I wouldn't want to have to live off of it."

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 04:47 PM

Not just song circles but all get-togethers.
When I came to Canada, already there were signs of change in the States, but NOT IN CANADA! It was heaven!
The table was laden with beef, ham, turkey, cold cuts, smoked salmon, real cheddar and all the good stuff, with plenty of Canadian rye (or rum in the Maritimes) to wash it down. Everyone loaded their plates to overflowing, polished that off and went back for seconds (and a third trip for the desserts). Real food for real people.

Now, as you say, sadly there are the rabbit foods (or would even Brer Rabbit wonder about them) with all sorts of peculiar yuck in which to immerse these crudities (spelling intentional), "finger" foods of uncertain origin, and (horrors!) the occasional glass of wine, often not suited even for faux foreign cookery- or some perfumed designer coffee or tea. One is lucky to find "goldfish" and wheat crackers to subsist on, let alone real bread.
No more going home stuffed to repletion, but having to stop at MacDonald's to fend off starvation.

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: Leadfingers
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 04:48 PM

But apart from the Food,The Booze,and The Songs,the Song Circles are
exactly the same.But everybody is a lot older now.

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 04:51 PM

Baaah... the best thing about vegitarians is that when the cow does finally run out, we'll have THEIR grain fed butts on our plates!

I'm a carnivore, cause that's how my body's supposed to be... I have these teeth in the courners of my mouth specifically designed for ripping and tearing meat... And I LOVE to use 'em!

Maybe it's a Toronto thing Rick?

:-)

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: Midchuck
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 04:52 PM

I know it's a tired line, but it's useful:

If someone gets preachy with me about my choice in foodstuffs, I tell them:

"Vegetables aren't food, vegetables are what food eats!"

They often are so disgusted with me that they go away - as I'd hoped.

Peter.

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 05:56 PM

I was SORT OF joking with the whole thing. I wouldn't want people to think I was one of those "I'm just a meat and potatos kinda guy" neanderthals. I mean I love foreign movies, classical music, Opera, and quite a few VERRRY unpopular things.....but I WILL NOT EAT BROCCOLI OR CAULIFLOWER!

or onions
or spinach
or turnips
or cabbage
or Brussels Sprouts
or bok choy
or parsnips

but I'll follow you anywhere if you wave a Lobster at me.

By the way "Folky food" may not do much for me these days, but oh boy, those commercial gigs where you get CONVENTION FOOD...yummmm!

Rick

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 06:14 PM

You pee-oh-pull are sick!

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: NicoleC
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 06:25 PM

Wow, for a minute, Rick, I thought I'd found someone with the same disfunctional onion allergy as myself.

But bring on the broccoli! And the spinach!

(I'm with you on the turnips and cauliflower. It's not the taste so much as it is the nasty smell.)

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 07:22 PM

Who can deny the correlation between the decline of folk singing and the rise of vegetarianism?
Here's To a Bacon Butty- in fact to the whole butt!

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 07:42 PM

I always figure if some culture in the world (not including diviant 'sub-cultures' that aren't about culture, just about self-gratification) calls it food, I'll try it...

And there are very few things I've found that I flat out won't eat...

Liver... like the taste, but the texture is like something that'd gag a cat... I can chew it for hours and just can't bring myself to swallow it...

Onions... but that's an allergy... I LOVE onion, and miss them terribly... fortunatly, I still have green onions and shalots (Which are close enough in my book)

Chocolate... probably the single most over rated flavour in the whole pallet in my book... I could very easily go my whole life and never eat it again, and just not care...

Eggplant tastes like eggplant, but meat tastes like murder, and murder tastes pretty f*cking good!

Meat and fire... the taste of evolution...

:-)

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: Deckman
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 07:43 PM

Rick ... VERY FUNNY and also very appropriate! I, like you, have noticed many changes within the folk scene over the years. And food styles is one that I had not thaought about, but I'm sure glad you did. I'm sure my comments will bring out other contributions from long time friends.

One of the first changes I noticed was the frowning upon anything containing alcohol. Whereas in the 50's and 60's, we always had a gallon of cheap red wine on the floor, by the 80's, that was becoming frowned upon. Good grief, how could we possibly sing all these stupid drinking songs without something to drink!

Then came the 'healthy food' push. No more salty pretzels and beer, rich cheeses, steak strips, etc.

As this health food slant became stronger, I also noticed an increasing regection of 'new music.' I was almost thrown out of the Seattle Song Circle group when I dared to sing a John Denver song once. Oh Well! I happened to enjoy his music very much and I still do.

What is my point ... I think that there are few folks more snobby than 'traditional folksingers.' And I LOVE traditional folkmusic. But I hate the clannishness, snobbishness (is that a word), and outright judgmentalism I often find in these circles.

Just my thoughts, and warm wishes to all! CHEERS, Bob(deckman)Nelson

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 07:54 PM

Same experience as Rick.

Learned that it's unwise to assume that there will be anything edible at a "pot luck."

So these days I assume that the only offering I can stomach will be mine. I fix something I will like and can make a meal on. Sometimes I am pleasantly surprised by the offerings of others, but I don't count on it.

One odd thing about pot lucks these days, though. I can rely on others to provide something potable. There will probably be a couple of designer beers in the cooler that I've never heard of and one of them will probably be pretty good.

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 08:04 PM

Bob, I would never have thrown you out of the Seattle Song Circle for singing a John Denver song. Unless it was "Sunshine on My Shoulder", of course.

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: Deckman
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 08:43 PM

Hi Mark ... nice to hear from you! Bob

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: Peg
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 09:01 PM

My friend who died of cancer recently (at age 33) was a carnivore to the end and his favorite expression when anyone commented on how he never ate vegetables, was "Vegetables are what food eats!"

I wonder if a healthier diet on his part might have let him live longer...I think eating meat is okay for most humans but one does need to eat some fruits and vegetables to stay healthy! All about balance, I guess.

He smoked, too.

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: Sorcha
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 09:20 PM

Well, folkies, come on out to my place. Always dead animals on my table, but broccoli and cauliflower too. We even eat Bambi......

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 09:25 PM

Lobsters? I'm scared of Lobsters. If I ate one I'd be frighened the Great Red Lobster would come calling one night and tear down the door to get me. And serve me right.

Black Pudding is the stuff for a session. Now, I wonder if anyone has ever worked out a recipe for a vegetarian Black Pudding...

If they could only work out a way of making vegetarian food that actually tasted like meat, I'd be on it like a shot. It's not that I like the idea of eating other animals, I just like the way they taste.

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: Padre
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 09:38 PM

Bill Day is always a good guy to have at a sing, because he can be counted on for good songs, and good beer!! Kitfo rules!!!!

Padre

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: Ely
Date: 20 Apr 03 - 12:51 AM

It's all about meat here. Barbecue, chili, slumgullion, hash. And dairy--if you say you're bringing a side dish, a salad doesn't count. It has to be corn pudding or scalloped potatoes or some sort of baked noodles-and-cheese. We've got some people who can really cook; I tend to be a veggie hound but even I can take a break from that now and then.

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 Apr 03 - 03:09 AM

Boca burgers, Kevin...and Morning Star fake bacon...delicious and not a bit of meat in either.:-)

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: Gypsy
Date: 20 Apr 03 - 10:28 PM

Gee, what i put on the table for our jam sessions depends entirely on the budget...........i eat meat, but can't afford to serve it all the time. Lots of beans and rice at this house for monetary reasons, and save the expensive stuff for special occasions. Now, of course, you wanna BRING me that lobster, i'll cook it! i'll even share it!

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 20 Apr 03 - 10:43 PM

Burger tonight and bacon last night.
Made burgers with extra lean ground, chopped onion, oregano, seasoning- and served with old aged cheddar, sliced fresh tomatoes, sliced pickle, sliced onions and choice of sauces in an ample kaiser bun. Lots of good canteloupe coming in, so had that on the side.
Last night we had hot toasted, buttered Dutch bread sandwiches with crisp bacon, aged cheddar and tomato slices. A tad greasy on the fingers but delicious.
Tomorrow a small aged steak and fresh ears of corn, well-buttered, with fresh tomatoes. Maybe a mango. Lovely!

