BS: What is Anti-Semitism?

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 12:15 PM

Art Thieme - Good point there! And very succinctly put. So, how do you define what a "Jew" is? Is it a religious designation, a genetic one, a cultural one, or a social one? Or is it various of those in one combination or another?

Obviously, the word "Jew" means, as in the case of numerous other words, whatever the person using it thinks it means. No wonder people are always arguing about these things and can't come to any agreeable conclusions... :-)

I would tend to agree that generally speaking a "Jew" is seen as someone whose parents are "Jewish"...except in the case of Sammy Davis Jr.???

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Sam L
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 12:20 PM

It was a good point made up there, that while anti-semitism doesn't make sense, it's senselessness doesn't pertain to the beliefs and culture of Jews, it's a nonsense concocted by--anti-semites. Some of them were of a mythical race. It doesn't have to make sense to be real, and the fact that one feels unfairly labeled that way still doesn't make it unreal. The fact that someone may "play the race card" in an argument doesn't mean there isn't any racism. Because it "doesn't make sense". No, it doesn't, but yes, there is.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Sam L
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 02:59 PM

Dreaded Guest--exactly who is it that says Jews are a race and have no choice as to their beliefs? I've never heard that one, ever, and really don't know what you are going on about. It really is a no-brainer.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 03:22 PM

Everyone has a choice as to their beliefs. The question is "Is it a conscious choice?". Or: "Are they aware they have a choice?"

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: NicoleC
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 03:28 PM

I think, Fred, our DG is saying that those who hate Jews aren't racist because he doesn't believe Jews are a "race."

By whatever definition, that doesn't mean they aren't bigots and hate-mongers.

But since neither has anything to do with criticizing the government of Israel, I'm with you in that I can't figure out what he's going on about. Again.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 03:32 PM

It's my understanding that the Lutheran Church is very strong in the Scandinavian countries, particularly Sweden and Norway. There is a large number of people living in Seattle who are of Scandinavian descent and, of those who go to church, most of them go to Lutheran churches. There is a historical association between being Scandinavian and being Lutheran, and it would appear to me that this is analogous to the association between certain portions of the Semitic peoples and Judaism, as is neatly and clearly explained by Mark Cohen above, 26 Apr 03 - 07:37 PM (Aloha, Mark!). I don't think either "Scandinavianism" or "Lutheranism," or the combination thereof, constitute a race. Not, at least, in any anthropology textbook I've ever seen.

In 1924, an thirteen-year-old German girl named Helene Mayer won the German national fencing championship. She went on to win a gold medal at the 1928 Olympics. She continued to pile up a mind-boggling stack of medals and trophies over the next several years. While in Los Angeles to compete in the 1932 Olympics, she got the word that her German citizenship had been rescinded and she had been expelled from the Offenbach Fencing Club in her home town. Why? Well, it seems this five-foot ten-inch tall, green-eyed young woman, with her blonde hair tied back in braids, who could wield a foil with devastating skill—this young woman who looked like the quintessential Aryan, the very picture of Brünhilde herself—was born of a Christian mother and a Jewish father, neither of whom practiced any religion at all. They went to neither church nor synagogue. Now an unhappy expatriate, forbidden to return to her family and friends back home, Helene decided to stay in the United States where she went to Mills College. She won the 1934 and 1935 U. S. Women's Foils Championships and could have fenced on the U.S. Olympic Team. But she regarded her loss of German citizenship as some stupid bureaucratic blunder, didn't realize what was really at stake, and wanted her citizenship back.

The 1936 Olympic Games were to be held in Berlin. Hitler was relying on the Olympic Games to demonstrate to the world the superiority of the "Aryan Race," so to insure the "purity" of his athletes, he banned all Jews from the German Olympic teams. This created a mild furor in several countries, including the United States. Jewish athletes and many others who were sympathetic threatened a boycott. This wouldn't look good for the smooth running of the Olympics, so Hitler took threat seriously. In an effort to forestall a boycott and an international black eye, he (through an intermediary) begged Helene Mayer to return to Germany and compete on the German fencing team rather than fence for the American team. As an inducement, he indicated that he would restore her German citizenship. She was to be the token Jew. At least, Hitler contented himself, she was only half Jewish.

