Violence is the American Way?

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 12:25 PM

Okay I apologize for mushy-headed, but reserve on half-baked.

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: Cluin
Date: 26 Apr 03 - 06:54 PM

I was just commenting on McGrath's response, Guest.

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Apr 03 - 05:07 AM

Wow, McGrath and Cluin! Though the question was sincere, it obviously wasn't clear. (or daft, or stupid) The suggestion that the question was for personal reflection meant that each poster might ask the question of self, ie., consider his/her own posts in the thread, and think about whether their words promoted peace or violence. Not a bad question to ask oneself, really. Not snide, just something to ponder.

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: NicoleC
Date: 25 Apr 03 - 06:21 PM

Sounds similar to the US, Cluin; some folks think all those foreign influences are ruining us, others like me think it's a wonderful gift. But I think most Americans hold Ellis Island as powerful and important of an icon of "Americanism" as the Old West or the Boston Tea Party.

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: GUEST,Cluin
Date: 25 Apr 03 - 06:07 PM

And Nicole, to answer your question from above: it varies from person to person. I know many Canucks that, like me, consider our avowed multiculturalism a thing to be proud of, and others that consider it a useless and doomed socialogical experiment (they feel that different cultures cannot possible co-exist in close proximity and need to either assimilate and change the culture of the so-called majority from within as they do... "melting pot", IOW). But most probably just accept things as the status quo and don't think about it too much.

I personally consider it a worthwhile experiment, perhaps the most worthwhile going on on the planet today. If we can make it work in our country, perhaps there's hope for a balkanized planet to not tear itself apart while still preserving cultural diversity. A tough way to go, but, what the hell... the melting pot option will always be there (assuming there's anything left when the dust clears).

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: GUEST,Cluin
Date: 25 Apr 03 - 05:58 PM

There's yer answer. It's violence. Stupid questions make you wanna slap the questioner.

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Apr 03 - 05:27 AM

"Do my words on this thread promote peace or violence?"

That's a remarkably daft question from an invisible presence; it's completely impossible to know which posts "my words" refer to, since all GUEST posts could well be from completely different people.

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: DougR
Date: 25 Apr 03 - 02:16 AM

daylia: you suggest that I shoot Peg? Shame on you! To think you would go to such lengths just to prove your point! :>) 'Tis getting a bit testy here. Think I'll go find Bobert and slap him around a bit just for fun. :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: harpgirl
Date: 25 Apr 03 - 01:27 AM

"violence" is just too generic a word to promote meaningful dialogue here, in my view.

I think one must differentiate between aggression, which is usually inacted to get something one wants, and narcissistic rage, which is the result of narcissistic injury. Suicide is then better understood as a response to the many narcissistic injuries of life.

Is our country more violent? Hmmmm, we are a nation of aggressive people, bent on getting more of what we want. We also create great narcissistic injury and therefore narcissistic rage in segments of our people such as the poor as a result of powerlessness and discrimination.

Daily life is full of interactions which create shame and narcissisitc injury and narcissistic rage. Empathic attunement goes a long way in reducing the negative effects of narcissistic rage. But what do we do about our aggressiveness???????????

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Apr 03 - 12:38 AM

Here is another question that needs no written response. For individual reflection only....

Do my words on this thread promote peace or violence?

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: Amos
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 09:51 PM

OK, Peg -- I'd be interested in your views.

I'll start a separate thread just now.

Its over here.    I mean, over here!.

Regards,


A

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 07:28 PM

Okay, now to make everyone feel better, go to the American Jokes thread, and look at the last link, which I just put in. I think it's hysterical, especially if you're over a certain age.

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: Peg
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 07:16 PM

Personally, I think a discussion about the propensity towards violence in America as it may or may not be influenced by socioeconomic status, media exposure, genetics, the public school system, or any other set of influences, would be very interesting.

This thread, as has been pointed out, was started not with a desire for meaningful (or even controversial) discussion; but with the following caveat : "I provide these statistics; their imprt should be obvious to any pea-brain; to disagree is to insult me and everything I stand for!"

What the initial tension that arose was based in (correct me if I am wrong) was in drawing attention to the flawed arguments based on statistics that did not support (or in some cases were not even related to) the initial claim of the poster.
When people tried politely and reasonably to question this they were met with evasion, manipuation and finally insults.

I am sorry to other would-be participants in this thread for whatever part I had in causing its downfall...I think that is just where it was doomed to end up unfortuanetly, given its origins; but I do not apologize to *daylia*.

