St George's Day

Subject: RE: St George's Day
From: ooh-aah
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 08:18 AM

Hang on, I rather LIKE billowing Union Jacks and busby soldiers and the monarchy and pomp. Why can't we have both these, and those other things? If we don't the racists will, and they're too good for them.

Subject: RE: St George's Day
From: red max
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 05:55 AM

I've created a monster with this thread. All I wanted was to reflect on our lack of musical identity. On the theme of patriotism I found this quote in the Independent that articulates how I feel better than any words I can muster...

"Englanders have many other qualities to admire – not, as Dennis Potter said, the imperial identity, or the flags, drums and trumpets, or 'billowing Union jacks and busby soldiers and the monarchy and pomp', but the bravery and steadfastness, the creativity and industriousness, the endless line of rebels with a cause, the respect for individuality and eccentricity, the institutions of democracy and law, and most of all the insatiable cultural promiscuity"

Some of the previous Guest contributions could easily have been penned by the great Henry Root. We'll not have that!

Subject: RE: St George's Day
From: ooh-aah
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 05:01 AM

Jim Clark my dear old bean, I think I hit a nerve! Cheer up, having nerves could lead to your developing a brain.
Oh yes, I nearly forgot....ha ha.

Subject: RE: St George's Day
From: Penny S.
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 03:42 PM

I go for Bede,and have done so on the BBC Radio 4 Today programme site - Augustine was not very considerate to the existing Christians here.

Penny

Subject: RE: St George's Day
From: GUEST,dew drop
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 01:50 PM

What about St Augustine or St Bede as alternative patron saints?

Dylan's I dreamed I Saw St Augustine could be our National Anthem!

Subject: RE: St George's Day
From: Schantieman
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 12:57 PM

- and the day he died. Now there's coincidence.

S

Subject: RE: St George's Day
From: Nemesis
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 12:44 PM

BTW 23 April is also Shakespeare's birthday

Subject: RE: St George's Day
From: John J
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 10:36 AM

Whoopee, another St Georges Day!

JJ

Subject: RE: St George's Day
From: HuwG
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 09:45 AM

El Greko; good post re the origins of St. George. I have heard him described as being from Cappadocia, an area near present-day Ankara. This doesn't clarify his racial origins; he could be Greek, Roman, Armenian, Farsi or whatever.

ooh-aah Henry VII, a "tight-fisted, humourless mass-murderer" ? Tight-fisted; well, certainly financially prudent, but then could could accuse our beloved Chancellor of the Exchequer, Gordon Brown, of meanness on the same ground. Humourless ? Well, not renowned for his sparkling wit, I grant you. But mass-murderer ? As with his predecessors on the throne, he appears to have adopted a policy towards his foes of, "Kill the nobles, spare the commons!". The exception would be the battle of Stoke (1487) when his army did inflict severe casualties on the rebels led by John de la Pole, Earl of Lincoln (with Lambert Simnel as figurehead pretender to the throne).

Gareth and Raedwulf, Oliver Warner's book, "Famous Welsh battles", lists several hundred Welsh bowmen as being attached to officers of the Royal household, such as the "Bailiff Itinerant". (Possibly many of these were Welshmen such as Davy Gam who had earlier opposed Glyndwr). No doubt there were others in the contingents of Marcher lords with the army.

As for Crecy, many of the Welshmen present were spear- or javelin-wielding light infantry, rather than bowmen. According to Froissart, some or all of them broke ranks to despatch wounded French knights, thereby losing many chances of rich ransom.

I don't know much about the yew for the English longbow, but Giraldus Cambrensis describes the earlier short Welsh bow as being of rough unpolished elm. It was still a powerful weapon; Giraldus cites several examples of its arrows penetrating full armour, or the oak doors of a castle.

Subject: RE: St George's Day
From: GUEST,Jim Clark..London.England
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 06:43 AM

ooh-aah

You are so very tabloid...God bless ooh-aah...ooh-aah for king....ooh-aah the wise one...ooh-aah the great thinker..ooh-aah will lead us to the promised land...ooh-aah a case study in moronic reasoning..ha ha..

Subject: RE: St George's Day
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 06:26 AM

Thanks mexican, I'd forgotten that.

Subject: RE: St George's Day
From: mexican
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 06:23 AM

Well Guest Alan, St Patrick's day was in fact moved to the 18th last year because it fell on a sunday. Although the majority of media controlled guinness swillers never noticed. These saint days are designated by the Catholic church as feast days, If they fall on Sunday or any other of Christ's days they are usually moved.

Subject: RE: St George's Day
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 05:49 AM

Is it today?