She accepted. She fenced in the Olympics and, disappointingly, placed second, winning the silver medal. Ironically enough, Ilona Schacherer-Elek from Hungary, who won the gold, and Ellen Preis from Austria, who won the bronze, were both Jewish. Although Germany won most of the medals at this Olympics, it was not a clean sweep for the Aryans. In addition to "non-Aryans" winning the top three places in women's fencing, Jesse Owens, pretty obviously a non-Aryan, dominated the track and field events. Hitler was visibly pissed! At one point, he stalked out of the arena in disgust.

Helene realized that things had changed in Germany, so after the Olympics, she returned to the United States and applied for American citizenship. She taught fencing at Mills College and went on to win a total of eight U. S. Women's Foils Championships before she died at an early age of ovarian cancer.

Helene Mayer was vilified by many people for accepting Hitler's offer to return and compete for Germany in the 1936 Olympics. Monday morning quarterbacking says that this was a highly questionable choice on her part, but she was politically very naïve, and like many people who should have known better, didn't really understand what was going on in Germany at the time. All she wanted to do was earn her degree in social work and spend her free time pursuing the sport she loved.

I don't know what all of this proves or what point I'm really trying to make here, other than to give an example of the kind of incredible self-defeating stupidity that can be displayed by those who feel threatened by anyone who didn't come out of the same cookie-cutter they came out of. This can—and did—reach Holocaust proportions when it guides the actions of those afflicted with this moral flaw who somehow manage to attain political power.

In a way, Helene Mayer was lucky. She left Germany before it was too late. Whether or not she practiced any religion at all, the fact that she had "Jewish blood" (whatever that is) could have spelled her doom, as it did for so many others. If I fault Helene Mayer at all, it's for being politically naïve. A dangerous non-position in that era.

And in this.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 03:56 PM

OK, what I'm rabbitting on about is that I don't believe the Jews are a 'race' of people. Yet if you criticize a Jew, it is sometimes made out to be 'racism'. The opening link may have been a lousy one to use in starting this thread in order to get to this point, but yes, that is my fundamental problem with the 'anti-semitism' tag. If you criticize someone of the Jewish religious group, you are a racist. And I HAVE read of 'anti-semite' used in that context many times and will try to find examples if I give a damn later. I've heard and seen it used that way enough for MY satisfaction, at any rate. And it's not right. And given how the US was just sold on the Iraq invasion (50% of Americans thought Saddam did the 9-11 job), we can be sold ANYTHING. So I'm just trying to get ahead of the curve on this one. The Mid East debacle is going to mean a lot of Jews immigrating to America as the Arabs murderize them in Israel, and I just wanted to get straight with myself that I wasn't being racist when I tell them I don't agree with them. Really...simple as that. I've never had to give the matter much thought.

And restraints against the First Amendment have already been passed against Christians, Don. Several months ago the governor of Virginis (?) signed legislation passed by the Republicans there against bashing homosexuals from the pulpit. A lot of fundamentalists preach that the Bible is against homosexuality (and they make as good a case as you can with a book as open to interpretation as the Bible is), yet a secular ruler ruled that they could be imprisoned for condemning homosexuality. I believe that was in Virginia. The fire-breather I heard on the radio where I first heard it was astounded Caeser would command him not to rail against the 'queers', as he put it, and that was an odd broadcast. Obvious hate speech, but it was the man's right to speak that way, or was it? I'd say yes, and then let him suffer the reprisals. But you mentioned restrictions on the First Amendment...I'll try to re-locate the particulars of that case if you're interested. Had the bill number and everything. I agree that would be the end of America...or the beginning of the end...but I think its already under way.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Amos
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 04:11 PM

DG:

Obviously you are mixing with the wrong crowd. Anyone who would jump to a racism stance when an individual person -- regardless of their faith was being criticized in a constructive, or intelligent, or specific way -- not an ad hominem way -- is obviosuly an arm-waving loony given to broad generalizations and incapable of clear precise thought.

