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BS: Strange Displays of Faith

Tweed 22 Apr 03 - 08:33 PM
Ebbie 22 Apr 03 - 08:39 PM
Tweed 22 Apr 03 - 08:49 PM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Apr 03 - 08:49 PM
CarolC 22 Apr 03 - 08:51 PM
Tweed 22 Apr 03 - 08:53 PM
Ebbie 22 Apr 03 - 09:05 PM
Tweed 22 Apr 03 - 09:06 PM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Apr 03 - 09:26 PM
Tweed 22 Apr 03 - 10:58 PM
Little Hawk 23 Apr 03 - 12:05 AM
Bee-dubya-ell 23 Apr 03 - 01:27 AM
mack/misophist 23 Apr 03 - 01:29 AM
catspaw49 23 Apr 03 - 06:04 AM
gnu 23 Apr 03 - 06:14 AM
Tweed 23 Apr 03 - 06:38 AM
Micca 23 Apr 03 - 06:43 AM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Apr 03 - 08:13 AM
artbrooks 23 Apr 03 - 08:31 AM
Tweed 23 Apr 03 - 09:15 AM
catspaw49 23 Apr 03 - 09:41 AM
Amos 23 Apr 03 - 09:56 AM
wysiwyg 23 Apr 03 - 10:05 AM
Tweed 23 Apr 03 - 10:06 AM
Tweed 23 Apr 03 - 11:43 AM
wysiwyg 23 Apr 03 - 12:06 PM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Apr 03 - 12:09 PM
Amos 23 Apr 03 - 12:20 PM
Burke 23 Apr 03 - 12:27 PM
Amos 23 Apr 03 - 12:43 PM
Little Hawk 23 Apr 03 - 01:21 PM
Amos 23 Apr 03 - 01:43 PM
Tweed 23 Apr 03 - 01:54 PM
wysiwyg 23 Apr 03 - 02:11 PM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Apr 03 - 02:23 PM
Tweed 23 Apr 03 - 02:37 PM
catspaw49 23 Apr 03 - 02:44 PM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Apr 03 - 03:01 PM
Wolfgang 23 Apr 03 - 03:21 PM
Tweed 23 Apr 03 - 03:40 PM
Amos 23 Apr 03 - 03:43 PM
Ebbie 23 Apr 03 - 04:00 PM
Tweed 23 Apr 03 - 04:17 PM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Apr 03 - 04:31 PM
GUEST,Giac, no cookie 23 Apr 03 - 04:41 PM
SINSULL 23 Apr 03 - 05:16 PM
Tweed 23 Apr 03 - 05:20 PM
Rick Fielding 23 Apr 03 - 05:24 PM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Apr 03 - 05:24 PM
catspaw49 23 Apr 03 - 05:43 PM
SINSULL 23 Apr 03 - 06:13 PM
SINSULL 23 Apr 03 - 06:14 PM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Apr 03 - 06:54 PM
Amos 23 Apr 03 - 07:19 PM
wysiwyg 23 Apr 03 - 07:32 PM
catspaw49 23 Apr 03 - 07:38 PM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Apr 03 - 07:41 PM
Bobert 23 Apr 03 - 07:53 PM
Tweed 23 Apr 03 - 08:36 PM
Amos 23 Apr 03 - 08:37 PM
khandu 23 Apr 03 - 09:03 PM
Susan from California 23 Apr 03 - 11:01 PM
Susan from California 23 Apr 03 - 11:03 PM
artbrooks 23 Apr 03 - 11:09 PM
Amos 23 Apr 03 - 11:34 PM
Tweed 23 Apr 03 - 11:46 PM
Little Hawk 23 Apr 03 - 11:47 PM
wysiwyg 23 Apr 03 - 11:52 PM
Joe Offer 24 Apr 03 - 12:35 AM
Amos 24 Apr 03 - 12:43 AM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Apr 03 - 04:00 PM
Susan from California 24 Apr 03 - 05:53 PM
Amos 24 Apr 03 - 06:53 PM
Joe Offer 25 Apr 03 - 01:43 AM
Bill D 25 Apr 03 - 10:38 AM
Bill D 25 Apr 03 - 10:40 AM
Amos 25 Apr 03 - 10:48 AM
Bill D 25 Apr 03 - 11:12 AM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Apr 03 - 01:03 PM
Amos 25 Apr 03 - 01:44 PM
wysiwyg 25 Apr 03 - 02:12 PM
CarolC 25 Apr 03 - 02:57 PM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Apr 03 - 04:07 PM
Amos 25 Apr 03 - 04:11 PM
Tweed 25 Apr 03 - 11:03 PM
CarolC 25 Apr 03 - 11:47 PM
Tweed 26 Apr 03 - 12:24 AM
Ebbie 26 Apr 03 - 03:23 PM
bobad 25 Jul 06 - 07:19 PM
Bill D 25 Jul 06 - 08:52 PM
bobad 25 Jul 06 - 09:29 PM
Bill D 25 Jul 06 - 09:41 PM
JohnInKansas 25 Jul 06 - 10:07 PM
bobad 25 Jul 06 - 10:11 PM
Bill D 26 Jul 06 - 12:44 AM

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Subject: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: Tweed
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 08:33 PM

I saw them on one of the Cable news channels. Thousands and thousands of crazed people in the streets of a modern day city. Some were slicing their shaven heads with swords and others were seen vigorously beating themselves with bundles of chains.
I think that this was a fairly common practice in Western cultures during the Middle Ages but it seemed weird to watch it going on in a country that's been lately liberated and on the road to democracy.