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: heric
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 06:40 PM

That's not good enough, Larry. You first must admit that you have imprinted upon you by your birth a propensity to violence, that yours is not a "moral" nation, and then tell us what you are going to do about it.

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: Amos
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 06:34 PM

Oh, BS, Larry -- no-one ever said that Bush and his Klan aren't violent, nor that war is not violent.

Define "American". I'm one, and I can tell you that violence is not my way. You're one too, and have seen more than I have, but you wouldn't own it is your way.

Spaw? Bobert? Nicole? These are all Americans. You think their way is violence?

Or do you think of them as less American because it is not?

Let's shake down these imponderable generalities, shall we?


A

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: InOBU
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 06:13 PM

Ok Ok, I give up, I agree with you. We are NOT a violent nation as shown by raining millions of tons of bombs on a nation in a first strike against a nation what never attacked us pulling poor little England along on a lie... a peaceful loving thing to do. Larry

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: NicoleC
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 05:07 PM

Hmmm. I'll have to take your word for it, Cluin. It seems reasonable enough; Canada is certainly a diverse place.

Is it a source of national pride to a Canadian, or just an accepted part of being in Canada?

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: Cluin
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 04:58 PM

Not quite, NicoleC.

Most Canadians tend to see the difference in American and Canadian attitudes towards immigrant contribution to their cultures as:

Canada is multicultural; The US is melting pot.

Very generalized and simplistic, but what hasn't been that way in this thread?

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 03:31 PM

I'm sure if someone came out with those allegations that the Chinese were no good at maths, the only reaction of most Chinese people would be profound amusement. And maybe, in some cases, quiet pleasure at the proof that these foreigners really were a bit thick.

But that suggestion Nicole gives is interesting - the suggestion that Americans might be expected to get hot at the collar at generalisations which imply that Americans are similar, because in fact they pride themselves on their diversity.

The implication of that presumably would be that generalisations about how wonderful Americans were would be just as hotly contested.

Actually I suspect, if I were American I would object to them, as patronisingly offensive, and I'd object to them whether they were made by foreigners or fellow Americans.

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 03:29 PM

discordio, ergo sum crudesco barbarus

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: MMario
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 03:18 PM

My take on it is that the subject for intellectual inquiry here
was: "Given the cultural imprinting upon American citizens of a propensity to violence, and overcoming your denial of it, may we
have a peaceful dialogue to deepen my understanding of you."

interesting that you took her premise that way - because what she said basicaly boils down to: Americans are violent and these statistics prove it.

" the decidely American propensity towards war and violent crime is
"common knowledge", verified by not only history and crime statistics but also the content of American TV, movies and music. " isn't an invitation to discuss - it is an accusation which she did not back up.

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: NicoleC
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 03:11 PM

I disagree, Kevin. Notice Daylia's reaction to my passing references to Canadian stereotypes -- and I didn't even say I thought they were true.

Like any stereotype, after it's been poked at for a while it gets sore. And America gets poked at a lot -- part of the price of being a world power.

It's a little harder to so broadly insult at a place like Ireland, where there is a strong sense of shared identity through culture. If you call Irishmen a bunch of brawling drunks, half of them would take it as a compliment -- not because it was true, but because they embrace their cultural similarities and are proud of them.

If there's anything resembling an American "identity," it's that we define of ourselves as diverse and different. (Some are happy about it, others bemoan the fact.) We don't even have an official language. Broad generalizations are not only absurd, they strike at the core of what America is. That's the sore spot. It's one thing to try to discuss American in general terms -- we do it all the time here -- it's a another thing to paint a stereotype as truth (as I think most of us felt Daylia did) and then ask someone to disprove it. You might as well as the Chinese to prove they aren't "good at math." It's an absurd premise that gains nothing by merely repeating it loudly and frequently.

Some place like Canada has seen many waves of immigrants, too, but I don't think they've ever identified themselves as strongly with it. Too long under British rule during the formative years, perhaps?

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 03:06 PM

Yes, MMario. That's where this went wrong: at the start, not later. My take on it is that the subject for intellectual inquiry here was: "Given the cultural imprinting upon American citizens of a propensity to violence, and overcoming your denial of it, may we have a peaceful dialogue to deepen my understanding of you." The boat doesn't float.

If you disagree with the premise, you disagree with Daylia's premise, and since it's daylia's premise, you are attacking daylia, and that's ad hominem, and you are violent. Logic right up the wazuu.