Now what was the subject of this thread?

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 12:34 AM

I've been vegitarian for many long years
And I've spent not a sent on red meat or pigs ears
But now I'm returning with sausage in store
And I never shall be vegitarian no more...

And it's no nay never, no nay never no more
Shall I be vegitarian, no never... no more

I went to a juice bar I used to frequent,
And I told the landlady me money was spent
I asked her for credit, the answer was nay
Such a custom as yours I can get any day...

Then out of me pocket I drew sausages fine.
And the landlady's eyes opened wider than mine
Saying "I have wheat grass, and carrot and cress"
If you eat that in here, sure, the goddes won't bless...

I'll go home to my parents, and confess what I've done
And we'll dine on fresh lobster, roast beef till there's none
All slathered with gravy, in joyous rapport
No I never shall be vegitarian no more...

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: alanabit
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 04:14 AM

I love your song Thomas. I do a song poking fun at veggies myself - my Parrott Song. I have been vegetarian since 1987 when I was recovering from hepatitis B. It stopped me waking up in pain at night and I never had another relapse. I don't like to get too moralistic about being veggie - especially as sheer cowardice and self interest were my motives for stopping meat. I was probably a latent vegetarian before, but I always used to say, "Eating animals is wrong - but they taste nice!"
When I was travelling a lot, it was not always easy to get food. I Prague, for instance, even lentil salad had dead pig in it. (My theory is that after the fall of the Communist dictatorship, they had all these dead pigs lying around which they didn't know what to do with....) Personally, I am open to new foods (without animals). However, I like it when guests come to my house and do not even notice that they are eating veggie food. Fear not the veggie!

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 10:43 AM

Now chilluns, let uncle Rick who's been around the block many times, tell you about some other FREE food.

"COMMIE" Food (remember I am one of those 'Soviet Canuckistan, Castro Luvin', Dubya dissin' Toque wearin', hosers)

I used to get invited to sing for the "Socialist Action" folks. They're Trotskyites (I'm not sure what that means...perhaps all their members go to Mexico and kill themselves)

By the way...I know I'm joshin', but these are good people....they're all lookin' for a better world, just like you and I are.

Their typical buffet included: CHEEZITS, POTATO CHIPS, BUDGET DIET COLA and once a year, ice cold Indian food (because they wouldn't spring for a damn hot-plate!

***************************************************************

"YACHT CLUB FOOD" Not bad actually. These folks have money....but they're CHEAP! Lotsa sandwiches, pickles, grapes, olives, cheese, and OK desserts. The problem is they simply NEVER wanna listen to music, 'cuz they rarely all get together, so they just talk......loudly. Much beer, but I rarely drink.....so I take a bunch home!

******************************************************************

"ETHNIC WEDDINGS" (Italian, Jewish, Polish) Yah man! Now I don't get hired as a "solo" for these things but I used to be called up for bands 'cause I could fake a lotta styles if neccessary.

Amazing food....BUT....since I wasn't the leader, I had to put up with some bloody band leaders who wouldn't avail themselves (and us) of the wonderful food! I've asked many times about "food and the band" and never ever was turned down, but some band leaders thought it was unprofessional.

HEY! The only reason I ever DID commercial work was for the food!

Cheers

Rick

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 01:15 PM

Thomas the Rhymer. Tried your song to "On Top of Old Smoky." No, please don't shoot!

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 02:51 PM

Q! It kinda works!

FYI... Wild Rover... and yes, it's not my first parody (sheepishly remembering an hauty air or two, projected by yours truly... about the 'less than awesome' status of parodies *lg*) ttr

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: Beccy
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 03:45 PM

Finally, a subject I can sink my teeth into (pardon me...)

I have a sister and her husband who's a vegetarian (heck- they even feed their dog vegetarian dog food and have hypers if my tongs that i turned my steak with touch their portobellos on the grill, ergh) and without sounding too snotty, I'm the better musician by far. My husband, a man who when asked what he wants for dinner answers "I don't care, so long as there's a bunch of meat in it..." is an infinitely better musician than her husband. My theory is that they're weak from hunger. :-) I mean really, how many meals can consist entirely of bean and bean/veggie combos???

But seriously, I love vegetables. My kids love vegetables, my husband loves vegetables. But it just doesn't seem like a complete meal without meat. I was a vegetarian for 7 years. I feel so much better when I eat some meat than when I don't. Maybe it's my metabolism.

I am tired of being told, "I don't eat meat" (read with a snotty tone)"I don't believe in eating meat." How about just, "I don't like meat." That is less of an implication of "Oh you MONSTER. How COULD you possibly lower yourself to eat MEAT? Don't you KNOW that was living and breathing once?" (Ummmm, yeah- and I hope it was recently, 'cause unless I'm dry aging a roast in my fridge- I don't want old meat.)

I'll stop now.

Beccy

BTW, does anyone have more fun quotes about vegetarianism? My Dad and I collect them and *boy howdy* ya'll gave me some to pass along.

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: Burke
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 05:05 PM

This is a topic near & dear to many Sacred Harp singers who dare to cross the Mason Dixon line (in either direction) to sing.

"All day singing with dinner on the ground" in Alabama or Georgia can often mean "Huge spread of high fat food with all day singing." People are famous for thier fried chicken liver, bar-b-que beef, peach cobbler or red velvet cake. There are usually huge platters of ham & cooked vegetables frequently are cooked with a little pork fat for seasoning. Frequently found as well is the visting northerner with 3 things on their plate, carefully inspecting the dishes, in hopes of finding something that is meat free, and being urged by a generous but now slightly insulted cook to try to dressing, etc. The dessert table is a really safe bet.

Attending one of these events to the north, especially in Vermont, the reverse is often the case. I recall one event that was not really terrible large with at 3-4 spicy peanut noodle dishes. One was mine. Another time one where hardly any meat was to be found. Southerners who came to some of the first northern singings 10-15 years ago say they went home telling their friends all they had was macaroni & cheese. They didn't even know to call it pasta salad. Organizers of events well attended by southern guests have learned that at least a few have to bring the meat dishes. There are also often segregated serving tables-meat here--meatless there or small ingredient lists next to the bowls.

In reality, though, discussions of different food ways can be a good ice breaker. That is how I've heard about the reactions to the food. It's also wonderful to join together in the singing square; ominvores, carnivores & vegitarians lifting our voices in joyous song. If you can sing, no one cares what you eat.

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 10:37 PM

Hey Rick I remember making you & Heather some devilled eggs you said tasted just like your moms.

Devilled eggs use to be such a hit in the old days and they are so easy to make too. Now that you can buy free range, grain fed, no herbicide/pesticide organic eggs, I figure thats a good compromise for the nonviolent potluck table.

Warning: If you eat too many devilled eggs, go easy on the beer.

Banjo Bonnie

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: Sooz
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 08:54 AM

Becky - I don't need meat. OK?

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: Beccy
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 09:07 AM

Works for me, Sooz... it's just the haughty "I don't EAT meat" that irks me.

Beccy

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: GUEST,maire-aine, not at home
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 09:15 AM

Rick, I was right there with you until I got to the onion part. I love onions-- can't cook without them. But when I have get-togethers, I serve meat. Last time it was a big ol' pot of Sloppy Joes; I'll post the recipe in the cookbook thread. But I do try to include something for people who don't eat meat. I got a friend to make macaroni & cheese. I can accommodate vegitarians but not vegans.

TtR, I love the song. Best treatment of Wild Rover that I've heard in years.

Clinton, try chives if you can tolerate them. You can grow your own; they don't take up much space. They're the first thing that comes up in my garden, and they're ready to start eating now.

Maryanne

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: GUEST,Tulip
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 11:55 AM

This whole discussion makes me very sad. Far too many people making jokes about eating healthy, and ridiculing those who do. I have been a Meta-Vegan for a number of years and I can truthfully say that my life is so much better for it.

I notice that one Mudcat member (Rick Felding) seems to find that even *naming* vegetables is hilarious. What a strange sense of humor.

When the God-pod has given us such bounty, why not simply accept it? Mr. Felding, if you'd like to know more about our group, P.H.A.R.D. I'd be happy to send you some literature.

