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BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
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Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 29 Apr 03 - 09:24 PM Noone, pretty obviously. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism? From: DougR Date: 30 Apr 03 - 01:38 AM Do the Palestinians REALLY want a country of their own? Today's bombing on the day rememberances of the Holocaust was being observed, and at almost the precise moment the Palestinian Parliment was electing a new PM doesn't appear to help their cause any, IMO. The new PM was announcing plans to disarm terrorists groups in Palestine, including Hammas almost at the same time that the bomber blew himself and others up outside an American owned bar. Carol C? DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism? From: musicmick Date: 30 Apr 03 - 01:52 AM My name is Mike Miller. I have often signed my postings. I am not reluctant to stand up for what I believe. When Carol's ass is on the line, when Carol's children are living under immediate threat for no reason except that they are her children, when her life and her home and her family are the targets, I will take notice of her couragious and selfless positions. Ask her what her politics are? I am not blind. Nor am I illiterate. She is (or thinks she is) a safe and secure non combatent who stands on the side clucking, "That's nice, dont fight." while my people are being killed for living in a state that was created (but never defended) by the United Nations. Her every comment in this thread has shown that she values Israeli lives less than Palestinian lives. I have no problem with Palestinians who place a higher value on their own lives than they do mine. I dont even question why other Arabs identify with the Palestinians. I can understand that Moslems would side with Moslems. They know who their enemies are and so do I. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism? From: NicoleC Date: 30 Apr 03 - 01:57 AM I don't thinkthere's any reasonable basis to judge Palestinians as whole by the actions today (or any other terrorist act), particularly when the timing seemed designed to do the most damage to the peace process. It's like asking if all Americans REALLY want anarachy, because there are anacharists that deliberately destroy property, or all Americans are survivalists because of some paramilitary cults that think blowing up federal buildings is a good way to achieve their aims.. I do think if they can get an acceptable truce going with real progress toward a final solution -- and Sharon SAYS he supports ending the settlements which will be a big help in that direction -- the general Palestinian public might be less passive about the presence of the terrorists groups. It's like when you hear about a vigilante that's stalking muggers -- you think to yourself he's wrong, but a frustrated part of you kind of wants to cheer him on... no wait, it's WRONG, I hope they catch the guy... but, wait, the muggers are bad guys, too... |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism? From: GUEST Date: 30 Apr 03 - 02:41 AM Andrija Artukovic Wartime Interior Minister of the Croatian puppet state, ordered the deaths of 600,000 Jews Serbs and Gypsies. He sat for 21 years in an expensive beachfront apartment compound in Surfside. Ca. under a deportation order. Over 1000 war criminals lived in Canada after the war....Simon Weisenthal refused to visit Canada because of the lack of political will to prosecute war criminals. Many people who have little knowledge of the Holocaust, debate why we should even bother arresting and trying Nazis... The USA and Canada refused to allow persecuted displaced jews to settle, when they escaped or were driven out of Europe. The State of Israel was created by Auschwitz and Belsen and Dachau etc; and by the indifference shown to the Jews. Never Again... Interesting discussion about anti semetism, with some good points raised. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 30 Apr 03 - 07:03 AM "The State of Israel was created by Auschwitz and Belsen and Dachau"
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Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism? From: GUEST Date: 30 Apr 03 - 08:21 AM Now that Saadam is gone, who is going to pay the $25,000 to the Palestinian martyr's family? |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism? From: Forum Lurker Date: 30 Apr 03 - 08:47 AM NicoleC-I might be alone in this, but I don't really have any mixed feelings about said vigilante. The removal of the muggers probably benefits society as a whole, and probably provides greater benefit to the potential victims of those muggers than the inactivity of said vigilante would provide. As long as he doesn't hit the wrong target, I would support him wholeheartedly. Little thread drift, I suppose . . . |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism? From: GUEST Date: 30 Apr 03 - 09:18 AM McGrath of Harlow's observation: "Pretty clearly the bombing in Tel Aviv was aimed against the new Palestinian administration as much as against Israel." Especially when you consider who has taken credit for this terroristic suicide bombing. The Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, Yasser Arafat's personal militia. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism? From: Sam L Date: 30 Apr 03 - 09:44 AM Musicmic, I wouldn't call you anything based on it, but your one post did seem to swing a little wide, and left me unsure whether I or everyone was supposed to be offended by it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism? From: CarolC Date: 30 Apr 03 - 12:08 PM No musicmic, you're completely wrong. You're wrong about my positions on the conflict in the middle east, and you're wrong about a lot of other things as well. If you're looking for a dialogue, you'll ask me what my positions are. Since you're still projecting your own idea of where I stand onto me, based on your bigoted world view, I can see that you're nowhere near being ready to let go of that bigotry. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism? From: CarolC Date: 30 Apr 03 - 12:25 PM Ok, so here you go, Mike Miller, whether you ask for it or not. Believe it or not (I'm sure you won't, but that doesn't matter), you and I are pretty much in agreement about what we want for Israel/Palestine. But where we differ is on the cause and effect of the present day conflict. My position is that it is the Likud party's policies that are directly causing the violence in Israel/Palestine. During the period after the signing of the Oslo accord, and before the death of Prime Minister Rabin (a period of about two years), there were no Israelis killed by PLO terrorism. During that time, the Palestinians had hope that they would have their own country. When Netanyahu reneged on the Oslo agreement, that's when the violence started again. The Palestinians lost hope. When Netanyahu was elected, and then when Sharon was elected, it was for the Palestinians, pretty much the same as it would for Jews if an anti-Semitic neo-Nazi got elected in a country like the US. I don't consider myself and my child to be living in safety at all. I see myself and my child being put in terrible danger by the Government of Israel who seem to be hell bent on creating a massive world war complete with nuclear weapons. And I am just as saddened by the deaths of Jews as I am by the deaths of everyone else. But I blame Sharon, Netanyahu, and the rest of those war criminals for the death of every innocent Jew and every innocent Palestinian. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism? From: CarolC Date: 30 Apr 03 - 12:43 PM Forgot to mention this bit... Sharon and the Likud party want nothing less than the complete removal of all Palestinians from Israel and from the Occupied territories, and they don't care how many innocent Jews are killed to make that happen. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism? From: Burke Date: 30 Apr 03 - 09:53 PM Sorry DG, that's just not the way the world works. When a person from a totally secular non-religious upbringing & attitude has "Dirty Jew" scratched on her car, it happened because she has a physical appearance that brands her 'Jew' to the unknown anti-semite that did the damage. This happened to a good friend of mine @2 years ago. Her car was parked in the school parking lot where whe worked. The body shop fixed it for free. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism? From: Burke Date: 30 Apr 03 - 10:17 PM OOPS! A bit out of context due to reading the broken up thread & forgetting I wasn't seeing the whole thing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism? From: Little Hawk Date: 30 Apr 03 - 10:58 PM McGrath - You are quite correct that the extremists on both sides of the Israeli-Palestinian/Arab conflict "need each other, and in effect assist each other." Exactly. Just like Osama Bin Laden and the American military-industrial complex need each other. And people who argue for peace, conflict resolution, and an end to both state terrorism and non-state terrorism (by members of militias or individuals)...are considered enemies by the extremists on both sides, who don't want peace. Extremists want only one kind of peace...that which is achieved by utterly destroying their opponents. The peace of the grave, in other words...for those whom they consider beneath contempt or consideration as fellow human beings. Extremists despise people who argue for negotiation, and usually accuse those people of being "useful idiots" for the "other side" (whoever the other side happens to be). I know a Palestinian couple who own a little Shawarma restaurant in Toronto. They're utterly harmless people who came to Canada hoping for a peaceful life. They are not terrorists. I likewise know various Jews who are living quiet and peaceful lives in Canada and are not terrorists. Not all of them support the Likud goverment. Not by any means. It is intellectually dishonest to brand either Israelis or Jews or Palestinians by the actions of the most militant extremists on one side or the other, but if you criticize one party for its extremism you will be accused by them of totally favouring the other party. The accusation arises not out of understanding but out of fear, and bigotry is based upon fear. So, for that matter, are war and terrorism. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism? From: GUEST,New York City Date: 04 May 03 - 11:41 PM I guess I'm not surprised that the British suicide bombers have been linked to the International Solidarity Movement. International Solidarity Movement and the British suicide terrorists |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism? From: GUEST,New York City Date: 04 May 03 - 11:46 PM I guess I'm not surprised that the British suicide bombers have been linked to the International Solidarity Movement. The International Solidarity Movement and the British suicide terrorists |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 05 May 03 - 05:12 AM "Linked to the International Solidarity Movement" means that they went along to a memorial service for Rachel Corrie. Calling that a "link" implies something very different from that. It's a smear tactic. Here is a link to a story which indicates what "the link" actually consisted of - "C4 cameraman killed in Gaza" The headline refers to the shooting of a British television camerman by an Israeli tank as he was filming demolitions of homes. (I wonder if there are any plans to bulldoze the home where the bomber's family lived? Since he came from Derby that might be a bit tricky.) Out of the limelight, over the last few days, those killed by Israeli forces have included a two year old child, as well as a fair number of pre-adolescents. No doubt the people responsible for those killings have have been to memorial services in their time. That's a "link"? |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism? From: Wolfgang Date: 05 May 03 - 10:11 AM "Linked to the International Solidarity Movement" means that they went along to a memorial service for Rachel Corrie. (McGrath) Much more than that it seems: Bombers posed as peace activists (from the Guardian) Since the ISM explicitely "recognize(s) the Palestinian right to resist Israeli violence and occupation via legitimate armed struggle" it is no wonder that they attract such people too. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism? From: CarolC Date: 05 May 03 - 12:07 PM Is there any group of people in the world, other than the Palestinians, who anyone would say "they have no right to defend themselves against a foriegn occupier"? Since it was the actions of the German government during WWII that are cited as being the reason the Palestinians are being removed from their homes, and since it appears that all of the Palestinians are going to be chased out of Israel and the occupied territories, I think Germany should be required to give up an equivalent amount of land to what the Palestinians have had taken from them, to create the Palestinian homeland. I'm sure that Wolfgang won't mind giving up his home to make room for a family of displaced Palestinians. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 05 May 03 - 12:13 PM And if they'd applied to join a kibbutz as a cover for their trip to Israel, would that have been seen as a link between suicide bombing and the Kibbutz movement? |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism? From: GUEST,Forum Lurker Date: 05 May 03 - 01:24 PM CarolC-No one denies that the Palestinian people have a right to self-defense. Most people deny that the murder of innocents by terrorists is in any way similar to self-defense. If the Palestinians limited themselves to legitimate military targets, they might have more sympathy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism? From: CarolC Date: 05 May 03 - 01:43 PM I don't think so, Forum Lurker. They get plenty of criticism for targeting IDF forces as well. And there's just no way they can kill IDF forces without serious retaliation from the Israeli Government. I think that no matter what they do, short of just dissappearing into the mist like the Tuatha De Danann, they will be criticized and villified for it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism? From: Wolfgang Date: 05 May 03 - 01:44 PM I'm sure that Wolfgang won't mind giving up his home to make room for a family of displaced Palestinians. (Carol) You wouldn't expect me to respond to this type of argumentation, wouldn't you? Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism? From: CarolC Date: 05 May 03 - 01:47 PM I have no idea, Wolfgang. I think my post was a legitimate response to your post just preceding it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism? From: Wolfgang Date: 05 May 03 - 01:49 PM The reason some including me are a bit suspiciuos of the ISM is that this movement calls itself 'international' but is actually Palestinian-led. This suspicion doesn't include the motives of many activists which I believe to be sincere. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism? From: CarolC Date: 05 May 03 - 02:02 PM The reason some including me are a bit suspiciuos of the ISM is that this movement calls itself 'international' but is actually Palestinian-led. This statement implies that all Palestinian-led organizations, and all Palestinians, are terrorists, and are not to be trusted. That, just by virtue of being Palestinians, they automatically have no credibility. How do you think that sort of attitude would be recieved if it was directed at Jews? There are certainly Jewish led terrorist organizations, and organizations that have an agenda that is antithetical to human rights, including a sigificant faction whithin the Israeli government. Should we determine that no Jewish-led organizations should be trusted because some of them have bad agendas? I don't think so. So it seems like a pretty vicious double standard to automatically discount anything that is led by Palestinians for no reason other than that they are Palestinians. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism? From: Wolfgang Date: 05 May 03 - 02:05 PM I have no idea, Wolfgang. I think my post was a legitimate response to your post just preceding it. I have not the slightest idea what you are talking about, Carol. I had posted a minor correction to a statement by McGrath. (First sentence). Then I had posted what I think might attract suicide terrorists in the published basic paper of the ISM (Second sentence). What in those two sentences has led you to your post? Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism? From: Wolfgang Date: 05 May 03 - 02:09 PM So it seems like a pretty vicious double standard to automatically discount anything that is led by Palestinians for no reason other than that they are Palestinians. That's complete rubbish. I have neither said so not do I think so. But any organisation that is led by one party in a conflict makes me suspicious. That has nothing to do with Palestinian or not. My God, Carol, just for a change, can you try to respond to what I am actually posting and not to what you think I may be thinking. That would make it more easy. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism? From: CarolC Date: 05 May 03 - 02:10 PM What in those two sentences has led you to your post? It was this bit: Since the ISM explicitely "recognize(s) the Palestinian right to resist Israeli violence and occupation via legitimate armed struggle" it is no wonder that they attract such people too. Why shouldn't the Palestinians resist Israeli violence? Wouldn't you resist violence from a foriegn occupier in your country? Would that make you a terrorist? |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism? From: CarolC Date: 05 May 03 - 02:15 PM Sorry if I've misinterpreted anything you've said Wolfgang. But I'm having trouble seeing in what way what you're saying isn't discriminatory toward Palestinians. Please enlighten me on that one. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism? From: Wolfgang Date: 05 May 03 - 02:35 PM Carol, read my sentence again. If that doesn't help you to see that in that sentence isn't anything discriminatory about Palestinians (and that in that sentence I have nothing said (nor even meant to allude to) relating to your final questions in your post of 05 May 03 - 02:10 PM) any further explanation will not help to enlighten you. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism? From: CarolC Date: 05 May 03 - 02:44 PM I remain in the dark on that one, Wolfgang. But I guess that's my problem and not yours. If you say you don't hold disriminatory ideas about Palestinians, I'll just take your word for it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism? From: CarolC Date: 05 May 03 - 03:29 PM No one denies that the Palestinian people have a right to self-defense. I want to address this one a little further. Not only are they denied the "right" to self defense, they are also denies the means for self defense. They aren't allowed to have a military, so anyone who does anything in defense of Palestine is called a terrorist. They aren't allowed to have weapons. There is no way the Palestinians can wage a legitimate war against their occupier, which is abundantly armed with the latest high tech weaponry, when they aren't even allowed to have any weapons at all. And when the government of another country tries to provide them with weapons, the governments of the US and Israel accuse the other countries of terrorism. So just how do you propose they should conduct their "self defense" under these circumstances? |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism? From: GUEST Date: 05 May 03 - 03:53 PM I clicked to read a thread about defining anti-Semitism. Instead, it's been taken over by CarolC's usual agenda. Bye. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism? From: CarolC Date: 05 May 03 - 03:53 PM Bye |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 05 May 03 - 04:59 PM I'd take it that the "International" in "Internatuinal Solidarity Movement" has the same implication as it has in regard to the International Brigade in the Spanush Civil War - meaning that it is where people from other countries can get involved in a struggle. I can't see that the term would imply anything particular about its leadership structure. And that quote where it says that the ISM "recognize(s) the Palestinian right to resist Israeli violence and occupation via legitimate armed struggle" - surely the crucial word is "legitimate", which would exclude terror attacks on civilians. Given that proviso, while it is not a pacifist position, it is one which is actually consistent with international law. After all, the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza by Israel is in breach of numerous Security Council resolutions. The underlying factor beneath the drifting into specifics in this thread is that opposition to Israeli policies, especially occupation and repression, but also including the denial of a right of return to Palestinians, in no way implies anti-semitism. However one of the effects of the claim that opposition to Israel does imply anti-semitism is to make it easier for anti-semitism to crawl back into the light. It blurs the distinctions, and that, I would suggest, is one reason why the claim is often made. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism? From: Forum Lurker Date: 05 May 03 - 05:19 PM CarolC-I hope that you are not defending the actions of Palestinian terrorist organizations on the basis that they don't have an army. Blacks in South Africa didn't have an army, and they didn't win their independence through the indiscriminate massacre of Afrikaaners and the "colored" population. Terrorism is neither moral nor effective; rather it encourages tactics which lead to more Palestinian civilian deaths, and entrenches both sides too deeply to move. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism? From: CarolC Date: 05 May 03 - 05:23 PM How did the Blacks in South Africa win their independence, Forum Lurker? |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism? From: NicoleC Date: 05 May 03 - 06:04 PM There were certainly anti-apartheid terrorists organizations, but in retrospect they don't seem to have been any more effective than Palestinian or Israeli terrorism at bringing about peace and social change. In the case of South Africa, I'm not sure we can entirely credit the passive resistance movement either. World opinion was brought to bear against South Africa, which gave the anti-apartheid activists a boost. Given the prevailing anti-Arab sentiment in the West and the US's unconditional support of Israel even when Israel's government acts against international law, it sees unlikely that the Palestians will be able to repeat the astounding success seen in South Africa. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism? From: CarolC Date: 05 May 03 - 06:08 PM World opinion was brought to bear against South Africa, which gave the anti-apartheid activists a boost. Given the prevailing anti-Arab sentiment in the West and the US's unconditional support of Israel even when Israel's government acts against international law, it sees unlikely that the Palestians will be able to repeat the astounding success seen in South Africa. This is pretty much what I was thinking. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 05 May 03 - 06:26 PM "Given the prevailing anti-Arab sentiment in the West" - if you leave aside the USA I wouldn't really think that anti-Arab sentiment is particularly prevailing. Of course the USA outweighs everyone else, but it'd perhaps be more accurate really to say "prevailing anti-Arab sentiment in the USA". I'm not sure if the expression "the West" really has too much current applicability. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism? From: GUEST, heric Date: 05 May 03 - 06:54 PM I don't know what you mean by "prevailing anti-Arab sentiment in the USA," and I wouldn't accept it at face value. Does this mean that greater than fifty percent of United States citizens would like to "kill'em all," or does it mean something more specific? |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism? From: CarolC Date: 05 May 03 - 07:37 PM CarolC-I hope that you are not defending the actions of Palestinian terrorist organizations on the basis that they don't have an army. To be honest, if the internationals aren't going to be allowed in the Occupied Territories any longer, I think it's pretty much over for the Palestinians in Israel and the Occupied Territories. I think we'll be seeing them all gone from there within the next ten years if they don't start getting a lot more international support, and support from the US very soon. As far as I can see, the presence of internationals was their only hope. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism? From: Forum Lurker Date: 05 May 03 - 10:15 PM CarolC-You didn't answer my question. Do you or do you not consider terrorist attacks a valid and moral tool for the Palestinian people? Further, why do you think that things are going to change considerably from the way they have been in the last 30+ years? |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism? From: CarolC Date: 05 May 03 - 10:33 PM CarolC-You didn't answer my question. Do you or do you not consider terrorist attacks a valid and moral tool for the Palestinian people? I do not consider any attacks against civilians a valid or moral tool for anyone to use against another people, whether it's Palestinians who are doing it, or the IDF. If the Palestinians attack military personnel, in the absence of a "recognised" military of their own, I don't think I would categorize them as "terrorists". Further, why do you think that things are going to change considerably from the way they have been in the last 30+ years? What makes you think what I said means I think anything is going to change? The expulsion of all Palestinians from Israel and the Occupied Territories looks to me like nothing more than the completion of a process that was started even before the inception of the State of Israel. The change would be if this process were to be stopped before it is completed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism? From: CarolC Date: 05 May 03 - 10:37 PM Let me rephrase this: "If, in defense of their homes, their land, or their citizens, the Palestinians attack Israeli military personnel, and they do it in the absence of a "recognised" military of their own, I don't think I would categorize them as "terrorists"." |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism? From: Little Hawk Date: 05 May 03 - 11:54 PM Actually, anyone who deliberately uses terror to intimidate and control and drive out other people IS, in my opinion, a terrorist. This means that the following have been terrorists at various times in the recent past, and probably will be again: Palestinian suicide bombers. The Israeli Defence Forces and Police. The USA Armed Forces. Al Queda. Hammas. Saddam Hussein. Hezbollah. Islamic Jihad. The Tamil Tigers. The Sri Lankan Defence Forces. The Taliban. The Northern Alliance. And so on, and so on, and so on....wherever you find innocent (or guilty) blood being spilled wantonly...there you have found terrorism. The pot, as usual, is calling the kettle black. They're both black. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism? From: DougR Date: 06 May 03 - 02:21 AM U.S.A Armed Forces, L. H.? That's quite a reach, isn't it? Terrorists? Why did you leave out the British? The Polis? The Australians? They were all involved, as well as forty plus other nations in the recent conflict in Iraq. DougR |