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: MMario
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 02:52 PM

uhmmm? am I missing something here? The only "violence" and fury I see in this thread is over the refusal of the originator to explain WHY she feels that the statistics she qoutes prove a violent America. I *still* do not see what the milatary budget or suicide stratistics have to do with a culture of violence, or the incidence of violent crime.

Daylia herself said that she felt the increased deaths by gun were probably due to availability rather then an inherent increase of violent tendencies (contridicting her own premise)

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 02:47 PM

No, that was not the implication. Okay, McGrath of Harlow, I will be happy.

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 02:41 PM

I imagine the implication of heric's cod quote there was to suggest that something like that would cause an equivalent eruption of fury from people in Ireland or from Irish people in England.

I'm inclined to doubt it. And if the allegation was made about the whole wide continent we live in, I'd doubt it very much indeed.

As the song has it, "Don't worry, be happy."

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 01:54 PM

Thank you for your thoughts, Amos. It's never too late.

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 01:38 PM

Sorry Don.....I tried, but once these threads start downhill it's like riding an elephant in the same direction.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: Amos
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 01:31 PM

Barky did the same thing -- she reached out for the needle instead of flinching for it -- but while I thought it was indicative of an adventurous spirit I see no reason to interpret it as aggressive.

A

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 01:26 PM

Babies are teaching us the origins of violence
http://www.birthpsychology.com/violence/chamberlain1.html

Now that amniocentesis is common, babies in the womb frequently confront a needle entering their private territory. Studies show they react fearfully, defensively, and sometimes aggressively (Ianniruberto and Tajani, 1981). This was brought to my attention again when an acquaintance told us of her experience during amniocentesis. Her husband, the doctor, and the ultrasound technician all saw little Claire bat the side of the needle! The technician said, "Take it out!" When the doctor reinserted the needle, the fetus again attacked it , forcing the doctor to remove the needle. The husband and doctor were in a nervous sweat. The doctor said he had never before seen a baby bat a needle. The parents had an instant lesson in prenatal psychology: they had no idea that a baby this age could sense the intrusion of a needle (and with eyelids fused), have such strong feelings and take such effective action.

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 01:23 PM

This started out as a good topic for discussion and a chance, especially for the Americans who inhabit this place to do a little self-examination and, perhaps, apply a little close scrutiny to the culture in which we live. We do seem to have this image of being a violent people. Why? Is it true? And if there is more violence in America, then why is that? What can we do about it? All important questions.

I've been associated, at least in a peripheral way, with the Alternatives to Violence organization (my wife is a facilitator, and I have attended several of the workshops), and I thought this would be a good opportunity to explore different viewpoints, but I guess not. It's too bad that instead of using it as an opportunity to learn something, many folks here seem to take it personally and feel insulted by the topic. And getting hot under the collar, they lost the thread of what it was all about and got personal. It started fairly well, then degenerated into a pissing contest.

Too bad. No point in hanging around in this thread, I guess. It's getting a little to . . . violent.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: Cluin
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 01:21 PM

That's it!

daylia, you go sit in that chair!

Peg and MMario, sit on the couch over there!

I'm putting on the TV and I don't want you kids even LOOKing at each other for at least 3 hours. Ihear any more noise in here and I'm sending Amos in with his belt!

(non-violently, of course)

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 01:16 PM

I don't know that this translates across the pond very well, Mr. Harlow. Daylia knows, as you may not, that I am a Canadian citizen. Your continued focus on Americans being unduly sensitive to criticism, alluded to twice on this thread and frequently in others, is valid in its own context, but I think you are mistaken in applying it in this situation.

------------------------------------------------


For those of us who've lived and studied outside Eire, the decidely Irish propensity towards war and violent crime is "common knowledge", verified by not only history and crime statistics but also the content of Irish TV, movies and music.

However, when I've mentioned this on Mudcat I've been puzzled at the response from Irish Catters (and GUESTS) - often, they either deny it outright or display large gaps of knowledge concerning their own 'national character', at least as it's seen by other nations.

I wondered why this was so ... have English historians and sociologists doctored statistics and taught lies about Ireland then? ... until I found this article yesterday - Violence is the Irish Way.

