Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafesj

Post to this Thread - Printer Friendly - Home
Page: [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6]


BS: What is Anti-Semitism?

GUEST,Dreaded Guest 26 Apr 03 - 02:53 PM
CarolC 26 Apr 03 - 03:04 PM
Amos 26 Apr 03 - 03:26 PM
CarolC 26 Apr 03 - 03:28 PM
artbrooks 26 Apr 03 - 03:30 PM
Ebbie 26 Apr 03 - 03:32 PM
Amos 26 Apr 03 - 03:34 PM
GUEST,Dreaded Guest 26 Apr 03 - 03:42 PM
Raedwulf 26 Apr 03 - 03:42 PM
Ebbie 26 Apr 03 - 03:45 PM
Raedwulf 26 Apr 03 - 03:46 PM
artbrooks 26 Apr 03 - 03:47 PM
GUEST,Dreaded Guest 26 Apr 03 - 03:58 PM
Ebbie 26 Apr 03 - 04:01 PM
Bev and Jerry 26 Apr 03 - 04:01 PM
Bev and Jerry 26 Apr 03 - 04:04 PM
CarolC 26 Apr 03 - 04:34 PM
McGrath of Harlow 26 Apr 03 - 04:49 PM
GUEST,Not the Dreaded Guest 26 Apr 03 - 05:13 PM
Forum Lurker 26 Apr 03 - 05:16 PM
Strupag 26 Apr 03 - 06:48 PM
Metchosin 26 Apr 03 - 07:06 PM
Gareth 26 Apr 03 - 07:22 PM
Mark Cohen 26 Apr 03 - 07:37 PM
Metchosin 26 Apr 03 - 07:53 PM
Bev and Jerry 26 Apr 03 - 08:12 PM
CarolC 26 Apr 03 - 10:02 PM
CarolC 26 Apr 03 - 10:19 PM
Little Hawk 26 Apr 03 - 11:19 PM
Sam L 27 Apr 03 - 10:26 AM
GUEST,Dreaded Guest 27 Apr 03 - 10:27 AM
CarolC 27 Apr 03 - 11:16 AM
artbrooks 27 Apr 03 - 11:24 AM
CarolC 27 Apr 03 - 11:27 AM
Little Hawk 27 Apr 03 - 11:56 AM
artbrooks 27 Apr 03 - 01:03 PM
CarolC 27 Apr 03 - 01:57 PM
Art Thieme 27 Apr 03 - 02:15 PM
GUEST,New York City 27 Apr 03 - 05:33 PM
Don Firth 27 Apr 03 - 05:48 PM
Don Firth 27 Apr 03 - 05:54 PM
Mark Cohen 27 Apr 03 - 07:30 PM
CarolC 28 Apr 03 - 12:28 AM
musicmick 28 Apr 03 - 01:36 AM
michaelr 28 Apr 03 - 01:48 AM
Wilfried Schaum 28 Apr 03 - 03:12 AM
Wolfgang 28 Apr 03 - 06:45 AM
Pied Piper 28 Apr 03 - 07:11 AM
McGrath of Harlow 28 Apr 03 - 08:20 AM
GUEST,Dreaded Guest 28 Apr 03 - 12:02 PM

Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum Child
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:













Subject: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest
Date: 26 Apr 03 - 02:53 PM

WASHINGTON: A new law being proposed by Republican senators will serve prohibit criticism of Israel on American college campuses....

Illegal Action?

Maybe someone here can help me on this. It's something I've wondered about for a while. If you criticize a Jew, does that make you an anti-semite? Seriously. I think I've missed something in my education.

The Merriam-Webster dictionary defines Semite as:
a : a member of any of a number of peoples of ancient southwestern Asia including the Akkadians, Phoenicians, Hebrews, and Arabs
b : a descendant of these peoples

So, my question would be, how does criticizing a Jew make you an anti-semite? The definition in the dictionary refers to genetic characteristics...people who could be genetically traced back to ancestors from southwestern Asia. But Sammy Davis Jr. was a Jew. I believe Whoopie Goldberg is a Jew. Wouldn't they be classified as African-American?