Either that or the "criticisms" were actually personal, or wide meaningless generalizations like the one you posted above ("Yet if you criticize a Jew, it is sometimes made out to be 'racism'. The opening link may have been a lousy one to use in starting this thread in order to get to this point, but yes, that is my fundamental problem with the 'anti-semitism' tag. If you criticize someone of the Jewish religious group, you are a racist"). May I suggest you find a more discrominating group of associates to talk to, and strive mightily to be worthy of their company?

A

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 04:42 PM

It's a common enough thing for people to be accused of anti-Semitism for criticizing the government of Israel. And it's not just arm-waving loonies who do it. Sometimes it's just normal people of various faiths and ethnic backgrounds who have been taught to believe that only anti-Semites would criticize the government of Israel. Denying that this is the case won't fix the situation. As with all generalizations about people, the only way to correct it is to educate people about it.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: SINSULL
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 06:50 PM

Dreaded Guest,
I believe you ar ereferring to the law passed in Pennsylvania. Agape Press covers it. It does not ban preaching against homosexuality from the pulpit. It does mandate stiffer penalties for hate crimes. As i understand it, if a preacher suggests to his congregation that they should go out and harm or harrass homosexuals or murder abortionists, he will be held liable. This type of legislation brought down the KKK. IMHO, just another form of "Don't yell 'FIRE' in a movie theater unless there is one."

Partial Article:
(AgapePress) - Pastors in Pennsylvania are facing a new state law today that could mean they will be charged for simply preaching against homosexuality.

On Monday, the Ethnic Intimidation law in Pennsylvania called for longer jail terms and higher fines for crimes motivated by hatred against victims because of race, color, religion, or national origin. But with the stroke of a pen on Tuesday, Governor Mark Schweiker signed legislation amending that law to include the phrase: "ancestry, mental or physical disability, sexual orientation, gender, or gender identity."

So what does that mean? According to The Washington Times, it means that someone who is convicted of attacking a homosexual because of his sexual orientation would face a longer jail term and stiffer fines -- just as a person does now for targeting a racial minority.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Sam L
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 07:18 PM

Well, sure DG, I've seen that--I once worked with a Jewish picture framer who, if you had to ask him to re-do some sloppy work, would go off muttering about how after thousands of years of persecution, he's not surprised.... It was hilarious. You can resent a slander without trying to parse it.

But unless you have some worries about yourself, I think you just have to stare it down. What else are you going to do? Arguing it out only gets worse, like a piece of tape on your finger and you try to get it off and it sticks to your other hand and etc. In the example you raised I'd just stick to free speech issues and ignore the Jewish/race/ belief/Sammy Davis jr etc., it's like a Zionist infection. You'll end up with Lincoln, who was not a Jew, but rejected Jesus, does that make him vaguely Jew-ish? You'll be trying to figure out Dylan's born again stuff--Dude, turn back! It's beside the point, one hopes. So leave it there.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: musicmick
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 09:17 PM

I should have known better than to try to convince you geniuses that a Jew might know more about what defines a Jew than you do. I foolishly thought that this thread was an attempt at enlightened discourse rather than just another bash the Jews forum. Adolf Hitler understood who was and was not a Jew. He did his sorting out by bloodline, not by belief. Centuries of Pogrom and massacre by the Cossacks and the peasants of Russia and the Ukraine, the Khmelnitski atrocities against the Polish Jews when 6000 Jews were slaughtered, in none of these occasions did the murderers ask if the Jews they were killing were pious, reformed or non-believers. It seems to suit the politics of this discussion group to believe that Jews are those who choose to be Jews. (I have heard that same argument used to discriminate against Gays) I also love that you dont see why there should be a Jewish state but I have yet to see you objecting to Arab states. I guess you have answered the question in the heading. What is Anti-Semitism. You are.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 10:00 PM

Do you think you're the only Jew in this forum, musicmic? And where on this thread did the subject of whether or not there should be a Jewish State come up?