I will risk the label of being traitorous scum and venture to say that them folks as a whole, don't have a snowball's chance in hell of ever becoming democracized (real word?)if they don't have any more sense than that. If I were an extremely religious person, I would probably suspect that the great Satan hizzelf has played a real good trick by convincing 'em that this is what the great and good God enjoys watching.

Yerz,
Tweed


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 08:39 PM

It happens in our culture too. I recall reading about 'mortifying' oneself by means ranging from hairshirts to whips to scarifying one's skin, widely practiced by wannabe ascetics.


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: Tweed
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 08:49 PM

Ya Ebbie, but surely not like over there. They behave as if they've all gone insane, and the crazier and louder the leaders, the more people follow after them...hmmmm.....also similar to our own culture!! Yow!!

Tweed


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 08:49 PM

I imagine it must look pretty strange looking at the kind of things people get up up to in our countries. Think of a big rock concert - people swaying around waving lights in the air, climbing on each others shoulders, weeping and hugging, stripping off...

Democracy means people deciding themselves how to run things, it doesn't mean behaving like Americans or British.

And if they are allowed to run things themselves in Iraq, it's probably going to be not-unlike Iran, and any carpetbaggers planning to make big bucks in the oil business had better look out.

And if they aren't going to be allowed to run themselves and an attempt is made to impose a pro-American government, there's likely to be a far more difficult war up ahead than the one that's winding down, and one that won't end in victory for the visiting team.


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 08:51 PM

And then of course there's always snake handling...

;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: Tweed
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 08:53 PM

But, a democracy would be government by all the people and not just by moolahs and their lackeys....wouldn't it? Woman would not be a part of such a religious government setup, therefore all the people would not have a say. Is my thinking and definition of democracy wrong?

Yerz,
Tweed


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 09:05 PM

Tweed, the same thing was true in ancient Greece. Everybody says they were the first democracy BUT women and slaves were powerless.


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: Tweed
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 09:06 PM

...and speaking of strange displays and Carol's snakes, here's an odd poem on that strange display.

Snake Handling at Mt. Zion Church
by John M. Valentine



The serpent rattles like dry seeds
In a gourd, coils in a dark box.
I've seen how grace stuns a man,
Drops him with a quick hand,

Splays him like lightning.
The eyes of a healer are feral,
The yellow translucence
Is cold as a snake.

I've seen the tangle of tongues
As they spit a broken language
Wet with froth and sibilants.
I've heard the holy yammer.

But now the long and writhing
Diamondback rises in rings,
Spreads a necklace head to head.
It flicks a reed, fumbling for speech.

The pink mouth opens,
Finds at last a sudden word.
The spirit sweats,
Latticework lightning branches

In the blood. Venom runs deep,
Rubs the bone, makes it shine.
They dance the Tarantella,
Their faces bright and blue as a soul.

They drop, go down to darkness.
What rises trembling then is pure,
Newborn, as they stumble like Lazarus
To the upper world of light.


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 09:26 PM

Women have votes in Iran, and no doubt they will in Iraq if it follows the same path.

But it doesn't seem likely they'll vote for the kind of people Bush and Rumsfield would like to see running the country. Or that they'll be willing to have American or British bases in their country.


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: Tweed
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 10:58 PM

...doesn't seem likely they'll vote for the kind of people Bush and Rumsfield would like to see..

Probably not McGrath of Harlow, and therefore under the guidance of their "spiritual leaders" the populace will subject themselves to the old beheadings, hand removals, stonings, mass murders etc. and we in the West will look on aghast saying how terrible etc. and all this will have been for nothing at all etc. and why don't they use lethal injection instead...et cetera et cetera...

On the other hand the Coalition has demonstrated an even Odder display of faith by committing troops and who knows how many missiles and Cadillac-bombs in the firm belief that these things will change the people into nice American-like Moslems, who will buy Nikes and enjoy Fox news after a hard day of shoveling up shattered concrete from their back yards.

I'm thinking that the Mt.Zion Snake Handlers habits are not so strange at all.
Neat poem,eh?


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 12:05 AM

Religious fundamentalism can be a very creepy and dangerous thing...whether it occurs among Christians in the "Bible Belt", among Wahabbis in Saudia Arabia, among the Taliban in Afghanistan, or wherever.

A simple rule I have about religions (and political parties). If they are very hot on the notion that their way is the ONLY way, and everyone else is evil...I avoid them like the plague.

There is such a thing as political fundamentalism too. Stalinist Russia, Mao's China, and the Nazi regime were three prime examples of it.

I kind of wonder about the Bush administration sometimes too.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 01:27 AM

You can bet that the new Iraqi Constitution that will be unveiled in a few months will have a strong separation of Church and State clause written into it. Whether or not the Iraqi people are going to pay any attention to it is doubtful.

Bruce


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: mack/misophist
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 01:29 AM

If there is any hope for Iraq, it lies in the fact that the Shiites seem to be much more demonstrative than the Wahabbists; which make them more likely to protest, in general. The impression I have is that Iran would be much more liberal if the Ayatollahs didn't control the courts and the police.