You'd be amazed at how good a cauliflower tastes, once you've talked (and most important....LISTENED) to it.

In health

Tulip Nussbaum

P.H.A.R.D. (people having a relationship with dinner)

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: MMario
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 11:58 AM

sorry tulip - much easier for me to listen to Bambi - or Ferdinand the Bull; or even Tommy trout then to hear that cauliflower. But that's okay - I like and eat vegetables anyway. I believe in consuming across the biological kingdoms.

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: Beccy
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 01:37 PM

Is it just me or did anyone else notice that the acronym for PHARD is phonetically very close to what you do if you eat only vegetables? Heck- they even made a product for it... the sainted BEANO.

Beccy

P.S. God-pod??????!!!!!????? Huh?

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 02:23 PM

Hi Tulip, I've vaguely heard of your group, but try and get my name right. It's Fiel, not Fel....ding, very wasp I'm afraid, although I DO love pastrami...Oops! That's verbotten for you folks isn't it?

I've known quite a few folks of my (the hippie) generation, with names that celebrate the Earth.

Is "Tulip" your real name?

Rick

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 02:30 PM

Two lips is all it takes!

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: harvey andrews
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 02:31 PM

Well Rick, my dear friend, we agree on so much there has to be something different about us!
This is going on my next cd!!!
Sorry carnivours, but this is a discussion forum. (LOL)


                              
TIMES ARE HARD, TIMES ARE TOUGH
                                          
IT'S TIME FOR CHANGE, WE'VE HAD ENOUGH

LET ME SAY, THERE'S A WAY, TO IMPROVE YOUR EVERY DAY

IT'S A SIMPLE RECIPE, SUITS THE WAY I LIKE TO BE
   
YOU KNOW LIFE CAN BE SO SWEET, WHEN YOU DON'T EAT MEAT.

                                                                                                      
PLEASE DON'T CUT THAT THROAT FOR ME, I'LL EAT MUSHROOM FRICASEE
                        
WHEAT AND CORN, YOU AIN'T BORN,
            
TILL YOU'VE TRIED SOME HOME FRIED QUORN
                                                               
STEAMED OR STUFFED, CREAMED OR PUFFED
                                       
GLAZED OR BRAISED, AIN'T THAT ENOUGH

VEG CAN BE A TREAT…WHEN YOU DON'T EAT MEAT.

MR BUTCHER, SPARE THAT LAMB, PLEASE DON'T TURN THAT PIG TO HAM

WE CAN SOLVE ALL FARMING'S ILLS, IF WE STICK TO PASTA QUILLS

THERE'S NO NEED FOR BLOOD AND MURDER,
J
UST CHOMP ON THIS NICE BEAN BURGER
         
AND HERE'S A BABY BEET…DON'T EAT MEAT.


BOIL THAT RICE, OH THAT'S NICE, PANCAKES YOU COULD JUST EAT TWICE

AN AUBERGINE, A BUTTER BEAN, SOMETHING GREEN, I FEEL SO CLEAN
   
MANGOES, APPLES, MELONS, LIMES, ADD THE GOOD FRUIT OF THE VINES

IT'S ALL GREAT TO EAT…..BIN THE MEAT



LET'S LET LAMBS BAA AND BLEAT, DON'T MINCE UP THAT UDDER TEAT

COWS AND CALVES DON'T EAT MEAT, SO WHY DO WE, LET ME REPEAT
   
THERE'S A SIMPLE REMEDY, SO WHY DON'T YOU JOIN WITH ME
      
AND LIFE COULD BE SO NEAT….DON'T EAT MEAT.

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: Wolfgang
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 02:33 PM

Great parody, Tulip, I loved it.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 02:33 PM

More and more, pasta (furrin word for emasculated grain) is recognized as a cause of weight gain. Stick to proteins, vegetables and fruit.

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: MMario
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 02:35 PM

But I can enjoy all those treats - PLUS juicy rib roast, lobster, clams, turkey, quail, pork, etc. etc. etc. why limit?

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 03:00 PM

My, my, sex at your song sessions? [see beginning of this thread]

Our session consists of voracious omnivores who mostly drink (whispers) alcohol (heavens!).

Wine and beer we'll drink without fear
We'll drink a success to the innocent hare

But we only SING about sex at the sessions . . .

Linn, wishing someone would chase HER with a lobster

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: GUEST,Tulip
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 07:02 PM

I'm very sorry to get your name wrong Rick although I suspect if you go back a few generations you'll see I'm right.

P.H.A.R.D. is still a very small group. There is no internet presence, and not even an office yet.

No my given name is NOT Tulip, in fact (if it makes any difference) it was Sparrow.

T.N.

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 11:36 PM

Now Wolfgang... The tulips on my porch didn't post as a guest... And I was mixing cement while tulip was posting.

try again... and remember, I've got it all on tape! *BG*
ttr

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 01:23 AM

Harvey Andrews! At last some sanity!! Thanks for posting that wonderful song!!

Tulip/Sparrow...didn't you compete in the 1987 Great Wyoming Vegetarian Rodeo? I could swear I remember your name in the Roping Romping Rutabagas competition? If I remember right, you caught it, threw it down and hog-tied in the shortest time in GWVR history, something like a lightning seven seconds? Talk about smooth!

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: Cluin
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 02:56 AM

Well, I'm a card-carrying carnivore too, but I like most vegetarian dishes. When in Rome...

The trouble is, with all those veggies on the plate, the song circle/jam session soon becomes a fart-fest. Better slip the Beano into the guitar case next time.

(p.s. if they frown on my bringing beer, I don't care IF the door hits my ass on the way out)

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 03:21 AM

I love good vegitarian food! And yes, the healthy glow that halos out of vegi-eyes can be so invigorating... and those 'french intensive' greens can vitalize even the reddest neck...

However, I heard it said once, by a very congenial carnivore, That "vegitarians can be the meanest people"... Hmmmmm. Hitler was a vegitarian...

Anyway, it's all water under the bridge, really... In my profession, stamina is of the utmost importance, and meat really does help me. Salad keeps me sharp. Imagination makes it all worth while! ttr

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: Sooz
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 04:12 AM

Sorry to get technical here but this point needs making I think.
We can store carbohydrates and fats in our bodies from one day (or year) to the next. Protein is different. It cannot be stored, so any we eat over and above our daily requirement is actually a problem for our body. The liver converts the excess amino acids to urea which is excreted by the kidneys. To put it briefly, most of the steak goes down the toilet!

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: Jeri
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 07:05 AM

Meat is usually silent and I'm not sure why. Maybe that pork is giving me the cold shoulder. In any case, welcome, Sparrow/Tulip.

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: alanabit
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 08:14 AM

Was Hitler a vegetarian? I read that he took a vegetarian diet from time to time to alleviate health problems. I have heard claims and counter claims about this one. I wonder who knows?
I don't want to get too precious about this. Hitler was also short and spoke German badly (true of myself too). Even if he does turn out to have ben a veggie, I like to think there are differences between us as well as similarities!

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: JudeL
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 08:54 AM

As far as I'm concerned the limits on individual choice should be where it stops being something that is their choice and it removes choice from others. If someone chooses not to eat certain types of food it seems to me that is up to them provided they don't try to impose their choices on others.

And now back to the music, this seemed apt:

THE POTATO SONG   by Brian Bedford
How could you do it , it's heartless it's cruel,
It's murder, coldblooded ,it's gross.
To slay a poor vegetable just for your stew,
Or to serve with some cheese sauce on toast.
Have you no decency. Have you no shame.
Have you no conscience you cad.
To rip that poor vegetable out of the earth,
Away from it's poor mum and dad.

Chorus
Oh no don't slay that potato, let us be merciful please.
Don't boil it or fry it, or even freeze dry it,
Don't dice it or flake it, for gods sake don't bake it,
Don't shed the poor blood of that poor helpless spud,
It's the worst kind of thing you can do.
Oh no don't slay that potato , what never done nothing to you.

