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BS: UK millionaire fraud-guilty?

ard mhacha 15 Aug 03 - 02:48 PM
ard mhacha 15 Aug 03 - 04:10 AM
C-flat 11 Aug 03 - 08:58 AM
Stilly River Sage 10 Aug 03 - 10:53 PM
Bill D 10 Aug 03 - 10:21 PM
GUEST,Dale 10 Aug 03 - 10:10 PM
Bill D 10 Aug 03 - 09:57 PM
Joe Offer 10 Aug 03 - 09:54 PM
Bill D 10 Aug 03 - 09:52 PM
Bill D 10 Aug 03 - 09:49 PM
Joe Offer 10 Aug 03 - 09:46 PM
ard mhacha 05 May 03 - 01:33 PM
Hillheader 05 May 03 - 12:49 PM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 05 May 03 - 05:34 AM
GUEST,Jon 05 May 03 - 04:58 AM
Hillheader 05 May 03 - 04:22 AM
The Walrus 04 May 03 - 04:30 PM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 04 May 03 - 01:32 PM
Trevor 25 Apr 03 - 08:36 AM
JohnInKansas 25 Apr 03 - 04:42 AM
Ed. 24 Apr 03 - 03:07 PM
GUEST,Jon 24 Apr 03 - 02:48 PM
Firecat 24 Apr 03 - 02:35 PM
Teribus 24 Apr 03 - 02:55 AM
GUEST,Jon 24 Apr 03 - 02:14 AM
Firecat 23 Apr 03 - 06:59 PM
ard mhacha 23 Apr 03 - 02:35 PM
GUEST,Redhorse at work 23 Apr 03 - 08:38 AM
Beardy 23 Apr 03 - 06:36 AM
Dave the Gnome 22 Apr 03 - 06:34 PM
Ed. 22 Apr 03 - 04:21 PM
Ed. 22 Apr 03 - 04:15 PM
Strupag 22 Apr 03 - 03:13 PM
The Walrus 22 Apr 03 - 02:50 PM
Fiolar 22 Apr 03 - 09:11 AM
ard mhacha 22 Apr 03 - 08:44 AM
Penny S. 22 Apr 03 - 07:24 AM
Frug 22 Apr 03 - 06:50 AM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 22 Apr 03 - 05:55 AM
GUEST,Jon 22 Apr 03 - 04:42 AM
greg stephens 22 Apr 03 - 04:37 AM
Cluin 21 Apr 03 - 11:14 PM
Ebbie 21 Apr 03 - 10:08 PM
GUEST 21 Apr 03 - 09:43 PM
The Walrus 21 Apr 03 - 09:38 PM
Burke 21 Apr 03 - 09:33 PM
Ebbie 21 Apr 03 - 09:01 PM
bradfordian 21 Apr 03 - 08:13 PM
Burke 21 Apr 03 - 08:01 PM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 21 Apr 03 - 07:27 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: UK millionaire fraud-guilty?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 15 Aug 03 - 02:48 PM

I just posted the above this morning and already this important news has been relegated to the limbo department, is it not silly enough?.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK millionaire fraud-guilty?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 15 Aug 03 - 04:10 AM

Our Catters outside of the UK may not know this sad news, our old friendly, fraudster Major Ingram has since been kicked out of the British Army.
It seems the Brit Army was disgusted that a cheating cad like our friend Ingram should have no place, in such an upstanding outfit.

Two British Army Guardsmen James Fisher and Mark Wright, found guilty of the murder of Peter McBride [18], and having served part of their sentence, have been welcomed back to their regiment, their commanding officer describing the two murderers as "two fine soldiers".

Peter McBride was stopped and searched by the two soldiers and sent on his way, as he made his way down the street he was shot in the back.

Well after all, sure young McBride was only a Belfast Catholic. Ard Mhacha.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK millionaire fraud-guilty?
From: C-flat
Date: 11 Aug 03 - 08:58 AM

I've been checking all these "million" threads to see were the actual millionth one would come up.
Congratulations to Joe but especially to Mudcat!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK millionaire fraud-guilty?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Aug 03 - 10:53 PM

Congratulations, Joe! I was bouncing around looking for it--found 999,999 and 1,000,001. Thanks for giving us a clue in your impeachment thread. We'll just recall you instead. ;-)

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: UK millionaire fraud-guilty?
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Aug 03 - 10:21 PM

but Max said in this thread that #500,000 was really 503,016 or something..it's too much for me to figger out.