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 06:04 AM

Tweed, I think the solution here is obvious. Let's send 'em a few Patty Poopchute and Harry Hardtool dolls and launch a display in downtown Baghdad and other cities. Oughta' do the job............

BTW, Hawkster you say, "A simple rule I have about religions (and political parties). If they are very hot on the notion that their way is the ONLY way, and everyone else is evil...I avoid them like the plague.".......That's an idea you've expressed several times before and a notion you seem to be pretty hot about, so I'd advise you avoid yourself like the plague. Could be beneficial to you, not having to deal with an asshole every waking hour............



Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: gnu
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 06:14 AM

Cornflakes a little stale this morning, Spaw ?


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: Tweed
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 06:38 AM

Spaw!   I see it all now, like a vision.....
It's KARBALLA....it's the 4th of July......Cletus, Paw and the gang wander onto a military transport and end up in Iraq, mistaken for Sewer Treatment Plant Engineers....khandu as Penelope Rutledge playing Irish fiddletunes attempts a seduction of Sorcha in an Iraqi match factory...
Garrrrgghhhhhhhh.....Make it stop!! Make it stop!!! No Mas,
O, the horror..the horror

Yerz,
Tweed


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: Micca
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 06:43 AM

LH, I have posted this link before but it seems to apply to this, I have found a lot of "organised" religions fail MY criteria when examined by applying it, It is called The ABCDEF


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 08:13 AM

"...the new Iraqi Constitution that will be unveiled.." - coming down from White House Heaven on tablets of stone, no doubt?

"Fundamentalism" can mean different things, and it's a highly confusing label anyway. There's a lot of differences between, say, Southern Baptists, and Tridentine Catholics. The Taliban and Saudi style is quite a bit different from the Iranian model. That doesn't mean it's all sweetness and light in Iran by a long way, but it's wrong to imagine it as being a clone of Taliban Afghanistan.


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: artbrooks
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 08:31 AM

Doesn't Christianity, or at least as it is practiced in the West, include a large chunk of ritual cannibalism? What was that line about casting stones?


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: Tweed
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 09:15 AM

Yore right art! Somehow that old primitive custom of devouring one's enemy to absorb their strength was convoluted into devouring the Saviour to absorb righteousness.
We sure are an odd bunch of characters.
It's a wonder that we still know how to breathe.


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 09:41 AM

Y'all can just eat me.......

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: Amos
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 09:56 AM

Listening to Spaw, in its own way, is a pretty bizarre act of faith, too!

And Spaw, I didn't see any takers on your last offer. Maybe you should try a Reciprocal Dried Beaver Treaty, a new diplomatic arrangement invented by Daylia...

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: wysiwyg
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 10:05 AM

Where do we get off evaluating others' practices? Calling someone else's deepest personal expressions "strange" only demonstrates how little we know outside our own frame of reference, and how little we respect human beings.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: Tweed
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 10:06 AM

To prepare Spaw properly for the feast he would need to be assaulted with a lead pipe, stabbed, raped, consoled, and have a Glock emptied into him prior to roasting him with carrots and potatoes and dried beaver nuts. O,Glorious,Glory!! Let the world come and sup with us this night, that we may absorb copious quantities of his Holy Methane.

Pass the plate of diamondbacks, I'll have a little more please...

Yerz,
Tweed
(who just read the Violent Americans thread)


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: Tweed
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 11:43 AM

My Dere SweetieWYG,
I may be an ignorant know-nothing but when something strikes me as being "strange" I'll set off to find out more about what makes it tick. I believe it's alright to notice strange things going on around me az I usually end up learning something somehow or other from it.

Now you know, in yore heart of hearts, that if you came upon a group of local townsfolk beating themselves with chains or live water moccassins, the first darn thing that popped in yore mind would not be "Hmmm..nothing much going on today...", would it?
Nope, I'll bet you would find that a mighty odd departure and that would be normal and not disrespectful at all. Just a regular response to irregular events is all.

Yerz,
Tweed


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: wysiwyg
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 12:06 PM

Perhaps, Tweed, but I would hope that my response would be to get acquainted with THEM, not to bring my reaction to a public forum and label their actions as "strange." I would hope for curiosity and exploration. I would hope to take responsibility for my reaction and to respond with interest.

Of course I fall far short on this-- I found your thread "strange" and see how I reacted. Thus my use of the word "we" in my post. :~)

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 12:09 PM

"...when something strikes me as being "strange" I'll set off to find out more about what makes it tick."

Good idea. But that's not quite the same as announcing to all and sundry that tey are "crazed people" and that they "...they behave as if they've all gone insane...". Some people might think that putting it that way does have a touch of the "disrepectful" about it.

And there's no reason people can't carry on like that and be perfectly capable of operating a democratic system.

Actually, the way things work in this world, I suspect that this kind of event that's been televised could well catch on in some parts of the West. Isn't there a saying "Crazy enough for Califirnia"?


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: Amos
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 12:20 PM

I dunno, Kevin -- not a saying we use out here, I can tell you that much! :>)

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: Burke
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 12:27 PM

I haven't seen the pictures, but I was hearing the reports of the self-flagellation on the radio.