Why not try picking on something your size,
Instead of some carrot or bean,
The peas are all trembling there in their pods,
Just because you're so vicious and mean,
How would you like to be grabbed by your hair,
and be ruthlessly yanked from your bed,
and have done to you god knows what horrible things,
to be eaten with full fibre bread.
Chorus

It's no bed of roses this vegetable life,
you're basically stuck in the mud.
You don't get around much, you don't see the sights,
If you're carrot or celery or spud.
You're helpless when somebody's flea bitten dog,
Takes a notion to stop for relief.
Then somebody picks you, and cleans you, and eats you,
And causes you nothing but grief
Chorus

There ought to be some way of saving our skins.
They ought to be passing the law,
Just show any body a cute little lamb,
and they all stand around and go ... Awww
Well potatoes are ugly, potatoes are plain,
We're wrinkly and bumpy to boot.
But give me a break, you mean to say,
You eat us because we're not cute.
Chorus

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: Sooz
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 09:10 AM

Good song, Jude, but actually by Tom Paxton! Brian has written many good songs but he nicked that one. Long live the folk tradition.

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: JudeL
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 09:32 AM

Oh whoops, sorry. Was misled by having heard it on Artisan's CD and most of the songs they sing tend to be by Brian Bedford

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: GUEST,tulip
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 10:13 AM

Oh no, the old "Hitler was a vegitarian" arguement! I think it's been proven many times that Hitler was a "Vegitable-ist" which is of course something quite different. Other "Vegitable-ists" throughout history (Caligula, King Caracticus, Margaret Thatcher, and Annie Sprinkle) have certainly had wide-ranging personalities.

But back to meta-veganism. It's a simple religion (yes, I guess I COULD call it a religion) where we worship our vegetables before partaking of them. Yesterday I found an AMAZING cauliflower that some restaurant was throwing out. I spoke to it for a few minutes...listened to it intently, then tossed it in the boiling water. As it submerged, I swear I could hear it say "Thank you Tulip". It was delicious. Oh, and last night I had an amazingly satisfying relationship with a cucumber.

Harvey Andrews? Are you the Harvey Andrews that wrote the "vegitarian anthem": "If it Breathes, spit it out!".

Tulip Nussbaum

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: Beccy
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 10:19 AM

What's the tune to the Potato Song? I did a quick search but didn't find anything. I'd like a MIDI (but I won't hold my breath) but I'd settle for hearing it on a site or the guitar chords if anyone's in possession of them... Thanks if you do and are willing to share!!!

Beccy

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: JudeL
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 10:28 AM

It's listed as "Don't slay that potato" on Artisan's "Rocking at the End of Time" CD. I don't know if they have a soundclip on their website. Other than that if you pick a time and we can find an empty room I can sing you a few bars over paltalk.

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: Wolfgang
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 10:29 AM

Hitler's vegetarianism is a myth, a part of the public image carefully crafted by Goebbels of Hitler as an asket only living and working for the sake of his country. As alanabit says, he may have been dieting at times but nothing more. (According to biographies, Hitler's public image as not drinking, not womanising is equally wrong. The nonsmoking bit, however, seems to be correct)

One source of that myth in the English speaking world is an article from the New York Times on May, 30th, 1937:

(my retranslation): It is well known that Hitler is vegetarian, doesn't drink and smoke. His meals therefore mainly consist of soups, eggs, vegetables, and mineral water, occasionally completed by (white) sausages (a Munich specialty which is everything but vegetarian), caviar, and a slice of ham.

A kind of liberal use of the word vegetarian, I'd say.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: Midchuck
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 10:32 AM

What's the tune to the Potato Song? I did a quick search but didn't find anything

Tom Paxton recorded it, on the One Million Lawyers album, IIRC, under the title, "Don't Slay That Potato." My wife's been learning it.

We've bought this Fostex 16-track hard disk recorder with eight million controls, that we're trying to learn to use. If I don't give up and hit it with a sledge hammer, maybe we can get the song on a CD and send to you if you can't find it elsewhere first. It won't be right away.

P.

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: MMario
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 10:40 AM

suppossed to be an mp3 here

url=http://pesenki.ru/index.php?p=i2&band=paxtontom

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 10:46 AM

Ms. Tulip/Sparrow...was it satisfying for the cucumber, too?

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: JudeL
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 10:48 AM

Wow mario that is an amazing site, thank-you I've bookmarked it for future use

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: Pied Piper
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 11:58 AM

Hi Sooz.

Your point about protien storage is correct, but vegetables also contain protien and an excess of vegitable derived protien would be excreted after breackdown into ammino-acids in just the same way as animal.
Meat has the advantage over vegitables in that it contains all the essential ammino-acids in one hit, to get the full range from vegetable sources you have to mix and match. Meat is also rich in fat a vital imput to an energetic and relativly short intestined species such as ours.The short intestine is a result of a bigger brain and both processes involved us in adopting a high quality diet containing 30% of callories as fat. This diet would have been imposible on vegetables alone in Africa at the time of becoming omnivours.Meat eating also led to important technological developements that fead back into increased brain size.
As to the morality of eating meat, wether you like it or not Life eats Life, and without the preditor pray relationship there would be no intelegent species on this planet. This is the way the Universe made us so were do you stand to say its wrong.

All the best PP

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: MMario
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 12:01 PM

think of all those poor vegetable lives that vegans slaughter! One cow dies and provides multiple humans with a meal - a vegan eats a cup of rice and slaughters hundreds of unborn little rice-lings!

the horror! woe!

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: Sooz
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 12:11 PM

Now then MMario! Use the same area of grass that supports the cow to grow a cereal crop and you can feed ten times as many people. Nice picture though, do the ricelings have cute little faces?
Pied Piper - I would not dream of imposing a vegetarian diet on everyone. As I said before I don't need meat, you are welcome to eat as you wish. However, the point needs to be made that we in the western world eat far more protein (of every sort) than we need simply because we can afford to.
I'm not sure how you define intelligence either but that must be a subject for another thread - we're already way off on this one.

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 02:00 PM

Dear Mudcat friends,

After reading this thread, I feel compelled to offer a differing view from the prevailing one. Yes, I am an actual vegan, not a parody of one.

I find that occasionally people I've met project their beliefs, convictions and views of vegetarianism onto me. I don't know why, but some folks want to fight about it, or trip me up with their illogical arguments against vegetarianism or blame me for casting an uncomfortable shadow on their choices. Like Dylan said, that "ain't me, babe." I don't blame others for going with the flow of the culture. I am just doing what works for me.

People tend to ask the same questions when they learn I'm vegan. I would like to dispel a few of the most common myths. No, I'm not a health nut. I don't plan on living forever. I can easily exceed the government-recommended protein requirements without much effort. Combining proteins is an out-of-date theory, not in touch with contemporary science. I am certain that a well-planned vegan diet is sustainable and healthy. No, I don't eat chicken or fish. It's not that tough to find great-tasting, fun vegan things to eat. I don't have violent hatred toward fast food restaurants such as McDonald's or meatpackers or meat eaters. In fact, reduction of violence and misery is at the core of my reasons for being vegan. I do not consider my choices an indictment against anyone else's choices, but for me one of the guiding principles is a general refusal to participate fully in the destructive circle of extreme factory-style farming, ubiquitous animal by-products, cruelty and exploitation and pollution. I am not aiming for perfection. Perfection is not the point of veganism, nor is it a realistic or positive goal. I truly believe that the everyday choices we make can have a beneficial effect on the world. I am vegan because it is one small way I can promote human health, the well-being of animals and the health of the planet.
   

Arguing in a comic manner that eating plant-based diet is analogous to eating an animal-based diet is as tired and ridiculous as it is ignorant. I challenge anyone to visit a slaughterhouse/abattoir and then tell me that it is remotely akin to harvesting grain or potatoes. The difference between animal agriculture and plant agriculture is much like the difference between bludgeoning a dog with a bat and cutting the lawn. I think it would be wise for some folks to study basic biology or anatomy before they offer an opinion on this subject.

For me, being vegan is a choice that matches my beliefs, convictions and view of the world.
   