But Joe now has the offical message bearing #1,000,000

(I am reminded of an OLD Tonight show, when Johnny Carson read a headline about McDonald's selling their 5 billionth (or somesuch)hamburger,...."wow", he said, "just imagine...5 billion hamburgers! Why that must be...oh, maybe...a couple hundred pounds of meat!")

I wonder just how much 'meat' there is in 1,000,000 posts?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK millionaire fraud-guilty?
From: GUEST,Dale
Date: 10 Aug 03 - 10:10 PM

That's a point, Bill. From that point of view, we probably passed the big bunch of zeros a good long time ago. Don't forget that there are a few missing messages near the beginning.   Oh, come to think of it, the ## of deleted messages likely were never reassigned.

Dale ~~ whose first post was #4111 and who hardly ever posts to BS threads, but is making an exception for this one.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK millionaire fraud-guilty?
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Aug 03 - 09:57 PM

and you didn't even have to cheat and delete a few...*grin*


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Subject: RE: BS: UK millionaire fraud-guilty?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Aug 03 - 09:54 PM

Hey, I suppose there's justice in the fact that I was able to post the one-millionth message - in a thread about fraud!!!!
Aw, but it was fun.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: UK millionaire fraud-guilty?
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Aug 03 - 09:52 PM

it's a durn lucky think it came on Sunday night! On Thursday, you'd have had more of a problem...(I had planned to have 3 browser windows open, with typed messages ready in each, at 999997...but lost track..

Oh, well...*gearing up for 2nd million*


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Subject: RE: BS: UK millionaire fraud-guilty?
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Aug 03 - 09:49 PM

LOLOL...Joe...you are sneaky!...and I was late!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK millionaire fraud-guilty?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Aug 03 - 09:46 PM

If I time the posting of this message right, it may be the easiest million I ever made...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK millionaire fraud-guilty?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 05 May 03 - 01:33 PM

What a lovely chap, but I still say it`s the wife, he seems too stupid to do a con job. Ard Mhacha.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK millionaire fraud-guilty?
From: Hillheader
Date: 05 May 03 - 12:49 PM

The insurance companies would not take the case this far unless it was rock solid AND the monies paid out on policies was substantial. The usual course is simply to cancel (void) the policy and request repayment. The insurers do not want to be portrayed as reneging on their contract.

They will have copies of the original application forms which specifically asks for previous claims over (usually) a 5 year period.

All the insurers share claims history now so it is a simple check. Has a person claimed or a policy? What previous claims did they declare when applying for that policy? Does the number and value of the claims tally with details from all the other insurance companies?

They do not check every application (too costly) but if they are given grounds for suspicion then they will look back their records and take action if necessary.

There is talk that the Ingrams could sell their story for a substantial sum. They may need it.....

Davebhoy


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Subject: RE: BS: UK millionaire fraud-guilty?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 05 May 03 - 05:34 AM

I have to agree with Guest Jon, in that I feel it would be hard to find a jury that is not prejudiced towards him , as they will almost certainly have heard of his "millionaire trial".

"As for Ingram himself etc.....", it appears that 2 of his brother in laws have "done a runner" after and i quote "procuring money from a bank"!
they whole lot of them seem like a bunch of fiddling scumbags to me, and I hope they get what they deserve.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK millionaire fraud-guilty?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 05 May 03 - 04:58 AM

I don't see why a judge should have egg on his face. Surely he can only go by evidence presented at the trial?

I find it impossible to imagine that his lying about his past insurance history is a fabrication of the insurance companies but I would be interested to know how he can get a fair trial. Just about everyone knows of the "Millionaire" fraud and I suspect that would be enough to influence juries even if false charges were brought against him.

As for Ingram himself, I wonder what else will come to light...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK millionaire fraud-guilty?
From: Hillheader
Date: 05 May 03 - 04:22 AM

Careful Guys,

He is charged with not declaring previous claims where taking out the policies with Zurich and Direct Line. Previous history would affect the insurers decision on accepting him as a client and also the premium.

The irony is that given the latest charges go back to 1997, is is likely that the insurers investigations sparked by him being charged for "Millionaire". Where is his "previous good character" now. Do I see a judge searching for egg on his face???

Link to BBC Story

Davebhoy


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Subject: RE: BS: UK millionaire fraud-guilty?
From: The Walrus
Date: 04 May 03 - 04:30 PM

As I understood it (and I only caught a brief mention on the radio news), the loss/damage was genuine enough, but he claimed on two different insurance policies without telling either company that there was another company involved, thus making a profit for himself instead allowing the insurers to split the cost between them (strangely, in this sort of situation insurers never ask to split the premium between them).