One thought I has was that I did not hear any reports last week about a similar practice that is still done in the Philippines. And yes, it was faily widespread during the Middle Ages. I have found that is was reported briefly in some places:

Published in Salt Lake Tribune - Indexed on Apr 20, 2003
Philippines: At least 13 Filipino devotees were nailed to wooden crosses north of Manila in an annual Good Friday re-enactment of Jesus Christ's crucifixion. The Lenten ritual is opposed by religious leaders in the Philippines -- Southeast Asia's largest predominantly Roman Catholic nation. The Catholic devotees, including at least three women, had their palms and feet nailed to the cross as a form of penance for sins, to pray for a sick relative or to fulfill a vow.

Published in The Korea Herald - Indexed on Apr 18, 2003
On Good Friday, blood will again flow in many parts of the Philippines as scores of flagellants whip themselves bloody and some even have themselves nailed to the cross. In fact, crucifixion and flagellation are becoming epidemic. In the village of San Pedro Cutud in Pampanga province, at least 12 penitents will be nailed to the cross Friday, and some 500 flagellants will flog themselves silly as thousands of foreign and local tourist gawk. Lesser crucifixions and flagellation will take place in other parts of the country, such as Cainta town outside Manila and Navotas in Metro Manila.

Other kinds of passion re-enactments still take place on Good Friday in many parts of the world of the world & go unremarked, although a google search turned up the one in Mexico City where "Some 4,500 actors performed Friday for hundreds of thousands of people in temperatures that reached into the 80s."


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: Amos
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 12:43 PM

I am terribly sorry if this offends anyone -- but this seems strange and crazed to me.

'Course I'm kinda iconoclastic. But still...

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 01:21 PM

LOL! Good advice, Spaw. I've tried to do just that, and once destroyed every mirror in the place, cos I kept encountering myself unexpectedly while trying to avoid myself like the plague.

Since I did that, though, I've been having a lot of bad luck...

Whenever I feel down though, I just think how lucky I am not to be you, and it cheers me right up! :-)

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: Amos
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 01:43 PM

LH, when you and Spaw finally reach the exalted awareness at which you discover you are both One, you will probably want to shoot your higher self....


:>)

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: Tweed
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 01:54 PM

...announcing to all and sundry that they are "crazed people" and that they "...they behave as if they've all gone insane...". Some people might think that putting it that way does have a touch of the "disrepectful" about it.

McGrath, you are either bein' PC to a fault or find the practice of self-flagellation to be normal and healthy exercise.
I am nearly positive that willfully inflicting physical damage to yoreself might be looked on as bein' insane behavior. If you see a rabid dog in a public place do you keep it to yourself and make no mention of it?

Tweed


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: wysiwyg
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 02:11 PM

Human beings are not rabid dogs, no matter how they may be acting. Treating human beings like human beings is not a matter of political correctness-- people are flexible and unpredictable, while polticial correctness is rigid and predictable. Apples and oranges.

Calling something PC just to dismiss it just displays the weakness of one's own position.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 02:23 PM

Nothing to do with "PC". I just thought there's a certain disparity between those two ways of looking at it, Tweed. Calling out "Look at those crazy people" isn't quite the same as saying "...when something strikes me as being 'strange' I'll set off to find out more about what makes it tick."

"That certainly looks crazy to me, but I'd really like to know what it's all about" - now that brings the two together. And that is very likely your considered stance.

Wilfully inflicting physical damage on yourself is actually a pretty widely practiced thing in many cultures. Look at all those people in our countries walking around with bits of metal stuck through various parts of their anatomy, or with extensive tattoos. People beating each other to a pulp while enormous audiences watch. Bodybuilders...

We're a pretty weird bunch generally, we humans. Sometimes it takes a glimpse of some other cultures' weirdness to bring it home, but it's not just them, it's us as well.


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: Tweed
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 02:37 PM

What the hell position are you talkin' about WYSI? They appeared to have lost their minds, on worldwide television and I said so. If I kept that stuff bottled up inside of me they'd have to haul me off to the Neil Young Institute for observation and study. My point bein' that we've wasted a load of humans in the last 30 days for no reason than to watch Iraq be taken back by different sadistic crazy peoples.

And I agree with you....rabid dogs are much more preferable to rabid humans and the two should never be compared.   

Yerz,
Tweed


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 02:44 PM

Never thought i'd be saying this but when Wizzy says, "people are flexible and unpredictable, while polticial correctness is rigid and predictable.".....Well then, it seems as though politically correct would lead to better sex.

Geez, you are all sure takin' the piss out of Ol' Tweed here just because he says some folks are pretty well fucked up. Personally I think it's a fine attitude as I think me, you, and the entire world is pretty well fucked up. It is both the bedrock and touchstone of our existence. If that isn't true than how can you account for Bush being President?

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 03:01 PM

"...when something strikes me as being "strange" I'll set off to find out more about what makes it tick."

"They appeared to have lost their minds, on worldwide television and I said so."

Not taking the piss out of Tweedy, just pointing out a slight inconsistency.

What's a little blood between friends? These guys seemed to be having a great time, doing their thing, after a long time when they weren't able to. And getting the message across to a watching world that they aren't going to roll over and play, and do what these foreigners want them to do, and act all respectful towards the cronies of Bush and Blair.