About four years ago I had a revelation that eating meat of any kind was not compatible with my feelings for animals and my knowledge of physiology. Nor could I reconcile eating meat with my environmentalist ideals. Suddenly, the connection between the heart disease epidemic and the myriad health consequences of the standard American diet were completely obvious to me. I had a series of epiphanies and I felt as if I was awakening from a long sleep. I bought books and sought out information online. As I read about contemporary animal agriculture I felt that becoming vegan was a natural extension of being vegetarian. Dairy, eggs and by-products of all kinds are inextricably linked with meat. Being vegan is the only response that makes sense for me.

Try to keep in mind that being vegan is much more than a way of eating or not eating. It is a specific way to apply one's compassion to all facets of life. When I make a compassionate choice to honor life of any form, for example choosing non-violence to solve a dispute, I am not just acting as a vegan, I am acting in accordance with the way I was raised. I take heart and harden my resolve when I meet a long-time vegetarian or read about a famous person who was a vegetarian. From Gandhi and Shaw to Albert Einstein and Mary Wollstonecraft Shelley, I am in excellent company as a vegetarian.   I am glad I now enjoy the wonderful benefits of being vegan.

Sincerely,

Matthias

Subject: previous GUEST post by Matthias, sorry
From: GUEST,Matthias
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 02:05 PM

previous GUEST post by Matthias, sorry.

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 03:37 PM

Marshal Dillon aka James Arness was a vegetarian. Some of his fellow stars mentioned it in short interviews; joking about various tofu-based dishes that would be served during the filming of Gunsmoke.

Our planet's environment would be a lot better off if the land were used to grow grains instead of cattle-grazing.

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: Beccy
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 04:06 PM

Soy veh!

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: Cluin
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 04:10 PM

And what would happen to the poor cows? We wouldn't need them anymore and they would become extinct because they would become competitors for the same plant-growing area.

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 04:15 PM

...and our human environment would be a lot better if we stopped seeing ourselves as crucial players in the competition scheme...

Matthias, your clarity is brilliant, your intentions are sweet, and your communication skills are excellent.

Yeah, the urban myth about Hitler's diet is a queazy one... like diet had anything to do with his slaughtering ways...
ttr

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: Beccy
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 04:32 PM

I see eating meat as part of the circle of life... without getting protozoan on you (but getting scientific enough to group humans in the animal category):

Plant grows
Animal eats plant
Animal eats animal
Animal dies
Animal decomposes and provides fertilizer for plants to grow.

I don't care if someone doesn't eat meat. One of my best friends is a vegetarian. One of my brothers and one of my sisters (and her husband) are vegetarians. I was a vegetarian for 7 years. My Mom goes on and off veggie. If it is your lifestyle- bully for you! I just care if I'm subjected to moralization about how bad my choices in cuisine are.

Beccy

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 04:43 PM

Just a reminder to folks that this thread was started AS A JOKE. Not mean't to be serious IN ANY WAY. My contributions (whether under my name or whatever) are mean't as a LIGHT HEARTED SPOOF. I was motivated 100% by a rather serious and at times depressing tone on the B.S. part of Mudcat. Too many gloom and doom, death Dubya and destruction threads. I saw the interesting and remarkably civil "Religion and Song Circles" thread, and decided to do a "ha ha" parody of it.

So puhleeeeze, Matthias, don't let the words, attitudes, AND ESPECIALLY THE JOKES (several people are playing along for the laughs) color your thoughts on Mudcat attitudes to vegitarianism.

Start a serious thread on it, and I can guarantee you that the silliness found here in this JOKE THREAD won't happen.

Cheers

Rick

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: Cluin
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 04:46 PM

It's not safe nor good manners to laugh with a mouth full of tofu, though, RF.

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 05:02 PM

Cluin.

Is that a tuber in your pocket or are you just glad to see me?

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 06:41 PM

Ma, Rickie said the "T" w-o-r-d!!!

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 09:37 PM

...and then my poor meatball, rolled right out the door.

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: Cluin
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 09:54 PM

"Very amusing turnip.... shaped almost exactly like a thingie."

Subject: What veggies grew in Sherwood?/ Onion allergy
From: Hester
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 01:41 PM

It's not just song circles. The two other local Robin Hood enthusiasts I've met are BOTH vegetarians, believe it or not.

When getting together with one particular RH friend, we've racked our brains and cookbooks to come up with -- a medieval vegetarian menu!
Strange but true. I did learn that turnips (the real white turnips, not the rutabega that my mother of Scottish descent calls turnip), although authentic to the historical period, give me gas pains.   Enjoyed a rather nice mushroom pastie, though.

Unfortunately, we even had one British archer who briefly joined our on-line Robin Hood discussion group and, though he was not even a vegetarian, threw a flying fit that some North American bowhunters belonged to our group. Gee, deer hunters interested in Robin Hood -- who would ever have expected that?

Happily, that's the only kerfuffle we've had over venison, and how it's obtained. The vegetarians in the group are neither preachy nor squeamish when I post a medieval game recipe.

But speaking of onion allergy -- is this some sort of Canadian affliction, Rick & Clinton? Coz, damn! -- I'm becoming increasingly less able to digest them as I age, unless they're cooked thoroughly, preferably in lots of butter (oh, how unhealthy!). And I've never been able to digest garlic with any predictability. I thought I was in heaven when I discovered shallots a few years ago, but now they too give me a terrible stomach ache.

I'm really not looking forward to a bland and onion-less old age! My medieval rabbit stew just wouldn't be the same without onions.

Cheers, Hester ... merry moderator of The Greenwood

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 01:59 PM

Hester. I'm not sure if this is what you wanted, but I'm gonna start a thread SOOOOOOO scary, soooooo weird, and tell about my lifelong fear of....oh Hell, it's more than a fear, it's a vendetta against onions. If I was a drinker, I'd get drunk first just to get up the courage!

I'm just thinking of a title now.........hmmmmmmmmmmm......

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: MMario
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 02:03 PM

NOOOOooooOOOOoooooooOOOOOoooooo! Say it isn't so!

*sob* I can't believe Rick is an allium alienist! *weep,wail, knash*

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 05:19 PM

Alionionization... Allium based gastric distress... brought about by impatience at the chopping block, and the frying pan. Cook till clear.

Onions are good for you. You are not going to leave your computer untill you've eaten every last poignant chunk of raw onions that is there on your plate... yeah, but well cooked, they help remove toxins from your body, and leave that feel good feeling!.

...unless your body is already perfect, like Little's...

ttr

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 07:26 PM

WHY I OTTA!! YOUSE GUYS IS GONNA GETTIT!!

Onion boy

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: Frankham
Date: 25 Apr 03 - 11:58 AM

Sooz is right.

Meat has an over abundance of protein. The body excretes it and does not retain it the way vegetables do. As a result, meat eating can leave a person with protein depletion. Cases of osteoporosis, cancer, and other diseases that are associated with meat eating countries do not exist in other countries where meat is not a staple. In order to get protein requirements, it is necessary to eat a variety of veggies.

Meat is so rich in fat that it has created a nation of obesity, heart disease, colon cancer, intestinal disorders and gall and kidney stones.

The idea that meat creates energy is fallacious. It takes more effort to digest meat products than veggies.

Many African societies are not predominantly meat eaters. There are people from so-called Third World countries who do not suffer aforementioned afflictions.

Atherosclorosis of the brain is another by-product of meat eating.

As to the morality of eating meat, the rain forest has almost disappeared in the Amazon jungle to make way for cattle production. This happened in the 1930's in the US with the advent of the Great Dust Bowl.

It would be interesting for those who talk about the virtues of meat eating to take a trip to the Chicago stockyards, then discuss morality. Or chicken processing plants in the South.

To say that meat eating has a bearing on intelligence is like saying the sun comes up because the rooster crows.

There are many vegetarians with great intelligence.

This being said, I think it is inappropriate to criticize those who eat meat in a snobbish manner. This is just plain rude and I don't like to see it. At the same time, it would be best if carnivores didn't make fun of herbavores either.

Rick, I don't blame you for feeling irritated at those who make vegetarianism a cause celebre to hang over the heads of others. It bothers me too.

But I think the facts need to be presented as well as the parodies.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: Sooz
Date: 26 Apr 03 - 05:49 AM

Solidarity Frank! I'm with you all the way.