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 10:09 PM

You know, musicmic, one of the things that people use as a benchmark of racism and bigotry is the practice of generalizing behaviors of some members of a group to the group as a whole. You seem to be saying that everyone in this forum is an antisemite based on the behavior of a small number of people here in this thread. Maybe you're the racist/bigot.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 10:45 PM

Well, musicmic, with the genome project well under way, perhaps you can point out for us where the "Jewishness gene" hangs out in the DNA molecule.

Golly! Perhaps sometime in the near future, religious belief can be controlled through gene splicing. I can think of a couple of religious groups that would really like that.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 11:43 PM

The DNA argument...I recall reading how we could all be traced back to a common female in Africa. Eve. Millions of years ago. Remember that? So that makes me, a white guy in Texas, in reality a black woman from Africa. Yeah...DNA is a GREAT argument for settling theological discussions.

Musicmic is a good case in point of what I'm talking about. And I don't know, but Jews should be worried about passing protectionary laws, even if they benefit Jews for the moment. There are a lot more non-Jews in America, and we are going a bit fascist in our governmental ways, it seems. It's open season on Arabs right now, but who's next? Arabs are semites too, according to Merriam-Webster, and are Jews filing lawsuits to stop Arab children from being beaten to death at Camp X-Ray in Guantanamo? If not, then THAT is anti-semitism.

And it WAS Schweiker I was thinking of. Of course the fundamentalist site I saw that article on made a lot bigger deal out of it than is described by Sinsull, but damn, people SHOULD make a big deal out of the restriction of freedom of speech. The preacher I heard talking about Schweiker signing the legislation said it DID extend to speech and a church could be closed because of preaching against homosexuals. I'd have to go back and look at the wording of the bill, but I think the preacher was right. And that's just plain un-American. The preacher should be allowed to talk however he wants, and then pay the PERSONAL consequences. Have his business or church boycotted, lose his radio show because of a drop in advertising revenue, etc. But he shouldn't be fined by the govt. The govt cannot restrict freedom of speech in the US.

I just wanted to clarify what anti-semitism was, and suddenly I'm a Jew basher. Lots of touchy people in the world.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 12:18 AM

Dreaded Guest, you say you wanted to clarify what anti-Semitism was- I think you only said what you think is not anti-Semitism. What do you think is anti-Semitism?

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 12:22 AM

You have just discovered how being accused of antisemitism works, DG. You are now guilty merely by accusation, and must struggle to prove yourself innocent. No amount of struggling will suffice, in all probability, to mollify those who have accused you. In fact, the more you struggle to explain yourself, the guiltier you will look.

If you were a politician, you would be in very deep trouble.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: musicmick
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 02:08 AM