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: Wolfgang
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 03:21 PM

I'm sometimes nasty-minded and so I pondered why this thread did get so different responses (from partly the same people) from the recent (and an older) thread about the stoning in Nigeria.

None of the usual 'we too' posts (though that would have been true in that case as well, historically), no advices to pay more respect to other cultures, no trying to make us understand the procedure of stoning as deepest personal expressions of a faith.

No, don't tell me that one difference. I know that in one case the hurt is inflicted to oneself and in another to some other person until she is dead. But those involved in the procedure are convinced that they only do what their religion tells them. And still we all (all?) insist that stoning is wrong.

I guess all of us have a limit from which on they are not willing any longer to treat a certain religious practise here or abroad with respect (stoning, female castration,...). For some of us this limit is reached somewhat earlier than for others. That's all.


Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: Tweed
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 03:40 PM

O.....it's my own damn fault az I've brought this abuse and upon myself. I give up and am hereby declared all pissed out...The rabid pitbulls WYSI and McGrath have ripped kidneys, spleen and all from my tortured shell of a body and only because I hab shared my wonderment of the world and my fellow critchurs out loud.

I am beaten, bitten, scorned and rebuked....but not pissed off;~)

Yerz,
Tweed


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: Amos
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 03:43 PM

Well, Tweed, as it happens, I agree witchoo.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: Ebbie
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 04:00 PM

See, Tweed? Self-flagellation!


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: Tweed
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 04:17 PM

LOL!! I've had an ephlipany!! Thanks Ebbie.


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 04:31 PM

"I know that in one case the hurt is inflicted to oneself and in another to some other person until she is dead."   

That is the difference, Wolfgang, as you say, and that makes all the difference. It's like the difference between going on a fast or even a hunger strike, and starving another person. It's like the difference between doing hard work yourself, and having a slave do it for you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: GUEST,Giac, no cookie
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 04:41 PM

I saw a rabid horse once. It bit a chunk out of its side. It died.

Before it died, it bit its owner. He died.

All things taken into account though, each was just as dead.

Although I was only four, I learned a lesson for a lifetime: stay away from beings that are rabid.

And I'm not gonna "whup" myself, nor get near others so engaged. But that's just MY personal belief.


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: SINSULL
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 05:16 PM

There is a small neighborhood in Buffalo made up of mostly devout Polish Roman Catholics. In WWI or WWII (I forget which) no young man from that town died in combat. They attributed their luck to the Blessed Virgin and began an annual ritual during which the women of the area would walk on their knees to the local church and pin offerings of money on the dressed statue of the Virgin. Fine.

In time and possibly due to the age of the participants, they walked on bare feet instead of knees and then on socked feet. Now here is where it gets weird. Upon arriving at the church, they throw the dirty socks at the statue as an offering in adsdition to kcash contributions.

I find this strange indeed and refrained from voting any of these people into a position of power.

Tweed, I have a cat'n nine tails from our monthly shanty sing. One for you and one for me...OK?


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: Tweed
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 05:20 PM

That sounds great Sins. I'll bring the bag of snakes and the beers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 05:24 PM

Sins, there's been a variation of that happening in Toronto for many many years in the Portugese community. A statue of the Virgin mary is paraded around for a few hours, with lotsa followers (many barefoot) and bills (of money) get pinned to the float. It ends up disappearing into the Cathedral.....and I guess God grabs the money!

Perfectly logical to me!

P.S. I agree with Susan that when folks use the 'P.C." term, it usually means they've run out of argument.

Cheers

Rick


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 05:24 PM

Can't say that seems particularly strange to me, Sinsull, any more than the Croagh Patrick or Lough Derg pilgrimages.


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 05:43 PM

Well, I guess you're just an understanding sort of guy Kevin!

I understand that the Church of Evangelical Hollering and Shouting Mohunkers had such a great time floppin' around all over the place and tongue talkin' and I don't know what all, that they've decided to incorporate the "Ascension of the Ball Blasting Jesus by the Flaming Asshole Marys" as a part of their yearly Easter ritual. Why is truth often so much stranger than fiction?

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: SINSULL
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 06:13 PM

Pass the cat'n nine tails to Spaw. NOW!


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: SINSULL
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 06:14 PM

Didn't mean to ignore you, McG. I am not familiar with those pilgrimages. Do they throw dirty laundry at the the saint they are honoring too?


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 06:54 PM

Walking barefoot and enduring some discomfort are very much part of them, as with many pilgrimages.

I think, if you talked to those Poles, they would explain what was going on in rather different terms. It's common enough in many places to leave tokens at the end of a pilgrimnages at a shrine - very often the footwear which was worn, as a kind of representation of the hardship involved. More typically shoes than socks, but that's not a significant difference.

I'd be inclined to doubt if the picture of a kind of Aunt Sally sock chucking competition is actually an accurate depiction of what takes place.


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: Amos
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 07:19 PM

My god -- Spaw has subtly altered the entire future of human religion, and his humorous and fictional impulse will pass from here into the world -- much like his other emissions -- and be altered, taken out of context and gradualy be exagerrated into a national, and then a world-wide movement -- the Methane Movement -- which will be responsible, indirectly, for the major religious wars which, in 2098, bring down civilization as we know it between Clanston, Ohio, and Fumbleton, Illinois, inclusive.