Judaism is a BELIEF system, not a genetic characteristic. And sure it's bad to pass judgement on folks because of their condition of birth (skin color, etc.), but what you choose to BELIEVE comes to you voluntarily after you are born, and you need to ANSWER for the actions you perform based on your belief system. So if I want to claim Jews are bad because they did this or that, don't I have the right to?

Many people feel free to pass judgement on fundamentalist Christians (individually and as a group), so if we criticize ONE belief system in the land of free speech and are allowed to do so, how can our laws be warped to protect another belief system?

And I guess that's the crux of my problem in sorting this out. Judaism is a VOLUNTARY BELIEF SYSTEM. You are not born a Jew, so if I were Buddhist and a Jew insulted me and I kicked his ass (fundamentalist Buddhist), how could that whiner expect special treatement under the law? And why would I be accused of hating a whole genetic group of people because of the thoughts someone carries around in his head?

I know the article cited above refers to criticism of Israel, but we have been so brainwashed on the subject of anti-semitism, I think it's time for me to work this out. I don't understand how a voluntary belief system has been merged in the public mind so successfully that now, when you criticize 'a jew', you are automatically assumed to be criticizing millions of others who are of the same 'race'. Judaism is NOT a race. It is a religion voluntarily taken up by people after they are born.

I personally think Judaism is just another religious control system set up in the dim past to take advantage of us, so in saying that, did I just commit an act of anti-semitism? If so, someone will have to tell me why.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Apr 03 - 03:04 PM

One of the problems with your reasoning, DG, is that it assumes that all Jews support the extremist, right-wing government in Israel. That is most certainly not the case. Any legislation that curbs free speech with regard to criticizing Israel on college campuses in the US, also curbs the right to free speech for Jews on college campuses in the US who want to criticize the government of Israel.

Ironic, isn't it, that the US waged a first strike war against Iraq so that the Iraqi people could have freedom of speech, while we, here in the US, are having that same right taken away from us.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Amos
Date: 26 Apr 03 - 03:26 PM

I doubt there is any real substance to the DG's fear here -- I notice the "Balochistan Post" did not actually cite the porposal being discussed. And I suspect that the reason this is so is that the actual language of the proposal is probably less inimical than the Balochistannites -- whoever the hell they are -- would have us believe.

I'm not even going to start on why someone would publish something named like that.... it sounds like a make-believe country to me.

A


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Apr 03 - 03:28 PM

Balochistan is a region of Pakistan, Amos.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: artbrooks
Date: 26 Apr 03 - 03:30 PM

According to Webster: antisemitic: 1. having or showing prejudice against Jews; 2. discriminating against or persecuting Jews; 3. of or caused by such prejudice of hostility. Jew: 1. member of the tribe or kingdom of Judah; 2. a person desended, or regarded as descended, from the ancient Hebrews of biblical times; 3. a person whose religion is Judaism.

There is nothing antisemitic about criticising Israel. Criticism is different from discrimination. Besides, Israel has citizens who are practicing Moslems, practicing Christians (of many different sects) and individuals who practice no religion at all. Antisemites historically haven't cared whether or not their targets practiced any religion at all; a significant number of those "Jews" who were murdered by the Nazis were practicing Christians whose crime was having one Jewish grandparent.

I doubt if the article you linked to has any more credibility than others you have shared with us.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Apr 03 - 03:32 PM

I agree that if there is a US law passed prohibiting criticism of Israel and/or its policies, a law that affected funding, that would be cause for great concern. Such a ban would be illegal and immoral and un-American.

However, note that the article says that Santorum is PLANNING to propose such a law. (Actually, the article is less than convincing.) Let's wait.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Amos
Date: 26 Apr 03 - 03:34 PM

Well, there ya go. My apologies to the world at large -- I should have known that, and I didn't. The things you learn on the Cat!    I thought it was some wise guy on the Net drumming up a clever-sounding website. I think I need a sabbatical, during which I will assiduously learn all the names of regional group identities between Reykjavik and Nome, proceeding easterly.