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: Pied Piper
Date: 26 Apr 03 - 06:52 AM

Hi Frank.
You clearly have not understood my post, maybe next time I'll use shorter words.

PP

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: Jeri
Date: 26 Apr 03 - 07:36 AM

Missed or ignored points, missed or ignored humor: I'd like to say these are caused by a vegetarian diet, but alas, there are meat eaters involved in the Great Diet Debate. I suspect scientists will eventually isolate the food rich in sense-of-humor bolstering ingredients, and it's probably going to turn out to be the cockroach parts that accidentally get into all sorts of foodstuffs.

It may well be that certain types of vegetarian diets are the modern-day hair shirts. There are those guys who are whacking themselves with whip thingies or slicing their heads OVER THERE and saying "It Is Good," and we've got folks making pine cone pies and hay souffles and saying the same thing. There's a certain amount of social brain-washing involved: "Here, try this. I found the recipe in 'Fibre Weekly' and it's absolutely to-die-for!" Then you eat it and either lie about how much you like it or manage to convince yourself its actually yummy!

I don't personally have anything against good vegetarian dishes, just the ones that make me look to see if I'm eating my napkin.

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 26 Apr 03 - 10:53 AM

Ummm, actually Frank, I can't even imagine getting angry at something as innocuous as someone touting a certain lifestyle, vegitarian or otherwise. The whole thread was a joke....didn't I say that before...several times actually.

PLEASE, will someone (preferably one of the folks taking this seriously) start a "Vegitarianism" thread. It IS a serious subject, and I'm sure a good discussion will ensue.

Cheers

Rick

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 26 Apr 03 - 11:44 AM

When I was vegitarian, I was sometimes nice...
More frequently all sensity, Offended once or twice
ttr

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: Marion
Date: 26 Apr 03 - 04:51 PM

Geez Rick, that was quite a dramatic story you came up with just to avoid coming over for a vegan meal.

Since Beccy asked for more smart-ass quotes about vegetarianism:

When somebody asks me why I'm veg and I feel the situation calls for sarcasm, I say, "I don't like the sight and smell of dead bodies. I'm a little funny that way." And if someone who should really know better asks where I get my protein, I just say, "What's protein?"

(When not being a smart-ass, my thoughts are similar to Matthias'.)

Marion

PS I'm a fifth level vegan: I don't eat anything that casts a shadow.

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: Beccy
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 01:37 PM

Touchy, touchy, Marion... I am from the south and I also collect redneck jokes. FYI, I started collecting "smart ass" statements about vegetarianism when I WAS a vegetarian.

Beccy

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: Mudlark
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 07:56 PM

Since this thread has crept all over the place I'd like to add my 2 cents worth...which is...as far as music sessions go I'm a nofoodarian. If I want to talk, I can use the telephone. If I want to eat, I can fix it myself. But when I want to play with other folks I find both talking and eating a terrible waste of music time! Living in the boonies, I often have to drive for over an hour to get to someplace for 2-3 hours of music. Much as I like the people I play with, I prefer making music with them at such times, rather than eating and endless socializing. The thot of having to drag along a covered dish of ANY ilk to such a get together, along with guitar case, dulcimer case, music, etc. doesn't thrill me either.

Now a little glass (or more) of a robust red wine, just to clear the pipes, is always welcome. A sip between songs is always salubrious.

Starved for music curmudgeoness...

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 10:56 PM

Welcome home Marion. Are you going to tell us about your adventures?

Rick

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: Susan A-R
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 11:03 PM

Wow! As an omnivore who makes her living cooking largely vegetarian food (Susan's Kitchen just started doing one meat meal a week) this IS interesting. An awfully large portion of the world doesn't eat meat for a variety of reasons, costs, religion, health, whatever, and there's some mighty fine vegetarian food because of it.

So much good food (of all sorts) and so little time.

Lately I've been encountering more "Carnivore backlash" as I call it, folks being agressively MEAT than agressive vegetarians. I wonder what that's about?


Personally, I want to start the ban on mushrooms. Slimey little devils. Can't swallow 'em, can't stand 'em. I'll eat pretty much anything else though.

Oh, puts me in mind of a wonderful Julia Childs Story I heard recently. Someone came to visit Julia when she was cooking beef tongue. She asked them if they would like some, to which they replied that they would never eat something that came out of the mouth of a cow. She said, without batting an eye "shall I make you an omlette?

Rick, I cooked from some massive, wonderful vegetarian Indian cook book for about three years before I realized it was Vedic (Vadic?? who knows, I can't spell) ie. onion and garlic free. It's good stuff, but no critters.

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: Gurney
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 04:22 AM

On the thread, I always take a big pork pie to the 'plate' functions, and I buy it in a shop. It is usually the first plate empty, and the only complaint ever was for not bringing mustard. Speaking for myself, I like to know what I'm eating BEFORE I take a serving, because some of those things look as if they've been eaten once already, and I don't like to sniff them. Maybe labels?       Chris, who'll eat anything he takes, but wouldn't take a parsnip.

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: Marion
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 10:47 AM

Rick, I wrote some things about my vacation in "Germany: busking, sessions, people".

Beccy, one more I thought of: if anyone expresses disgust at seeing me eat tofu or whatever, I've been known to say: "This, from a guy who eats livers."

Marion

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: PoppaGator
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 12:14 PM

Yes, the typical industrial-world diet includes *way* too much meat, and is bad not only for the health of the meat-eaters but of the planet as well.

However, I don't think strict veganism/vegeatrianism is the appropriate reponse. Meat is our only source of *complete* protein, and humans are, and have always been, omniverous animals. We just need to eat a lot less meat, using it as a small but essential component of our diet rather than as the main feature.

Look at all great peasant cuisines from around the world. Lots of grains and greens, with a little bit of meat and seafood. The ever-popular Chinese food is a good example, as are Mexican, Cajun, etc., etc.

All these different peoples around the world learned to combine beans with rice, which is the only combination of vegetables yielding the full spectrum of amino acids. They didn't go into a laboratory to determine that this combination made a uniquely nutritious dish, they learned from experience, independently in various places around the globe. I suppose this is what is meant by the "folk process."

And, of course, combined with your beans and rice, you include a modicum of flesh -- "seasoning meat," as we say in Louisiana. The Cajuns, who are only a couple of generations removed from a pre-industrial hunter-gatherer culture, can remember when the available meat or seafood component was determined by the season of the year: shrimp in the spring, fresh pork in the fall, sausage (preserved meat) in the dead of winter, etc. All in moderation, of course; a diverse and healthy diet maintained in balance with nature.

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: Homeless
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 04:41 PM

So, just how much is "a lot less meat"?
Supposing I don't want to continue eating "the typical industrial-world diet," how I do know where I should be within that vast gray area that goes from "*way* too much meat" to "a lot less meat"?
Are we talking one 16 oz steak a week? A steak a day? One chicken nugget per meal? (I know, chickens don't have nuggets. However, I contest that roosters do.) No meat except on Sundays? Nun on Fridays?
I mean really, if you're going to shake your finger at us, give us some pointers to help mend our evil ways.

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: MMario
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 04:43 PM

My nutritionist mother always said that 2 0z of meat was sufficient for a meal

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: PoppaGator
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 05:13 PM

I feel no need at all to quantify the exact amount of meat you should eat, Homeless, although MMario's mother seems to have a reasonable suggestion.

If you thought I was "shaking my finger" at you as a carnivore, you probably *do* need to cut down on that read meat just a little bit.

My intention was to offer some constructive criticism to the vegetarian camp, while granting some of their most valid and obvious arguments. My point was that complete elimination of meat from the human diet is neither healthy nor is it ever likely to happen, even granting that overindulgence in meat is no good for society, for the environment, nor even for the individual consumer.

If the human community is clear-cutting rain forests to raise beef cattles for fast-food industry, something obviously ain't right with the world. And TV advertising has brought you to the point where the *only* thing you can think of to eat when you're hungry is a burger or a steak, perhaps you need to reducate yourself and your palate.

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: Homeless
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 07:15 PM

Good Gravy! (Can I say gravy on a veggie thread? (I guess if it's white gravy it ought to be okay.)) Rick's right, everyone is pretty serious on this thread.

