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BS: Vegetarianism the truth
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Subject: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: Sooz Date: 27 Apr 03 - 07:40 AM Ok Rick, you asked twice! I'm a vegetarian because I don't need meat. Nor does anyone else, but it might not be a good enough reason for you. Thats OK by me. We can store carbohydrates and fats in our bodies from one day (or year) to the next. Protein is different. It cannot be stored, so any we eat over and above our daily requirement is actually a problem for our body. The liver converts the excess amino acids to urea which is excreted by the kidneys. To put it briefly, most of the steak goes down the toilet! Finally the field that feeds one cow could feed ten people with a crop of beans or cereals. In a world where many people simply don't have enough to eat, that must also be a consideration. Sorry to sound pompous but its how I fee! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: Bobert Date: 27 Apr 03 - 08:06 AM Ahhhh, not to sound too pompous my own self, but it takes 16 pounds of grain to produce one pound of meat. In a world of increasing populations meat is not only a lxary but wastefull. This is the onlt business in the world that I know of where the midddle man ends up in the slaughter house... But, hey, I don't particularily care what other folks eat just so long as they don't ask me to eat it, thank you... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: Rapparee Date: 27 Apr 03 - 10:06 AM Don't forget the old saying that "you are what you eat." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: Rick Fielding Date: 27 Apr 03 - 10:46 AM Thank you Sooz, I simply couldn't believe how many people were treating my thread seriously. My thoughts in THAT one were all a kind of running gag......my REAL feelings are quite different. I have great respect for folks who make a decision to NOT follow the mainstream. Sometimes it's very hard to stick this out with all the peer pressure to conform......but it's kinda fun when you reach the half century mark and can say..."I may not have changed the world but Walmart didn't change me." Wish I could have been more "veggie-positive", but I've stuck to my guns in a couple of other areas. Cheers Rick |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: Peg Date: 27 Apr 03 - 12:07 PM Well, actually humans are omnivores. We have not been eating grains for very long given our gastronomic history. Early men and women ate meat (raw usually) and green plants, fruits and nuts. This model is now being touted as the "caveman diet" for maintaining good health. It differs from the high-protein Atkins model because it allows fruit (a natural and most nutritious food for humans!) Our teeth are made for tearing flesh, and also for grinding plants. Quite a machine is the human body. Our intestines are made such that they require a large amount of fibrous material to move waste matter efficiently. In primitive cultures a bowel movement after every meal in the norm. In the USA and other industrialized nations, one is the norm (and for some not even that). Little wonder we are addicted to drugs that do this work for us, and that the types of cancers and disorders prevalent in our society are almost entirely due to poor digestion and elimination. These diseases were unknown in early mankind. Also there was far less FAT on the animals our ancestors ate, as compared to the ones we eat now that are raised for slaughter (don't get me started on the hormones and antibiotics pumped into our chickens cows and others--DO try to eat naturally-raised animals, it's better for us and more human for them). AND last but not least, umans were far more ACTIVE back then; and we did not eat three squares a day. The rituals and ceremonies surroudning the hunt were significant: a successful hunt meant food for a short period of time. It took days and sometimes weeks of tracking and hunting to get that caribu that would feed the family for a few weeks...so humans' bodies learned to store fat effectively. Now, since we eat way more and exercise a lot less, we store it TOO efficiently... As for grains, they combine protein and carbohydrate in one food. Some nutritionists say this is not good because the human body cannot digest both at the same time efficiently because of the digestive acids required for both. This is one of the principles behind food combining diets and Atkins to some extent. Some people do fine with grains; some do not. I know if I eat a sandwich on whole-grain bread every day for a week I get kinda bloated, and eating too much pasta is bad for anyone unless it's the whole grain variety. Balance in all things... Eat more fruits and veggies, organic if possible. Go easy on the fatty meats, and eat more lean protein, and less of it that you think you want. Drink more water, and get more exercise. Live longer if you're happy and lucky! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: Little Hawk Date: 27 Apr 03 - 12:30 PM Sounds good to me. Look at newsreels of America in the 40's, 50's, and 60's...and note how much slimmer the general public was at that time! People in this society are killing themselves through their junk food diet and their sedentary lifestyle. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: Forum Lurker Date: 27 Apr 03 - 01:53 PM Just one note. While grain-fed cattle do consume resources at the aforementioned 16-to-1 ratio, grazed cattle can make use of land which simply cannot support cereal grains. It is a waste of resources to grow grains in order to feed sedentary cattle, but free-range animals are using land that we cannot, without extraordinary amounts of fertilization and irrigation. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: Neighmond Date: 27 Apr 03 - 02:54 PM I am omnivorous, myself, but were any vegetarians to land on my step they would be fed with an array of goodies from my garden and grove. Carnivores and Omnivores like garden fare, too. Chaz |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: catspaw49 Date: 27 Apr 03 - 03:00 PM Not to mention, and since no one has, I will, the 55 million metric tons, give or take a few million, of methane emitted by cattle every year. Please be sure your cow's catalytic converter is working properly. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: Ed. Date: 27 Apr 03 - 03:16 PM Spaw, Could you please stop infecting every thread with an 'hilarious' fart joke. Please. It's getting very old, and somewhat tiresome. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: Clinton Hammond Date: 27 Apr 03 - 03:23 PM "folks who make a decision to NOT follow the mainstream" Ya... that way they can be an individual... just like all thier friends... Mmmm... "Caveman Diet" Now THAT I want on a T-shirt! LOL |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: Rapparee Date: 27 Apr 03 - 03:38 PM Even though I do like to tease my vegetarian friends with my statement above, my own diet has changed dramatically over the years. It now is far, far heavier in grains, vegetables, and non-red meats than it was, and those meats I do eat are eaten in much smaller quantities. And I prefer game to farm-raised meats, not because I want to kill things but because mankind has so screwed up the natural predator/prey relationship that to my mind it would be unethical NOT to hunt. Actually, I'd like it to be that you weren't allowed to eat any meat you didn't kill yourself, but that's not going to happen. Consider, though, that what this society calls "vegetarianism" can actually be effective only in a culture with an efficient food distribution system. In the past, Springtime meant fresh green plants to eat and an end to Winter's scurvy-causing lack of vitamins (Arctic peoples dealt with it differently). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 27 Apr 03 - 04:07 PM "Our teeth are made for tearing flesh" - not very efficient with raw flash actually. Raw fish maybe. I've always like the idea we're descended from sea-apes, living in and out of the sea on the beach, sort of cross between mermaids and beachbums. Animal protein such as worms and insects would be fine too - but raw meat from big animals isn't too easy at all. Chimps have much better sets of teeth than we have, and they can only manage little monkeys. I always assumed we are designed to eat anything we can get hold of, and most of the things we could get hold of would have been vegetation of one sort or another, because they can't run away. And anytime there's a forest fire, there'd be cooked meat for a treat, because you could get your teeth round it. So they learned about how to start forest fires. And then some bright spark thought, "Why not do it the other way round - kill the food first and then make make a small fire to make it edible..." And we never looked back. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: Thomas the Rhymer Date: 27 Apr 03 - 04:12 PM Experiment with your diet, and see what works best for you. Listen to your body, and let it tell you what it "needs". Don't fall for it's squirming and complaining addictions... and be aware of the effects that your lifestyle has on your nutritional needs. Sedintary people need far less protien that do athletes... ...also, curtail the preservatives, and the sugars... They are more dangerous than we know, I fear... ttr |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: Rapparee Date: 27 Apr 03 - 07:42 PM I'm trying to give up on fake butters, the ones with hydrogenated fats and loaded with trans-fatty acids, and go back to using butter (judiciously), olive oil, and so on. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: JedMarum Date: 27 Apr 03 - 08:27 PM I eat Vegetarians. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: Forum Lurker Date: 27 Apr 03 - 08:38 PM It's interesting to note that, as soon as a society transitions from a foraging lifestyle, eating fruits, easily preparable vegetables, and game, to a sedentary agricultural society, their lifespan and health both plummet precipitously. Archaelogical evidence indicates that it hasn't been until the last fifty years or so that average health in First World countries reached their pre-agricultural levels. This is due both to the consumption of grains, poor in protein and other nutrients for their caloric content, and the domestication of animals, from whom we get our epidemic diseases. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: Jeri Date: 27 Apr 03 - 08:41 PM I could say something in reply to Jed, but I'm much too polite to do so. Plus, I'm not a vegetarian. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: JedMarum Date: 27 Apr 03 - 08:44 PM Look like a lotta bad science being passed for gospel here ... I eat meat. I love it. I eat lotsa veggies, grains and fish too ... pretty low on the fat (I just don;t like it) ... stay away from the fast food ... use real butter (in small quantities) and olive oil. I'm 50 years old and maintain a 152 cholesterol level - 'course I'll probably drop dead next week from an anurism! Hasn't helped my spelling or my typing, though! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: GUEST Date: 27 Apr 03 - 09:06 PM Well, the way I look at it is that I'm being efficient. Instead of wasting my time eating 16 pounds of hay (which I don't like) I eat one pound of cow (which I do like). Or maybe a Bambie or two - little butter, little garlic, yum! And I try to get some of them endangered species once in a while before they disappear completely. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: Mark Clark Date: 28 Apr 03 - 01:44 AM Great subject for a BS (blue smoke) thread. I get the impression that diet is one of the major categories of misinformation, on the Net and elsewhere. Every “authorative” source seems to contradict every other “authorative” source. Some theories are based on a clinical estimate of human nutritional needs, some on assumptions about early humans in an idealized “natural” state and many are based on what some particular industry has to sell. I did some searching on the Net to see what might pass for actual independent information and haven't yet found much. I did run across a guy in California named Mark Blackburn—with an MBA! How's that for credentials in nutrition?