The question in the Middle East is and has always been the legitimacy of the Jewish state. The war which began in 1948 was fought over this issue and this issue, only. If those erudites whose opinions have been fouling up this thread with misinformation, had bothered to check the history of this war, they would have uncovered that little tidbit on their own. The Moslem religious right understands this and has steadfastly refused to accept the state of Israel under any circumstances. They are no more interested in Palestinian rights than George Bush is about health care. There was no talk about Palestinian rights or a Palestinian state when that region was controled by Turkey, or by absentee Egyptian and Syrian landlords. I am bringing these points up to suggest that the corespondants to this thread are either uninformed or biased. If I have assumed the latter, I assure you that I would prefer to be mistaken. It is just that the history of this conflict is so recent that I thought everyone knew about it.
I might have a more tolerant view of the motives of these corespondants if I found an equal number of threads condemning terrorist attacks directed specificly at civilians, bombs at bus terminals, skyjackings, school bombings. I am not blind to the anti-Israeli bias in this thread. If there are Jews among the corespondants, they should recognize their vulnerability. We are a funny race. Sometimes we become assimilated enough to think that our ethnic identity is no more cogent than the color of our hair. We maintain just enough tradition to please our parents or the memory of our parents. Yet, within those traditions, is a seed of unity, a sense of family, as it were. Last week, I attended a Passover seder at the home of a very modern and very American and very anti-war friend. There was lots of responsive reading from the hagadah, most of which was as passed over as the Malech Hamovis (Angel of Death) avoiding the bloodstained doors of the Jews in bondage. The irony of this seder was when the story of the four sons is told, the "wicked" son is so called because he detaches himself from his ancestors in bondage. He thinks of himself as being above the tribulations and dangers that befall his family. For, as the story suggests, all of us are who we are and who we were and where we come from.
I am a Jew by birth. I am an American by birth and by choice. I am an Israeli by liniage and history. I am old enough to remember WW2 and the concentration camps. I have lived in a world that ignored the plight of the Jews until their oppressors became a threat to the Christian world. I understand, all too well, why there is a need for a Jewish state.
I also understand the history and psychology of anti-semitism. It is as rooted in western culture as White supremecy. (No white, including me, is immune to anti-Black racism. It is a cultural legacy. It can only be combatted by awareness. Similarly, no Christian can escape the reality of the anti-Jewish bias. It is rooted in deicide and reinforced by centuries of segregation and distrust.)
Well, I'm done. I leave you with a sincere wish for shalom.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 02:59 AM

Well, I certainly am not trying to act biased. I don't think I've displayed bias here. But I've seen some displayed.

What I find most odd in pondering this thread is how Hitler can be so reviled as a 'racist' because of his Aryan beliefs...reviled by folks who attach such importance to genetic lineage themselves. Do any of the rest of you think that is odd? To advance in the Jewish religion, apparently, you have to have certain genetic credentials, just like you had to have certain Aryan credentials to advance in Hitler's world. If I am wrong in making this observation, I apologize to any who might be offended, but if I'm right, has this point ever been addressed?

Pride of heritage is great, but when you condemn others because they don't bow down to your belief system, then your group has some problems. I've never discussed anti-semitism before, but this experience with it is fairly distressing. Sounds like very little deviation is accepted among Jews, but that doesn't give them the right to extend their rigid code to others. Not in America, at least.

I have no idea what anti-semitism is, Ebbie. That's why I asked.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 06:33 AM

From one point of view the definition of "who is a Jew" doesn't rest with Jews. It rests with the anti-semites, and on who they choose to persecute or discriminate against as Jews. And they are typically more concerned about "bloodlines" than religion or even culture. Though I imagine that they'd be quite willing to extend the definition to include converts to Judaism and so forth, or people who exhibited cultural affinities, such as liking Klezmer music.

However the same kind of attitudes that show up as anti-semitism show up in regard to other minorities. Whether bigotry against Arabs qualifies as anti-semitism is a matter of semantics, but it's cut from the same cloth, and it appeals to the same shadowy place in the mind. I get the impression that for some people in parts of the right which have historically been anti-semitic, it has provided a convenient displacement mechanism, satisfying the same felt need - and it can be combined with expressions of support for Israel. A guilt-free alternative. Except it's not.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: artbrooks
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 08:56 AM

Musicmic: DG is a familiar irrational, and there are a couple of other people here who are known for having one-sided opinions on some issues. Keep cool, chaver.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Sam L
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 09:38 AM

Gee whiz, y'all. I think it's an error to focus a question of free speech on Jewish identity--it makes it look like like that's the point, which makes it look like an anti-semitic agenda.

Musicmic, so... I take it Hitler understood anti-semitism? I'll try to remember that.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 11:04 AM

I was right, musicmic. You are a racist and a bigot. You don't get to define my motives by virtue of what you think they should be, based on your own biases and agendas.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Pied Piper
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 11:38 AM

Hi musicmic.
   You seen consider yourself one of Gods Chosen people, and that you have a right to steel land and water from the Palestinians on the basis that God gave it to you 4000 years ago.
Tell me; how does anyone negotiate a peace with this attitude prevailing.
The Nazis did it to us is not an acceptable excuse for cultural genocide.