BTW, Rick, shouldn't that be oil & water, rather than oil & vinegar?

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 08:02 PM

Well actually Homeless....that WAS the joke. The food at Toronto Song Circles has become vegitarian based.

Rick

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: PoppaGator
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 10:54 AM

Good gravy indeed -- sorry about being too serious; those militant vegans can be pretty dern serious, and you caught me responding in kind.

By the way, white gravy -- at least, as served over biscuits in Texas -- is far from meatless. It's made outta fat ( skillet drippin's), if I'm not mistaken.

If I may, let me introduce some thread creep here:

Those vegetarians who are dictating your potluck menus -- are any of them chainsmokers? I've encountered this more than once in the past, and considser it the height of hypocrisy. After all, if you don't want to eat meat, you can pick and choose your selections from the buffet, but if you are offended by / allergic to secondhand tobacco smoke, there ain't a damn thing you can do about it.

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 11:21 AM

White gravy eh? Is that what I'd have had on a "Chicken Fried Steak"?

Boy customs are different in the different regions of North America. In Toronto, perhaps one out of a hundred folkies smoke. When I go to a Bluegrass show, practically EVERYONE'S puffing. At a Blues show, the musicians ON STAGE are smoking!

Cheers

Rick

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: PoppaGator
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 03:07 PM

Yes indeed, white gravy is often poured over chicken-fried steak (which is a boneless piece of beef, ideally but not always a veal cutlet, battered and deep-fried in the same manner as fried chicken).

In the bad old days of the '60s folk "revival" or "scare," there was a whole lot of tobacco smoking (along with incineration of other substances as well). I can't count the number of times I saw a performer light a cigarette upon arriving onstage, and then stick the thing under a string up near the tuning machines at the head of the guitar neck. Just to add to the "atmosphere," apparently.

Here in New Orleans, there is *plenty* of smoking at all the live music venues (i.e., bars). Your hair and clothes smell pretty much like an ashtray after an evening out. Among the musicians, especially vocalists, there's less tobacco use than 10-20 years ago, but *way* more than "one out of a hundred" still indulge.

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: Frankham
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 03:16 PM

Hi Pied Piper

You say,

"Your point about protien storage is correct, but vegetables also contain protien and an excess of vegitable derived protien would be excreted after breackdown into ammino-acids in just the same way as animal."

I say,

This isn't quite right. The body handles animal protein differently. It also handles cooked food differently than it does raw. The fats break down into trans-fatty acids which create blockages in the arteries. Veggies don't do this.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: Frankham
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 03:39 PM

k, you opened a can of worms or shall we say you are being pummelled with organic carrots of varying sizes. Before you are pelted unmercifully with produce, I think that we could all as you say lighten up.

I think what goes into a person's mouth doesn't necessarilly indicate what happens when music comes out of it. I believe that people should ingest what they want as long as I don't have to breathe it (second hand smoke). Everyone has the right to do with their bodies what they want. Anybody who claims they have a superior lifestyle to lord over someone else is just plain rude or stupid.

I think it's ok to poke fun at us vegans. We may be from a different planet, (The Planet Vega) not necessarilly more advanced in any way than anyone else but we are happy with our choices. We reserve the right though to turn the tables on cow consumption for a little fun as well. So, anti-vegans, "mooo--ve over." And we need to be able to express what we view as the facts without eliciting rancor.

The little turnip top did the backward flop
The cabbage did the shimmy and she did not stop.
The little beet shook his feet
And the watermelon died with a cockeyed heave.
Little tomater, that agitater,
Did the shimmy with the sweet pertater.
And old man garlic dropped dead with the colic...
Down at the barnyard dance (this mornin')
Down at the barnyard dance........Martin, Bogan and Armstrong wrote a great song.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: PoppaGator
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 03:50 PM

Nice lyrics, that "Barnyard Dance" -- brings to mind the Danny Barker classic "Save the bones for Henry Jones, 'Cuz Henry doesn't eat no meat."

What a vegetarian would want with gnawed-down bones, I wouldn't venture a guess; however, the song is pretty entertaining. Sorry, I don't have it memorized, so I can't quote it in its entirety.

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: Susan A-R
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 10:57 PM

Say, Poppa Gator,
My truly vegetarian spouse is heading for New Orleans in a week. I was just there and had a fabulous time eating po' boys, meat, shrimp and other fishy things. Any suggestions for someone who really doesn't indulge in fish or meat? (Beignets are great, but I suppose he can't live on 'em for a week)

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: PoppaGator
Date: 01 May 03 - 04:04 PM

New Orleans offers many great culinary alternatives for those who avoid meat but gladly eat seafood. However, eliminating fish and shellfish from the menu makes it a *lot* tougher to make any recommendation at all.

There's one excellent vegetarian restaurant in town, called "Old Dog New Trick Cafe." They used to be located in the French Quarter but have moved a few blocks uptown into the Central Business District.

Also, I believe the Middle-Eastern ethnic cuisine includes a number of strictly vegetarian dishes; Mona's, which has two or three locations, is excellent.

Bennachin's, an African (Ehtiopian?) restaurant, runs a concession at the Jazz Festival offering excellent vegetarian dishes, so one would assume that the same fare is available at their regular restaurant address.

Also, there is a large Vietnamese population whose markets and restaurants offer vegetarian meals. The two centers of Vietnamese culture are on the West Bank (not far from the center of town, but across the Mississippi River Bridge) and New Orleans East (more remote, well beyond the High-rise bridge out I-10 East, but within the city limits).

There are still a few po-boy outlets that serve an old-time favorite, the fried potato sandwich. This is normally a cheaper alternative to the classic New Orleans roast beef sandwich, a loaf of French bread stuffed with French fries swimming in brown gravy and dressed with lettuce, tomato and mayonnaise. A strictly vegetarian out-of-town guest a couple of years ago discovered this sandwich and ate one every day, substituting red gravy (marinara sauce, i.e., Italian tomato sauce) for the usual brown (beef) gravy.

By the way, his favorite source for this sandwich was Danny & Clyde's, a chain of gas station/convenience stores found in all the surrounding suburbs. Despite appearances, these guys produce really excellent, authentic New Orleans food for a very reasonable price.

For yourself and anyone else in your party willing and able to ingest seafood, I suggest you indulge in a lunch at Uglesich's, a wonderful little spot just outside the business district on the edge of a sdomwhat more downscale neighborhood. Originally a very ordinary working-class lunch spot catering to the employees of the large dairy operation across the street, this place turns out the most original versions of traditional local dishes, using the absolute freshest ingredients. Mr. Anthony, the owner/chef, is approaching retirement age and has no younger generation ready to take over. He closes for a nice long vacation every August, and each year we don't know whether or not he'll ever reopen. The place does not serve dinner, only lunch on weekdays, and there are only ten tables. Show up before noon to be sure to get in, and show up before August or you might never have the chance again.

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 May 03 - 05:27 PM

Well, Frank, finally drew me into posting the first part of "Down at the Barnyard Dance" which as I recall goes:

It was late last night in the pale moonlight
That the vegetables had their spree;
They put out a sign, said "Dancing's at 9
And All the Admissions are FREE";
There was peas and greens, cabbage and beans,
It was the biggest thing you ever did see,
And when Ol' Cucumber, struck up that number
You should have heard them vegetables scream!

I used to sing it for our periodic food co-op benefits in Michigan, followed by "Dundebeck's Machine" or "Sweeney Todd the Barber" depending on my fancy.

No one, I think, has mentioned the "okra", that lovely slimey green thing that my mother used to like to steam up and pile onto my innocent plate, next to the leaks and brussel sprouts.

I was intrigued to learn from this joke thread that Hitler was not necessarily a vegetarian. I'll have to forward that info to Joel Mabus who composed a song entitled "Hitler was a Vegetarian Too."

What an amazingly educational thread!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble, who's getting hungry!

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: PoppaGator
Date: 01 May 03 - 06:06 PM

Okra!

This strange vegetable may have come from Africa on the slave ships --experts differ. Most agree that another name for okra, in one of the West African languages, is "gombo" or "gumbo," and the thick stew called Gumbo, usually containing two meat and/or seafood components (e.g., shrimp and andouille sausage) snd served over white rice, is the most palatable use of okra. The "sliminess" that can be quite disagreeable when okra is boiled by itself serves as a thinkening agent in a good gumbo.