Walrus


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Subject: RE: BS: UK millionaire fraud-guilty?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 04 May 03 - 01:32 PM

Major Ingram is due back in court relating to furthrer fraud charges, relating to offences he allegedly commited in 2001, namely that he fabricated a burglary at his home address, and made false insurance claims totalling £30,000.If he is found guilty it will be interesting to the judges pre-sentence speach, after his previous conviction for atempted fraud of £1,000,000 has been read out!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK millionaire fraud-guilty?
From: Trevor
Date: 25 Apr 03 - 08:36 AM

Guilty or not guilty. Can I have a 50:50 please. Atchoo!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK millionaire fraud-guilty?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 25 Apr 03 - 04:42 AM

Perhaps the judge shared my own opinion that the quiz shows are pretty much a con game themselves. There's lots of sympathy for a crook that cheats another cheater.(?)

We have a local boy who confessed several months ago to fraudulently obtaining $19,000,000 in "personal" loans by lying to the bank, and to scamming some investors by fraudulent misrepresentations in the sale of a rather large (undisclosed) amount in securities. He just got his "nth" continuance on his sentencing hearing because it was "inconvenient" to appear as scheduled, and he'll get a minimal sentence (my bet) because he's a "prominent local developer" (lots of friends) and a former "Olympic basketball player" (good for LOTS of friends around here).

The same issue (April 23) of my newsrag reports that the account executive (Scot Sullivan) who was probably most responsible for the $9,000,000,000 accounting fraud that sank WorldCom intends to use the defense that "everybody else does the same thing," and several apparently knowledgeable legal minds (non-sequitor?) are guessing that he'll be acquited using that defense. When you consider the number of pensions that "tanked" on this one, it comes close to being premeditated murder.

John


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Subject: RE: BS: UK millionaire fraud-guilty?
From: Ed.
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 03:07 PM

I'm with Jon on this. I don't think that trying to cheat on a quiz show is worse than rape.

But that's just my opinion...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK millionaire fraud-guilty?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 02:48 PM

Firecat, I don't believe either of us even tried to criticise you.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK millionaire fraud-guilty?
From: Firecat
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 02:35 PM

OK, OK. All I did was state my opinion. The one Jon put a link to was horrible, but I think that committing fraud is ne of the worst things you can do because you are betraying trus. If I'm going to get criticised for that, so what? It's my opinion.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK millionaire fraud-guilty?
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 02:55 AM

I think I would go along with GUEST Jon on this, Firecat.

As to the sentencing, one thing that would also have been taken into account would be the fact that the accused did not profit from the affair - in effect it was an attempted fraud.

Celador, have come out of it with loads of free publicity, plus the knowledge of how to avoid any attempts at repetition - the ammount of profit they make from the phone calls of "Millionaire" hopefuls can only be described as obscene at best.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK millionaire fraud-guilty?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 02:14 AM

Firecat,

I'd consider trying to cheat a quiz show like that a relatively minor fraud even if there is big money (and big temptations) at stake. I may stand alone but I think thier punishment is appropriate.

Drifting, but, if you want a fraud that I'd really like to see a long jail sentance for, try this. That is unbelievably callous.

Jon


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Subject: RE: BS: UK millionaire fraud-guilty?
From: Firecat
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 06:59 PM

I watched the programme on Monday night, and I'm now even more firmly convinced that they are guilty as charged.

I think the bit that really mucked it up was when Diana coughed on the Craig David question even when she had the cameras on her as the wife of the contestant, and she kept on looking at Tecwen Whittock even though she claimed that she didn't know him when she was in court.

I think the judges were too lenient, saying "We're not going to lock you up because we don't want your children to be deprived of parents." They've been convicted of fraud!!!!! And haven't the kids got other relatives for while the cheats were in prison?

What really gets me is that they plan to appeal. They'll never be granted one. Fraud is, in my opinion, one of the worst crimes you can commit, barring murder!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK millionaire fraud-guilty?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 02:35 PM

No matter what you say Walrus, it helps to have a privileged background.
Judges in England are more inclined to be lenient to an army Major than someone from the working class.
Remember the Guiness trial, the con-men fiddled millions but were released after a couple of years. Ard Mhacha.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK millionaire fraud-guilty?
From: GUEST,Redhorse at work
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 08:38 AM

Ok so who gets to star in the film? My nomination is Neil and Christine Hamilton, or is this type-casting?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK millionaire fraud-guilty?
From: Beardy
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 06:36 AM

A relevant question now must be; are they being paid for all the TV appearances they are currently making continuing to plead their 'innocence'. Enough appearances and selling their story to a newspaper will surely wipe out any debts. Aren't convicted criminals supposed to be unable to profit from their crimes?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK millionaire fraud-guilty?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 06:34 PM

I am not sure if he is guilty or not - surely the jury must be of the same opinion mustn't they? If there is any doubt, which based on the documentary there must be, the should have aquitted him shouldn't they?