It claims, among other things that "The reality untaught in Irish schools and textbooks is that war – whether on a large or small scale – and domestic violence have been pervasive in Irish life and culture from this country's earliest days over 4000 years ago. Violence, in varying forms, according to the leading historian of the subject, Richard Maxwell Brown, "has accompanied virtually every stage and aspect of its national experience," and is "part of its unacknowledged (underground) value structure." Indeed, "repeated episodes of violence going far back into its Celtic past, have imprinted upon its citizens a propensity to violence."

Thus, Ireland demonstrated a national predilection for war and domestic violence long before 1969, but its leaders and intellectuals through most of the last century cultivated the national self-image, a myth, of Ireland as a moral, "peace-loving" nation which the Irish population seems unquestioningly to have embraced."

The article contains some very interesting statistics and analysis. Please note - I'm not posting it here to point the finger at anyone, but to hopefully generate some peaceful - and eye-opening - discussion about the claims it makes.

Thanks all - (hoping to deepen my understanding of my neighbours).

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 12:46 PM

It does all seem a bit violent here.

Now if it had been "Violence the European Way?", or "the Australian Way?" would it have got quite so angry?

No, please don't go trying it.

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: Amos
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 12:37 PM

PDC:

I am very sorry to hear about it.   My heartfelt condolences, however late and inadequate they are.

A

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 12:24 PM

May cooler heads prevail . . .

There is little point in pursuing this thread -- I just looked it over, and it started out fairly well, but then deteriorated into evidence based on personal experiences (spurious), and emotional opinions.

I would like to make one point, however, then I think I will start a new thread on what Gunter Grass has just written about the current US administration. Daylia said:

"Suicide, regardless of the motives behind it, IS a violent act -- the most violent that can be perpetrated against the self."

Actually, Daylia, I have to disagree with you. My daughter committed suicide 4 years ago last January. Her death was peaceful, caused by an overdose of pills. I think that a suicide can be violent, but that violence in suicide is defined by the the manner in which one takes one's own life.

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: Amos
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 11:42 AM

The answer is "No", goddammit. You ask again and I'm getting my belt...


A

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: Peg
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 11:41 AM

You have a responsibility to answer the questions since YOU first offered the statistics which, to many of us, do not add up logically to support the conclusions YOU are making.

Pointing the finger and asking others to prove THEIR point makes it "glaringly obvious" you're avoiding the issue.

Saying it's "glaringly obvious" YET AGAIN after being told that it's not, well, that's more evasion.

Claiming it's "glaringly obvious" to a kindergarten child when you are dealing with educated adults is just plain absurd.

IT"S NOT OBVIOUS. THAT'S WHY WE'RE ASKING FOR AN EXPLANATION.

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 11:38 AM

Mario, if you flunked sandbox it's because you were probably playing with the lumpy bits that smelled funny............

Spaw

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: MMario
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 11:32 AM

I must have flunked sandbox!

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: *daylia*
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 11:28 AM

MMario, it IS glaringly obvious, probably even to the average kindergarten child. If you disagree, fine. Go ahead and show how murder/suicide rates and war have nothing to do with cultural attitudes and predispositions toward violence. That should make a real twisted - but perhaps interesting - read!

While you're at it, maybe you could try to logically prove how the degree of sunburn people experience within a given country has absolutely nothing to do with the climate of that country, or what that country's people are "taught" about standard, acceptable behavior in the sunlight.

Anyway, real life calls so I won't be checking in here again for many hours, maybe not till tomorrow. Suggestion - let the thread die if the topic bothers you so much. I promise I won't refresh it! I've learned quite a bit from Don and a few others, and I've seen Ira's hypotheses demonstrated a number of times here already. That's what I was curious about, but you know what curiousity can do to a Cat!

daylia

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 11:28 AM

The failure to teach the responsibility of freedom and democracy as opposed to blind patriotism which has been growing larger and larger since WWII has not led to any significant increase in violence but has brought us to higher and higher levels of aggression in the name of a greater good. Sadly that "good" is also being defined by people who were students of that educational mistake. We are not in a position yet where this trend cannot be turned around, but as time passes and we follow this same course, it becomes unlikely that we will or that we'll even know how.

While it's true that from our earliest history we have used violent means, they were historically and truly the only means available. A new system and a new nation is never formed without violence (as opposed to a nation simply gaining independence). For any new nation to grow, it's growing pains are indeed filled with episodes of violence. But up until lately we understood that the violent methods were only needed to effect the changes and growth. We also, as a country, had no desire or need to force anyone else to come to the party. Our military, although large and often paraded in front of the world, worked from a defensive position unless we responded to repeated requests. We tried to stay out of WWI and we were under great pressure to enjoin WWII well before the Japanese gave us "reason" at Pearl Harbor.