According to the Churches Rules a major festival always takes presidence over a minor one (the minor one being postponed to the following week). That being so, with last week being Easter week, St Goerge's Day will be this week, but I'm not sure if it's today or Wednesday.
I know that some will insist that it can only be celebrated on the 23rd, but I think it's great because I get the chance to do it all over again.

But can you imagine them beinig allowed to move St Patrick's Day?

Subject: RE: St George's Day
From: GUEST,Penny S.
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 05:39 AM

Actually, today is St George's day, because no saint can be celebrated in the week after Easter. So it is no publicised all over the radio.

Subject: RE: St George's Day
From: ooh-aah
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 03:42 AM

Actually, I should have put 'Gods save the Queen', because like Raedwulf, I'm an English Heathen. Waes Hael Raedwulf!

Subject: RE: St George's Day
From: ooh-aah
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 03:40 AM

Nice one Loiner - I'm always amused by the way racists wankers can't spell, and that's the TROOF!. And by the way they attack the physical appearance of other people when they are invariably some of the ugliest bastards ever to crawl out from under a rock. The fact is the poor babies can't get a girlfriend, which is why they are all embitttered and have all that surplus energy left over after drinking lager, collecting unemployment benefits and shouting.
   At the same time I would say that legitimate pride in England and Englishness has been stifled (in England) for so long that these problems were bound to occur. The patriotic instinct, especially in a country with the remarkable achievements of England to celebrate, is so strong that misguided left wing post-colonial attempts to destroy it have only resulted in the twisted little minds we see displayed before us. It's a vicious cycle because such things as affection for the Queen (rational and conditional on my part), the flag, national songs etc. is now presumed to be racist - something of a self-fulfilling prophecy. I wonder how these 'monarchist' thugs will react when Prince Charles, a man with a strong interest in Islam and Islamic architecture, and who wishes to be seen as 'protector of faith', rather than 'protector of THE faith', comes to the throne? God save the Queen and to hell with racist knuckledraggers!

Subject: RE: St George's Day
From: GUEST,Jim Clark..London.England
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 01:56 AM

Loiner just to say how sorry I am you were abandoned at birth...its such a pity that the absence of your blood parents has so scarred you mentaly that you've become such a sad pedantic little playground name caller..have you tried counseling...you can get help with your problems....there is good help out there,i'm sure..

Poor old Hester you seem to be one of those airy fairy types who perpetualy latch on to the one with the loudest mouth...

I wish you both well in your tortured little world....ha ha..

Subject: RE: St George's Day
From: Hester
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 01:22 AM

>>>You're a bit late for the party, but you'll have to imagine a celebration in the main square of England's proud second city outside London. Know where it is? Leeds. Music? Of course - from a steel band, tunes chosen from several far-flung corners of our tiny world, played superbly and professionally by a bunch of school-kids - black/asian/arab/white, born in Leeds/England or anywhere else; and every possible permutation. And the crowd are swaying along, getting into the swing - great applause ripples across the square. What for? St George's Day<<<

Loiner, I LOVE this image of the new England!!! Hurray for Leeds, hurray for old George, and hurray for you!

Cheers, Hester

Subject: RE: St George's Day
From: GUEST,Loiner (adoptive - and proud of it)
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 07:02 PM

Hey - do trolls get apoplexy?

I sure as hell hope so - cos I'm inviting you cretins to Leeds.

You're a bit late for the party, but you'll have to imagine a celebration in the main square of England's proud second city outside London. Know where it is? Leeds.

Music? Of course - from a steel band, tunes chosen from several far-flung corners of our tiny world, played superbly and professionally by a bunch of school-kids - black/asian/arab/white, born in Leeds/England or anywhere else; and every possible permutation.

And the crowd are swaying along, getting into the swing - great applause ripples across the square. What for? St George's Day, you racist pillocks. You should have been here in Leeds on April 23rd, 2003, and had a party with us, instead of stirring up hate-ridden shite on your computers.

IMAGINE (if you've got anything but a communication gap between your ears) - all the pomp and splendour of municipal gold chains, knights in armour, war horses, recitations from Shakespeare, magnificent swords, the lot, and all to the strains of a superb party, where we all celebrate in joy the whole mad mixture of what England IS today.

And when you of little brain would have fallen over apoplectic - I would personally, with pleasure, have wheeled you across the square to Leeds General Infirmary. It overlooks the party - staff and patients lined up at the windows, watching and joining in.

And there you, our "delightful little trolls", would have got care to the highest professional standard, in the friendliest manner, from all the staff.

Oblivious to being underpaid and under-valued. Oblivious to the incompetent management they have to cope with (from the suits behind desks, some big-bellied, some gym-club fit, but all white men - there is absolutely no connection of course). And most of all, oblivious to whether you, our apoplectic patient, are a racist troll or not.

