BS: What is Anti-Semitism?

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 12:43 PM

Forgot to mention this bit...

Sharon and the Likud party want nothing less than the complete removal of all Palestinians from Israel and from the Occupied territories, and they don't care how many innocent Jews are killed to make that happen.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 12:25 PM

Ok, so here you go, Mike Miller, whether you ask for it or not. Believe it or not (I'm sure you won't, but that doesn't matter), you and I are pretty much in agreement about what we want for Israel/Palestine. But where we differ is on the cause and effect of the present day conflict. My position is that it is the Likud party's policies that are directly causing the violence in Israel/Palestine.

During the period after the signing of the Oslo accord, and before the death of Prime Minister Rabin (a period of about two years), there were no Israelis killed by PLO terrorism. During that time, the Palestinians had hope that they would have their own country. When Netanyahu reneged on the Oslo agreement, that's when the violence started again. The Palestinians lost hope. When Netanyahu was elected, and then when Sharon was elected, it was for the Palestinians, pretty much the same as it would for Jews if an anti-Semitic neo-Nazi got elected in a country like the US.

I don't consider myself and my child to be living in safety at all. I see myself and my child being put in terrible danger by the Government of Israel who seem to be hell bent on creating a massive world war complete with nuclear weapons. And I am just as saddened by the deaths of Jews as I am by the deaths of everyone else. But I blame Sharon, Netanyahu, and the rest of those war criminals for the death of every innocent Jew and every innocent Palestinian.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 12:08 PM

No musicmic, you're completely wrong. You're wrong about my positions on the conflict in the middle east, and you're wrong about a lot of other things as well. If you're looking for a dialogue, you'll ask me what my positions are. Since you're still projecting your own idea of where I stand onto me, based on your bigoted world view, I can see that you're nowhere near being ready to let go of that bigotry.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Sam L
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 09:44 AM

Musicmic, I wouldn't call you anything based on it, but your one post did seem to swing a little wide, and left me unsure whether I or everyone was supposed to be offended by it.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 09:18 AM

McGrath of Harlow's observation: "Pretty clearly the bombing in Tel Aviv was aimed against the new Palestinian administration as much as against Israel."

Especially when you consider who has taken credit for this terroristic suicide bombing. The Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, Yasser Arafat's personal militia.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 08:47 AM

NicoleC-I might be alone in this, but I don't really have any mixed feelings about said vigilante. The removal of the muggers probably benefits society as a whole, and probably provides greater benefit to the potential victims of those muggers than the inactivity of said vigilante would provide. As long as he doesn't hit the wrong target, I would support him wholeheartedly.

Little thread drift, I suppose . . .

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 08:21 AM

Now that Saadam is gone, who is going to pay the $25,000 to the Palestinian martyr's family?

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 07:03 AM

"The State of Israel was created by Auschwitz and Belsen and Dachau"

True. The Palestinians have paid, and are still paying, the price for what people elsewhere, especially in Europe, did to the Jews.

Pretty clearly the bombing in Tel Aviv was aimed against the new Palestinian administration as much as against Israel. The extremists on both sides need each other, and in effect assist each other. (By which I do not mean they sit down together and agree tactics, but that the effect of their actions is to strengthen the position of their opposite numbers, the people who share their belief that violence is the way.)

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 02:41 AM

Andrija Artukovic Wartime Interior Minister of the Croatian puppet state, ordered the deaths of 600,000 Jews Serbs and Gypsies. He sat for 21 years in an expensive beachfront apartment compound in Surfside. Ca. under a deportation order. Over 1000 war criminals lived in Canada after the war....Simon Weisenthal refused to visit Canada because of the lack of political will to prosecute war criminals.

Many people who have little knowledge of the Holocaust, debate why we should even bother arresting and trying Nazis... The USA and Canada refused to allow persecuted displaced jews to settle, when they escaped or were driven out of Europe. The State of Israel was created by Auschwitz and Belsen and Dachau etc; and by the indifference shown to the Jews. Never Again...

Interesting discussion about anti semetism, with some good points raised.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: NicoleC
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 01:57 AM

I don't thinkthere's any reasonable basis to judge Palestinians as whole by the actions today (or any other terrorist act), particularly when the timing seemed designed to do the most damage to the peace process.