—who looks as though he's at least tried to get some independent information together. Here's a link to his site where he also has references and links. He makes the case that homo sapiens are neither carnivores nor omnivores but are actually frugivores and cites studies documenting the health benefits of a diet of fruits and vegetables. He also piloted his boat from Toronto to Miami, Florida. His site is an interesting one to browse. I also came across a page calling itself The Encyclopedia of Fruitarianism and Rational Living at the Fruitarian Universal Network site. I haven't spent much time there but they may have links to other information as well. I still have my copy of John Robins' book and while I skipped over the first half of his book, dealing with the poor treatment of animals by agra-business, the chapters on the health damage caused by eating animal products were well researched and compelling. I haven't radically changed my diet as a result but it made me think I probably should have. Maybe I'll have to look into this frugivore thing. - Mark |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: Peg Date: 28 Apr 03 - 02:11 AM The frugivore thing does make sense. Consider what primates eat: fruit, mainly. Oh, and bugs. As for "bad science" well, it is annoying that so-called scientists and experts cannot even agree on what is a healthy diet...but some things we know. We know preservatives and processed sources of saturated fats are bad for humans. We know processed sugars are VERY bad for humans, exacerbating some of our worst health problems including tooth decay, alcoholism and diabetes. We know the body DOES digest food more efficiently when fewer foods ar eaten at once, particularly if one avoids combining proteina nd starch together at one meal, and the best aporoach to this is the "mono-diet" or one food at a time...The typical "English" Sunday dinner or Thanksgiving spread wreaks havoc because of the bad combining... We know that most people are far less active today than they were in the first half of the last century. We know we die in greater numbers from diseases directly related to diet than at any other time in our history. We know that eating too much of anything is not a good thing. We know that eating a food as close as possible to its "live" or natural state is far more healthy than eating food which has been freeze-dried, frozen, canned, smoked, pickled, dried or otherwise preserved. I highly recommend a book called "Native Nutrition." It details the history of the diets of a number of indigenous populations throughout the world. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: Sooz Date: 28 Apr 03 - 04:23 AM Jed - are you sure you eat vegetarians? Ideally that should be true, but most of our farm animals don't get a choice what they eat and the cheaper commercial animal feeds are most definitely not exclusively plant based. Enforced cannibalism is often nearer the truth. This has lead to the proliferation of diseases such as CJD in recent years. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: Pied Piper Date: 28 Apr 03 - 05:26 AM This thread seems a lot more balanced and informative than the one that spawned it. I eat a lot of vegetables and fruit along with small amounts of meat particularly oily fish (smoked Mackerel aaaaaaagh). I to avoid the trans fatty acids found in Hydrogenated vegetable oils. Here's a few diet health tips I've come across over the years. Oily Fish- Essential Fatty acids (good for lowering cholesterol). Tined fish such as pilchards, rich in calcium. Tomatoes- Cooked with oil, the richest source of Lycopene (helps protect against arteriosclerosis) Avoiding osteoporosis- This is particularly important for women. Some foods Cheese and meat being the worst create acidic digestion products, as these enter the blood system for transport they cause the body to compensate to avoid the bloods pH dropping. If the amount is small the citrate buffer system in the blood sufficient to cope, but with large amounts the body responds by making Amines from protein in the Liver and mobilising Phosphate from the bones(this also mobilises Calcium from the bones). Fortunately green vegetables and fruit have the opposite effect, so eat Cheese and meat with plenty of veg(Spring Cabbage aaaaaagh). Garlic- I think every one knows about this, and the other members of the Onion family Cinnamon- This is reputed to help prevent late onset diabetes, the health effect coming from 1/4 teaspoon a day. All the best PP |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 28 Apr 03 - 05:27 AM Consider what primates eat: fruit, mainly. Oh, and bugs. But chimpanzees like to hunt down Red Colubus monkey to eat - in fact it appears about one in five of these is killed each year by chimps. (See here) Mind, I don't think the other Great Apes go in for this, so maybe our people didn't either, to start with. Made up for it later though. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: Rapparee Date: 28 Apr 03 - 06:29 AM Mmmmmmmmm...bugs with tomatoes, garlic, and cinnamon! 8-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: Pied Piper Date: 28 Apr 03 - 06:47 AM Every year I try and eat some Wild food. The Council kindly plants lots of edible Cherries around here and there delicious. Most years I manage to find some Field Mushrooms and there is always Shaggy Ink cap. Lime leaves are nice this time of year. I once had the idea of starting a Snail ranch, producing the molluscs for local Restaurants, you could feed them on waste veg and they don't take up much space. I decided in the end against it, the risk of stampede was just to great. All the best PP |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 28 Apr 03 - 07:34 AM "My snails have not yet arrived" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: Sooz Date: 28 Apr 03 - 07:38 AM Has Les Barker written one about us vegetarians? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: Grab Date: 28 Apr 03 - 08:36 AM Peg, that's not entirely correct. There are some grains that don't have the vitamins/minerals in a form that humans can digest. You need two different types of grain which react together - you then get more nutrients from the two together than you would get from either individually. Sooz, you *do* need meat, or rather you need the nutrients you get from it. If you want to do without meat, you need a very specialised diet to provide these nutrients (see paragraph above). Some countries have evolved these diets over centuries ("evolving" because people who ate other things tended not to live as long), so they can live without meat. But just removing meat from an existing diet is a guarantee of malnutrition-related problems - rickets was endemic during the Industrial Revolution, when poor people couldn't afford meat and didn't know what foods they needed to eat to stay healthy. Granted, we do now know how to do this though. As for efficiency of land use, sure, grain-fed cows are a very inefficient use of land. But cows browsing permanent pasture are doing so in areas where the land couldn't easily be used for grains/vegetables. And sheep farming in hilly areas, or cow/sheep farming in scrubland areas such as commonly found in the US and Australia, are using areas which would not otherwise provide any food for humans. Also consider fishing - it's obviously not possible to sow seeds in the sea! Graham. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: Forum Lurker Date: 28 Apr 03 - 08:49 AM Grab-Eggs and milk provide most of the nutrients you normally get from milk. A well-rounded vegetarian diet can be more healthy as a fully omnivorous diet, if only because the raw protein comes with less saturated fats. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: Jim Tailor Date: 28 Apr 03 - 09:23 AM risky bidniz for high output atheletes (like distance runners). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: fiddler Date: 28 Apr 03 - 09:36 AM Unfortuantely teh vegan message board has died - someone hacked in to it! The truth is we are built as omnivores - yes - proven form tooth structure Most eat too much meat for their own good - proven but research. Meat is costly to produce as stated above! (the theory that the worlds food problems could be soved if we all went veggie or vegan is open to much debate) It doen't hurt anyone to be veggie It does hurt animals to eb carni or omni We would not have some of the rare breeds whcih are nice to look at if we didn't eat meat in the past. Production of these rare breeds was primitive GM research. I don't like GM either. Live and let live - I don't eat meat - I can't eat nuts and many oils so I have to compromise in some areas. I cook meat for non veggies if I have to (in their houses when they don't know what to do with it). I let my kids make their own decision - they both eat meat I'd rather they didn't but Live and let live! Speaking of Athletes I ahve run 3 marathons and countless half marathons and on top of that I play the fiddle! GRIN Sorry couldn't resist my bigoted live and let live two penneth!!! Grinagain A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: Kim C Date: 28 Apr 03 - 09:52 AM All right then, go tell the Inuit they don't need meat. I dare ya. Kinda hard to grow many grains, fruits and vegetables on the tundra. Plus they need the fat because living in that cold of a climate requires extra calories to stay warm. Anyhow..... everyone is different. I think our eating habits have a lot to do with geography - what's available where we live, and what was available to our ancestors. I tried going veggie once. I was hungry all the time and I gained 20 pounds. I, personally, DO need meat, but I also recognize that others' mileage may vary. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: mooman Date: 28 Apr 03 - 10:04 AM I'm now reaching about 23 years as a vegetarian... It seems to at least suit my constitution anyway and several doctors advised me to go light on the meat (digestive problems in the past). In the end I gave it up completely. I'm almost teetotal too these days! (Small lapse onto the vile black stuff in Portaferry...just for medicinal reasons of course!) Egad! Am I a folkie at all?!!! mooman (rather big and muscular 'Catter!) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: Sooz Date: 28 Apr 03 - 12:26 PM Grad - I don't need meat! A varied balanced diet of everything but meat (and animal bi-products) has kept me very healthy for thirty years now. My immune system is very strong and its at least eight years since I needed to take any time off work due to illness. I'm getting a bit fed up of the references to teeth - human teeth aren't adapted to do anything in particular. In fact they are a bog standard set of unspecialised gnashers. Tiny canines of no use for tearing anything tougher than the wrapper off a Mars bar and miniscule molars useless for grinding grass. Fortunately most of the plant material we all eat raw does not have silica in its cell walls like grass does so we can cope with it perfectly well and do not need the huge continuously growing molars of grazing animals. Yes Mooman - you are a folkie and so am I.Unfortunately I'm also a Biology teacher who can't resist the odd lecture spasm! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: Peg Date: 28 Apr 03 - 01:28 PM "Peg, that's not entirely correct. There are some grains that don't have the vitamins/minerals in a form that humans can digest. You need two different types of grain which react together - you then get more nutrients from the two together than you would get from either individually." What are you talking about exactly? It sounds like what you are referring to is the fact that to make a "complete protein" one must combine grains with legumes (i.e. rice and beans, corn and beans etc.); this is something that is a cornerstone of vegetarian eating, the idea that to achieve high-quality levels of protein one must combine food carefully; but that is not what I was talking about. The "vitamins/minerals" in grains are not connected to their digestibility...nor do different types of grains "react together" (what does this mean exactly?) I was speaking of the enzymes produced in the stomach for the digestion of starch (grains) or protein (flesh); when they are eaten together these enzymes work at cross purposes and lead to poor absorption of nutrients and incomplete digestion (and putrefaction) of these foods, and THAT is the problem of digestibility I was referring to. When you are talking about vitamins and minerals the issue is absorption; not digestion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: GUEST,Forum Lurker Date: 28 Apr 03 - 02:00 PM Sooz-When you say "animal by-products" are you referring to dairy and eggs, i.e., are you a vegan? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: MMario Date: 28 Apr 03 - 02:01 PM I thought vegans eschewed all animal products? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: Sooz Date: 28 Apr 03 - 02:09 PM The enzymes produced in the stomach digest protein only in the very acid conditions of the stomach. Carbohydrate digesting enzymes are produced by the salivary glands and mix with food in the mouth and by the pancreas from where they mix with food in the duodenum. They work best in neutral conditions. There are also a couple of protein digesting enzymes made in the pancreas. Poor absorption of nutrients is usually due to food moving too quickly along the guts. This is easily controlled by a high fibre intake coming entirely from plant cell walls. No animal product has fibre and the high levels of fat associated with most meats simply grease the progress along the gut. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: Sooz Date: 28 Apr 03 - 02:13 PM It took me so long to type my last post that you guys got in while I was chewing the cud. I'm not a vegan. I use moderate amounts of hopefully humanely produced eggs and dairy products but I don't wear leather shoes. Those cows did not die of old age! By animal bi-products I mean the gelatine derived from bones, hooves etc that holds a lot of confectionary items together, cheese made from bovine rennet etc |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: GUEST,jennifer Date: 28 Apr 03 - 04:28 PM If there's one thing that adult humans really are NOT designed to consume, it's dairy products! I believe if one wishes to be vegetarian because you think modern farming is cruel you would have more effect by purposely buying high welfare local products and encouraging those who are making steps in the right direction. Also, permaculture school of thought says city dwellers should be meat eaters because it's cheaper to transport for the same nutritional effect. And surely it takes less fuel to grill a steak than to simmer a bean stew? And the methane produced by the human after eating the beans would be less than that after eating the steak? In the UK large tracts of the landscape we value have been produced by hundreds of years of stock rearing - to be strictly vegan you shouldn't look, or something. Jennifer And I have eaten meat I reared and killed, by the way, felt very good about that. Seemed right. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: Kim C Date: 28 Apr 03 - 04:45 PM I can't speak for anyone else, but I have never had a problem digesting dairy products, except in the odd case of over-consumption. I very rarely have digestive problems at all. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: Forum Lurker Date: 28 Apr 03 - 05:41 PM I find that dairy is much easier on my digestion than beans, in general. Lactose-tolerance is fairly prevalent in European populations, and I believe northern African populations, but most other ethnicities have trouble. I think it derives from rates of dairy consumption in ancestral populations. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: fiddler Date: 28 Apr 03 - 06:02 PM Milk I am told lines the gut with a mucus type coating and therefore reduces digestive capeability. Fits with the old trick of drinking a pint of milk to give staying power when you go out drinking non veggie beer!!! A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: GUEST,kimmers Date: 28 Apr 03 - 09:34 PM I don't there is any subject more rife with opinion and controversy than nutrition, and what is "right" may be different for different people. Whoever commented about the Inuit... well, yeah, how would they survive without meat? But we who have access to greater variety, and are used to it, would be well advised to seek it out. And we all need to eat less CRAP! Ban the Twinkies and the chips! I personally don't like meat very much. Once in a great while, I crave it... and when I do, it is invariably something very bad for me like bacon or a nice greasy pork chop. Yum. But most of the time, I'd rather have vegetables and whole grains. And yes, dairy products... while some people have trouble digesting them, many of us love the stuff and do well with it. I think it really depends on your ancestry. Mine were Irish, so I think I should live off a diet of potatoes, cabbage, bacon, cheese, and stout... just kidding! I have low cholesterol, and have mostly maintained an ideal weight; except for recently when I've had to take some meds for my asthma that have ramped up my appetite. That, and too much of the aforementioned stout. Beer has too many damned calories!!! I respect my vegetarian friends and I do not make fun of their eating choices; when with them, I just eat like they do. I find them far easier to cope with than my office staff, half of whom are on the Atkins diet and very cranky right now. The funny thing is, they were all on something like it 2-3 years ago as well, and were just as cranky, and they all gained all of their weight back. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: Forum Lurker Date: 28 Apr 03 - 10:23 PM fiddler-The gut is already lined with a mucus-like coating, and lactose is already broken down by the time it gets to the small intestine, which is where nutrient absorption begins. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: mg Date: 28 Apr 03 - 10:44 PM if you were on an Atkins-like diet 2 or 3 years ago, and did well on it, then your body is telling you you should stay on a version of it. You can't go on an off it..of course you will gain your weight back. I think everyone needs to read Body Typing..or some such name..I'll have to dig out the book. Basically, it says there are 3 (probably with endless permutations) types of metabolism...those who do well on vegetarian/grain based diets, those who have a mixed diet need, and those, and I am one, who have high needs for animal protein and FATS. DAIRY FATS. We do just very well thank you on them. He gives you a test you take and you can tell what you are. You are almost guaranteed to have health problems if you don't eat right for your type..this is not the blood type diet..a dentist came up with this originally, but it really makes sense. And of course it depends on your ethnic heritage..if you are of a single heritage and your ancestors were thriving, eat what they ate (and work like a horse)... Read Dr. Mary Enig..Nourishing traditions...she gets into saturated fats...essential for some people..generally of Northern ancestry...and fish oils are very essential for some people. In general, there is consensus that there is no need ..and great harm..in eating artifically produced fats..margarines etc...don't mix that up with untouched saturated fats, which some bodies do fine on. Also refined sugars, and flours..don't forget the flours. Read Dr. Schwarzbein on diabetes, prevention and reversal.... Dr. Mercola has a web site and he is really into this body typing...if you do well on a vegetarian diet, by all means eat it. Don't insist that others do. A good percentage of adults do just fine on dairy foods..and if they don't get enough fats and proteins will, mark my words, get diabetes. And really make sure you are making sense when you say how many cows can be supported by one acre of land. Where is the land? Arizona or my part of Washington, which could support all sorts of cows or goats or whatever. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: Beccy Date: 29 Apr 03 - 09:22 AM Okay, I've been flip, but I'll be serious for a bit. I was a vegetarian for 7 years (ending about 10 years ago.) I had some serious energy problems. I was lethargic and got every little virus that came around. I was seriously anemic. I was VERY careful about getting all the right nutrients and combinations of proteins, so I knew I was getting good nutrition. I never thought about meat, so it wasn't that I was craving it. One day I decided that a piece of fried chicken looked good, and I'm still not sure what possessed me to try it, but I did. I felt so good that day. A few weeks later, I was at a Polish Festival and saw some Kielbasa on a spit. I had already taken the great chicken leap, so I went ahead and tried a Kielbasa with onions and peppers. I felt great. I decided to reintroduce small amounts of meat. Two months later, my anemia was gone. I was no longer lethargic. I wasn't getting all the little bugs circulating. I'm not saying it's right for EVERYONE to eat meat. Some people feel much better without it. My point is that my body needs meat and I am aware of that. I feel better health-wise when I eat it. You may not- to each his own. I don't like it, though, when people moralize to each other over their dietary choices. Beccy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: Kim C Date: 29 Apr 03 - 09:34 AM The truth about vegetarianism is that it's great for some, and not so great for others. I love veggies and eat some every day. I don't always eat meat every day. My health is excellent and I'm in great shape. I found the thing that works for ME, which is what you all have to do. I do not believe that there is One Absolute Way of Eating that is Right For All People. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: Mark Clark Date: 29 Apr 03 - 11:19 AM The latest pseudo (bogus?) scientific theory on diet is that people with different blood types should eat different foods. The idea goes that around half the population has blood type O because it's the earliest type to emerge in human evolution and has been inherited by more people. The theory also supposes that early humans' primary diet was meat; ergo, people with type O blood should have diets that rely heavily on meat. Other blood types evolved at later stages in human development and people with those blood types should have a diet consistent with the common diet at the time their blood type first appeared. The theory sounds good except that prehistoric man was evidently a frugivore, not a carnivore. Still, I know people who plan their diets based on this theory and report good results. - Mark |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: Mark Clark Date: 29 Apr 03 - 11:42 AM Proponents of the blood type theory, Peter D'Adamo and Steve Shapiro have published a book and have created websites. - Mark |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: Peg Date: 29 Apr 03 - 11:50 AM These "body type" diets have a long history. There's the ectomorph, endomorph, mesomorph diet (remember wen it was all the rage in the late 1970s?) which roughly corresponds to the Ayurvedic system... which is based on not just body type but emotion and temperament... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: Kim C Date: 29 Apr 03 - 12:22 PM The Ayurvedic system says I shouldn't eat spicy foods because I'm already spicy enough. I reckon there is probably some truth to that - but I love spicy foods, and am not willing to give them up altogether. Anyhow, hot peppers are sposta be good for you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: GUEST,Sooz(at work) Date: 30 Apr 03 - 07:16 AM Spicy food interests me. When Mike eats a spicy meal it brings him out in a sweat and he goes bright red. When I eat the same food I am unaffected. Why is this? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: Peg Date: 30 Apr 03 - 09:37 AM Sooz; well, in the Ayurvedic system ths might mean you have the Vata or Kapha doshas dominant, while Mike has Pitta dominant. Kapha needs more spicy foods; Vata can tolerate them all right. Pitta is supposed to avoid them entirely. Tell me, does he have fair or reddish hair? Does he have a hard time in hot or humid weather? Does he get irritable easily (especially when skipping meals?) Does he generally have a healthy appetite and abundant energy and good muscle tone? these (among others) are common to Pitta types. Pittas have to avoid heat and humidity, spicy, rich or fermented foods, and anything that will cause tension (including violent TV at night, etc.). They do well to get out in nature frequently. I have a great book on all this by Deepak Chopra called Perfect Health. It's an interesting system. Even if one does not completely buy into the types etc. most of the advice is very pragmatic and is primarily based on a "listen to your body" sort of approach which makes more sense than trying to follow a diet or regime that isn't right for you even if it worked wonders for a friend... Of course some people just can't tolerate spicy food. I can eat some spicy Indian food but I ALWAYS get some raita for its "cooling" effect--Indian cuisine has Ayurvedic balancing principles built right in, and special blends of spices can be added to foods to bring the doshas back into balance. Some ethnic groups do very well with the "indigenous" foods of their culture and little else; others can and do eat everything. I come from Italian-Sicilian and Irish-Scottish stock--I cook almost everything in olive oil or butter,and thank goodness for my mediterranean heritage or my cholesterol might be through the roof! But I also exercise which is supposed to help too. According to Ayurveda I am a Pitta-Vata dosha type; and I do find I feel better when I avoid the foods indicated in the dietary guidelines. I can't handle spicy or red-hot food though I do like a bit of it. No wasabi on my sushi, no extra hot chicken wings for me! I am also supposed to avoid sour cream and other fermented things (this is diffcult as I love sour cream and yogurt). I do well eating lots of fresh fruits and veggies, salads, and fish, although some of my favorite sour fruits are supposed to be consumed in moderation (like strawberries and grapefruit). I can eat meat, chicken and eggs relatively frequently (although Ayurveda recommends no red meat and small amounts of chicken or shrimp); but too much grain or doughy food (bread, pasta, etc.) makes me feel kind of ill. I agree with whoever said there is no one right way to do any of this. I do enjoy reading about all of these systems though and seeing what logic they all have in common (if any). Another absolutely great book