Get a life, pillocks - or apoplexy! (And don't ask me which I'd like you to get!)


A Loiner (by adoption! - and proud of it)



PS May I respectfully suggest, if you wish to be taken seriously in your quest to defend "English culture", that you take some lessons in the basic spelling of the English language.

I know it will take a bit of effort, and might well strain both your brain cells, especially when they have to work TOGETHER. But it might just add a bit of credibility to the fatuously empty game you are playing.

Go on - crawl back under your mossy stone and CONCENTRATE.

beffudled = BEFUDDLED
pillary = PILLORY (and the idiom is wrong anyway)
late might = LATE NIGHT
posioning = POISONING
etc

PLEASE - do not wash your hands while you are learning the spelling! DO NOT ON ANY ACCOUNT ATTEMPT TO DO OR THINK TWO THINGS AT THE SAME TIME! PLEASE - THIS IS AN URGENT REQUEST! DO NOT TRY IT - FOR THE SAKE OF YOUR OWN (?)SANITY(?). (Snicker!)




PPS Personally, I'd prefer you to choose a mossy stone in present-day eastern Turkey, or the western steppes of Russia. Believe it or not, that's where you come from, you ignorant pillock - before you set off on the migrations and invasions which colonised Europe and India. A thief is always more protective about his ill-gotten gains than the honest man or woman!

Sadly, I suspect that if you were to present yourself as a refugee/asylum seeker there, you might receive a warmer welcome than the so-called "English" such as you offer. You are a disgrace to the nation you purport to represent.

Subject: RE: St George's Day
From: Nemesis
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 11:16 AM

'ere, my family were immigrants (both sides): and came here for a better life and ended up with a catering establishment that was commissioned to bake the Queen's engagement cake and Prince Charles' christening cake .. however, at the time they faced also discrimination and violence (and bricks through the windows)

Britain is again at a point in its "history" with (seemingly) large waves of immigrants .. whether illegal/ economic/ refugees/ asylum seekers etc .. things will get heated .. but eventually everyone will assimilate and contribute - one way or another - but it will become a "normalised" situation.

Subject: RE: St George's Day
From: GUEST,Beffudled
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 04:21 AM

Stay Calm children please...I understand that standing up for our rights as English does rather make one a subject of pillary these days..But I've tried to express a few thoughts and sorry if I've given anybody sleepless nights....

As for late might curry houses in Bradford could this explain the state of some of your minds from food posioning when you seem to believe we should sell our country for a culture of boozed up eating in establishments that very often even the rats steer clear of..next time you visit your takeaway I suggest you ask to go around the back and see the all too often vile conditions that your food is being prapared in..you might also find X amount of illegal aliens who probably havent washed their hands in days there too...Its complete shite this argument people came here to dour dirty jobs...they came here to earn more dosh than they could back home..sadly dirty jobs is all most of them were capable of....

Subject: RE: St George's Day
From: Hrothgar
Date: 26 Apr 03 - 09:13 PM

Isn't St George the patron saint of Hungary, too?

Or should I not mention this, because they are wogs?

Subject: RE: St George's Day
From: Leo Condie
Date: 26 Apr 03 - 08:46 PM

i've got news for you. you don't have a country. it's just a bit of dirt that your ancestors happened to make babies on. you've every right to throw refugees out of your own house should they enter but that's about all!

also for that matter, you do realise that these people are coming to our countries because they are getting oppressed by their own countries? maybe you don't understand the term asylum seeker.

finally, another bit of news: you are a minority. thankfully the UK is not completely overrun with bigoted racists.

Subject: RE: St George's Day
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 26 Apr 03 - 08:16 PM

Not me Leo, and Geoff I think you take things far too seriously which is not the way Blighty used be. That is a sad day indeed.

However I would rather be shamed for throwing out the socalled refugees from my country than be praised for dying of starvation along with, having let them in.

The Aussies have a great way of dealing with the problem. They do take a limited number of them but they make the conditions so bad that news soon reaches back home that Oz is not a good place to migrate to. The UK presents a better destination, Sangate etc etc etc.

You need to reclaim your country Sir while you still can, and before they ask you to leave; only a matter of time until you are the minority.

Subject: RE: St George's Day
From: Leo Condie
Date: 26 Apr 03 - 07:49 PM

Gareth...I'm led to believe that there were a few people spinning propoganda before Shakespeare. Apparently it's called the bible or something! *offends message board*

Subject: RE: St George's Day
From: Gareth
Date: 26 Apr 03 - 07:32 PM

Ah Readwulf the challenge, you may have your version of history, we Welsh have the correct version !