It's like asking if all Americans REALLY want anarachy, because there are anacharists that deliberately destroy property, or all Americans are survivalists because of some paramilitary cults that think blowing up federal buildings is a good way to achieve their aims..

I do think if they can get an acceptable truce going with real progress toward a final solution -- and Sharon SAYS he supports ending the settlements which will be a big help in that direction -- the general Palestinian public might be less passive about the presence of the terrorists groups.

It's like when you hear about a vigilante that's stalking muggers -- you think to yourself he's wrong, but a frustrated part of you kind of wants to cheer him on... no wait, it's WRONG, I hope they catch the guy... but, wait, the muggers are bad guys, too...

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: musicmick
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 01:52 AM

My name is Mike Miller. I have often signed my postings. I am not reluctant to stand up for what I believe. When Carol's ass is on the line, when Carol's children are living under immediate threat for no reason except that they are her children, when her life and her home and her family are the targets, I will take notice of her couragious and selfless positions. Ask her what her politics are? I am not blind. Nor am I illiterate. She is (or thinks she is) a safe and secure non combatent who stands on the side clucking, "That's nice, dont fight." while my people are being killed for living in a state that was created (but never defended) by the United Nations. Her every comment in this thread has shown that she values Israeli lives less than Palestinian lives. I have no problem with Palestinians who place a higher value on their own lives than they do mine. I dont even question why other Arabs identify with the Palestinians. I can understand that Moslems would side with Moslems. They know who their enemies are and so do I.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: DougR
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 01:38 AM

Do the Palestinians REALLY want a country of their own? Today's bombing on the day rememberances of the Holocaust was being observed, and at almost the precise moment the Palestinian Parliment was electing a new PM doesn't appear to help their cause any, IMO. The new PM was announcing plans to disarm terrorists groups in Palestine, including Hammas almost at the same time that the bomber blew himself and others up outside an American owned bar.

Carol C?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 09:24 PM

Noone, pretty obviously.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 09:19 PM

No matter what you may think of CarolC and what she posts, GUEST, at least she has the integrity to post using her name. Now, just who in the hell are you?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 08:39 PM

My post was directed to musicmic, GUEST, not to you.

I thought PMs were for personal messages and forum posts were for everybody.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 05:41 PM

Very clever, GUEST. If I deny it, I look guilty, if I admit it, I look guilty, if I ignore it, I look guilty. I'm not biting.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 05:28 PM

Yes, McGrath, I said "under your name" when counting CarolC's posts.

Like many others, CarolC has deleted her cookie and posted as a guest on certain occasions. I don't know how many times she's done that. That's why I specified "under your name" when quantifying her posts. I have no idea how many posts she's made as a guest.

Now, I don't have any problem with deleting cookies and posting as a guest. I do it, CarolC does it, for all I know, maybe you do it too.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 05:04 PM

My post was directed to musicmic, GUEST, not to you. But since you say you know my posting history so intimately, you'll know which groups of people I have stuck up for, unconditionally, in the Mudcat at various times in the past. And if you don't, then you're just a blowhard who is looking to get a rise out of me.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 05:00 PM

"under your name"...

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 04:25 PM

CarolC, your politics have been expounded ad nauseum in many of the 6,781 posts that you've made to Mudcat under your name. Anyone who can read and knows how to find Mudcat can know your politics.

As for your motives, they can be surmised by the obsessions you've repeatedly demonstrated.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 04:24 PM

There's a lot of killing "without conscience" going on, on both sides. Not "without motive", there's always a motive of some kind, but that doesn't make it any better. Its main effect is to ensure that the other side keeps on returning the favour.

"I dont care why they want to kill me or my children. Frankly, Our lives are not negotiable." There are plenty of people who could say that. On both sides.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 04:09 PM

You don't even know what my politics or motives are, musicmic. Why make assumptions? Why not just ask?