It's nice to know that someone from these hallowed cyber-halls has made a real difference....


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: wysiwyg
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 07:32 PM

Scuse me, I gotta go lick my balls some then git back to maulin' some real-live babies, now I've had my tweedy appetizer.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 07:38 PM

Next time I go on a pilgrimage with you McGrath, please remember....

"the footwear which was worn, as a kind of representation of the hardship involved. More typically shoes than socks, but that's not a significant difference."

....as I'll be wearing the $150.00 Nikes and you can have the pair of tube socks!

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 07:41 PM

I'm a brown lace-up-boot man myself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 07:53 PM

See, Tweezer, I told ya' that you was gonna get a butt kickin' with this one an' looks like frrom the looks of things their ain't much T-butt left fir kicking.

But, hey, I don't think you are beyond redemption. Ol' Rev. Bobert will get you all Baptertized and Confessorated in der Mississippi in a few weeks when we're doing the Handy's and all will be well.

Yeah, there's a certain appeal to jump on folks that ain't like us 'cause they, ahhh, ain't like us. Hey, I cornfess mah ownself to not understandin' a lot of things but, hey, if they ain't beatin my sorry butt with no chains then its their lumps, not mine.

Now I reckon a lot of it has to do with perspective, too. I mean, these folks din't grow up with McDonalds on every corner...

Ahhh, nevermind...

The Boberdz


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: Tweed
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 08:36 PM

Thanky Brother Boberdzdrz, I'm tryin' to get my breathin' back to normal after witnessin' WYSI licking her nuts!

I am sorta thinking thet ol' Kevin haz gone over the edge and may need a good duct taping to lighten hiz case ob the vapours summat az he is certainly displaying some insane and crazy behabiours on my ass this day. Dang, I have never been this summarily dissed since....day before yesterday at least... You have got the way with the words McGrath!

Yerz,
Tweed


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: Amos
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 08:37 PM

Mob psychology is an interesting thing all right -- why I know one backwards country where you can walk all over town at night and not find a soul to have a talk with because they are all kneeling, lying or sitting in front a glowing white rectangular light which they worship there, moaning and carrying on., It ruins thier eyesight. It destroys their brains. It takes up all their free time. It hypnotizes their children and undermines their social skills. Yet, they do not stop!

Now, I ask you -- isn't that kinda crazy??

Kinda weird?

Self-destructive?

Yep, it sure is.

What gets into these people?


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: khandu
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 09:03 PM

All y'all come across as strange and weird to me. That's why I keep comin' back! If you all were like me, then I'd have no reason to hang around you at all...that would be some strange form of masturbation. And my type of masturbation ain't strange at all...well, not to me, anyhow!

Kk


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: Susan from California
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 11:01 PM

I have to say, I found the rhythm of the chest pounding and the sort of dance of the chain whipping to be somewhat hypnotic. I find the culture to be darned fascinating. But if you want to talk weird, some Christians believe that bread and grape juice/wine actually change into blood and flesh, and then they eat it!


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: Susan from California
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 11:03 PM

BTW, I was worried about spelling rhythm properly and I forgot to put a smiley face in there re the transfiguration stuff :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: artbrooks
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 11:09 PM

Hummmmm...having spent some little time in that part of the world, what makes any of you think that there is any civilization between Clanston, Ohio, and Fumbleton, Illinois?


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: Amos
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 11:34 PM

Art:

ROTFLMAO -- ya got me fair there!!    Maybe -- not for the first time -- the hinge of civilization's history hangs on an invisible thread!! LOL!


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: Tweed
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 11:46 PM

artbrooks, I was raised in that State of darkness and forboding which lies between Ohio and Illinois and am proof positive of the high degree of civilization that grew along the Brandywine and Big Blue Rivers.   
There were strange displays there also, but mostly involved klan folk marching around the courthouse when black people got a change of venue to our county, which had not been home to any blacks since the civil war days somehow or other. My friends and I were longhairs and it was our custom to holler insults at the whitesheets.
The response from them was of course the line from a Johnny Cash song popular in those days,
"Yore name is Sue,...How do you do...You gonna die!"

Crazed and insane behavior....right there in the cradle of Midwestern Culture! Neither side would have had any business running a nation or even the county successfully. I'm glad none of us ran for any office, but apparently others around the country who suffered from these diverse ailments have wormed their way into high places since then....and I would point to the Kingdom of Mississippi az proof of that, but would not want to wake the slumbering monarch khandoo, who is much spent from his exertions of late.


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 11:47 PM

"Fumbleton", Illinois??? Omigod. How about Schyttsville, Wyoming?


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: wysiwyg
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 11:52 PM

Sure! Goes with Diocese of BuFu, PA!

~S~


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 12:35 AM

It worries me a lot when religion expresses itself in some form of violence. Seems to happen in just about every religion, and I can't understand why. Oftentimes, it's not an official action of the religious group - but it happens, nonetheless.
Maybe every group has a lunatic fringe, and we shouldn't judge the entire group by the actions of part of it.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: Amos
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 12:43 AM

Maybe every group has a lunatic fringe, and we shouldn't judge the entire group by the actions of part of it.

Right ... well... there ya go, huh? I mean, there you have it!! Right? Good point, Joe!