Salam
Shalom

PP

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 11:38 AM

Art...I HAD no opinion on anti-semitism before I started this thread. I live near the Mexican border. Most of the people around me are Latino, and THAT is the racial/cultural thing I'm forced by politicians and religious leaders and the news media to focus on. The people around me are just people, until they're reminded their folks were from Mexico or Texas, etc. I just get tired of the Al Sharpton vs David Duke mentality everyone buys into, then I see an article where Jews get kid glove treatment and recall how that religion has tried to present itself as a 'race' in the past, so I have to ask what it's all about. And in the process I'm reminded of the Jews' obsession with genetics, which smacks of Aryan-supremacy. What a wacky world. And I had NOTHING to do with making that part of the world...I'm just trying to figure out why I should lose my freedom of speech because a group of people want to follow a particular belief system.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 12:05 PM

musicmic - You are quite correct that the Muslim religious fundamentalists question the legitimacy of the Israeli state and wish to destroy it. You are also right that the Muslim "religious right" is dangerous. I have focused on the danger they pose in a number of posts I have done about the Wahabbis in Saudi Arabia. It is my opinion that those people planned and carried out the WTC and Pentagon attacks, and have been behind other acts of terrorism...and that they pose a danger not only to Jews and Americans, but also to moderate Muslims everywhere.

I am just as critical of Muslim-inspired terror as I am of Israeli-inspired terror. And I am also critical of American-inspired terror. You could say that I'm anti-terrorist, and that would be accurate...but you might better just say that I'm pro-human.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 12:14 PM

Talk about making a mountain out of a molehill. Dreaded Guest, so that's all you're concerned about- whether Jews should or should not consider themselves a race that they believe were/are God's Chosen People and entitled to their ancestral homeland, and that in doing so they may be racist themselves? Lighten up. Christianity itself is predicated on the same belief. Arabs, for all I know, may also consider themselves to be among those God chose- I understand the difference consists of different brothers.

Even if you don't believe in the concept of a Jewish 'race', keep in mind that a bigot on any subject can be as deluded and harmful as the classic racist. The harm is in what acts they pursue. What a person believes in his heart of hearts and in the privacy of his own home cannot be regulated- what he does and espouses in the outside world can.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 12:57 PM

With appologies to Tom Paxton, "what did you learn at Mudcat today, dear little boy of mine?"

From Dreaded Guest I learned that antisemites who do not consider Jews to be a race cannot be considered to be racist.

From CarolC I learned that musicmic is a racist and a bigot becuase he believes in Israel as a Jewish homeland.

And that's what I learned at Mudcat today. Oy vey, oy vey, oy vey.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 01:02 PM

From CarolC I learned that musicmic is a racist and a bigot becuase he believes in Israel as a Jewish homeland.

No. You learned that he is a racist and a bigot because he assumed that I don't believe in Israel as a Jewish homeland based on nothing other than the stereotypes he holds of people who are not Jewish.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 01:16 PM

One in five Israelis are not in any sense Jewish, they are the remnant of the Arab population who did not go into exile.

If the people who went into exile, and their children, were allowed to return home the figure would be round one in two. Insofar as the reason they can't return home is because that would mean it wasn't a Jewish homeland any more, I can't see how that can escape being open to the charge of racism.