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: musicmick
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 03:44 PM

I suppose that the term, race, is inappropriate if it is used to define the Jews. Nation is more accurate (a nation is an allience of tribes) but modern times have redefined ancient words. I do not use the term, "racists", to describe those who appear biased against the Jews. For those folks, we use the term, "anti-Semites", even though that is not, technically, correct. It is also undeniably proper to include other tribal survivors from that area in the nation. I doubt that they (the Hashemites, the Bedoins, the Druze, etc) would wish to be Jews but, if they did, I would welcome them back into the family.
And it is a family, not better or worse than other families. If we are different than other tribes or nations or peoples, it is only that we have managed to survive, pretty much intact, for thousands of years and, until 1948, we did it as strangers in many strange lands.
I hold no grudge with Moslems in general or Palestinians in particular. I believe that the Palestinians should have a state of their own. My experience as a Jew has shown me the need for a people to have their own state. The Palestinians have been exploited for centuries because, without their own state, they were forced to work for others, often in other Arab countries. Like the Irish in England and the Chinese in America, the Palestinians provided cheap labor for wealthier Arab landowners. (Here's a little ammo for my adversaries. The Israelis have used them as underpaid labor, too. It is only the power of the Histadrut, the national labor union, that has required equal pay for Arabs and Jews. But Bosses are bosses the world around and I have no doubt that non resident Palestinian, Syrian and Lebonese
workers are often taken advantage of.)
I do have one hell of a bone to pick with people who want to kill me or my children. I am intolerant of terrorists. I dont care why they want to kill me or my children. Frankly, Our lives are not negotiable.
I will not lay down and die to satisfy someone else's political agenda. I dont hurt other people, I dont exploit other people, I dont
kill other people who have things I want. I dont deserve to be killed.
Neither do you, Carol. Your politics and your motives may be an affront to me, but I dont think, for one minute, that you should be killed for them. Sincere people can disagree. They can even be pejudiced in their beliefs. But Israel, and now the USA, are dealing with an enemy who kill without concience or apparent motive, and an enemy who kill non combatents in random lands. That you cannot see the unique danger posed by these groups suggests, to me, either blinders or an anti_jewish predisposition.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 03:43 PM

McGrath is right. In the United States, it is expected that if you criticize the Israeli government you will be accused of anti-Semitism.

Except if you're Jewish. In the US if you're Jewish and you criticize the Israeli government, you can anticipate being called a "traitor" and/or a "self-hating Jew".

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 03:35 PM

McGrath is right. In the United States, it is expected that if you criticize the Israeli government you will be accused of anti-Semitism.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 03:30 PM

Maybe it's different in Gernmany, Wolfgang, but in the letter columns and the papers here it is very common indeed for people to be accused of being anti-semitic because they are critical of Israel.

True enough, there are anti-semites who anti-Zionism as a camouflage, just as there are supporters of Israel who use the label of "anti-semite" as a way of defusing and deflecting criticism.

In a way there is an analogy between what happens in this context and what happens in the Intifada. Terrorist attacks cause horrible damage to innocent people - but the effect is to make it easier for the extremist givernment in Israel to maintain its position. If there was an end to terrorism, their hold on power would be in danger.

And much the same is true about anti-semitism. And by branding people who are not anti-semitic in this way, it becomes easier for the real anti-semites to operate and to spread their poison.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 02:45 PM

Well, Wolfgang, you have admitted to me that you have biases of your own in this regard. Maybe those biases are clouding your vision a bit.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 02:30 PM

Yes, Carol, I have read your assertion before your repetition here, I just fail to see any basis for it.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 02:23 PM

musicmic has declared everyone in this forum an anti-semite, Wolfgang. And he justifies it by making a lot of assumptions about the people here, most particularly about the ones who are not Jewish. If someone does that sort of thing to Jews, they are called "anti-Semites". If one does that sort of thing to Blacks, they are called racists. Making assumptions about people based on your stereotypes of the group to which they belong is racist and/or bigoted. Same set of rules for everyone.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 02:03 PM

We had a politician (from my home town) during the last elections (Wilfried may mean that incident; however, I recollect it completely different) who used this tactic ad nauseam:
He singled out a prominent German Jew, made a nasty antisemitic remark about him and also criticised Sharon's politics. His antisemitic remark was called 'antisemitic' by the prominent Jew (but not only by him). Then the politician in all his know public speeches never forgot to include this line of 'reasoning': I am a man who stands here and dares to criticise Sharon's politics and I shall never refrain from doing so even if I am called antisemitic.

He had been called antisemitic and he had criticised Sharon's politics but the two had nothing in common (except that they had happened the same week). Nobody had ever called him antisemitic for criticising Sharon's politics but he made the connection over and over as if this was something of validity. His endless repetition of the sentence 'If it is antisemitic to criticise Sharon then I may be called an antisemite' came over as fishing for sympathies from outspoken antisemites.