A


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest
Date: 26 Apr 03 - 03:42 PM

Well, if you go HERE and type in 'semite', you get the definition I quoted. And my point is, a semite is someone from a particular geographic region of the world. A Jew is someone who takes up a religion after being born ANYWHERE in the world. So, how does criticizing a Jew make you an 'anti-semite'? Sure our dictionaries have been warped to blur the label into a very, very bad thing, but criticizing a Jew does not make you a racist any more than criticizing a Baptist or Catholic does.

THAT is my problem with the label, I just realized. 'Anti-Semite' has come to mean 'racist', and that's nonsense. Or so I think. Once again I beg for enlightenment.

And GWBush has already praised Santorum as being 'inclusive' for propsing this.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Raedwulf
Date: 26 Apr 03 - 03:42 PM

The short & simple answer, DG (what ever happened to the doomsaying, BTW? The Bush concentration camps, the self-inflicted 'terrorist' incidents, et al? They never occured?! Oh dear...), is that 'Semite' & 'Jew' have become synonymous.

Yes, Semite covers a far larger racial & genetic grouping than merely Jews, but the popular perception (which media everywhere do nothing to dispel) is that Semitic = Jewish.

The biggest obstacle to any redefinition or criticism is, of course, Nazism & the Holocaust. I've always found it rather ironic that the hotbed of instability, hatred & violence for the last 40 years or so has been the Mid-East, where most of the racial groupings are Semitic! But they've got a 5000 year history of not getting on, & humanity seems to to be still stuck at a 5 year old mentality with regard to social development. On the visible evidence, Israel remains one of the most right-wing fascist states in the world, & has been for several decades.

I can only surmise that this is another piece of evidence that god likes a laugh as much as anyone else! The Mid-East would get a lot less complicated if Mr "I hate Tyranny, Terrorism & Oppression" Bush would withdraw support from Israel. There'd be a whole lot less 'occupied territories', & a whole lot less Intifada if he did. I don't expect it to happen (& no, it wouldn't solve all the problems if it did, but Bloody Hell! would it pull the rug out from underneath the militant Arab/Islamists if it did! Sadly Dubya hasn't the brains or balls to make it happen, but I can wish...).


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Apr 03 - 03:45 PM

LOL - Please post the names as you learn them, Amos. Sounds like a BIG job so you might as well share the largesse.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Raedwulf
Date: 26 Apr 03 - 03:46 PM

DG - One error: Judaism is not a proselytising faith. If you are a Judaist, you are almost certainly genetically Jewish. The Jews have never sought converts!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: artbrooks
Date: 26 Apr 03 - 03:47 PM

Go to the same site and type in "anti-semite."


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest
Date: 26 Apr 03 - 03:58 PM

I'd do some more dictionary searches later, but sure...everything's been blurred, in history and dictionaries and word-of-mouth. Anti-Jew = racist. And that's ridiculous. Even if you ARE born into a Jewish family, when you reach 15 or so you can make a choice. If you continue with the religion, it's no longer a matter of birth...you've CHOSEN to believe the stuff.

I couldn't find a Jew on a full tank of gas where I live, and I was raised to not discuss 'religion and politics'. Lots of talk about the weather, but not much else. And this is the kind of thing it leads to...a religion being equated with a race in a country passing laws against racial crimes. Come on...that's just not legitimate.

Jews have to answer for their beliefs just like everyone else, and hiding behind a 'racial' label is phony. Or so it seems.

And Raedwulf's observation about the Holocaust seems very pertinent. Maybe the over-sensitivity to 'anti-semitism' is an outgrowth of the relatively recent mistreatment of Jews in Germany. But then Arabs are semites according to the dictionary, so why are Americans beating them to death at Guantanamo?

You can't ride two horses with one ass (Woody Allen line...a Jew), and what applies to one applies to all. I just get distressed when my first Amendment is violated on a bogus pretext. If I want to criticize a Jew, I should be able to without being labelled anti-semite.