Israel has a "right of return" that only applies to people from the Jewish Disapora, and not from the Palestinian Diaspora. Perhaps there may be arguments which can be raised in defence of that - but they would have to be arguments that accepted that it is a racist policy, and found some way of seeking to justify it, even so.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 01:29 PM

I just don't want ANY religious group denying freedom of speech in America, Ebbie, and lawmakers seem quick to grant concessions when it comes to race. And the Jews aren't a race anymore than the Methodists are. THAT'S why I'm splitting hairs over inherited traits vs voluntary beliefs.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 01:37 PM

For crying out loud DG, when anti-semites are around being Jewish isn't a matter of "voluntary beliefs". Someone from a Jewish family could be an atheist, a Catholic, or a Buddhist, they'd still be liable to get the same treatment. Hitler didn't worry about things like that, and nor do his fans.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 02:03 PM

We had a politician (from my home town) during the last elections (Wilfried may mean that incident; however, I recollect it completely different) who used this tactic ad nauseam:
He singled out a prominent German Jew, made a nasty antisemitic remark about him and also criticised Sharon's politics. His antisemitic remark was called 'antisemitic' by the prominent Jew (but not only by him). Then the politician in all his know public speeches never forgot to include this line of 'reasoning': I am a man who stands here and dares to criticise Sharon's politics and I shall never refrain from doing so even if I am called antisemitic.

He had been called antisemitic and he had criticised Sharon's politics but the two had nothing in common (except that they had happened the same week). Nobody had ever called him antisemitic for criticising Sharon's politics but he made the connection over and over as if this was something of validity. His endless repetition of the sentence 'If it is antisemitic to criticise Sharon then I may be called an antisemite' came over as fishing for sympathies from outspoken antisemites.

Here in this thread, I've counted more than two dozen repetitions of the 'it isn't antisemtic to criticise the Israeli government' argument. It is a correct argument as has been pointed out, among others, by musicmic. I have failed to find any post in support of such a position and I have even failed to find any link or any citation in any post pointing out that a sizeable part of the population believes in such an argument. So why is it repeated over and over without any opposition?

I cannot help but being reminded of the tactics of the German politician.

"It is not racist to point out that some African governments are very lousy". No, it isn't but if this argument would be repeated over and over without any opposition to it I would start slowly asking myself about the motives of those using it.

Musicmic a racist and bigot? I have read his posts over and over and still fail to see even the slightest reason for such a condemnation.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 02:23 PM

musicmic has declared everyone in this forum an anti-semite, Wolfgang. And he justifies it by making a lot of assumptions about the people here, most particularly about the ones who are not Jewish. If someone does that sort of thing to Jews, they are called "anti-Semites". If one does that sort of thing to Blacks, they are called racists. Making assumptions about people based on your stereotypes of the group to which they belong is racist and/or bigoted. Same set of rules for everyone.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 02:30 PM

Yes, Carol, I have read your assertion before your repetition here, I just fail to see any basis for it.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 02:45 PM

Well, Wolfgang, you have admitted to me that you have biases of your own in this regard. Maybe those biases are clouding your vision a bit.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 03:30 PM

Maybe it's different in Gernmany, Wolfgang, but in the letter columns and the papers here it is very common indeed for people to be accused of being anti-semitic because they are critical of Israel.

True enough, there are anti-semites who anti-Zionism as a camouflage, just as there are supporters of Israel who use the label of "anti-semite" as a way of defusing and deflecting criticism.

In a way there is an analogy between what happens in this context and what happens in the Intifada. Terrorist attacks cause horrible damage to innocent people - but the effect is to make it easier for the extremist givernment in Israel to maintain its position. If there was an end to terrorism, their hold on power would be in danger.

And much the same is true about anti-semitism. And by branding people who are not anti-semitic in this way, it becomes easier for the real anti-semites to operate and to spread their poison.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 03:35 PM

McGrath is right. In the United States, it is expected that if you criticize the Israeli government you will be accused of anti-Semitism.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 03:43 PM

McGrath is right. In the United States, it is expected that if you criticize the Israeli government you will be accused of anti-Semitism.

Except if you're Jewish. In the US if you're Jewish and you criticize the Israeli government, you can anticipate being called a "traitor" and/or a "self-hating Jew".