Here in this thread, I've counted more than two dozen repetitions of the 'it isn't antisemtic to criticise the Israeli government' argument. It is a correct argument as has been pointed out, among others, by musicmic. I have failed to find any post in support of such a position and I have even failed to find any link or any citation in any post pointing out that a sizeable part of the population believes in such an argument. So why is it repeated over and over without any opposition?

I cannot help but being reminded of the tactics of the German politician.

"It is not racist to point out that some African governments are very lousy". No, it isn't but if this argument would be repeated over and over without any opposition to it I would start slowly asking myself about the motives of those using it.

Musicmic a racist and bigot? I have read his posts over and over and still fail to see even the slightest reason for such a condemnation.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 01:37 PM

For crying out loud DG, when anti-semites are around being Jewish isn't a matter of "voluntary beliefs". Someone from a Jewish family could be an atheist, a Catholic, or a Buddhist, they'd still be liable to get the same treatment. Hitler didn't worry about things like that, and nor do his fans.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 01:29 PM

I just don't want ANY religious group denying freedom of speech in America, Ebbie, and lawmakers seem quick to grant concessions when it comes to race. And the Jews aren't a race anymore than the Methodists are. THAT'S why I'm splitting hairs over inherited traits vs voluntary beliefs.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 01:16 PM

One in five Israelis are not in any sense Jewish, they are the remnant of the Arab population who did not go into exile.

If the people who went into exile, and their children, were allowed to return home the figure would be round one in two. Insofar as the reason they can't return home is because that would mean it wasn't a Jewish homeland any more, I can't see how that can escape being open to the charge of racism.

Israel has a "right of return" that only applies to people from the Jewish Disapora, and not from the Palestinian Diaspora. Perhaps there may be arguments which can be raised in defence of that - but they would have to be arguments that accepted that it is a racist policy, and found some way of seeking to justify it, even so.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 01:02 PM

From CarolC I learned that musicmic is a racist and a bigot becuase he believes in Israel as a Jewish homeland.

No. You learned that he is a racist and a bigot because he assumed that I don't believe in Israel as a Jewish homeland based on nothing other than the stereotypes he holds of people who are not Jewish.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 12:57 PM

With appologies to Tom Paxton, "what did you learn at Mudcat today, dear little boy of mine?"

From Dreaded Guest I learned that antisemites who do not consider Jews to be a race cannot be considered to be racist.

From CarolC I learned that musicmic is a racist and a bigot becuase he believes in Israel as a Jewish homeland.

And that's what I learned at Mudcat today. Oy vey, oy vey, oy vey.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 12:14 PM

Talk about making a mountain out of a molehill. Dreaded Guest, so that's all you're concerned about- whether Jews should or should not consider themselves a race that they believe were/are God's Chosen People and entitled to their ancestral homeland, and that in doing so they may be racist themselves? Lighten up. Christianity itself is predicated on the same belief. Arabs, for all I know, may also consider themselves to be among those God chose- I understand the difference consists of different brothers.

Even if you don't believe in the concept of a Jewish 'race', keep in mind that a bigot on any subject can be as deluded and harmful as the classic racist. The harm is in what acts they pursue. What a person believes in his heart of hearts and in the privacy of his own home cannot be regulated- what he does and espouses in the outside world can.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 12:05 PM

musicmic - You are quite correct that the Muslim religious fundamentalists question the legitimacy of the Israeli state and wish to destroy it. You are also right that the Muslim "religious right" is dangerous. I have focused on the danger they pose in a number of posts I have done about the Wahabbis in Saudi Arabia. It is my opinion that those people planned and carried out the WTC and Pentagon attacks, and have been behind other acts of terrorism...and that they pose a danger not only to Jews and Americans, but also to moderate Muslims everywhere.