And I'll get back to that apocalyptic stuff. It's there in abundance if you look around. Man o man is it there.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Apr 03 - 04:01 PM

"Anti-Jew = racist."? Yes, Dreaded Guest, that is racist.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 26 Apr 03 - 04:01 PM

DG:

Criticizing a Jew does not make one an anti-semite. Criticizing Judaism does not make one an anti-semite. Criticizing Jews as a group does make one an anti-semite. You can substitute the appropriate words for Jew and anti-semite and this holds true for any group of individuals.

Anti-semitism, however, connotes a lot more than mere criticism. It includes such acts as not allowing Jews to live in certain areas, stay in certain hotels or join certain organizations. It includes hate literature or speech against Jews as a group. And it can even include the murder of people simply because they are Jews. Here again, you can make the appropriate substitutions and apply it to any group of individuals.

Criticizing Israel or its government has nothing to do with anti-semitism unless that criticism is directed at the country or its government simply because it is Jewish.

Bev and Jerry


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 26 Apr 03 - 04:04 PM

And by the way, English is a very strange language. Anti-semite does not mean against semites. Compare the definition of semite you posted with the definition of anti-semite posted by artbrooks. It's kind of like flammable and inflammable.

Bev and Jerry


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Apr 03 - 04:34 PM

Amos, with Google, everyone can be Superman ;-)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Apr 03 - 04:49 PM

"It's kind of like flammable and inflammable."

Hardly so. "Flammable" and "inflammable" mean exactly the same thing. Whatever they might mean, "semitic" and "anti-semitic" do not mean the same thing.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,Not the Dreaded Guest
Date: 26 Apr 03 - 05:13 PM

This thread started because Draeded Guest found some newspaper, supposedly in Pakistan, running a phony story about Rep. Rick Santorum.

It's a big fat libelous lie!

Search the Internet and you can find this story on a bunch of far-right anti-Semitic and racist websites. You can also find it on Islamist, and Arab anti-Israel websites.

Thing is, though, you won't find the story on the website of any reputable news organization, left, center or right. You won't find anything about it on Rick Santorum's own website. That's because it's all a lie, made up by some anti-Semite and passed around by others of that bent.

Just because you can provide a link to something on the Internet, does not mean it has a grain of truth to it.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 26 Apr 03 - 05:16 PM

McGrath-That's not what was meant. It's simply an example of the ways in which our language no longer makes sense in context with its roots.

DG-You can criticize A Jew, based on personal matters, and only an idiot will call you an anti-Semite. If, however, you criticize a group of Jews, or even an individual Jew, on the basis of their Judaism, that does make you an anti-semite. The reason why anti-Semitism is considered racism is that most anti-Semites consider Jews a racial group.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Strupag
Date: 26 Apr 03 - 06:48 PM

And here was me always believing that Balochistan was a village near Glencoe!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Metchosin
Date: 26 Apr 03 - 07:06 PM

Forum Lurker, I think inflammable and flammable are still synonymous in the UK, hence McGrath's (misunderstanding the intent?) unlike in North America, where, due to the decline in literacy, the average person was judged too thick to understand that "inflamable" printed on a gas tanker truck, might mean it could be ignited.

Hence, in Canada at least, the word "inflamable" was dropped in that instance, in preference to "flammable".


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Gareth
Date: 26 Apr 03 - 07:22 PM

Actually I rthought "anti-sematic" was an insult thrown when people start losing the logical agrument.

Gareth


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 26 Apr 03 - 07:37 PM

NTDG, thanks for pointing that out. Of course, lies spread much more easily than truth. I read the article that DG linked to, and it's laughable. Unfortunately, people believe what fits their beliefs, whether it's credible or not (and I don't mean to exempt myself).

My understanding (which fits my belief system!) is that the term "anti-Semitic" originated as a euphemism, possibly to thinly disguise the fact that some people who were complaining about attacks against Jews were, in fact, Jewish. In some sense it's a nonsense word, since both Arabs and Jews are Semitic--though that wasn't as much of a consideration in the 1930's. And I suspect that even the term "Semitic" may have had pejorative connotations when it was originally used. (Hell, everything people say about other groups usually has pejorative connotations.) I once learned that the Semitic tribes were descended from Noah's son, Shem. But since that would theoretically include a third of humanity, I tend to doubt it. I don't know who originated the word "anti-Semitic", or when, or why--maybe somebody out there does.