Actually, I haven't seen as much violence from some religions as others. At the low end of the scale, I think, are Buddhists (except for occasional self-immolation), Quakers, Sufis, and maybe the Chrisian Scientists and Simonologists. At the high end are the Church of Rome, the Wahabbi Muslims, various other Christian sects and Communists. These are wild-ass guesses, so please don't quibble with them.

Someone oughta do a study. Come up with some broad, condemnatory statistics. Then we could really start pointin' fingers 'round here... :>)

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 04:00 PM

I think Richard Nixon would have counted as the lunatic fringe of Quakers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: Susan from California
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 05:53 PM

I think Nixon was not from the "silent meeting" branch of Quakers. Silent Meeting Quakers are what most of us think of when we think about The Society of Friends.


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: Amos
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 06:53 PM

Spaw:

You ask, "Why is truth so much stranger than fiction?", and I have often pondered this observation myself. But in your case I have to make an exception!!


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Apr 03 - 01:43 AM

Well, Amos, I suppose it's correct that organizations that are pacifist by definition, are generally non-violent. They're also usually very small organizations, and not particularly diverse.
But if we're talking about large, diverse organizations, particularly religious organizations, there will be some fringe groups in the organization who will use violence in some way as an expression of their faith.
I don't think it was fair of you to single out particular creeds like you did. The ones you listed certainly have examples of violent faith expression in fringe groups - but I think that almost all large religious organizations have the same phenomenon (unless you define away those adherants whose conduct you consider unacceptable).
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Apr 03 - 10:38 AM

" there will be some fringe groups in the organization who will use violence in some way as an expression of their faith."

...but what if the gentler, pacifist end of the spectrum IS the 'fringe group'?..The other end of the spectrum certainly considers that to be true. Lacking any daily confirmation from a Supreme Being..(clouds forming "STOP THAT!" in big letters, or a thunderous voice proclaiming.."THIS group are wimps!")...how do we know what form of 'confirming the faith' the diety(s) prefer?

Many ponderous tomes have been penned analyzing and dissecting the "rules", but we still have 17,421 varieties of opinion. (17,422..the Zen Snake Handlers were just registered in Idaho yesterday).

Perhaps you are familar with Pascals Wager, in which he argues that it is more prudent to believe than not, as you lose nothing if you do, but risk eternal fire if you don't.

Nice idea, but one philosopher, Walter Kaufmann, pointed out that Pascal simply didn't think to list other possibilities. What if there is a Supreme Being with a strange sense of humor? What if HE doesn't LIKE being comsumed at mass? What if he TRULY gave us free will, and does not care what we do? What if.........

The point is, Pentacostal Snake Handlers believe in what they are doing, as do chain-wielding Muslims and street corner preachers. And have you ever been accosted by Jews for Jesus? I have. Or told that Heaven DOES exist, but that, like a gated community, there is a limited amount of space?

Well...all that being said, I do fret about the louder, more pugnacious displays of 'faith', but I suspect that they are merely manifestations of human nature (read "Testosterone")in a religious setting....but of course, I can't prove my suspicion, any more than a bleeding Muslim with a flail, or a bleeding Catholic who has had himself crucified to demonstrate his faith.....

...it just goes on, and on, and on.....with everyone proclaiming, "God is on our side!"

I do like the poster which proclaims, "Lord, please protect me from your followers"


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Apr 03 - 10:40 AM

(that being said, I am going off in the woods for 2 days to sing and commune with Nature...so I am not ignoring any possible answers to my grumbling...just missing them)


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: Amos
Date: 25 Apr 03 - 10:48 AM

Dang, Bill, just when I was warming up to dump a mess o' revealed truth on you!! You wuss!

Joe, it wasn't fair, it was just grabbing dustbunnies outta my head from a quick scan. (I borrowed that phrase, I love it.) You are right that it is often the lunatic fringe that discolors the whole group. SOme folks just lose perspective, I guess...one of the things religion is famous for. I dunno, if the research was done, whether there would be any correlation between denominations and records of abuse or violence, and even if there were, I have no idea what it would mean. Every religous war has been completely justified, according to its participants. Gott Mit Uns and all that. I don't think it would lead anywhere.

A

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Apr 03 - 11:12 AM

I got, like, 2 hours before we leave Amos, if you can condense "revealed truth" into that time frame *grin*...but since you are sorta agreeing with me, in a kinder, gentler way, I doubt it would add TOO much.

I am reminded AGAIN of Nietzsche (in Zarathrustra) paraphrasing an old woman.."Of course it was a just war..my son died in it."


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Apr 03 - 01:03 PM

True enough what Bill pointed out. Often enough it's the forces of hate and violence and repression which are the mainstream, and the voices of friendship and reconciliation which are "the lunatic fringe".

St Francis and his followers, George Fox and the Quakers, Rachel Corrie and the other peace activists...

The thing is there are always going to be some good people on "the other side" and some bad people on "our side". You can't afford to get sucked into worrying too much about how the numbers work out, when you are deciding where you stand on any issue.


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: Amos
Date: 25 Apr 03 - 01:44 PM

Odd proposition: if we were actually endowed with free will, then why are most of our major religions running around trying to suck up the approval of the Almighty? Especially if "He" created it as truly free, as a gleeful impulse, an exercise in self-entertainment on the most cosmic scale?