Another good okra dish is fried okra: chop the okra into bite-sized pieces, roll in corn meal, and deep-fry. No need to dip the pieces in egg wash or any other liquid; the okra's natural, er, fluids serve to make the cornmeal or corn flour stick tight.

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: Burke
Date: 01 May 03 - 06:30 PM

Poppa, I've tried to fry my okra that way, but the cornmeal does not stick. I've also had it dipped in a batter, deep fried & with parmesian cheese on it. Doesn't Kentucky Fried Chicken have it? My grandmother could buy big bags of okra frozen & battered ready to deep fry in the Mobile area.

Personally, I like plain okra, steamed or boiled & a little butter. As a child I rejected it. Fortunately my parents allowed us to eat alternative veggies. I really do like it now, you get the full flavor.

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 May 03 - 07:28 PM

My parents also used to steam eggplant, until it transformed into, what looked to my brother and I, a gelatinous pool of Irish Setter droll.

It wasn't till years later that I discover the joys of traditional Italian baked eggplant parmaginia. And, yes, I agree that even okra, suitably submerged in gumbo is fine!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: PoppaGator
Date: 02 May 03 - 10:04 AM

Burke,

I don't have any first-hand knowledge of frying okra; I was only passing along what I've heard from others. (I was privy to a long message-board discussion of various vegetables about a year ago, as part of a technical writers' group dedicated to goofing off and discussing just about everything *except* technical writing. Quite a few respondants who had grown up in the South had fond memories of Momma's fried okra.)

We use okra pretty much exclusively for gumbo. When I first moved to Lousiana about 30 years ago, I had very limited experience eating okra and found it pretty disgusting. After my fist bowl of turkey and oyster gumbo, I had a quick change of heart about the slimy vegetable.

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: Homeless
Date: 02 May 03 - 11:23 AM

Oh, man, how could anyone not like okra? But the best way I've found (outside of gumbo) is pickled okra. Better than pickled cukes any day of the week.

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: GUEST,John Brown
Date: 02 May 03 - 12:12 PM

Linda McCartney might as well have eaten a little meat, and that goes for Eul Gibbons too! I got your pine nuts...right here!   JB

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: PoppaGator
Date: 02 May 03 - 12:13 PM

I forgot all about pickled okra -- excellent in Bloody Marys!

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: Burke
Date: 02 May 03 - 07:24 PM

I left Louisiana over 30 years ago. At the time there were lots of veggies I did not eat, including okra.

My dad worked very hard to grow okra in Minnesota. That was not easy, even with hardier hybreds. I think I developed a taste for okra & tomatoes about the same time from my dad's home grown vegs. Once you're past the slime, the taste is soooo good! Much more worthwhile than, say, raw oysters. Or grits, that put me off by texture as a child & I still don't much care for.

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: Charley Noble
Date: 02 May 03 - 08:35 PM

Well, it's all over for them Brussel sprouts, the ones I found in the bottom of my parents' freezer while I was defrosting it today. Vintage 1973! I summarily tossed them out the woodshed door, where they produced a crater rivaling that National Park in south central Oregon.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: Sooz
Date: 03 May 03 - 01:05 PM

It's taken me 2 days to realise that PoppaGator is describing a chip butty in his post! It hit me while I was eating one during an excellent concert at Wath-upon-Dearne Folk Festival this afternoon.

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: mg
Date: 04 May 03 - 12:14 PM

You guys, no one here knows whether you are eating too much protein or not. Your body knows and you override it with good intentioned fear mongering. Every person's needs will differ. Not only do some people need a fair amount of protein (like more than 2 oz per meal..or some would say 3 oz per day..the famous deck of cards) but some need the high purine protein found in red meat, some fish, etc. Some people need the saturated fat found in animal products. Read everything that Dr. Mary Enig has written. She actually studies this. A lot of what is passed off as nutritional advice is really a philosophy and/or religion with some nuggets of truth and some whoppers of misinformation. No one needs artificial fats and no one needs highly processed or refined carbohydrates. After that, the jury is still out, and a whole lot of the massive health problems we have are caused by people not eating what their, not your, body needs. mg

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: Frankham
Date: 05 May 03 - 09:10 AM

Mary Garvey writes:

"Read everything that Dr. Mary Enig has written. She actually studies this."

There are a great many people who are studying this field. Many are doctors. Doctor McDougal is one who would be good to read as well. Also, it has to be said that doctors as a general rule are not acquainted with nutrition as much as dispensing medications and surgery. As to the individual body needing specific requirements, this makes some sort of sense until you realize that bodies have been conditioned psychologically to eat certain foods which are not necessary or beneficial. There is little objectivity here, as Mary says, but also a lot of misinformation propagated by the meat packing industry, the dairy industry, the poultry industry and other ancillary groups such as the medical people who rely on these industries to fatten their wallets. Drug companies are also culpable in this regard.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: PoppaGator
Date: 05 May 03 - 11:07 AM

It took me a minute to figure out what is meant by a "chip butty" -- I couldn't imaging it was anything made from okra, and had to look a bit further back in the thread.

It's a fried potato sandwich, right? (I do have enough international savvy to have learned that "chips" are what we call "fries" on this side of the Atlantic, and "crisps" are what we call "chips.") I had never encountered such a thing before arriving in New Orleans 30+ years ago, and did not know there was a British equivalent of this carbohydrate overdose.

The classic N.O. potato po-boy is basically an effort to duplicate the taste, and exceed the filling-ness, of the popular roast beef po-boy sandwich, without the expense of using actual meat. A liberal dose of roast beef gravy is the critical ingredient, which normally disqualifies the sandwich for vegetarians. My vegetarian guest figured he could ask the counterman to subsitute "red gravy" (tomato sauce) and came up with something he could eat, and indeed did eat with considerable gusto, once every day for over a week.

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: Sooz
Date: 05 May 03 - 11:23 AM

Here in Britain HP sauce is the classic condiment for the chip butty.

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: Jeri
Date: 05 May 03 - 05:18 PM

What's 'HP sauce'?
I've had okra in soup and liked it. That's what made me want to try cooking it. I like the taste of it, just not the glutinous nature. I suppose knowing how to cook it would have helped me a bit. Pickled would probably be fine, as would fried.

I'd suspect most vegetarians have healthier diets than I do. I don't eat much protein at all and I probably should eat more. I'm into convenience food. Thank goodness nice weather is arriving, as it makes it easier to just put a bunch of raw veggies or beans in a bowl and add dressing! (And BOY, did I gain a load of weight last winter! Pasta is a pretty convenient food too.)

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: mg
Date: 05 May 03 - 09:59 PM

Dr. Enig is a biochemist. Here is the book I keep referring too..the original researcher was a dentist. Metabolic typing diet. William Wolcott and Trish Fahey. You can sign up for a free newsletter by Dr. Mercola who uses this concept a lot in his practice. I think we have been scared away from meats and dairy products, to the detriment of the health of many people who need them, assuming there is good animal husbandry, which most often there is not.

A lot of this stuff is emperical. You don't need a theory. You can measure improvements in your health by weight, temperature, blood sugar, blood pressure etc. And you will feel better. I know that I can lose weight by eating a high fat, high protein, high vegetable diet, and when I start adding in even good carbs I either stop losing or gain. The struggle I have is not physical...it is really quite easy to do this diet..but logistical and financial. It is more expensive, and it is not portable and everything is more complicated..shopping, porting it around on the bus, cooking more often, etc. You can't just take a sandwich to work for example...I also am one of those people who don't extract energy from carbohydrates..it all goes to fat..has to do with insulin resistance, which of course I know I have. So if you have weight struggles or health problems, read this book and Dr. Schwarzbein's books on diabetes. mg

Subject: RE: Vegetarianism&Song Circles Oil&Vinegar!
From: GUEST,Sooz(at work)
Date: 06 May 03 - 03:48 AM

HP sauce is brown, spicy and vinegary and comes in a bottle from the supermarket. My Mum used to say it would rot my guts. Hasn't yet!