By way of possible clarification, the answer to the question of whether Judaism is a religion, or an ethnic group, or a culture, is...yes. The vast majority of those who consider themselves Jews did not "choose" Judaism from a smorgasbord of religions. They were born to Jewish parents, who were born to Jewish parents, and so forth. (Technically, according to strict Jewish law, you are considered Jewish if your mother was Jewish. That doesn't mean, of course, that you must consider yourself Jewish...only that a Jewish religious authority would.) In that sense, Jews are an ethnic group. Now, most people who consider themselves Jews do observe Jewish religious practices, including many people who were born into other ethnic groups or grew up in other religious traditions. There is a wide variation in the extent and intensity of those religious practices, but they all draw from the same religious tradition and share some common principles, beliefs, symbols, and observances. Finally, there are a sizable number of people who consider themselves Jewish, who do not observe Jewish religious practices, but who identify with the history and culture of Judaism. For them, Judaism is a culture, not a religion.

So the answer may differ, depending on whether you're discussing who considers himself or herself Jewish, or whom an Orthodox Rabbinical court considers Jewish...or whom the Nuremberg edicts considered Jewish.

Aloha,
Mark

In my opinion, the question as to whether Jews are a "race" is a nonsense question. The concept of "race" derives from 19th century anthropologists' and historians' attempt to prove the superiority of northern European people by describing "inferior races" elsewhere in the world. Hitler carried this to an extreme.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Metchosin
Date: 26 Apr 03 - 07:53 PM

and then again, to be even more pedantic, I could say that a load of Douglas fir on a logging truck was flammable but hardly inflammable, which does make more sense to me in context of its roots (no pun intended).*BG*


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 26 Apr 03 - 08:12 PM

We knew we shouldn't have use flammable and inflammable.

We were only trying to point out that English is a very strange language and words don't always mean what you'd think they mean. An anti-semite is not against semites any more than anti-matter is against matter. Aunty Em is not against Emily either. Antebellum is not against war. Antipasta is not....

Bev and Jerry

(Yes, we know it's Italian - don't start.)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Apr 03 - 10:02 PM

While the Balochistan Post certainly doesn't appear to be particularly friendly to Israel, it does quote a US newspaper in its article:

"The news of the Santorum-Brownback scheme, appeared in the April 15 issue of the New York Sun, a vehemently pro-Israel neo-conservative daily published in Manhattan"

I think it would make sense for people to read the article in the New York Sun before determining whether or not the Balochistan Post article is a lie. Anyone know where we can get access to the article in the New York Sun?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Apr 03 - 10:19 PM

Here's the New York Sun article:

Universities Resist Efforts To Require Ideological Diversity On Campuses

by Timothy Starks
New York Sun
April 15, 2003


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Apr 03 - 11:19 PM

DG is drawing notice to a form of political correctness that's been around for quite a few decades, that's all, and I think most of us know what it is...

It is that people are frequently attacked as being "anti-semitic" merely because they criticize the Israeli government's policies in Israel and the occupied territories. This has much the same impact as if they were labelled "racist" for suggesting that O.J.Simpson might possibly have murdered his wife or lied in court.

It's a fear tactic to label people in that fashion, and it is used frequently.

It causes politicians and media people in particular to be very circumspect when it comes to what they say (publicly) about Israel. It also causes police to have fear of publishing any statistic which indicates the number of urban blacks involved in certain violent crimes...although to so publish ought to be an incentive to help the blacks in urban America improve their situation, rather than to cause anyone to demonize black people. (It's mostly other blacks who are the victims of the violence.)

It's sad, and it's endemic in this society. People are afraid to call a duck a duck, if it happens to be a black duck or an Israeli duck. This is what happens when society bends over backwards to right a previous wrong, and creates a plethora of new wrongs in the process.