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: musicmick
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 03:44 PM

I suppose that the term, race, is inappropriate if it is used to define the Jews. Nation is more accurate (a nation is an allience of tribes) but modern times have redefined ancient words. I do not use the term, "racists", to describe those who appear biased against the Jews. For those folks, we use the term, "anti-Semites", even though that is not, technically, correct. It is also undeniably proper to include other tribal survivors from that area in the nation. I doubt that they (the Hashemites, the Bedoins, the Druze, etc) would wish to be Jews but, if they did, I would welcome them back into the family.
And it is a family, not better or worse than other families. If we are different than other tribes or nations or peoples, it is only that we have managed to survive, pretty much intact, for thousands of years and, until 1948, we did it as strangers in many strange lands.
I hold no grudge with Moslems in general or Palestinians in particular. I believe that the Palestinians should have a state of their own. My experience as a Jew has shown me the need for a people to have their own state. The Palestinians have been exploited for centuries because, without their own state, they were forced to work for others, often in other Arab countries. Like the Irish in England and the Chinese in America, the Palestinians provided cheap labor for wealthier Arab landowners. (Here's a little ammo for my adversaries. The Israelis have used them as underpaid labor, too. It is only the power of the Histadrut, the national labor union, that has required equal pay for Arabs and Jews. But Bosses are bosses the world around and I have no doubt that non resident Palestinian, Syrian and Lebonese
workers are often taken advantage of.)
I do have one hell of a bone to pick with people who want to kill me or my children. I am intolerant of terrorists. I dont care why they want to kill me or my children. Frankly, Our lives are not negotiable.
I will not lay down and die to satisfy someone else's political agenda. I dont hurt other people, I dont exploit other people, I dont
kill other people who have things I want. I dont deserve to be killed.
Neither do you, Carol. Your politics and your motives may be an affront to me, but I dont think, for one minute, that you should be killed for them. Sincere people can disagree. They can even be pejudiced in their beliefs. But Israel, and now the USA, are dealing with an enemy who kill without concience or apparent motive, and an enemy who kill non combatents in random lands. That you cannot see the unique danger posed by these groups suggests, to me, either blinders or an anti_jewish predisposition.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 04:09 PM

You don't even know what my politics or motives are, musicmic. Why make assumptions? Why not just ask?

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 04:24 PM

There's a lot of killing "without conscience" going on, on both sides. Not "without motive", there's always a motive of some kind, but that doesn't make it any better. Its main effect is to ensure that the other side keeps on returning the favour.

"I dont care why they want to kill me or my children. Frankly, Our lives are not negotiable." There are plenty of people who could say that. On both sides.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 04:25 PM

CarolC, your politics have been expounded ad nauseum in many of the 6,781 posts that you've made to Mudcat under your name. Anyone who can read and knows how to find Mudcat can know your politics.

As for your motives, they can be surmised by the obsessions you've repeatedly demonstrated.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 05:00 PM

"under your name"...

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 05:04 PM

My post was directed to musicmic, GUEST, not to you. But since you say you know my posting history so intimately, you'll know which groups of people I have stuck up for, unconditionally, in the Mudcat at various times in the past. And if you don't, then you're just a blowhard who is looking to get a rise out of me.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 05:28 PM

Yes, McGrath, I said "under your name" when counting CarolC's posts.

Like many others, CarolC has deleted her cookie and posted as a guest on certain occasions. I don't know how many times she's done that. That's why I specified "under your name" when quantifying her posts. I have no idea how many posts she's made as a guest.

Now, I don't have any problem with deleting cookies and posting as a guest. I do it, CarolC does it, for all I know, maybe you do it too.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 05:41 PM

Very clever, GUEST. If I deny it, I look guilty, if I admit it, I look guilty, if I ignore it, I look guilty. I'm not biting.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 08:39 PM

My post was directed to musicmic, GUEST, not to you.

I thought PMs were for personal messages and forum posts were for everybody.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 09:19 PM

No matter what you may think of CarolC and what she posts, GUEST, at least she has the integrity to post using her name. Now, just who in the hell are you?

Don Firth