Anyway, as I said, I'm not sure.

Can I phone a friend...

Cheers

Dave the Gnome


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Subject: RE: BS: UK millionaire fraud-guilty?
From: Ed.
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 04:21 PM

Oh yes,

And I feel really sorry for a man who has to live with a woman like that. She is a nasty piece of work...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK millionaire fraud-guilty?
From: Ed.
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 04:15 PM

I agree with pretty much what has been already said. Yes, the promramme did somewhat over egg the prosecution case when it didn't need to.

To me the single most compelling piece of evidence against him (although circumstantial) was the phone call that John has alluded to above.

When told that he wasn't going to get the prize due to 'irregularities' there was no shock, no questioning; 'what do you mean?'

Instead: "Oh my god! Of course I refute that"

This before the nature of any 'irregularity' had even been mentioned.

A fair cop, I think


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Subject: RE: BS: UK millionaire fraud-guilty?
From: Strupag
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 03:13 PM

Must agree with Walrus that,since the ITV showed us a filtered sound track, it's as if they were trying to convince the viewers.
With the performance and antics of the major we did not need extra convincing.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK millionaire fraud-guilty?
From: The Walrus
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 02:50 PM

John from Hull

True, the Great Train Robbers stole about £3M(?) and got 30 years, but that was forty years ago (when the pound was worth a little more, in real terms) and it WAS a robbery with violence (IIRC either the driver or guard, was assaulted and died some 15-18 months later as a result of his injuries).
At least the major and co didn't try thumping anyone.
I suspect that as a result of this 'little adventure' they will be a little 'strapped for cash', as in addition to their fines and legal costs, it was mentioned that they had some reasonable debts - I can't see their creditors waiting too long.

Regards

Walrus


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Subject: RE: BS: UK millionaire fraud-guilty?
From: Fiolar
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 09:11 AM

The judge suspended their sentences because the pair had some young children!!. Interesting that because many more folk have been thrown in clink for much less and who also have young children. The latest is that Celador who produce the show apparently are planning to make a movie of the affair. God give me strength.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK millionaire fraud-guilty?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 08:44 AM

John is right, guilty as hell, and how did the prat get away with a custodial sentence.
I did feel sorry for him after seeing his wife, she looked like she had hopped off the 8-30 broomstick.
The re-run of the show was pure comedy,and the dust up in the dressing room afterwards must have been worth a listen, apparently the good lady wife tongue-lashed the bumbling Major for almost blowing it with the last question.
His prompter coughed so much, it seemed like he had a bad dose of SARS. Ah, well sure he is an army major. Ard Mhacha.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK millionaire fraud-guilty?
From: Penny S.
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 07:24 AM

I'm not very impressed at an army major who doesn't know the name of a river in Northern Ireland - I would have thought that sort of thing was part of training? And if it isn't, why not? The cough with a disguised "No" was a convincing part of it, though I too would have liked to hear the coughs with the other background noise. Did his wife only cough when Tecwen didn't know the answer? Did Tecwen only cough at the crucial questions? (Stupid if they did, but I never thought being in Mensa ment you weren't stupid.) (There was an article by Jon Ronson in the Guardian, and apparently the major was wearing a Mensa badge during the trial.) And I'm not very impressed at the sort of winners they have, either. A descendant of a royal mistress, a man who already has a couple of million.. I can't help thinking these sort of prizes should go where there is need - except those sort of people wouldn't be able to afford the initial process.

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: UK millionaire fraud-guilty?
From: Frug
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 06:50 AM

I think what really did him was the way that he gravitated from an answer which he originally was convinced was correct to an answer which he had previously dismissed as incorrect with no intellectual reasoning. He was not the brightest and the way he ostensibly arrived at an answer appeared to be guesswork. I think that the programme illustrated the scam reasonably well and some of the coughed hints were laughably obvious. Presumably nobody had told Chris Tarrant about their suspicions although there were times when he appeared almost incredulous at the Majors attempts at rationalising his answers. No doubt in my mind that the guy was cheating...........Given the outcome of the investigation and trial did Tecwyn get to keep the grand that he subsequently won?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK millionaire fraud-guilty?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 05:55 AM

I have no doubt at all, that he cheated, the amazing thing was when the show producer phoned him and send "we think you cheated, and are not giving you the money", his reply was simply "oh, ok then, thanks for letting me know, goodbye"!
The other thing that suprised me in this case was the leniency of his sentence, Bruce Renolds, Buster Edwards and co, stole a £million, and were sentenced to 30 years in jail, this guy attempted to steal a million pounds and got a good telling off!
I hear he intends to appeal against the guilty verdict, if he thinks he has any chance of winning an appeal, he either has a very good legal team, or is a complete idiot!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK millionaire fraud-guilty?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 04:42 AM

I agree Walrus. I was not impressed with the "documentary" but still have no doubt they cheated.