The emperor has no clothes, but no one is allowed to publicly say so.

Similar fear tactics are being waged against people who publicly protested the war...only they are labelled as "traitors" instead of "racists" or "anti-semites".

McCarthy used such tactics to shut people up and shut them down. So did Hitler...in the early stages. Later he just had them arrested and shot.

- LH


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Sam L
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 10:26 AM

Amos, I think you'll find that after the Hearst kidnapping, the U.S. severed all diplomatic ties to the Symbionese, in Symbonia.

I don't think any measure like that will stand, some people would transgress on principle alone, even some Jews, even some semites. But I could be wrong, I also don't think Bush can get re-elected, I really doubt it. I'll be very surprised.

   But an antidote is against dote. A hort may have a cohort. I went to bed at a godly hour, and now sit here with my clothes all shevelled, this place I shared with my requited love is in a total state of array.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 10:27 AM

"....That's because it's all a lie, made up by some anti-Semite..."

WHAT IS AN ANTI-SEMITE?! A prick Republican wants to generate some campaign money from the Jews so he proposes illegal crapola, and suddenly the 'anti-semites' are spreading lies? This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. Santorum is a money-grubbing whore acting on some fat-cat's behalf, and anyone who opposes him is an 'anti-semite', which is something no one can define. Screw that. I want to know WHY someone who opposes Santorum's un-American activity is an anti-semite.

I suspect I'll never get a clear answer on this because then the whole thing would be de-mystified, and people who have CHOSEN the Jewish belief system would no longer have the option of falling back on the 'race card'. Or so it seems. Jews CHOOSE to worship in a certain way and they don't deserve special treatment because of it. They are not a 'race', they do not have a common genetic denominator, and criticizing a Jew is not anti-semitic or racist. You are not branded with your mother's religion, and free will does exist. Guess I reached my own conclusion. Sorry for thinking out loud, but you just get tired of the nonsense sometimes.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 11:16 AM

Another problem with using legislation like that for the purpose of promoting "idological diversity", is that when Fundamentalist Christian lobby groups realize that schools could lose funding if they criticize or discriminate against Pagans, they'll lobby against it pretty strenuously.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: artbrooks
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 11:24 AM

I have yet to see or hear from any real news source that Santorum has, will, or would even contemplate such legislation.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 11:27 AM

I take it from what you've said, artbrooks, that you don't consider the New York Sun a "real news source".


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 11:56 AM

No, no, it's the Toronto Sun that is not a real news source...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: artbrooks
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 01:03 PM

The NY Sun has been around for less than a year, has a very limited distribution, and a viewpoint that is slanted toward the right. No, I do not.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 01:57 PM

Ok, artbrooks. Thanks.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 02:15 PM

This is just semantics---antisemantics ! ;-) ***SMILE*** **little joke** (Hell, I didn't think it'd be THAT little !!)

But seriously folks, antisemitism is what defines me as a Jew.

By that I mean that, somehow, I never had any afinity for or with the religious aspects of that faith. I never had the faith. My mother was Jewish. That is a Jew's definition of what is a Jew; if your mother wasa Jew, you are too. But in the 1940s Hitler would have put me in an oven and killed me because of that. I suspect there are arabs and white suremists who would do that too. So, I am a Jew---a Jewish person. I am also an atheist. ------ Your question was, "What is Anti-semitism?" For me, it's just a defining fact.

Art Thieme


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,New York City
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 05:33 PM

CarolC,

There are few people here in NYC who take the NY Sun to be a serious news source. I don't know anyone who has ever bought it more than once; me included. My local newstand doesn't even bother carrying it.

Don't you think that if this was a serious story, it might have made it into at least one legitimate newspaper.

Why don't you call Santorum's office. I did and they said the whole thing is nonsense.

And that's why you can only find this story on uncredible websites.