BTW was Will Shakespear the first spin doctor ??

Gareth

Tis the tramp of Saxon Bowmen,
Saxon Spearmen,
Saxon Foemen"

Subject: RE: St George's Day
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 26 Apr 03 - 07:30 PM

Sorefingers - there is NOTHING funny about being the butt of Racists.
The good people of Bradford are sick and tired of stupid pillocks across Britain trying to make out that our fine city is some kind of shithole because we have welcomed people regardless of race, colour, or religion.
I am sure that the Americans who put on their white sheets and burned crosses in front of negro houses thought that it was all a big joke - that is because they were the ones who were laughing!

Subject: RE: St George's Day
From: Les from Hull
Date: 26 Apr 03 - 03:50 PM

Can I just point out that all this 'God for Harry, England and Saint George' was at Harfleur, and of course, made up by a Mr Shakespeare.

Now Henry V attributed his victory at Agincourt to intercessions to St John of Bridlington and St John of Beverley. When the going gets tough you turn to a Yorkshireman or two!

Subject: RE: St George's Day
From: ard mhacha
Date: 26 Apr 03 - 03:37 PM

Good on you Geoff the Duck, a very fair statement and you were rewarded to-day as Bradford beat Leeds in the Rugby League Cup Final, Well done. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: St George's Day
From: Raedwulf
Date: 26 Apr 03 - 03:13 PM

Oh, and of course, I'll not resist the chance to jump up & down on Gareth, yer miserable welsh... ...... ;) First though...

Ooh-ah - It was Edward III who banned football, on the grounds that it was a cause of serious public disturbance & interfered with the practice of archery. I can't remember who made archery practice on Sundays compulsory, but I think it was also Ed.III. And I just shot my 3rd best ever score today! :))))

As (apparently) the resident MC re-enactor, I can reassure Gareth that the "Welsh longbowman" bit is as much myth as substance. Did you know that most yew wood for bows was imported from the Med? British yew tends to grow too close grained & knotty (less sun) to be the best bow wood. So where did all these 'welsh' bowmen get their bows from, eh?

As ooh-ah says, there is little evidence to suggest that the welsh were remotely close to being a majority at Agincourt (he's mostly right about the monarchs too - they were rather more upper class, than they were welsh, English, or anything else!). Bear in mind that Ed.III reigned from 1327, & the edict was probably (I don't have the date to hand) issued 1340-1350. Henry V reigned 1413-22. Agincourt - 1415. If Gareth'd said welsh longbowmen at Crecy, he'd almost certainly have been right. Agincourt? There's 60-70 years of *English* longbow practice behind that one, boyo! ;)

Subject: RE: St George's Day
From: Harry Basnett
Date: 26 Apr 03 - 03:13 PM

What worries me about 'Befuddled' is the Jack the Ripper 'ha ha' he finishes his posts wih...

Subject: RE: St George's Day
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 26 Apr 03 - 03:09 PM

Dear dear Geoff the Duck, I am sorry that you cannot laugh, as I, at such twaddle.

Subject: RE: St George's Day
From: Raedwulf
Date: 26 Apr 03 - 02:29 PM

It's muppet week, obviously.

Sadly, there is a serious point underneath the drivelling of idiots. To wit, the celts are allowed to be proud of their nationalities, but it's totally non-PC to be proud of being English. Being English is an embarassment, to be swept under the carpet, at best.

Of course, one of the reasons for this is because the Muppet Minority (Befuddled, NightOwl, et al...) hijack the most obvious symbols of Englishness (such as the flag) for their own asinine & indefensible gruntings. Can those of us who are proudly, but open-mindedly, English reclaim our heritage? I dunno. I doubt it. I'm minded of "gay" - I feel quite gay at the moment. Happy, carefree; but how many of you read that word and thought "homosexual?". Another frame of reference hijacked by a small minority {Note: Some very good friends of mine are homo-, this is no phobic comment, whether about sexuality or anything else!). Popular perception will be guided toward the extreme view of a given concept any time ("Muslim" is another good one...).