I am just as critical of Muslim-inspired terror as I am of Israeli-inspired terror. And I am also critical of American-inspired terror. You could say that I'm anti-terrorist, and that would be accurate...but you might better just say that I'm pro-human.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 11:38 AM

Art...I HAD no opinion on anti-semitism before I started this thread. I live near the Mexican border. Most of the people around me are Latino, and THAT is the racial/cultural thing I'm forced by politicians and religious leaders and the news media to focus on. The people around me are just people, until they're reminded their folks were from Mexico or Texas, etc. I just get tired of the Al Sharpton vs David Duke mentality everyone buys into, then I see an article where Jews get kid glove treatment and recall how that religion has tried to present itself as a 'race' in the past, so I have to ask what it's all about. And in the process I'm reminded of the Jews' obsession with genetics, which smacks of Aryan-supremacy. What a wacky world. And I had NOTHING to do with making that part of the world...I'm just trying to figure out why I should lose my freedom of speech because a group of people want to follow a particular belief system.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Pied Piper
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 11:38 AM

Hi musicmic.
   You seen consider yourself one of Gods Chosen people, and that you have a right to steel land and water from the Palestinians on the basis that God gave it to you 4000 years ago.
Tell me; how does anyone negotiate a peace with this attitude prevailing.
The Nazis did it to us is not an acceptable excuse for cultural genocide.

Salam
Shalom

PP

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 11:04 AM

I was right, musicmic. You are a racist and a bigot. You don't get to define my motives by virtue of what you think they should be, based on your own biases and agendas.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Sam L
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 09:38 AM

Gee whiz, y'all. I think it's an error to focus a question of free speech on Jewish identity--it makes it look like like that's the point, which makes it look like an anti-semitic agenda.

Musicmic, so... I take it Hitler understood anti-semitism? I'll try to remember that.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: artbrooks
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 08:56 AM

Musicmic: DG is a familiar irrational, and there are a couple of other people here who are known for having one-sided opinions on some issues. Keep cool, chaver.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 06:33 AM

From one point of view the definition of "who is a Jew" doesn't rest with Jews. It rests with the anti-semites, and on who they choose to persecute or discriminate against as Jews. And they are typically more concerned about "bloodlines" than religion or even culture. Though I imagine that they'd be quite willing to extend the definition to include converts to Judaism and so forth, or people who exhibited cultural affinities, such as liking Klezmer music.

However the same kind of attitudes that show up as anti-semitism show up in regard to other minorities. Whether bigotry against Arabs qualifies as anti-semitism is a matter of semantics, but it's cut from the same cloth, and it appeals to the same shadowy place in the mind. I get the impression that for some people in parts of the right which have historically been anti-semitic, it has provided a convenient displacement mechanism, satisfying the same felt need - and it can be combined with expressions of support for Israel. A guilt-free alternative. Except it's not.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 02:59 AM

Well, I certainly am not trying to act biased. I don't think I've displayed bias here. But I've seen some displayed.

What I find most odd in pondering this thread is how Hitler can be so reviled as a 'racist' because of his Aryan beliefs...reviled by folks who attach such importance to genetic lineage themselves. Do any of the rest of you think that is odd? To advance in the Jewish religion, apparently, you have to have certain genetic credentials, just like you had to have certain Aryan credentials to advance in Hitler's world. If I am wrong in making this observation, I apologize to any who might be offended, but if I'm right, has this point ever been addressed?

Pride of heritage is great, but when you condemn others because they don't bow down to your belief system, then your group has some problems. I've never discussed anti-semitism before, but this experience with it is fairly distressing. Sounds like very little deviation is accepted among Jews, but that doesn't give them the right to extend their rigid code to others. Not in America, at least.

I have no idea what anti-semitism is, Ebbie. That's why I asked.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: musicmick
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 02:08 AM