There are websites that offer proof that Elvis is alive and working at a 7/11 in Mississippi. There are other websites that think Saadam was a great humanitarian. Just because you read it on the Internet does not mean it's true.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 05:48 PM

Calling someone "anti-Semitic" if they criticize the govenment of Israel, or calling someone "unpatriotic" or "un-American" if they criticize the Bush Administration is an example of the argumentum ad hominem--which is to say, an attempt to draw attention away from an assertion by attacking the person who makes the assertion.   It, in no way, refutes the assertion itself. This is a diversionary tactic and should be met with the contempt it deserves.

Don Firth


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 05:54 PM

Also, if this country ever passes a law preventing anybody from criticizing anything, and if it isn't immediately
rescinded
by the Supreme Court, then that's all she wrote, folks!

Don Firth


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 07:30 PM

DG, I think I agree with some of what you're saying here, but I guess you didn't see my earlier post, which did attempt to answer your question. It's not correct to say Jews don't have a common genetic denominator. A recent study (I know I should provide a reference, but I don't have it offhand and don't have the time to look for it) looked at the Y chromosomes of Jewish men who identified themselves as Kohanim. These are the descendants of the high priests (considered to be descendants of Moses' brother Aaron, the first Kohen), who still have special privileges and obligations in the synagogue service. In Jewish tradition the status of Kohen is passed from father to son. In biology, a man's Y chromosome comes from his father, while his X chromosome comes from his mother. The study showed that nearly all of these men had a specific marker on their Y chromosome which was not seen in other Jews or in non-Jews. This suggests that all these men, who were selected on the basis of a belief that they were all descendants of Aaron, were in fact descended from a common male ancestor.   

This certainly does not prove that all Jews are genetically related; of course they are not. But as I mentioned above, a very large proportion of people who identify themselves as Jews base that identification on a common ancestral heritage. It's not exclusively based on choice. And for the Nazis, at least, their attacks on Jews were not based on a person's religious choice at all. Many Christians died in concentration camps because they had a Jewish parent or grandparent. (In fact, there was a persistent rumor that Adolf Hitler's father, Alois, was the illegitimate son of a Jewish man named Frankenberger. The rumor was persistently denied, but Frankenberger did make regular payments to Hitler's grandmother's family. For more on this, I'd recommend the fascinating book For Your Own Good: Hidden Cruelty in Child-Rearing and the Roots of Violence, by Swiss psychiatrist Alice Miller.)

For the record, I'm not a Kohen, despite my name. My grandfather's name was Kolchevni; he changed it when he came to America. The popular belief is that officials at Ellis Island changed people's names; in fact, most people changed their names to ones that they thought would sound more "American" and less "European".

Aloha,
Mark


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 12:28 AM

GUEST,New York City, I'm willing to take artbrooks' word that the New York Sun is not a credible source. There isn't any need for me to make a long distance phone call to check out something I've already accepted as a probability.

Regarding credibility, based on what I saw in their "about us" page, I don't have any reason to think that the Campus Watch website I linked to isn't credible, although the article they posted from the Sun may not be credible.

Personally, I think it's possible that Santorum entertained the idea just long enough for someone with better political sense than he has to talk him out of it. So I'm not convinced that there was never any truth to the story. But it really doesn't matter much in the long run if nobody's going to be trying to introduce such legislation anyway.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: musicmick
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 01:36 AM

I hope we dont have to go over this again and again. The misinformation about Jews and their "common" belief is as continuous a lie as there exists in history. Ill informed non-jews have been more than willing to believe the most prepostorous chaserai from grinding up the bones of Gentile children to make matzoh to the suggestion that Israel knew about the 9/11 attack in advance but withheld the information to inflame Americans against the Arabs. Here are a few facts (not that it will make any difference to many).
The Jews are an ancient people who have survived, as a culture, because they have not assimilated into the various societies that have housed them in their exile, which we call diaspora. There is a tribal religion that unites the people but, unlike modern religions, ours is not a requirement for tribal membership. Even our bible is more a historical record than a litany of faith. Comparing Jews to Christians or Moslems is invalid. A Christian, for example, is someone who believes in the divinity of Christ. If he does not hold this belief, he ceases to be a Christian. A Jew is defined by birth and liniage. Think of a jew as you would a Navajo or a Maori.
Critsism of the Israeli government is not, in itself, anti-Semetic. Lots of Jews critisize the government. Lots of Israelis critisize the Prime Minister and the Knesset every day. However, if you critisize Israel for their very existense, I would suspect that you are anti-Jewish or anti-Semetic (both are acceptable)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: michaelr
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 01:48 AM

Fred -- ROTFLMAO!