by two German naturopaths is Moon Time which details traditional ways of maintaining health according to moon phases. Sounds whacky perhaps but think about how everyone is affected by the full moon. If we do indeed absorb chemicals more intensely at that time as this book says, that would go a long way to explaining why people get weird, and the emergency rooms are fuller than usual on these nights. The new moon on the other hand is a good time for detoxification. The book deals with far more than nutrition; there is even a fascinating section on sound construction practices (felling wood, digging foundations etc.) following moon phases. These rules were followed for many years but fell out of fashion in the last century. Think of the houses most people live in and which sorts have the fewest problems: either they have swell old places built before or into the Victorian era; or post-war places that often have problems with termites, leaks, drafts etc. Or they chuck it all and get something brand new because they can't be bothered with fixing up something old. No one follows the traditional building methods anymore because it is faster and cheaper not to. God forbid a contractor wanted to wait until the new moon to dig a foundation, but that's exactly what they did in the old days). Apparently these old methods are catching on again in Europe...including dowsing building sites for zones of disturbance or potential dampness problems. peg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: GUEST,Forum Lurker Date: 30 Apr 03 - 03:44 PM Peg-I'm afraid that the system doesn't work for everyone. I match the Pitta type quite well (except for the hair), and I love spicy foods. I also do poorly when out in nature, as sunlight afflicts me similarly to hay fever. I suppose my mongrel ancestry might have something to do with it; my ancestors range from Slavic to Semitic to Saxon. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: Sooz Date: 30 Apr 03 - 04:35 PM Wow Peg, what a lot of information. Mike has fair to red hair (had I should say, its more grey now!) but he likes hot weather and spicy food. I'm not keen on most spicy foods although I love pickles and I'm not comfortable with hot weather. We're both irritable but don't have a tendancy to skip meals so I don't know if that has an effect. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: TIA Date: 30 Apr 03 - 04:44 PM ...dowsing building sites for zones of disturbance or potential dampness problems... Aaaaarrrggghhhh! must...go....to...rant..thread....NOW |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: Roughyed Date: 30 Apr 03 - 05:26 PM What humans who eat meat usually are is carrion eaters. Very few humans eat meat while it is still kicking like true predator carnivores. No they wait until it has been dead for a long while, then cover up it's taste by spicing, cooking, salting - anything to make it taste different to freshly killed raw flesh. Some of the people on this site must have very strange bodies if they think they are naturally omnivorous. We resemble our nearest cousins the gorilla and orang utan (both frugivores) in dentition, digestive enzymes and gut formation a damn site more than we resemble the average pig (although I have seen some people that I would say the jury is out on). I don't think that this invalidates anyone's diet. Eat what you like but don't misrepresent biology. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: Forum Lurker Date: 30 Apr 03 - 06:38 PM We resemble chimpanzees the most, and they are definitely omnivores. They consume insects and small birds on a regular basis, and occasionally young chimpanzees. Chimpanzees are our nearest relatives both genetically and behaviorally, in that they engage in intra-species warfare and domestic abuse, among other activities. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: mg Date: 30 Apr 03 - 09:58 PM the original humans in the African savanna or wherever might have been fructivores...but their descendants moved. How much fruit would there be in Norway in winter? In spring? Obviously they had to adapt to what was present for them. Those who could not adapt died. Simple. If you are a Norwegian, you probably won't make a great fructivore..but maybe so...one thing I have read repeatedly is that if you come from coastal stock, eat fish...lots of it..salmon especially if you are northern...they say that brains evolved based on a fish diet and we need those fish oils...think of how little fish we eat and how much depression, ADD etc. there is...also if your ancestors ate a lot of dairy, give it some good thought. If they didn't, then don't. Our ancestors co-evolved with certain food sources. You can bet the bank that we need what they needed. Of course, people are greatly ethnically and biologically mixed so it is more complicated. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: sledge Date: 01 May 03 - 03:58 AM Just a thought for those who like to supplement their diet with healthy fish as opposed to red meat and poultry, just look at the state of the worlds fisheries since we all started to consume more and more fish. The North Sea is now severely restricted because of over fishing and the Grand banks decimated. We are now seeing fish types appear for consumption that were not previously put up for sale because we were used to munching on the more traditional cod and flounder and sea bass. How many dolphins are massacred each year so we can enjoy our tuna sandwiches, dolphin friendly fishing is supposedly widely implemented, for real? Or is it just to salve our conscience. The Blue fin tuna is on the point of extiction, Tuna lines kill tousands of sea birds annually accidently. Just think what would happen if we all suddenly decided to give up steak and eat even more healthy fish. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: Beccy Date: 01 May 03 - 03:45 PM Okay... how 'bout we all just give up eating altogether and kill off the human race to make everyone else and all the animals happy???? No one seems to be willing to cut someone else slack and wants to prostelytize about how their diet is the only one for anyone and if you DON'T eat like them you're killing off this species or that species or you're malnourished or you're whatever... Come on- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: MMario Date: 01 May 03 - 03:47 PM I think you will find that the over-fishing extends back quite a bit before fish was being pushed as "heart-healthy" Essentially humans have been over-fishing as soon as they/we were capable of doing so. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: sledge Date: 01 May 03 - 04:49 PM Over fishing may not be a new thing but the industrial scale on which we do it certainly is, and still we are told that we should include more fish in our diet, so where is it going to come from? the UN food council currently estimates that 75% of fish stocks are at, or have passed the levels of safe exploitation and it isn't getting better. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: KateG Date: 01 May 03 - 04:53 PM How long would it be before cows, sheep, goats, pigs, chickens etc became extinct if we didn't eat them? They don't make great pets, and can no longer survive in the wild. And if you eat dairy but not meat, what happens to the male offspring of the animals that are providing the milk? No annual pregnancy, no milk, and statistically 50% of the offspring will be male. If you can't keep them, it seems unethical not to make full use of the gift of their life. I agree that the modern diet is out of whack, with far too much processed and refined food, and that modern intensive models of animal raising are cruel and wasteful. What we need is to find a balance between animal and vegetable sources of food, and find more ways to encourage sustainable and humane farming. I don't have any good answers, and am still figuring out how to eat. Was lethargic as a vegetarian, constipated on Atkins (tho I did lose weight and felt energetic). Am trying to develop a diet that revolves around whole grains and beans, but has enought protien and fat to provide energy without gaining weight. Am also trying to figure out how to fit in a second 2 mile hike with my dog without quitting my job and starving). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: Mark Clark Date: 01 May 03 - 06:06 PM I remember eschewing catfish because they came from horribly polluted rivers, didn't taste good and were probably dangerous to eat. Now I enjoy catfish several times a year. They are raised on catfish farms, are healthy to eat and, depending on the restaurant, taste great. Inexpensive too. When you fly from St. Louis to New Orleans on a clear day, you'll see catfish farms clear to the horrizon. I'm afraid my diet will continue to be based on taste appeal. I don't eat much red meat but neither am I a vegitarian. I suppose I'll die someday. I thought Redd Fox had a good line, “All the people who exercise and watch what they eat are going to feel really stupid when they're lying in the hospital dying of nothin'.” - Mark |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: GUEST,Sooz(at work) Date: 02 May 03 - 06:36 AM KateG - Beef cattle are not just the males in the milking herd! They are a completely different breed, selectively bred and exploited for their meat. Dairy cattle are produced by artificial insemination which can accurately control the sex of the offspring. (The male sperm are separated out and not used.) As a pupil of mine once wrote in answer to an exam question - this is necessary because the males don't make the right kind of milk! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: Peg Date: 02 May 03 - 11:28 AM LOL! Sooz that is pretty funny. Wonder if that student was trying to be facetious (double entendre wise) or was just completely clueless? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: JennyO Date: 02 May 03 - 02:23 PM "Good health is just a slow way of dying." - Les Barker |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: Sooz Date: 02 May 03 - 03:00 PM Peg - he was a bright lad who got a good grade, I think he knew what he was saying! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: Schantieman Date: 02 May 03 - 03:19 PM In the UK, most dairy cattle are produced by crossing a Friesian cow with a Hereford bull. You can tell the hybrid cows coz they have a white patch (a Hereford feature) at the top of their face. The heifers go on to be good milkers (as good as a pure-bred Friesian?) and the bull calves can be reared for low grade beef - burgers, I suppose. (Proper (i.e. tender & yummy) beef needs proper beef strains like Aberdeen Angus or Charolais). If pure-bred Friesians are used (and I have my doubts about this sex-selection AI business!) the bull calves are slaughtered at or shortly after birth coz they're virtually inedible, and not worth raising. The above is my understanding of the situation, based on approximate academic familiarity with it over the last 20 years or so. I may well be out of date and am quite prepared to be corrected by someone who really knows what they're talking about! Fish stocks have been depleted by overfishing partly for food species, but also for fish to turn into fishmeal for animal feed (for supposedly herbivorous cattle!) and even for fertiliser!! Enjoy your dinner! Steve |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: GUEST,Richard H Date: 02 May 03 - 03:56 PM As a dairy farmer (cows) from 1975-1989 and goat-milk producer, 1989-present, I'm learning a lot here. Never heard that they were sexing semen for dairy animals (although technically it should be possible). We use frozen semen from Canada and get about 50 percent male calves. Dairy breeds, far from being "inedible", produce good meat. I would imagine much of New Zealand's exported beef is culled dairy animals. I was for some years Government Agricultural Officer in charge of Vegetable Research and have never been too keen on cereals and veggies after seeing how much poison has to be poured onto them to keep away the bugs and diseases. It's like someone giving you a drink of water from a bottle that formerly contained poison. You'd hesitate to drink no matter how well it was washed. We often do not even wash off the poisons off veggies; we rely on a safe "harvest after" date. By the way, we in Barbados are in the middle of an awful drought. As a farmer I couldn't grow anything. But my goats eat the leaves off deep-rooted trees in nearby gullies and are in the pink of condition. Of course you might be able to grow fruit trees in those gullies... if you're prepared to kill off the monkeys who live there. I like the monkeys and I like meat. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: GUEST Date: 02 May 03 - 05:37 PM Around here, the calves produced as a result of "freshening" dairy cows seem to be raised for veal. At least that's what I assume is the fate of all the little calves -- both male and female -- tied to dog houses in the barnyards of the local dairy farms each spring. |