The question in the Middle East is and has always been the legitimacy of the Jewish state. The war which began in 1948 was fought over this issue and this issue, only. If those erudites whose opinions have been fouling up this thread with misinformation, had bothered to check the history of this war, they would have uncovered that little tidbit on their own. The Moslem religious right understands this and has steadfastly refused to accept the state of Israel under any circumstances. They are no more interested in Palestinian rights than George Bush is about health care. There was no talk about Palestinian rights or a Palestinian state when that region was controled by Turkey, or by absentee Egyptian and Syrian landlords. I am bringing these points up to suggest that the corespondants to this thread are either uninformed or biased. If I have assumed the latter, I assure you that I would prefer to be mistaken. It is just that the history of this conflict is so recent that I thought everyone knew about it.
I might have a more tolerant view of the motives of these corespondants if I found an equal number of threads condemning terrorist attacks directed specificly at civilians, bombs at bus terminals, skyjackings, school bombings. I am not blind to the anti-Israeli bias in this thread. If there are Jews among the corespondants, they should recognize their vulnerability. We are a funny race. Sometimes we become assimilated enough to think that our ethnic identity is no more cogent than the color of our hair. We maintain just enough tradition to please our parents or the memory of our parents. Yet, within those traditions, is a seed of unity, a sense of family, as it were. Last week, I attended a Passover seder at the home of a very modern and very American and very anti-war friend. There was lots of responsive reading from the hagadah, most of which was as passed over as the Malech Hamovis (Angel of Death) avoiding the bloodstained doors of the Jews in bondage. The irony of this seder was when the story of the four sons is told, the "wicked" son is so called because he detaches himself from his ancestors in bondage. He thinks of himself as being above the tribulations and dangers that befall his family. For, as the story suggests, all of us are who we are and who we were and where we come from.
I am a Jew by birth. I am an American by birth and by choice. I am an Israeli by liniage and history. I am old enough to remember WW2 and the concentration camps. I have lived in a world that ignored the plight of the Jews until their oppressors became a threat to the Christian world. I understand, all too well, why there is a need for a Jewish state.
I also understand the history and psychology of anti-semitism. It is as rooted in western culture as White supremecy. (No white, including me, is immune to anti-Black racism. It is a cultural legacy. It can only be combatted by awareness. Similarly, no Christian can escape the reality of the anti-Jewish bias. It is rooted in deicide and reinforced by centuries of segregation and distrust.)
Well, I'm done. I leave you with a sincere wish for shalom.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 12:22 AM

You have just discovered how being accused of antisemitism works, DG. You are now guilty merely by accusation, and must struggle to prove yourself innocent. No amount of struggling will suffice, in all probability, to mollify those who have accused you. In fact, the more you struggle to explain yourself, the guiltier you will look.

If you were a politician, you would be in very deep trouble.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 12:18 AM

Dreaded Guest, you say you wanted to clarify what anti-Semitism was- I think you only said what you think is not anti-Semitism. What do you think is anti-Semitism?

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 11:43 PM

The DNA argument...I recall reading how we could all be traced back to a common female in Africa. Eve. Millions of years ago. Remember that? So that makes me, a white guy in Texas, in reality a black woman from Africa. Yeah...DNA is a GREAT argument for settling theological discussions.

Musicmic is a good case in point of what I'm talking about. And I don't know, but Jews should be worried about passing protectionary laws, even if they benefit Jews for the moment. There are a lot more non-Jews in America, and we are going a bit fascist in our governmental ways, it seems. It's open season on Arabs right now, but who's next? Arabs are semites too, according to Merriam-Webster, and are Jews filing lawsuits to stop Arab children from being beaten to death at Camp X-Ray in Guantanamo? If not, then THAT is anti-semitism.

And it WAS Schweiker I was thinking of. Of course the fundamentalist site I saw that article on made a lot bigger deal out of it than is described by Sinsull, but damn, people SHOULD make a big deal out of the restriction of freedom of speech. The preacher I heard talking about Schweiker signing the legislation said it DID extend to speech and a church could be closed because of preaching against homosexuals. I'd have to go back and look at the wording of the bill, but I think the preacher was right. And that's just plain un-American. The preacher should be allowed to talk however he wants, and then pay the PERSONAL consequences. Have his business or church boycotted, lose his radio show because of a drop in advertising revenue, etc. But he shouldn't be fined by the govt. The govt cannot restrict freedom of speech in the US.

I just wanted to clarify what anti-semitism was, and suddenly I'm a Jew basher. Lots of touchy people in the world.

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 10:45 PM

Well, musicmic, with the genome project well under way, perhaps you can point out for us where the "Jewishness gene" hangs out in the DNA molecule.

Golly! Perhaps sometime in the near future, religious belief can be controlled through gene splicing. I can think of a couple of religious groups that would really like that.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 10:09 PM

You know, musicmic, one of the things that people use as a benchmark of racism and bigotry is the practice of generalizing behaviors of some members of a group to the group as a whole. You seem to be saying that everyone in this forum is an antisemite based on the behavior of a small number of people here in this thread. Maybe you're the racist/bigot.