Of course, as a heathen Engliscman, I've no time for mythic St George, but I remain proud of being English. I can only wish that one day soon I might be allowed to be proud of being English... :(

Subject: RE: St George's Day
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 26 Apr 03 - 02:19 PM

Sorefingers - (You may be trolling - you may be misguided, but you are definitely talking out of your arse!). As a Bradfordian born and bred, I resent your insinuation that there is anything wrong with the racial mix of MY HOME TOWN. It is a great city (and before that a great town) which has opened its arms to migrants of Any and All nations. Amongst others, Bradford has been settled in by Irish who built the nation's roads, Germans who traded in the Wool industry, refugees from the Second World War including Italians, Ukranians, Polish, Latvians and Byelorussians.
In the post-war periods people came from India and the West Indies to do the crap jobs which nobody else wanted to do. They didn't come to steal "White Mens' jobs" - White men wouldn't dirty their hands with the jobs immigrants tackled.
Bradford is also full of people who have arrived from other parts of the Britain and have stopped because it is such a wealth of culture. It sometimes seems as if half the population of the North East now live in Bradford. Musically you can hear almost any genre that exists. In pubs you can head bands playing jazz, R&B, heavy rock, rock & roll, blues, folk, country, pop, bhangra, you name it....
Many is the time when I have been in other parts of the country and bemoaned the fact that ALL eating establishments have closed before the pubs have properly chucked out, when there would still have been time to drive home to Bradford in time to order a sit down curry at 4 in the morning.
Wearing a mini-skirt a crime - What a load of tripe. On the streets of Bradford you will see a more diverse assortment than most other places.
Most of the population of Bradford ARE NOT RACISTS - Let's face it most of the population of the UK are descended from immigrants (including the Romans and Vikings).
GtD.

Subject: RE: St George's Day
From: Ralphie
Date: 26 Apr 03 - 01:57 PM

Now, Now...Children, Children..

Befuddled, Sorefingers, and Nightowl..
You aren't really happy chappies, are you??
Never mind, It'll all be better in the morning...
Nursie will bring you your medication.

The rest of us will carry on playing the music that we love..(and we won't care about the colour that comes with it)

Sleep Well. Hope all three of you get better soon.
Ralphie

Subject: RE: St George's Day
From: Leo Condie
Date: 26 Apr 03 - 01:24 PM

That's more like it. Now. go away, NightFuddle, before we export you to India.

Subject: RE: St George's Day
From: GUEST,Leo
Date: 26 Apr 03 - 01:23 PM

god, letting guests posts gets really annoying. now if only i could find the page!

Subject: RE: St George's Day
From: GUEST,NightOwl
Date: 26 Apr 03 - 01:09 PM

"the British
were not wanted in the Indian and African continents we got out.....so why should we now become part of that unstable
scene...."

Indeed, while we are forced off the Pavement in Saudi and all across the entire region of Islam, they come to our world where they demand to be treated not as olive aliens, but as white natives; while we are murdered in Africa for no reason other than our ethnicity, they come and occupy the chairs of out Universities; while we are deprived of the most basic civil rights in the their country, the Americans arrive in our lands to cuckold us, to trample on our long established rights and ways, to insult our most Gracious Majesty with rude behavior, and to occupy what ever ease they can find wherin they exercise all the rights and enjoy all the privilidges denied the Brits who happen to be in their country; while the Mullas of mulladom are encouraged and empowered by our very own Tory Party to take and control the majority of small business in the UK, our own talented youth and ingenious enterprise are shoved off to Australia where they may more easily escape assimilation into a population of weedy dark skinned grocers, traders, pickpockets, conmullas and other entities.

Truely the days when the Brits have to say 'we cannot let it stand' have arrived. It is time to fight for out lands again as it has not been for over a thousand years!

BE WISE
BE ARMED
BE READY

Subject: RE: St George's Day
From: GUEST,Beffudled
Date: 26 Apr 03 - 10:50 AM

Its no bad thing that theres at least one other here who is courageous enough to drop the politicaly correct ballshine and speak up for the English who have more than the loss of Morris dancing to worry them as their country is stolen from them....I do not support fascist bullies like the national front,and I wish no harm on the ethnics here,but we need to take action now to stop this country of ours becoming as chaotic as the third world....that doesnt mean being inhumane in any way,,it means allowing non europeans who have no ethnological claim to our country being allowed just limited residency here.come and visit..come and work here subject to proper visa limitations,but do not expect to settle here and import vast swathes of family....the British were not wanted in the Indian and African continents we got out.....so why should we now become part of that unstable scene....

Its funny how those who wish to portray themselves as fairminded multicultarly aware are so prone to resorting to fascist style insult instead of constructive discussion..Yes I know standing up for our rights and speaking your true thoughts hurts,but we must try and stay rational at all costs ha ha.

Subject: RE: St George's Day
From: ooh-aah
Date: 26 Apr 03 - 12:11 AM

As a proud Englishman I say, with all other mudcatters, PISS OFF YOU TOTAL WANKER. And that's the only rise you'll get out of us. Ignore him, o my fellow mudcatters!