For the record, I watched the program with my brother. He managed most of the questions but again got stuck on the Coronation Street character. There seems to be some belief that people should know everything about popular soaps and that questions on them are easy. I've no doubt that there are plenty of people around who could get tripped up on such a bit of trivia but answer seemingly far more "difficult" questions.

I wish I'd had the million pound question BTW. I can't guarantee I would have gambled that sort of money but I think I would. Perhaps surprisingly, like the major, I'd never heard of a googol. I do however know the meanings of the prefixis giga(10^9), mega(10^6) and nano(10^-9) and would have eliminated the words starting with them.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK millionaire fraud-guilty?
From: greg stephens
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 04:37 AM

The accompice's job was to assist if he knew the answers. Presumably the fraudulent major planned to drop out if no helpful coughs appeared and he didnt know the answer himself either. The accomplice could also be heard having whispered conversations with his neighbour checking the correct answers, before he did the coughing bit. Their trouble was, they hadnt practised enough, so it didnt look smooth, it was all too obvious the poor old major hadnt got a clue. And he got too greedy. If he'd copped out at £64,000 or whatever, he'd probably have got away with it. But the longer he went on, the higher the pile of evidence against him grew, so there was eventually no chance statistically of claiming the coughs were random. It was also very unlucky for them that the major hardly new any of the answers himself, so the coughing had to be deployed too often.If the major had been a quiz qhizz they might have got away with it.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK millionaire fraud-guilty?
From: Cluin
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 11:14 PM

Big deal.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK millionaire fraud-guilty?
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 10:08 PM

If he comes to the US, no doubt he will be lionized and in great demand. We don't seem to have a firm grasp on the difference between fame and notoriety.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK millionaire fraud-guilty?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 09:43 PM

What will this guy's current military status be now? Will there be a dishonorable discharge, a stipping of rank, or will he be sent to become a "hero" in the next US/Brit invasionary escapade?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK millionaire fraud-guilty?
From: The Walrus
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 09:38 PM

I must sat that I'd like to have heard the coughs in relation to the rest of the background noise (they were played as a seperate sound track over the video).
I've no doubt that he tried to cheat, but whether it was as blatent as the (Celador?) documentary made out is another matter.
And call me cynical, but isn't it convenient that EVERYBODY interviewed was certain they were cheating (interviewed after the trial).
As a matter of record, one member of staff thought it unusual that he should have used two lifelines at a fairly low stage and still made it up to the £1M question, well, I answered the same questions and got caught on the same 3 questions as the major (although I did have an idea about the river, I didn't know the soap opera question and the 'Craig David answer was a WAG).

2:30 and can't sleep.

Walrus


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Subject: RE: BS: UK millionaire fraud-guilty?
From: Burke
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 09:33 PM

According to this Currency Converter 1 GBP = 1.56303 USD. $2,400,000 vs. $1,563,030 is a not insignificant difference IMHO.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK millionaire fraud-guilty?
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 09:01 PM

katlaughing, Millionaire is still going, hosted by a woman now instead of Philbin. I don't watch it but have seen it listed.

Interesting that it was an army officer. Guess military cadet school honor training didn't take.

As kat said, how did the friend/aide know which were the right answers? It would still be cheating, of course, even if every answer the friend coughed had been incorrect, because consulting someone for their answer is limited, by rule.

I remember the $64,000 quiz show scandal; guess it's not surprising that someone now and again will try to cheat their way into the big money. Back in the 50s, $64,000 was a LOT of money- wonder if a million today is about equivalent?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK millionaire fraud-guilty?
From: bradfordian
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 08:13 PM

Ok burke be pedantic & tell me the exchange rate then!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK millionaire fraud-guilty?
From: Burke
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 08:01 PM

What I want to know is where bradfordian gets $2.40 for his Pound.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK millionaire fraud-guilty?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 07:27 PM

guilty, no doubt about it., and they shuld throw him in jail, for about 10 years., maybe more.john


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