LH -- your post is, as usual, well-reasoned and to the point. Israel and its powerful supporters have tried for decades to use the "anti-semitic" smokescreen to deflect criticism of their policies. And DG is right about that.

Can I say that again?

GD is right about that!

Cheers,
Michael


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 03:12 AM

Raedwulf - interesting definition of Judaist. I always thought of him as a scientist devoted to the study of Jewish culture, language, literature &c. (Judaistics) So it is commonly used in the scientific circles around here.

Don - wonderful posts, especially about the argumentum ad hominem. Here in unlucky Germany antisemitic is used as a bat to immediately knock down the slightest critics against any person or institution being Jewish. We had our examples during the last polls.

The term Anti-Semitism concerning only the Jews seems to be coined in Europe, because the Jews for centuries were the only Semites living in European surroundings (the last Arabs in Spain were kicked out centuries ago).

Wilfried


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 06:45 AM

Antisemitism (why retype what I have written earlier)

Wolfgang


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Pied Piper
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 07:11 AM

There is no such thing as a Jewish race any more than there is an Arabic race, a white race, a Black race, there is only a human race.
Even though ethnically Jewish people tend to marry other ethnically Jewish people the evidence suggests that Jewish people in a given area are more closely related to non Jews there than they are to Jews from other parts of the world. This does not of cause prevent the Cohen line evidence being true it just means that the hole concept of race is pretty well meaningless.
When occasionally asked for my "Ethnicity" (a euphemism for race used in certain official forms here in the UK)I'm very tempted to put left-handed, which is as valid as any other characteristic,to base a "race" on.

All the best PP


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 08:20 AM

Obviously being highly critical of the activities of Israel doesn't imply anti-Semitism. Nor for that matter would it be anti-Semitic to be anti-Zionist, in the sense of being in principle opposed to the idea that Israel should by definition be a Jewish state, with the implication which that carries, that Israelis who are not Jewish should always in some sense be second-class citizens.

On the other hand anti-Semitism does obviously exist among those who are critical of Israel. In some cases, more especially within the far right in Europe, it is the source of antagonism to Israel; in other cases, more especially among Arabs, antagonism towards Israel has given rise to a kind of secondary antagonism towards Jews.

It is important for people who are critical of Israel to be aware of these differences. Anti-Semites are always the enemy. (Even when they have shifted their antagonism towards Jews to antagonism towards Arabs.) And it seems to me that people who try to brand all critics if Israel as "anti-Semites" are in fact acting in a way that actually promotes anti-Semitism, and in some cases consciously so, since that is a good way of making it harder for Jews in the diaspora to be openly critical of Israel.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 12:02 PM

Well, some say Jews are a race and have no choice over their religious orientation, and some say otherwise. I think otherwise.

If Jewishness was a hereditary thing, then how is Sammy Davis Jr. accounted for? This is a no-brainer, folks.

If you are a Jew, it is because you CHOOSE to believe the stuff taught by the religion. Can't be any other way. If it WAS the other way, a Baptist could say, "I don't have any choice over the matter, because my daddy and his daddy afore him were Baptists." Believing in Judaism is what makes you a Jew, nothing more. You're not born with it. If the Jews want to be 'exclusive' and say you need certain genetic markers to be a 'real' Jew, that's their business. As long as they don't force that crap on me and call me an 'anti-semite' when I point out it is crap.

No offense meant to anyone. Honest. I just think every RUMOR of passing laws and regulations against the First Amendment needs to be thoroughly picked apart and, if true, nipped in the bud.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate


Next Page

 


This Thread Is Closed.


Mudcat time: 23 May 7:08 AM EDT

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 2022 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.