Subject: RE: St George's Day
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 25 Apr 03 - 11:26 PM

Enough of this Befuddled bashing, is not the last man standing at the bar a real Englishman? Besides the poster is making a very good point, to wit, that which centuries of war and thievery has delivered is now taken without a shot fired by a 747 from Delhi or Karachi, and I must add these gentlemen are not refugees.

As to colonizing the wealth of England, look no further than Bradford now a City of Spice and Software, a place where the wearing of the miniskirt is a crime. Did anyone mention English Liberty?

What Robin and his merry men failed to do, a mulla, who needs parking lights at night in order not to be run over by the N0 9 to Penny Lane, has now achieved without making even the back page.

Fear not England you are not alone, France now boasts the largest Muslim population of Europe while England tries to catch on or up. Soon instead of the cry of 'Away with the Papists' in Belfast we shall hear 'Make way for the Mullas of Bedford'. 'The Rt Hon. The Catsup of Protadown Mulla Iam Paysleee' etc etc etc.

The National Front has suggested a unique solution to the problem, offer the teaboys the option to leave or join the Tory Party.

Subject: RE: St George's Day
From: Hester
Date: 25 Apr 03 - 10:57 PM

Hi, Ralphie:

Yes, I'm aware of the strong Leftist tradition in British Folk since at least the 50s (e.g Centre 42), but I'm also aware of an earlier right-wing perspective (e.g. Rolf Gardiner & Douglas Kennedy in the 30s) that Befuddled seemed to echo in a disturbing way.

Billy Bragg was a staple of my musical collection in my youth (although McGrath of Harlow oddly disputes the idea that he is a "folkie"), and the Mermaid Avenue albums have led me to further exploration of folk music now (and a whole new realm of alternative rock music through Wilco).

Nice to know we're mostly singing from the same page, and that "Befuddled" is just a random troll, not an accepted participant at Mudcat or in the folk scene in general.

Cheers, Hester

Subject: RE: St George's Day
From: ooh-aah
Date: 25 Apr 03 - 08:19 PM

Dear Gareth, I'm quite sure there were some Welsh archers at Agincourt - but the vast majority were certainly English - they were collected from all over England. (There's a good pub in Derbyshire near where I was born where the local men are said to have gathered to go and join Harry's army.) I think it was Henry IV who made it compulsory for all Englishmen to practice archery on Sunday instead of playing ball games! Harry V wasn't Welsh either, only born at Monmouth,- the English Medieval monarchs used to move all over their possessions, which included Wales. Yet another attempt by the Celtic loony fringe to nick everything not actually nailed down!
   Anyway, if you 'get' Harry you also have to take responsiblity for that dreadful little fairy fart Edward II, who was born at Canarvon. Not to mention that tight-fisted humourless mass-murderer Henry VII, born at Pembroke!

Subject: RE: St George's Day
From: Ralphie
Date: 25 Apr 03 - 07:19 PM

Hester
For your info, the UK scene has been inhabited by mainly Centre/Left of Centre songwriters for decades...Ewan McColl, Robb Johnson, Leon Rosselson, John Tams, Bill Caddick, Billy Bragg. to mention but a few...all writing from their own (mainly) working class routes. Indeed , most of the so called "Trad" songs, are songs of the working people...
I think you will find that the views of our "Befuddled" Guest, would be given very short shrift in most Folk venues in the UK...

As others have said. He is a Troll. End of story.

Welcome to the Cat. I'm sure as you explore the myriad of threads here you will come to realise that most of us are singing from the same song sheet!!....

Regards from London Town

Ralphie

Subject: RE: St George's Day
From: Gareth
Date: 25 Apr 03 - 07:18 PM

Well Compton, I hate to disapoint you but Harry, (Henry V) aka Monow Hal, was WELSH

And BTW the Archers, who did the execution at Agincourt, were from South Wales !!!

And remember Arthur Scargill's moto of some 20 years ago :-

The Yorkshire Miners will fight to the last Welshman

Gareth

Now the Lord Mayor of Londons collecting,
To help out our children and wives,
But the Coal owners, they send White Lilly's,
To pay for the Colliers lives.

Subject: RE: St George's Day
From: Harry Basnett
Date: 25 Apr 03 - 07:01 PM

Guest, Befuddled is obviously a Troll (and not even a very good one)...rise not to the bait, kitties...let him languish under his slimy bridge where all trolls belong...

Subject: RE: St George's Day
From: Compton
Date: 25 Apr 03 - 06:44 PM

Cry God for England, Harry and Saint George!!

Subject: RE: St George's Day
From: Hester
Date: 25 Apr 03 - 06:28 PM

Hi, Geoff:

I shall take your advice. Next time, I'll just breathe on him and give him SARS.

Cheers, Hester in Toronto

Subject: RE: St George's Day
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 25 Apr 03 - 06:17 PM

Hester - ignore the TROLLS!