Perhaps it is because we saw what we could do and perhaps it was because our educational and family structures began to change in the post WWII era that patriotism became synonymous with freedom and democracy. Perhaps because we began giving our rights away to corporations and the government for some built in "protections" that the violence became synonymous with aggresion. We are now seeing our own endgame being played out as we turnover more and more in the name of "security"................I dunno'.........

I do know that I am far more concerned about our third world eduational results than I am about any comparison of statistics relating to third world violence. Besides, statistics are such a waste as a method of argument. If 40% of all traffic fatalities involve alchohol, then 60% of all traffic fatalities involve sobriety......the obvious meaning of this is that you have a better chance of avoiding a fatal accident if you're drunk.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: Peg
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 11:28 AM

pshaw. everyone knows it's hot dogs...with brown mustard and raw onions...mmmm...

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: MMario
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 11:14 AM

Apple pie! APPLE PIE!

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: Amos
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 11:13 AM

Well, they both stem from the notion that the removal or eradication by force of an offending entity (in both cases obviously a badly misunderstood entity)is an acceptable solution. Both violence against others and violence against self are misplaced, neurotic solutions.

This has nothing to do with the question in the thread title. The simplicity is that the question posed is not, in fact, a question that can be answered, at least not in a meaningful way. It's just an exercise in gas-slinging. Everyone knows the American way is hamburgers.

A

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: Peg
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 11:02 AM

let's pretend it's NOT "glaringly obvious" to those of us who aren't rocket scientists like you, *daylia*...we'd like for you (once more!) to explain why YOU think this is the case...assuming we've read the statistics and still are scratching our heads trying to figure out how suicide *rates* are equated with violence....

and the beginning of your thread did not mention any statistics about "war"; you conveniently dragged that in later.

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: MMario
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 10:59 AM

no - it is not glaringly obvious - as multiple people have both pointed out to you and questioned you about.

Therefore - in order to answer your questions - we were asking WHY you consider those to be factors in a violence rating.

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: *daylia*
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 10:57 AM

MMario, with all due respect, by what logic do you propose that the significantly higher national suicide/homicide/violent crime rates in the US, or the huge difference between the size of the US military budget compared with that of the rest of the world, have nothing to do with whether or not there is a cultural predisposition towards war and violence within the US? It's glaringly obvious to see that these figures have EVERYTHING to do with the topic at hand, is it not?!?

We're talking about war and violence, and the incidence of it both within the US and as perpetrated on other countries by the US, and WHY the incidences of both are higher there than in the rest of the world (if they are, and that's what the figures indicate very clearly!) and then (hopefully) what the heck any of us can do about it!!

And what does any of that have to do with me personally, pray tell?

daylia

PS Suicide, regardless of the motives behind it, IS a violent act -- the most violent that can be perpetrated against the self.

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: Peg
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 10:33 AM

By the way, here are my original questions (which I am still waiting to have answered):


What does the US' military budget have to do with the violent behavior of its citizens?
What does suicide have to do with violence?

What point are you trying to make comparing the USA with "third world countries"?

How are you in any position to declare what the "majority" of Americans *think* with regard to the principles stated by the "Project for a New American Century"?


I also think your use of statistics is rather skewed. Domestic abuse in Russia is far higher than it is in the USA; clearly linked to the extremely high rates of alcoholism...why aren't you complaining about how violent the Russians are?

I seriously question that figure on emergency room visits...as far as domestic abuse victims making up greater numbers in emergency rooms than rapes, muggings and auto adccidents combined; where does this figure come from?

What is the National Women's Study? Never heard of it. How do they calculate their figures on rape victims?

I am not about to claim that America does not have a problem with violence (so please hold your snide "mutual causation" comments at bay, if you don't mind) but I would really prefer it if you'd actually offer some evidence that made some sense and showed some awareness of the statistics on violence in OTHER parts of the world.

What are the rape statistics for sub-Saharan Africa, for instance?

What are the spousal abuse figures in Scandinavia?

How many teenagers commit suicide in Japan each year? and is that figure connected to "violence"?

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: MMario
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 10:28 AM

daylia - basically we CANNOT answer your questions without having ours answered first. What relevence do you see to high suicide rates etcdetermining VIOLENCE of the culture?