That's like living your whole life trying to earn the approval of a grandfather who died when you were six. Not that folks don't do that to themselves, sure...but is it a rational course? I mean if there's no trust fund?


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: wysiwyg
Date: 25 Apr 03 - 02:12 PM

Excuse me for butting in, but so far, nothing I have seen posted here has moved me to try to share, from my own understanding, what people may be experiencing in these actions, or why they may do them. I do see several people posting who have at various times said they wanted to understand, in private communications, what they do not understand about what people experience.... and who, time after time, really chose debate, ridicule, and attempted de-evangelization over the possibility of understanding.

My friends, if you really wanted to understand, by now you could have made it your business to understand. This kind of communication.... it just makes one want to be a careful steward of the energy it would take to respond to any of this seriously and with some care. Is that what you want?

OK, go back to it, that's all I wanted to say.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Apr 03 - 02:57 PM

The idea of snake handling is actually very compatible with the concepts of Zen, but before handling the snake, one would want to ask its permission. If it was amenable to the idea, it would allow itself to be handled without doing any harm to the handler. It would be very un-Zenlike to handle snakes without their permission.


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Apr 03 - 04:07 PM

To explain what is actually going you'd really need someone who understands, because they are part of the religious tradition within which it takes place. We can try to do that, maybe, for some of the strange ways our own particular tradition, whatever that may be, can throw up, but there's a real limit to how far we can, when we trespass beyond that.

There are points of similarity here with things that happen within other "faith communities", including the fact that within any expression of populist religious fervour there are going to be some people whose involvement is a lot more extreme than others, and that can distort our understanding of what is actually taking place.

The truth is, religion is dangerous. So is electricity. I remember reading once about a local legislature somewhere which voted to abolish electricity. There've been plenty of legislatures which, in their day, have voted to abolish religion. About as effective in both cases.


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: Amos
Date: 25 Apr 03 - 04:11 PM

Well, you're right, Wyzzy -- I see some of these behaviors from the outside, and obviosuly they are being generated by an experience and a world view that I do not understand. And it is NOT flor lack of trying. I won't go into it any further, as it just leads to a box canyon.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: Tweed
Date: 25 Apr 03 - 11:03 PM

All I know iz that if you poke the snake, it will bite you....
Ef you bomb Iraqis til they iz free and they bite you later on down the road, then that iz perdy normal behaviour, even if they whup themselfs wif chains and cut they heads wif the swords.

Yerz,
Lao Tzweed

Carolthesailor, don't let nobobby tell you thet ef you talk to the snake he won't strike. That iz one big load of sh*t! If he takes it in hiz head to bite you, there ain't no talkin' him out ob it!


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Apr 03 - 11:47 PM

So how's that snake bite healing for you, Tweed? Doing ok?

;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: Tweed
Date: 26 Apr 03 - 12:24 AM

I am so glad you hab axed that Mz.Sailor, and thanky fore yore consern.
Soon after being attacked mos vial by the bag o'diamondbacks and a couple of danged rabid, know-it-all pitbulls I went to see an old Miccosukkee root woman an she tole me to mek a poultiz from fresh bullshit and I did and thet is the reason how I am here and good as new.
An' I owe it all to khandoos and Little Hawg's gud frend Joe Offer for dividing up this extry fine forum an' mekin' it easy to locate all the frash bullshit I will ever have need of!   

Yes, it were a Strange Display ob Faith what caused me to slather up wif muck mos' foul, but I am healedup and ready to take my place az interim Mayor of Bagdad.

Yerz,
Tweedzrzd


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Apr 03 - 03:23 PM

The idea of snake handling is actually very compatible with the concepts of Zen, but before handling the snake, one would want to ask its permission. If it was amenable to the idea, it would allow itself to be handled without doing any harm to the handler. It would be very un-Zenlike to handle snakes without their permission.

Carol, that's interesting. In southeastern Alaska, the Tlingit tribes do the same thing.

To this day, when they go fishing or hunting, they thank their potential prey for providing themselves for their brothers' sustenance and ask for their assistance.

I don't imagine that Zen has been traditionally known or taught in Alaska but the same respect for other beings is very evident.


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: bobad
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 07:19 PM

God appears on crocodile


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 08:52 PM

ummmm...looks like 'hid' to me. But you see what you wanna see.


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: bobad
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 09:29 PM

I dunno Bill, I see it pretty clearly myself. Maybe like the guy who first spotted it you need to "toss down a few beers."


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 09:41 PM

I see, I see...my wife just pointed out to me that it is NOT black letters on a white background!

well, that sure proves that...............nature is capricious.


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 10:07 PM

C'mon guys. Look at the large picture of the 'gator. The letters are only partly formed so you have to speculate about whether the "U" will get closed into an "O" or whether the "D" (?) at the end will get rounded off.

Right now, it doesn't say "GOD," it says "GUN."

'Course that's a prettty young 'gator, so he(?) can prob'ly say a lot more when he's got more ad space on his growed up sidwalls.

John


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: bobad
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 10:11 PM

Well JiK, I guess you won't be on the bus when the rapture comes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Strange Displays of Faith
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 12:44 AM

besides...This is what it means

or this


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