Subject: RE: St George's Day
From: GUEST,Beffudled
Date: 25 Apr 03 - 10:20 AM

Hester you are all laughs arent you...your evenminded response will be noted by all who read this..I hope you get over the need to be offensive when putting over a point before its too late for you....you left me even more befuddled by your self righteous tirade than I usualy am ha ha...

Subject: 'Befuddled' is a RACIST
From: Hester
Date: 25 Apr 03 - 08:23 AM

News flash, Befuddled:

Rationalize all you like. You're still a racist, wanting to reserve British citizenship for whites only, and blaming your country's intrinsic political and social problems on "non-European" immigrants.

You're disgusting! You're a disgrace to Mudcat (thankfully you're only a guest, not a member), you're a disgrace to the folk music movement, and you're a disgrace to your country.

I live in the world's most culturally diverse city: Toronto. And guess what, British folklore traditions such as Morris dancing are alive and well here -- as are festive traditions from all over the world. Culture is not an "either/or" proposition. Rather than blaming immigrants for "swamping" your culture traditions, perhaps you should look instead to the apathy of the British people themselves.

Immigration did not extinguish the St. George' Day parades. England's own religious Reformation accomplished that, hundreds of years prior to any "non-European" migration to your country.

Hester

Subject: RE: St George's Day
From: GUEST,Beffudled
Date: 25 Apr 03 - 02:07 AM

Actualy I realy dont involve myself in football thuggery or any other sort of thuggery or belong to any loony extreme political outfits(politics the sham it is,is lovely work if you can get it ha ha) and I realy dont mind foreign people of any race and enjoy their company as much as anybodies....what I do mind is that those people have countries indeed continents they can go back to where their culture and way of life is intact....we English and I could include the Scots and Welsh(the truly British)have seen our cities being swamped by people who have no ethnological connection with these isles...I truly enjoy the diversity of having people from all parts of the world visit this country,but I realy think visit should be the oprerative word...limited residency rather than citizenship would give non europeans the chance to experience our culture rather than drown it out...We now live in a society where less than 60 percent of the population can afford to buy a house in our cities..where medical provision is stretched to breaking point..where public transport cannot meet capacity demands...where third world food hygene standards are becoming the norm in our cooked food outlets...we need to redress the underlying causes for these problems and the major factor generating them surely is a population out of control...we must help folks from the poorer continents in their countries not try squeezing them all into an Island just 800 miles long by about 400 miles wide...

Hester fiddle while roam burns if you like,but if we are to remain a country in a position to offer any assistance to genuine asylum seekers or as I say by assisting countries to overcome their own problems of supporting their populations then we must remain a country that retains its own national characteristic of a well run orderly succesful society..

Subject: RE: St George's Day
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 01:34 PM

You said it for me too, Hester, and for others too, I'm sure

Subject: RE: St George's Day
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 11:13 AM

Red Max, you are disappointed that St George's Day is celebrated more.

Don't wait for the media and the Chamber of Commerce to do it for you. Do it yourself. Host a party, make some food, organize some music, and celebrate. Perhaps the idea will catch on.

Take power over your life, even if in small ways.

Subject: RE: St George's Day spoiled by ugly RACISM
From: Hester
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 11:00 AM

Bleccchhhh!   What a racist idiot Befuddled is!!!!! (And what an apt pseudonym he chose.) Perhaps he's been kicked in the head too many times by his soccer hooligan buddies.

I want no part of his xenophobia and jingoism. It's exactly that attitude that makes me leary about becoming associated with some modern British folkies.

See my earlier post about the unfortunate connection between the folklore revival and extreme right-wing attitudes in this earlier thread:

Folk Song Politics

In posting my St. George's Day cyber-card, my intent was to point out that George was a multi-faceted figure, whose legend was both influenced by, and celebrated in, MANY countries and cultures, not just England. Seeing George's image used as an emblem of some sort of English 'racial purity' makes me ill.

England has ALWAYS been a genetic and cultural crossroads -- that is what has given her such a vibrant culture! The Celts, the Romans, the Danes, the Saxons, and the Normans all contributed to a glorious mixture. You should rejoice that Asians and Africans are now contributing to that ever-changing mix, and keeping it vital.

After all, you sought these people out to be subjects of your "Empire"!!! How dare you complain that they are now acting on the residual rights of that forcibly imposed citizenship and insisting on being equal members of British society.

Hester ... half English, and fully Canadian, happily living in a society that sees no conflict between cultural diversity and a strong national identity

Subject: RE: St George's Day
From: Surreysinger
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 06:45 AM

Agreed,thanks for a very nice card Hester, which beats by a very long chalk those which were available in the shops. (I've come to it a day after the event). However, cheekily,I must admit that I'm intrigued by the use of a French madrigal tune to accompany it ?

Subject: RE: St George's Day
From: GUEST,Beffudled
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 06:29 AM

I heard on the radio yesterday that St George was in fact a Palestinian...perhaps we could now make old Yasser arrafat our new patron saint...if only he'd have a shave more often ha ha...

Anyway bully for us English...its about time we did a bit more flag waving...its about time we stood up more for our culture....it seems us English are so fairminded that we dont mind our country being colonised by settlers from the asian and African continent...I suppose when we've finaly been relinquished of our controling influence over England then many of those settlers will be fleeing the society they have replaced it with modeled upon the tyrannies and corruption of the countries they've come from...Oh delight in sweet disorder an Englishmans home is what an asylum seeker makes it...

England oh my England alas not much longer we are the dying race....in our own land..

Subject: RE: St George's Day
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 05:57 AM

303, eh? So St George was not Turkish, couldn't have been as the Turks (in fact their ancestors, the Seltzuks) migrated south from Mongolia a couple of centuries after that. For the preceding 8 centuries the East Mediterranean coast (Asia Minor, today's Lebanon etc) had been colonised first by the Greeks and then by the Romans. But it would be too "pat" to call St George Greek or Roman, as there were also indigenous peoples there that invariably mixed with the colonising Greeks and Romans. He could be anything therefore. And it doesn't matter.

Subject: RE: St George's Day
From: Mark Clark
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 11:44 PM

Nice card and links, Hester. Thanks.

I seem to remember Sir James George Frazer discussing St. George and Green George in The Golden Bough. Been a while since I read that but there might be a copy around the house somewhere yet.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: St George's Day
From: Hester
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 11:15 PM

Well, actually, all of St. George's life story is apocryphal. But, hey, that's cool, 'cause he wound up absorbing lots of pre-Christian mythology and traditional folk rituals.

The story of him slaying the dragon is likely based on the classical myth of Perseus rescuing Andromeda from the sea monster.

In Slavic parts of Europe, St. George traditionally appeared on his feast day as "Green George", a man entirely encased in a cage of branches, looking just like the English "Jack-in-the-Green":

Green George in Slovenia

In the 16th century in England, St. George's parades marked the opening of the spring festive season. As Sandra Billington points out in her book _Mock Kings in Medieval Society and Renaissance Drama_, St. George, like Robin Hood, took on the role of a traditional Mock King or Lord of Misrule at these events.

Anyhow, here's my cyber-card to wish you all a (slightly belated) St. George's Day, complete with links to additional information about the meaning and history of this enigmatic figure:

SAINT GEORGE'S DAY GREETING CARD

Cheers, Hester

Subject: RE: St George's Day
From: Mark Clark
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 10:58 PM

Here is one source for the story of St. George. He was a soldier in the Roman army who would not renounce his faith and was tortured and killed. The serpent he is said to have killed was near Beirut in what is today Lebanon.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: St George's Day
From: Snuffy
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 09:55 PM

He was put to death on April 23rd 303 by the Emperor Diocletian, apparently

Subject: RE: St George's Day
From: alanww
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 09:52 PM

I believe that it is 1700 years exactly ago since St George died ...
"And did those feet in ancient times ...!"
Alan

Subject: RE: St George's Day
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 03:23 PM

Does anyone know why 23 April is St George's day, anyway? Was it on 23 April that he slew the dragon, or what?

Perhaps we should just stick with celebrating Will Shakespeare's birthday instead.

Subject: RE: St George's Day
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 12:55 PM

I will eat a kebab in his honour

Subject: RE: St George's Day
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 09:40 AM

When I was in Devon just before Easter there were a lot of
Union Flags (some of them even the right way up) and St George's flags flying, especially in Gt Torrington who make a big thing of their Civil War battle. One pub was even flying the Royal Standard - I thought only Lizzie Windsor could fly that & only when in residence -we didn't see her looking at the sale items in the Dartington Glass shop.
RtS

Subject: RE: St George's Day
From: red max
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 09:40 AM

Oops, just noticed the "All the Best.." thread

Subject: St George's Day
From: red max
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 09:37 AM

I was going to post this as a non-music thread, but on reflection I think this ties in with the general disinterest in English folk music

Notice how St Patrick's day is so widely celebrated (yes, in England too), and how Irish music is thriving...St Andrew gets a healthy acknowledgment, and Scots music is doing okay...if St George had known about the current state of the English tradition he might have thought twice about fighting the dragon

Come to think of it, wasn't St George Turkish?